Cyclocross - Lightest "modern" steel cross frame???

Does anyone have recommendations for a fairly lightweight "modern" steel cross frame, that comes stock with a 60cm top-tube? I have given up on looking for a carbon frame that fits, and since I am 220 lbs - it wouldn't matter much anyway!

Have you looked at Kona's CX line? They go quite large.

Lightweight steel can be done. My current race bike is a '05 Lemond Poprad with a Rival build and with race wheels it comes in 18-19lbs. The frame is built with a OX Plat tube set. Look for decent steel and you can get a nice race bike. Sorry, I don't have any specific bike recommendations for you.

Interesting... I have loved my 63cm 1995 Bianchi Veloce road bike with Dedacciai Zero Uno tubing which rides great for my size - but is not exceptionally light. "Deddi Zero Uno - Heavier gauge set designed for exceptionally sturdy frames. Large selection of round tubes." - I guess, I want a well crafted steel frame that is lighter than a Surly Cross Check. Being almost 40 yrs old - I appreciate the "give" of steel over aluminum; but I could be wrong - especially for a race bike.



At your weight the last thing I'd want from a steel bike is low weight. You'll need something strong. If you want strong and light steel is probably your worst choice in frame material. Have you tried any modern aluminum frames? I have two scandium bikes that blow away my previous steel frames. They're much lighter and stiffer and have a smoother ride.
If you really want steel and have the bucks any custom builder could build you something "light" but I bet they try to steer you away from that idea.

You are not wrong about aluminum, it's very harsh on a cross course. My bike is OX platinum with a 59cm head tube. It's the last year Lemond made the Poprad. It rides really well. I believe that the brand that replaced it was Gary Fischer. Same bike different decals. You may want to look there.

If it is hand made, the materials can be specified, in conversation with the builder.

Example: from the looks of them Brent Steelman in California
makes some really nice Cyclocross race bikes in steel.

they will help you choose materials in consideration of your weight too..

I left out that mine is a 55cm. I replaced a Cannondale CX-9 with the Poprad mostly due to fit and being a better all around bike. The CX-9 felt fast but I wanted something I could use as a commuter, distance bike and it was simply too harsh. I'm a few short months away from 40 so these things do matter.

Also remember the old saying; Light, strong or cheap...pick two.

Gunnar CrossHairs
All City Macho Man
Surly Cross-Check
Soma Double Cross
Motobecane Fantom CXX

I've heard the Cross-Check is on the heavier side as I'd guess is the Fantom CXX. And the Gunnar is going to be on the expensive side. I'd go with the Macho Man. I think its being released later this year.

There are some more commuter oriented cross-style steel bikes like the Raleigh Roper (doesn't come in larger than a 57cm t-t), Redline Metro Classic, and Salsa Casserole and Vaya.

My size 60 Soma Double Cross has a 603mm top tube and weighs 23 lbs with Shimano 105.

Perhaps the Raleigh Roper ~ $1500
www.raleighusa.com/bikes/steel-road/roper-12/ (http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/steel-road/roper-12/)

Comes in 58cm top tube not 60cm...

* Nice price for chromoly 631 steel...

The Civilian Vive Le Roi looks like the best option so far:http://www.ridecvln.com/bike-types/cyclocross/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/review-/Civilian-Vive-Le-Roi-Cyclocross-Bike.4375.html

I appreciate the "give" of steel over aluminum; but I could be wrong - especially for a race bike.

Maybe. It all depends on how sensitive you are to ground chatter, and how much you're willing to contend with. I rode a steel frame/fork last year and went with an Alu/carbon setup this year. Yes, there's some additional chatter at the rear-end, but the carbon fork quiets out the front end rather well. I find that the stiffness of the frame has more benefit in power transfer (especially when climbing) than any detriment to overall comfort.

what frame and fork did you end up with?


Maybe. It all depends on how sensitive you are to ground chatter, and how much you're willing to contend with. I rode a steel frame/fork last year and went with an Alu/carbon setup this year. Yes, there's some additional chatter at the rear-end, but the carbon fork quiets out the front end rather well. I find that the stiffness of the frame has more benefit in power transfer (especially when climbing) than any detriment to overall comfort.

Well, I switched gears trying to justify a custom high end steel frame vs a 4130 (welded in Taiwan) frame that wouldn't be much better than the Cross Check that I just sold.

I went ahead and bought a NOS: 60cm 2009 Cannondale CAAD9 CX9 cyclocross frame. The geometry is exactly what I would have ordered custom: a 600mm top-tube and 200mm head-tube. I will install a All-City Nature Boy steel fork instead of carbon due to my heavy 220 lb body weight. Many have mentioned that the CAAD9 have a great ride quality, so I can't wait to find out.

I am fairly confident that other than carbon, this is the lightest frame that would safely hold up to my weight.


2009 - 60cm - CAAD9 GEOMETRY:

Horizontal Top Tube 600mm
Seat Tube Angle 73 deg
Head Tube Angle 73 deg
Chainstay Length 432mm
BB Height 290mm
Wheelbase 1057mm
Trail 59mm
Standover Height 876mm
Head Tube Length 200mm

Thanks again guys for all of your advice - it came down to the geometry and in order to get a 600mm top-tube and 200mm head-tube on a decent steel frame, I would have had to go custom - and I couldn't afford to do that presently. Eventually, I may sell all of my bikes and get a custom frame and just use different wheelsets for cross and road. Someday...

yea- the Gunnar looks to be a sweet ride. Got the C-dale for less than 1/2 (almost 1/3) the cost - and honestly that helped sway the decision. Now with the BB30 requiring new cranks; it may be a wash... I have heard that the C-dale CAAD9 with the wishbone rear-end makes for a fairly forgiving/ but stiff ride - not quite steel smooth though.



Not trying to be picky but a 62 or 64 Gunnar have a 60-ish top tube and 194 to 214 headtube..need the exact 60/200 for sizing??

You should be riding on big tires and low pressures. How much 'give' do you expect a rigid frame to have in comparison? Honestly, in my experience, tires are 95% of the equation.

good point. On my steel Bianchi road bike - I ride 28mm tires at 110 psi - and love the vibration dampening of the steel frame. This C-dale is for cross, and will likely not be used for long road rides with high pressure tires.


You should be riding on big tires and low pressures. How much 'give' do you expect a rigid frame to have in comparison? Honestly, in my experience, tires are 95% of the equation.

good point. On my steel Bianchi road bike - I ride 28mm tires at 110 psi - and love the vibration dampening of the steel frame. This C-dale is for cross, and will likely not be used for long road rides with high pressure tires.


Unless you're pretty heavy (i.e. 275#), this is too high. I often ride tires labeled as 28's that actually measure at 26.5mm. I ride them at 80 psi. True 28's you could probably take down another 10-20 psi.

I completely agree that a steel frame generally reduces the pass-through of vibrations (compared to AL), but the effect of tire pressure is much, much greater. When you also consider that a lower pressure may actually be better in terms of rolling resistance (unless you're riding a velodrome or a billiard table), it might be a win-win. Try it, you'll be surprised.

I want to hear more about how lower pressure helps with better rolling resistance. I mainly do it to avoid pinch flats do to my weight. Glad to hear 80psi is usable though - that is much more comfy!


Unless you're pretty heavy (i.e. 275#), this is too high. I often ride tires labeled as 28's that actually measure at 26.5mm. I ride them at 80 psi. True 28's you could probably take down another 10-20 psi.

I completely agree that a steel frame generally reduces the pass-through of vibrations (compared to AL), but the effect of tire pressure is much, much greater. When you also consider that a lower pressure may actually be better in terms of rolling resistance (unless you're riding a velodrome or a billiard table), it might be a win-win. Try it, you'll be surprised.

From high end steel to 4130 Cross check the frame weight equals what, +1lb? Fork can be changed on any bike so consider that for weight reduction.

You went Alloy so you probably saved 2 lb over steel but then added a lb back on the fork. At 220 youre not "too heavy" for a carbon fork either, but youll be happy with what you chose I'm sure.
Have fun!

On 'rough' surfaces, a rigid tire will cause the whole bike to move up and down. This makes for a lot of rolling resistance. Now 'rough' is a moving target. Pro's race Roubaix at pressures down to the mid-50's. Of course, they are light and riding tubulars, so they don't worry too much about pinch-flats. It does show where their priorities are, though.

Have you ever actually gotten a pinch flat on the road? I've gotten exactly 1 and it was because I inadvertently hit a really rough part of a train track crossing. I think they really aren't too common.

Do me a favor. Drop your pressures to 90psi front and 100psi rear for a ride or 2, then report back.

what frame and fork did you end up with?

I went with a 2011 RL Conquest Pro; the Alu/CF version before the 2012 full carbon model came out.

Have a pretty light steel TIG welded Pinarello Cross frame,
would shave a little off
if it had a lighter uni-crown fork rather than a cast crown,
but that is minor.

It replaced an AlAn cross super..

Most competition bike frames, regardless of material used, are designed by manufacturers for riders that are between 145 lbs and 170lbs in mind, because people that do compete in events are, on the average, around that weight range. This is one of the reasons that when a 230 lbs customer tells a serious custom wheel builder that they want him or her to build them a set of "bomb proof" light wheels that they can put on a light road or off road bike, if that wheel builder is honest, he or she will usually tell them to get their weight down to at least 170 lbs, and give them a call back. A lightweight frame will start behaving unpredictably when you start putting 200lbs or more weight on it, and even more if that bike then has to take on gravel or broken pavement. Some manufacturers have started addressing this issue with bikes that have a beefier set of top tube and down tubes. Waterford Precision Cycles, for example, also makes the Gunnar brand of bicycles, which in turn has a lineup of cyclocross frames. They have their original CX frame, the Crosshairs, with their regular OS2 Air Hardening tube set. They have their new disk based competition frame, the Hyper X. And finally they have their heavy duty frame, the Fastlane, which has a beefier sset of the OS2 Air Hardening top tubes and down tubes. Not only can they accommodate a heavier rider, they can also double as a lightweight touring machine if set up properly. The downside with the Fastlane, is that the beefier tube set make the bike a little heavier. But what you trade in weight, you gain in pure comfort enjoyment and resilience.

Wolfsbane: Thanks man, I didn't know that (170 lb. cutoff), thanks for the info. Does this mean the Cannondale Cyclocross 5/ CAAD9, is under-designed for my weight? I don't want to snap an aluminum frame.

I came very close to pulling the trigger on a Gunnar Crosshairs, thinking that because it is steel it would hold up well to my 220 lbs. I didn't even know that the Fastlane ( http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/fast-lane/ ) was a cross bike. Does Gunnar talk more about what their official weight ranges and tube material/ strengths are? I would imaging that a 68cm Crosshairs would be a bit stronger/ heavier gauge than the 54cm Crosshairs, even for racing (Have you seen a rider that weighs 170 fit on a 68cm bike?). My guess is that even for Gunnar's race bikes when they get to sizes over 60cm they beef up the tubes - I would like to find out.

Also, this makes me reconsider the Civilian Vive Le Roi because it uses 4130 steel which even though heavier than Reynolds 853/ Tange Platinum, my understanding is that it is inherently stronger. http://www.ridecvln.com/bike-types/cyclocross/

So, if I need a beefier $975 Gunnar Fastlane frame for my weight, I may just spring for a $1200 Civilian Vive Le Roi, complete.


Most competition bike frames, regardless of material used, are designed by manufacturers for riders that are between 145 lbs and 170lbs in mind, because people that do compete in events are, on the average, around that weight range. This is one of the reasons that when a 230 lbs customer tells a serious custom wheel builder that they want him or her to build them a set of "bomb proof" light wheels that they can put on a light road or off road bike, if that wheel builder is honest, he or she will usually tell them to get their weight down to at least 170 lbs, and give them a call back. A lightweight frame will start behaving unpredictably when you start putting 200lbs or more weight on it, and even more if that bike then has to take on gravel or broken pavement. Some manufacturers have started addressing this issue with bikes that have a beefier set of top tube and down tubes. Waterford Precision Cycles, for example, also makes the Gunnar brand of bicycles, which in turn has a lineup of cyclocross frames. They have their original CX frame, the Crosshairs, with their regular OS2 Air Hardening tube set. They have their new disk based competition frame, the Hyper X. And finally they have their heavy duty frame, the Fastlane, which has a beefier sset of the OS2 Air Hardening top tubes and down tubes. Not only can they accommodate a heavier rider, they can also double as a lightweight touring machine if set up properly. The downside with the Fastlane, is that the beefier tube set make the bike a little heavier. But what you trade in weight, you gain in pure comfort enjoyment and resilience.

Awesome, thanks for the confirmation on the CADD9 - I will go ahead and build it up ( I was worried since someone told me it dented easily - that it may not be stout enough for 6'-4" / 220lbs). I still plan on using the All-City Nature Boy steel fork with the frame - which is heavy in comparison to the CAAD9 - but I am OK with it, since my wheels (w/clinchers) are nothing special, and I am putting a BB30 adapter in to use standard Shimano 105 cranks. So overall it is not going to be super lightweight.



I'm bigger than you, OP, and have a Caad9 CX that I love. Exact dimensions you're looking for, great handling/performance, and not a lot of $$.


I build steel bikes and have another cross bike that I love, but the Cannondale is so damn practical and fits well so I grab it pretty frequently for dirt road rides.


PS I have no concerns about the fork strength of the stock fork, but if I did I'd slap an Enve on it and never give it another thought.

Interesting... I have loved my 63cm 1995 Bianchi Veloce road bike with Dedacciai Zero Uno tubing which rides great for my size - but is not exceptionally light. "Deddi Zero Uno - Heavier gauge set designed for exceptionally sturdy frames. Large selection of round tubes." - I guess, I want a well crafted steel frame that is lighter than a Surly Cross Check. Being almost 40 yrs old - I appreciate the "give" of steel over aluminum; but I could be wrong - especially for a race bike.

did you know they made a similar cross frameset? mine has a 59cm tt.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/sscx/DSC01128.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/sscx/DSC01137.jpg

No, what is the model called - and what size year is yours? I would need the next size up if the make it.

Was it the Bianchi Reparto Corsa "Cross Concept"?:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bianchi/bianchi-reparto-corsa-cross-bike-114312-post1301400.html#post1301400

That would be cool to have a big brother to my road bike!



did you know they made a similar cross frameset? mine has a 59cm tt.

No, what is the model called - and what size year is yours? I would need the next size up if the make it.

i believe it was sold as a frameset only somewhere between 1998 and 2000. the only designations on mine is bianchi chromo lite reparto corse.

i absolutely love mine. it isnt extremely light but it rides very nice. the semi horizontal dropouts also allow me to swap between a 39x18 and 42x19 ss setups without changing the chain length or brake setup. (it can be used with derailleurs as well)

i should also mention that there were some earlier ones that use a beautiful lugged frame. i know i saw one listed as a 60cm 1997 a while back.

all the reviews and reports that i have read on the welded version are very good with the exception of the fork. i saw several comments that the fork was not as durable as the frame. i am guessing this is why mine came with a curt goodrich fork. who by the way makes the best looking cross bikes ever.

http://www.curtgoodrich.com/images/hp_gallery.jpg

Received the Cannondale (CAAD9 CX9 Cyclocross 5 '09) back from the mechanics at my LBS (Joes Bike Shop - Baltimore) last week, who did an awesome job w/ the build.


I have only done 2 training rides so far, but it has a really great ride - loving it (even with the other mish-mash of parts, heavy wheels and steel front fork).

I want to hear more about how lower pressure helps with better rolling resistance. I mainly do it to avoid pinch flats do to my weight. Glad to hear 80psi is usable though - that is much more comfy!I have been riding Bicycle Quarterly's recommendation of 15% tire drop (http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf) for the last 6,000 miles and have never pinch flatted. If you stay in this range, you will not have problems unless you hit something really sharp really hard, and then I would be worried about bigger problems than pinch flats.

My recent budget C'dale build now that it is dialed-in after a half dozen rides. I am loving it, smoothest aluminum frame that I have ridden. Many "cheap" heavier components - chosen for their strength (I am 6'-4" 225#) - so far, so good.

Frame
2009 CAAD9 CX9 Cyclocross 5
Size: 60cm
Frame Construction: TIG-welded
Frame Tubing Material: CAAD9 Optimo Taper Butted Alloy
Fork Brand & Model: All City; Nature Boy
Fork Material: Steel

Components
Brakeset: Shimano CX-70 Catilevers
Shift Levers: late 1990's Campy Record Ergo – 8 speed
Front Derailleur: Shimano CX-70
Rear Derailleur: Campy Veloce
Crankset: Shimano CX-50 Compact Double, 46/36 teeth
Pedals: Crank Brothers - Eggbeaters
Bottom Bracket: Shimano 105 with a FSA BB30 adapter to English threaded
BB Shell Width: 68mm
Rear Cogs: 8-speed, 11 - 32 teeth
Seatpost: FSA Carbon, 27.2mm diameter
Saddle: Specialized Avatar Gel - 130
Handlebar: Salsa Cowbell 3 - 46cm
Bar Wrap: Salsa Gel Cork Bar Tape
Handlebar Stem: FSA

Wheels
Hubs Shimano Deore
Rims Alex DH19
Tires 700 x 35c Continental Speed King

Not bad, not bad. :) Those are my favorite shifters ever. My bianchi is being converted to a commuter. It now has 105 aero pedals with toe clips and I am mounting full fenders.

For racing you may find that with a 36 tooth small chainring the 32 tooth cog is bigger than you need: You may appreciate the closer spacing that an 11-27 or 11-28 gives you but race it a couple times then decide.
Looks like a fine build.
Brent

Looking at a Gunnar vs Soma myself right now. A local bike builder says it wil be under 20lbs with Rival gear and discs - not that weight is my primary concern. Approx $2500 for that bike complete (slightly more for Gunnar vs Soma). Opinions on the two appreciated too.

Moots Ti bike - $5000

In between is Ibis carbon for $3500

Thoughts?

Will do, good advice.


For racing you may find that with a 36 tooth small chainring the 32 tooth cog is bigger than you need: You may appreciate the closer spacing that an 11-27 or 11-28 gives you but race it a couple times then decide.
Looks like a fine build.
Brent

Thanks - I run these 1990's Ergopower version 1's on all 3 of my bikes - road, drop bar MTB, and now CX. These are very tough shifters, I have kept my 1995 Bianchi road bike in an unconditioned garage for 17 years, and the lube is still good (just add a few spritzes of wet lube every year) meanwhile, I have had 2 newer sets of Shimano brifters dry out on me. I have hit a tree with a high speed direct hit to the right Ergo brifter on my MTB without failure. Love these old shifters, my LBS mechanic rolls his eyes at me though with setting up 8 speed 20 year old+ technology! http://www.tearsforgears.com/2009/12/ergopower-1992-in-italiano.html



Not bad, not bad. :) Those are my favorite shifters ever. My bianchi is being converted to a commuter. It now has 105 aero pedals with toe clips and I am mounting full fenders.

find out what tube-set they used to build the frame from..
wall thicknesses wil suggest relative weight
8 - 6 - 8 , less than 9 -7 - 9.

TIG weigh less than Lugs.

Of course wet Mud weighs a lot,
so get 2,
and have someone in the Pits to clean off the crud,
and hand up the clean one .
with a well choreographed flow to not lose time.