Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Getting Annoyed w/ My LBS

God love em for selling me a bicycle 6 months ago. I have been in there once a month to have the wheels placed back in true every month at their cost. The time before last I took it in for busted spokes. The mechanic working that day tells me, he can get me a set of tandem wheels. Super strong, etc etc etc for 200 dollars for the set. I should of jumped on it. This last go round they started flexing and rubbing on the brake pads. So i've had enough and took it to them to order a stronger wheel set. The stock wheels on my Giant Sedona are supposed to be tough. Just not tough enough for my fat butt.

So I walk in the other day and explain the problem and what is going on. I guess they are so used to dealing with skinny kids and beach cruisers I was speaking Greek. They get the owner who is SUPER NICE and very experienced. After talking with the owner of the shop he recommends a set of DH wheels with upgraded hubs, 40 spoke count, DT Swiss spokes, so on and so on. Tells me he can put a set on for 250. I tell him, "Absolutely let's do it!".

I get a phone call yesterday telling me he can't make it happen, the cost isn't what I was quoted for a strong set of wheels but he can do 1 tandem wheel for the rear for 250 dollars. Seriously?! I'm so freaking annoyed right now I just want my bike back. I wish the local tech college put on a wheel building class and a bicycle mechanic class. I'd rather learn how to build my own wheels and just invest the money into that so I know it's done right and I'm not getting railed.

The bicycle scene here is HUGE because of the colleges and the beaches and tourist. I just wish bicycle shops knew how to take care of big dudes. ..

Just how heavy are you? Up to around 300 pounds a 36h wheel should be able to be built that will hold up for you. I'm not surprised to hear that they can't build a 40h tandem set <$250. 40h components aren't the most common or cheapest.

Depending upon how many spokes your current hubs have, a rebuild with new spokes and/or rim may be sufficient.

I can understand your frustration. The same is what drove me to start building my own. So far, so good, on that front. If you are mechanically inclined and patient wheel building is not that difficult with a few basic tools. At the top of my list for building clyde wheels would be a tension meter and spoke prep or locking nipples.

I am near 400 pounds. My bike shop put together a wheelset for me with Mavic A719 rims, 36h, DT Swiss spokes, Deore XT hubs. Over 2000 miles later they are still as true as the day they were built.

I don't believe 40h wheels are necessary, 36 clearly does the job for me. I believe the rims are tandem rims, so you may want to consider those.

A New hand built custom Rear wheel, premium components for $250
is Not outrageous..

the other example may have been lower tier components , machine built,

but as specifics are not stated IDK.

I shouldn't of been surprised on the price and change in price. I agree with everyone on that point, but damn I wish my LBS would of just been upfront and honest with me. They are a hour drive easy from me so taking my bike to them every time something goes wrong is growing really old. I honestly believe i'm going to start learning about wheel building and truing and just do it out of my garage and build my own wheels and learn how to do my own repairs.

Not the easy or the cheap route but I think i'll enjoy it.

If your budget conscious, I would just look online for a 36 spoke set of wheels....look for touring or similar wheels.

While they won't be hand built, I think you can find something that is a heck of a lot better than what you have for inside your budget.

Look online 250 +/- a few bucks is the average for a single rear wheel
http://www.amazon.com/Handspun-Shimano-Tandem-Velocity-Silver/dp/B0028N30N6/ref=sr_1_10?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1341969049&sr=1-10&keywords=tandem+wheels


much cheaper in 36h

http://www.amazon.com/Handspun-Sport-Series-Rear-Wheel/dp/B004JKIGEY/ref=sr_1_45?s=bikes-scooters&ie=UTF8&qid=1341970665&sr=1-45&keywords=road+rear+wheel+36h

$250 is kinda steep for a 26" freewheel hub wheel. Especially since it's going on a $320 bike. I have a Sedona and from the factory the wheels took a lot of work to get them to stay true and hold an even tension. Being that the LBS didn't know how much a wheel cost to build or at least how much they needed to charge puts them in the less than knowlegable catagory.

I bought my son the $2500 wheels he wanted for Ironman Canada.
Then he achieved his personal worst.
I saw $2500 fly out the window.

The problem isnt your wheels.

The problem is that the mechanic your LBS has doesnt know how to build a wheel properly, and tension the spokes correctly. And as such they go out of true. Which they would do with even a light rider who rides hard.

A properly built and tensioned set of wheels will not come out of true unless they are abused, potholed, jumped, curbed, or some other massive force is applied to them.

So this LBS, instead of admitting that they cant properly build wheels, is insisting on trying to sell you overbuilt super heavy wheels to work around the problem, rather then resolve it.

My suggestion...find a new LBS.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as what Buck said, but proper wheel building is extremely important. You can buy the best possible components and the wheel can still fail if improperly built. The flip side is that there are mechanical limits to every wheel, no matter how well built. I rode decent entry level 32-spoke wheels for a year and popped a few spokes, always on the back wheel. Sometimes I could trace it to a rough patch of road, etc, other times I'd just hear a *ping* and the rim would start tapping the brake pad. The LBS checked the wheel and trued and retensioned each time and all would be good for a month or two. A very well respected wheel builder at the shop set me up with a 36-spoke 4-cross on an LX hub with a touring rim for under $200 and I haven't popped a spoke or had to true the wheel since.

My take from this is that it is definately a combination of quality/appropriate components and a skilled wheel builder. If either is lacking, you are going to have problems.

Have them put on the Swiss DT spokes. They did that for my facotry rim and all was solved.

But to be frank, you only need the rear wheel to be strong. The front can stay as is.

I'm an ex-clyde so I'm not bashing overweight people at all.

If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.

I've dealt with some ****ty shops in my time, there are places I avoid like the plague. However, at some point, the responsibility of educating yourself on buying a proper wheel type for your weight/mileage/terrain/riding style falls on the purchaser not the seller.

Imagine how the bike shop feels about constantly having to give away free service because of buyer ignorance.

You can teach yourself how to properly tension and true a rim by watching Youtube videos or park tools also has some maintenance videos.

I'm an ex-clyde so I'm not bashing overweight people at all.

If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.


I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.

I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.

+1. 40 spoke tandem wheels, for example, are good to well over 400 lbs. We have 9000 miles on ours and they are as true today as when bought. 40h is overkill I would think for a single, but proper 36h wheels should be fine if not abused.

If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.

I've dealt with some ****ty shops in my time, there are places I avoid like the plague. However, at some point, the responsibility of educating yourself on buying a proper wheel type for your weight/mileage/terrain/riding style falls on the purchaser not the seller.

Imagine how the bike shop feels about constantly having to give away free service because of buyer ignorance.


Most people go to a bike shop (and usually pay a premium to do so) because the bike shop is supposed to be the expert in the relationship, not the customer. While I certainly think it's fool-hearty to not educate yourself at least a little bit, I very much disagree that "falls on the purchaser not the seller" is entirely correct. A first-class shop (of any product or service) will not sell something that is bound to fail for a particular use. If that shop sold something that wasn't proper for the OP, then that is their problem to fix if they value their reputation.

Example: I have a remodeling business and a fair bit of word-of-mouth traffic (that is my only means of advertising, BTW) and from time to time I'll get somebody that wants me to do something that I think is not a good idea. Do I take the money and cross my fingers, or do I try to educate the customer as to why I think it's a bad idea and decline the work? Because I value my reputation in the community, I never purposefully take on a project that I don't think is a good idea and then blame the inevitable failure on the customer. I am the expert in this situation, and they came to me for my expertise.

This doesn't sound like a custom wheel build. It sounds like machine built wheels. The bike shop didn't "build them". So I have no idea why they're being faulted for an "inferior" build on wheel set that is probably distributed and sold in the thousands and is rarely an issue.

And, since these are probably machine built wheels, try going back to the manufacturer and getting them to fix the problem>>> good luck with that.

Wolfwerx - Imagine the customer who complains to you that the room you built them has holes in all of the walls, because their sons are using the room as an in door shooting gallery or that's the room with the batting cage. Are you going to go back and fix this walls everytime they call, because you didn't ask the purpose for the room and they didn't tell you or ask that the walls are bullet proof?

Under your scenario, I'd expect you to replace those walls everytime they call.

Wolfwerx - Imagine the customer who complains to you that the room you built them has holes in all of the walls, because their sons are using the room as an in door shooting gallery or that's the room with the batting cage. Are you going to go back and fix this walls everytime they call, because you didn't ask the purpose for the room and they didn't tell you or ask that the walls are bullet proof?

Under your scenario, I'd expect you to replace those walls everytime they call.


That is a logical fallacy.
If the drywall fell off the studs because I used finish nails rather than drywall screws, then I would be on the hook for repair because that is not something that the customer should have needed to specify. Under my scenario, and in real life: I fix my mistakes, as common sense dictates.

More to the point: If the OP is riding his bike for its intended purpose, that the shop sold it to him for, and he is not abusing it (which I don't know this, he doesn't say that he's taking it off any sweet jumps or whatever) then it was the shop's fault for selling him an inappropriate product. I mean, let's face it, Clydes don't look skinny. The sales guy should have broached the subject of weight and wheels and determined if those stock wheels were appropriate to the OP. It's their fault that they didn't mitigate their liability.

And I'm not suggesting that the shop has to fix them for free, forever. If it were my bike, I would be OK if they either credited me towards a new wheel build, or offered to buy back, or something else that left me at least at break-even.

Edited to add: Further, I've seen/heard of shops that go back to the manufacturer to have them take responsibility for things like this. Again, it depends on what kind of reputation the shop wants to have.

I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.


erhm... if I'm reading this right they didn't build his wheels... they've just maintained the factory machine built wheels.


To the OP: sometimes they try and help, and that bites them in the ass... they tried to quote you a good price cause they were being nice to you... and realize that you've had so many problems with your wheels. Unless blatantly lied to by the LBS maybe you should try and look at it with a positive undertone rather than the "they're trying to screw me" undertone.

Also, being a heavier person means that stock wheels 99% of the time are not going to work out for you... at least the rear. The sooner you accept that and have a wheel built for you, the happier you'll be.

erhm... if I'm reading this right they didn't build his wheels... they've just maintained the factory machine built wheels.


Fair enough, I missed that part. But I still stand by my... stance. He's been in once a month for 6 months to get them fixed. The shop should have noticed that something was wrong after the 2nd month and moved to rectify the problem.

As for the price, my perfect wheels were built for roughly $250 combined, so $250 for one seems a bit over the top.

Fair enough, I missed that part. But I still stand by my... stance. He's been in once a month for 6 months to get them fixed. The shop should have noticed that something was wrong after the 2nd month and moved to rectify the problem.

As for the price, my perfect wheels were built for roughly $250 combined, so $250 for one seems a bit over the top.


As to your comment there, I agree... My LBS asked to see the bike after having trued the rear wheel a couple times... I brought it in, knowing nothing was wrong and then we talked about building wheels... and they're giving me discounts to build my wheels for me cause I've been a good customer and the stockers just didn't work out for me.

So, they're building me a set of 32h dt swiss 350s on DT spokes, brass nipples, and DT r585 wheels for $680. Not bad, I know I could buy all the components online and build them myself cheaper... but I don't mind supporting these guys... and they'll stand behind this set of wheels just like my stockers, and help me out.

My LBS does a much better job at CS than the OP's and they have been in business for years and likely will for many more. Last year when my Schwinn popped a second spoke in a row they sold me a replacement wheel. About a month later I started popping spokes on the front as well and they sold me a replacement front. After a few months the back popped a spoke, then another. At that time the owner decided that they sold me a wheel not up to the task for me and I was down to below 260 lbs. I was however riding over 400 miles per month by then. They warenteed the wheel with full value for a Velocity hand built wheel. Whether they recooped their costs from the first wheel manufacturer or not they gained a customer through good service. By guesstimating based on retail markup even if the shop ate the wheel it likely did not cost them much over $20, and for that they gained a dedicated customer. Right before that I purchased a bmx bike for my 6yo.

Then last winter I had a friend who wanted a new custom kitchen and guess what one of my other hobbies is..... He bought me a new bike and I built him a kitchen full of oak cabinets. I think he got one hell of a bargain because it took me a bunch longer than I guessed it would have. Of course my new bike came from my LBS. My new ride had issues right out the gate with the rear wheel. It would not stay tensioned. After a few months the LBS got Specialized to warrenty it with a hand build upgrade.

Guess where I went when my oldest son became serious about cycling this spring to get him a bike to replace his worn out mt. bike? Good customer service pays huge dividends to those who provide it. It is simply a matter of good business.

OP find a LBS with better service or a good local wheel builder or learn to build your own. I'd not return to your current LBS. If the owner misjudged the cost of a strong wheel by such a large amount I'd question his skills elsewhere, but that is the way I roll. However $250. for a hand build is not unreasonable IMHO, if you want one with a high spoke count and strong enough to last.

As a 300 pound clyde, who rides hard and fast, and happens to also ride on a 32 spoke rear wheel (2 cross drive, radial non drive), i can honestly say without a single amount of doubt, that overbuilt, over spoked, heavy wheels with are done entirely to circumvent the problem of poor wheel building, improper tension, and poor maintenance on the part of the owner...particularly in the early life of the wheel.

We are heavy enough, why drag the extra weight?

I know it sounds absurd, especially based on how most of the people here on this board feel about such things, but try to find a shop that caters more to racing, and high performance cycles. There is a greater chance that their mechanic will likely know how to properly build and tension a wheel, as he will be more likely to deal with exacting high demand cyclists that require perfect equipment. Also most of the higher end shops will usually have spoke tension gauges, and special tools to help aide in wheel building.

Then once you find such an LBS, make sure you take your bike back regularly to have them give it a once over, and adjust any small fiddly things they find in the process. That way you can keep your wheels in good shape, and enjoy riding much more regularly.

I know it sounds absurd, especially based on how most of the people here on this board feel about such things, but try to find a shop that caters more to racing, and high performance cycles. There is a greater chance that their mechanic will likely know how to properly build and tension a wheel, as he will be more likely to deal with exacting high demand cyclists that require perfect equipment. Also most of the higher end shops will usually have spoke tension gauges, and special tools to help aide in wheel building.

Then once you find such an LBS, make sure you take your bike back regularly to have them give it a once over, and adjust any small fiddly things they find in the process. That way you can keep your wheels in good shape, and enjoy riding much more regularly.


I really wish I could endorse this suggestion. But, it simply doesn't work that way in a lot of places. My experience has been that racing oriented shops with 145lb mechanics simply don't understand why, what normally works for them doesn't work for a 250-300lb'er. You would think that they would be anal retentive about tension balancing, etc. But, often times they aren't and their experience has proven to them that their approach is adequate. What "special tools" do expect these shops have? On this, I am genuinely curious.

How frequently would you consider reasonable for regular servicing?

if you need 700c wheels - I have had good luck with rocky mtn bikes on ebay.. take a look at this one.. XT hubs are 135mm spaced so make sure they will fit..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mavic-A119-Shimano-XT-T780-Touring-Road-700c-Wheelset-36H-/200790634838?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec00df156

I really wish I could endorse this suggestion. But, it simply doesn't work that way in a lot of places. My experience has been that racing oriented shops with 145lb mechanics simply don't understand why, what normally works for them doesn't work for a 250-300lb'er. You would think that they would be anal retentive about tension balancing, etc. But, often times they aren't and their experience has proven to them that their approach is adequate. What "special tools" do expect these shops have? On this, I am genuinely curious.

How frequently would you consider reasonable for regular servicing?

There are more people racing then just 145 pound roadies. Let us not forget that "clyde" was first used as a classification for racing. Not as a politically correct way to say "over weight".

Most shops that deal with CycloCross will know a thing or two about building bomb proof lightweight wheels. If they do Mountain Bike, they will have a pretty good idea as well. Though, to be fair, most mountain guys overbuild their wheels a little too much. But, i digress.

Of course there will always be exceptions to the rules when it comes to what shops do what better. I have had a race centric shop perform the WORST service on my bike ever. Sadly, this place also has good prices on gear, so i still shop there, but i will never let them touch my bike again.
And another local shop that caters more to urban and commuter bikes, not only didnt understand good wheel building habits (i.e. using extra heavy components to compensate for poor build craftsmanship), but proceeded to lecture me about how race bikes are worse for the environment then most cars, and i should be ashamed to have carbon of any kind on my bike, because the glues are bad, and why difference does it make cause youre too big to notice anyway. Yeah...enjoy your granola hippie. I dont send ANYONE there.

The shop i go too is owned by two racers, both of whom are probably close to 200 pounds combined...on a tandem with bags. The main mechanic they have has a strong cyclocross and downhill mountain background, and their other mechanic races BMX full time. All of them have worked on my bike, and all of them have never steered me wrong, or given me any cause for concern on what they recommended, or in explaining what they did, and why. In most cases they go above and beyond. And now i am on a first name basis with all of them. I have for sure lucked out, but i refuse to believe that this is the ONLY shop like that in the United States.


As far as tools used goes, most places have a simple Park Tool truing stand, and a finger operation spoke wrench. And just because the wheels spins in round, and straight, they think thats "good enough". More often then not, by not properly checking the entire wheel as a whole unit, the tension is often very lopsided. So as the wheel rotates, a slack tensioned spokes begins to fatigue, and eventually snaps.
One of the owners of the shop is a professional wheel builder, and builds and services wheels for professional race teams. He swears by the spoke tension tool. He regularly pontificates about how if you are not using a spoke tension tool, you might as well buy your wheels from Wal-Mart. He also uses a dishing tool, not simply relying on the stand for dish centering. And he will also use, on occasion, a spoke wrench with an inch ounce deflection meter to help in the initial setup of tension on the spokes. There is also an order to how you tension based on the lacing type, and the rim and spoke type. Obviously thats not a tool, but an educational, and time thing. But, the one thing he does that i have never seen anyone else do, is get out a pen and paper, and start writing down tension numbers for spokes, and the order of tightening. So the whole wheel is trued uniformly, and evenly.

This shop has rebuilt every set of wheels i own, and they ride fantastically after they have given them a once over. And the continuing maintenance is minimal at best.
Infact, one of my original wheels for my bike, that got destroyed in an accident, didnt fail at the point of impact. At the point of impact there is a little flatening in the rim hook lip, and a little S bend deformation. However, the wheel was so evenly tensioned, that energy being what it is and following the path of least resistance, buckled the pinned join of the rim, and split the pins out of the rim, and folded the wheel at that point, which was about 45 degrees rear ward of the impact, and not at the point of the impact. And that was on a radial laced 28h front wheel. A wheel that most here seem to think would fold in two from a clyde even looking at it.

As for maintenance, i take my wheels in every 500-750 miles. More often then not they are not out of true, but the spoke gauge usually shows a couple of spokes have vibrated themselves a little loose, or perhaps bound a little tight. So it gets readjusted, ridden around the block, and then re tested with the spoke tension gauge to make sure all is well after the wheel has been under load.

No matter how it works out though, im a 300 pound clyde riding on a pair of Mavic Ksyriums. Which should be IMPOSSIBLE according to most people here. So either my scale is WAY off, or they are doing something very right.

Going over the whole thread it seems that the questions is:

after buying a bike at a LBS, where they saw the buyer and knew the buyers weight and hopefully riding style and subsequently there are ongoing wheel issues what is reasonable to expect from the shop?

there are some things I haven't figured out from the thread like OP's weight, exact bike, wheel specs and riding style that may have bearing.

It seems to me that the first thing a shop could/should do after several wheel issues is to completely untension all spokes and retension and true. This is labor which is expensive to the shop, but could resolve the issues. The shop could offer to swap out the spokes for high quality stainless also, as spoke quality is more of an issue than rim or hub and once you break one spoke, the extra stress until that spoke is fixed will almost guarantee future issues unless you swap all the spokes.

Offering a deal on a new wheel or wheelset is another option, but in a way this feels like a workaround if the shop wasn't upfront with saying just to note because of your size, riding style you may have issues and might need to swap wheels out in the future.

For what it is worth I am 273 (was up to 285....it is starting to work yeah) I run 32h sun cr18 rims on deore hubs on my commuter/utility. When I first got the wheels (via ebay) I had some spoke breaking issues, especially on the back I rebuilt the wheels, using a tension meter (first wheel build) and have not had a problme since. My road bike is 32h Velocity Deep v with ultegra hubs and double butted stainless spokes.....built the wheels (but had my local wheel guru do a fine tune) and again no problems. So having a hugely overbuilt wheel may not be needed, depending on your size

There are more people racing then just 145 pound roadies. Let us not forget that "clyde" was first used as a classification for racing. Not as a politically correct way to say "over weight".

......

Of course there will always be exceptions to the rules when it comes to what shops do what better. I have had a race centric shop perform the WORST service on my bike ever. .........
And another local shop that caters more to urban and commuter bikes, not only didnt understand good wheel building habits (i.e. using extra heavy components to compensate for poor build craftsmanship), ...........

The shop i go too is owned by two racers, both of whom are probably close to 200 pounds combined...on a tandem with bags. The main mechanic they have has a strong cyclocross and downhill mountain background, and their other mechanic races BMX full time. ....... I have for sure lucked out, but i refuse to believe that this is the ONLY shop like that in the United States.


As far as tools used goes, most places have a simple Park Tool truing stand, and a finger operation spoke wrench. ..........
One of the owners of the shop is a professional wheel builder, and builds and services wheels for professional race teams. He swears by the spoke tension tool. ........ He also uses a dishing tool, not simply relying on the stand for dish centering. And he will also use, on occasion, a spoke wrench with an inch ounce deflection meter to help in the initial setup of tension on the spokes. ........ But, the one thing he does that i have never seen anyone else do, is get out a pen and paper, and start writing down tension numbers for spokes, and the order of tightening.


As for maintenance, i take my wheels in every 500-750 miles. .........

No matter how it works out though, im a 300 pound clyde riding on a pair of Mavic Ksyriums. Which should be IMPOSSIBLE according to most people here. So either my scale is WAY off, or they are doing something very right.

Edited to some of the salient points. And not interested in picking a fight so much as pointing out that, by your own admission, "you've gotten lucky" in finding the shop you have.

You mention exceptions to the "rule" but then point out 2 shops that while caring have failed you and 1 great success story. I too am sure that is not the only great shop in the USA. There are others. It's just a painful process to sort through the shops in a new city and find the one that will provide that service. And, frequently, it's not the most obvious one. I've lived 6 cities over the course of my riding career and each of the "best" "wheelsmiths" worked at shops with very different character to them. One was a little Italian guy with your "racing shop". One was a hippiesque bunch in a converted wooden shack that were largely mtb and touring oriented. One was a dedicated "wheelbuilder" working out of his garage for many of the major shops in the area. And one was a start up shop with an excellent owner/mechanic who really cared and listened, but, still occassionally got it wrong. My point being, that looking for a "race" oriented shop does not necessarily improve ones chances of finding excellent wheel service. Some of the "race" shops around here are very into selling "wheel systems" and encouraging you to throw them away or flog them on the i-net, then buy another set when they're done.

And, there are many places that plain and simply aren't blessed with more than one or two choices with regard to LBS to choose from.



With regard to tools. Yep, stand, wrench, tension meter, we'd already discussed. A dishing tool we hadn't. But, if properly adjusted a TS-2 probably provides as much or more consistancy than alot of frames out there. Check a few frames the next time you get a chance to install several rear wheels, most are either a little loose or little tight. Either way, the centering in any particular frame is frequently unique to that frame. If you don't believe me, ask your race shop about it. I bet they "smile" before telling you, "oh no, quality frames, like the ones we sell, are always perfect." Paper and pencil, check. I prefer my laptop spreadsheet, but to each his own and hardly "special". The only real new or "special" thing you've mentioned there is this "spoke torque wrench". I would be very curious to see this. My experience has been that there are far too many variables effecting the friction on an individual nipple to use torque as any sort of a gauge for spoke tension. We building really is a reasonably simple craft. Even the French can master it:-)

So many things are about expectations. You're happy with your Ksyriums and servicing them on a 500-750 mile basis. For me, the need to have a set of wheels serviced once a month at a cost of $25-30 per wheel is completely unacceptable. I would like to be able to ride my primary daily wheels 2500-5000 miles between services. That equates to once or twice per year for me. If you're happy with your Ksyriums and that sort of maintenance frequency, I can see why you would think that 32h, 3x, v section wheels are overkill. But, to those of us who have a different expectation, they are anything but. It's not dissimilliar to a friend's racing cars, which get a complete oil/filter change and service after every weekend that they are used, versus, most of us having a daily driver that doesn't require nor warrant such frequent service.

All of this in a thread about an entry level hybrid. The owner of which, just needs a rear wheel that will stay true for him.

Not going to bother to quote because it should be obvious who i am talking to...
I am in no way offended by any meaningful discussion, be it in line with my viewpoint or not. Good discussions with differing opinions dont have to be heated, and the differences of opinions while completely contradictory, are still capable of educating both parties involved provided they are open minded enough and willing to learn. So it wont turn into an argument...unless you really want it to.


I do agree that not everyone has the option of going to multiple shops to find the ones that do things better then another. I also realize that not all race oriented shops are going to have the best mechanics either. However i made those statements for a couple of reasons.
One is that some people dont go outside of the shop they purchased their bike from. Be it for some sense of obligation because they bought their bike there, or because they are afraid of voiding their warranty. Neither of those things should stop them from branching out to other shops. And searching to find what shops do what better can go a long way to making your riding experience much better.
Recommending a race oriented shop is purely for a starting point. In most all of my searches through dozens of LBS around Washington state, i seem to find the better mechanics at the more professional oriented shops. And typically they, especially if they have a race team, they will have a dedicated wheel builder that should know his ass from a bottom bracket, and not do more harm then good to your wheels. Not all shops will have this, and not all shop wheel builders will be good. But its a place to start. And if you never bother to look around, and exercise your options...then dont complain.


I should point out that the services i get every 500-750 miles are almost always very undramatic. Often times they dont even charge me for looking it over, because there is really nothing to actually "do". The majority of why i do this is my own personal maintenance habits. (ironically from motor racing, so its rather fortuitous you mention race cars) For me, being the weight that i am, and going as fast as i do...i do not want a wheel to have a failure because of a rough section of road when i am going downhill at 45-50 MPH. So its more maintenance on principal, then maintenance for repair. For example, the last time i had them in, the biggest fix was adjusting a couple of the bladed spokes on the front that had twisted 45 degrees.

I would also like to think that my continued consistency in bringing the bike in for servicing also shows them that i care about my bike, and pay enough attention to small issues with it, that they will perform a better service knowing that if something doesnt feel right, i will bring it right back in to be taken care of. So they do it right the first time. I seriously doubt that, but again, in my mind, it gives me some confidence in trusting my life with their work.

That said, however, I also think its worth pointing out that most of these people with wheel issues seem to have them happen in the early days of ownership of their bike. And i think its important to stress to them that there is a reason why most LBS offer free maintenance for the first 30 days on the bike. And you should surely take full advantage of that. Alot of times when i hear of wheel failure, its usually after a couple long rides, and usually on a bike thats a couple weeks fresh off the showroom floor. Proper maintenance and attentive riding can help to reduce many of these small issues that turn into big ones. Do they have to be as anal as me about it? No. But they should be consistent, and diligent in taking their bike to the LBS during the first several weeks of ownership. If for nothing else but to get the wheels up tensioned up, and start fine tuning the fitment of the bike.

I do understand the need for over built wheels. I get it. I have a couple friends who regularly do multi-state tours on their Long Haul Truckers. And in that application, i completely get that semi truck running over proof wheels are a must. However, for anyone on here who isnt doing that, and lets be honest, thats most...a CXP22 on a decent quality hub, with decent quality spokes, and most importantly...a competent build, is going to be more then enough to suit their needs, and handle the rigors of every day use. To do any more then that, or spend money on any more then that, or to imply that because you are XXX pounds you need a wheel with XXX spokes and a super deep dish, simply isnt necessary.

To use more metaphors, to me buying overbuilt wheels to compensate for poor wheel building, is like buying a mac to compensate for poor browsing habbits and not keeping your antivirus up to date.

Fair enough.

Agree completely with the early maintenance points. And add, one of my frustrations is with shops that seem to send known clydes out on factory build wheels with the advice to, "bring them back in a month", without first providing them with any of the service that would help assure that nothing is needed in months time. A bit of elbow forming, stress relieving and tensioning early in a wheels life go a long way to ensuring it's ultimate durability.

I wonder if what you consider to be "over built" and what I believed you to be refering to are the same. Im currently sporting 32 hole, 585's, 3X to ultegra hubs for a 250lb'er. Are those the sort of wheels you're referring to as "over built"? Or, is your definition more of the tandem spoking, 4x, 13ga varient?

With regard to the maintenance interval. Good on ya for finding a decent shop and supporting them. I just can't justify either the cost of such, the transport issues to the shops I would trust or the loss of my primary bike 1 out of 4 weeks. I had been a firm believer in leaving wheel building and truing in the hands of those that did it frquently and should be well practiced at it. Until I was so disappointed by so many of them and finally had to take my own wheel building and maintenance into my own hands. I've been much happier since.

Wow, lots of replies. Hmmm... Where do I start? My riding habitat is paved black top trails and roadways. I keep off potholes and I don't jump curbs because I am 390 lbs. When I bought my bike I was in the 420 ish range and I told the sale guy that because I didn't want to come back every month with a wheel staying in true issue. I know bicycles aren't made for the very overweight. I was recommended the Giant Sedona because it has double wall rims.

The owner from my LBS was the one who helped me this last time because his guys just didn't know what to do and I think they were growing tired of seeing my fat ass in their shop with a repair. They have been absolutely wonderful to me and i'll never say anything bad of their service but i've come to realize they just don't specialize in heavy duty. If this wheel comes untrue in the first 20 miles like the stock ones i'll end up taking my bike somewhere else.

Beach cruisers and road bikes are really their thing and they're good at it but apparently taking care of my fat ass just isn't in the cards or their skill set.

because I am 390 lbs. When I bought my bike I was in the 420 ish range and I told the sale guy that because I didn't want to come back every month with a wheel staying in true issue.

That's why I avoid the LBS as much as possible. They don't sell you what you need, they sell you what they got. The dope that sold you the bike and said the wheels would be fine is a just that, a dope! ;)




The owner from my LBS was the one who helped me this last time because his guys just didn't know what to do and I think they were growing tired of seeing my fat ass in their shop with a repair.

That happens to the dopes, they sell stuff that isn't right, then they have to fret about the consequences of their stupidity.



Beach cruisers and road bikes are really their thing and they're good at it but apparently taking care of my fat ass just isn't in the cards or their skill set.

It ain't your fat ass, it's the fact that they are too dishonest to be up front. They should have told you from the start you would need a custom handbuilt spec'd wheel to go with the bike. But then you more than likely would have changed your mind after adding up the totals, then they would have lost a sale. Them dopes! :mad:

The problem isnt your wheels.

The problem is that the mechanic your LBS has doesnt know how to build a wheel properly, and tension the spokes correctly. And as such they go out of true. Which they would do with even a light rider who rides hard.

A properly built and tensioned set of wheels will not come out of true unless they are abused, potholed, jumped, curbed, or some other massive force is applied to them.

So this LBS, instead of admitting that they cant properly build wheels, is insisting on trying to sell you overbuilt super heavy wheels to work around the problem, rather then resolve it.

My suggestion...find a new LBS.


+1 to all of this.

My suggestion is w/respect to an above poster who had a 36h set of Mavic A719s etc. built for him. I would recommend a 48h Sun CR-18 w/DT Alpine 3 spokes and a Shimano HF08 rear tandem hub. Have a reputable wheelbuilder do the build. I realize it's pricey, but it'll last you the rest of your life. You'll never need another rear wheel. My tourer has the same combo in a 700 wheel except I bit the bullet and got a Phil Wood hub. It's a phenomenal combination of smoothness and strength. Would've gotten a Mavic A719 rim, but they don't make them in 48h configurations anymore.

Tires are important, too. For you I'd recommend Schwalbe Big Apples w/Forte puncture resistant tubes. I've got Schwalbe Marathon Plus' and Fortes on all my bikes as I hate flats almost more than broken spokes. :notamused:

Btw, OP afa learning to build one's own wheelsets, I put a sign up @ a lbs community board asking for a wheelbuilding teacher. Offering money for lessons. The guy that answered the ad is now one of my best cycling buddies and I ride everyday on wheelsets self-built. It's the most satisfyfing feeling in my cycling life. Ended up taking twice as long as we'd agreed and he really put me through my paces. Made me build front wheels only until I could, literally build a front wheel and true it w/my eyes closed. He liked dark beer and black, fench-pressed coffee. Best 3 mos. of my life. It was like wheelbuilding bootcamp. When I began to build rear wheels consistantly well he had a certificate made up for me on his PC...it's hanging on the wall in my bike room. My tourer wheelset is self-built and I can't wait to take it out for a month or two.

The biggest problem here is the wheels themselves... The double-wall rims are stronger than single-wall, but they're still CHEAP rims and spokes that are machine-built. Simply truing them every so often by loosening one spoke and tightening another is NOT going to resolve the problem.

Sub-$400 bikes do NOT have great spokes, period. "Stainless" doesn't mean quality - DT Swiss, Wheelsmith, etc. mean quality... If you like the hubs and rims OK you can have them rebuilt and properly tensioned with decent spokes, a good spoke-prep compound and it'll make a world of difference.

Factory wheels on entry-level bikes simply do NOT hold up to clyde weights, even if you're just rolling on the roads.

Honestly, if it were me, I'd upgrade the wheels. There's quality single-wall rims that are likely stronger than these cheap factory double-wall... And no, I don't believe you need 40 spoke wheels either. 36 is just fine if built properly with good components.

Have a reputable wheelbuilder do the build. I realize it's pricey, but it'll last you the rest of your life. You'll never need another rear wheel. My tourer has the same combo in a 700 wheel except I bit the bullet and got a Phil Wood hub. It's a phenomenal combination of smoothness and strength. Would've gotten a Mavic A719 rim, but they don't make them in 48h configurations anymore.

WINNER!!!!!

I had a LBS, run by nice, well meaning people that are used to dealing with "normal riders", try to sell me Mavic wheels when my stock rear wheel died a few months ago. Needless to say I passed and wound up going back to the LBS that sold me my Surly. I talked to their wheel guy (the great Bill Mould at Spokes in Alexandria) and told him stock 32h wheels just couldn't take the punishment my 390+lb body was dishing out. He agreed and recommended a Phil Wood 48h hub and Velocity Chukkar rim. Not quite what I wanted to pay but now that I've put a few hundred miles on it I can say it's one of the best purchase I've ever made.