Commuting - Traffic ticket

One of my colleagues got a traffic ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign when on his bicycle. He is wondering if this will affect his car insurance premiums - does anyone have any idea?
Edited to add: this was in San Mateo, California

http://www.sfbike.org/?bikelaw_ticket_faq

Insurance companies aren't automatically notified of violations. I don't know what industry practices are for checking records of customers. Probably varies by company.
Also, don't know if they could or would differentiate between bike and motor vehicle violations.

The link above by ckaspar is correct that under California law moving violations while bicycling are not supposed to count for insurance purposes and license points assessment. But mistakes are sometimes made so one should check that the ticket makes it clear that the violation occurred while bicycling. Laws and procedure vary in other states.

Thanks, I passed on the replies to my colleague.

Why would you show a drivers license for a bike ticket?

I don't know if he did that - but I imagine a policeman would check id - and a DL is the only id most of us carry.

Why would you show a drivers license for a bike ticket?For a bunch of people, a DL is the only State issued ID (or an ID with their picture on it) that they have.

In Montreal tickets are issued to cyclists and moving violations result in points being deducted from your drivers license. Insurance premiums here are based on accident history AND points against your drivers license. So in theory, moving violations on a bicycle can result in the loss of your drivers lisence and / or higher onsurance premiums.

I believe in the most states in the US you can be ticketed for traffic violations while on any moving vehicle including a bike, skateboard or lawnmower. I don't think that many, if any, states automatically report them to the insurance company.

Why would you show a drivers license for a bike ticket?

Because a traffic ticket is an arrest and without ID the officer is more likely to take you to jail instead of releasing you on your own recognizances. For most people our driver's license is the only photo ID we carry on a daily basis.

Because a traffic ticket is an arrest and without ID the officer is more likely to take you to jail instead of releasing you on your own recognizances. For most people our driver's license is the only photo ID we carry on a daily basis.

A traffic ticket isn't an arrest, however, in practically every state all adults are required by law to carry legal ID. In mos states you are breaking the law by not having ID, so when you get stopped by a Cop they can arrest you for not providing ID.

A traffic ticket isn't an arrest, however, in practically every state all adults are required by law to carry legal ID. In mos states you are breaking the law by not having ID, so when you get stopped by a Cop they can arrest you for not providing ID.


Can you provide any citations or legal links to show verification of what you stated? Not intending to argue, in fact I won't subscribe to this thread so I'll probably lose track of this thread, just requesting some fact verification. Point of reference, I've been a resident of Wisconsin, California, Oregon, and Washington and I don't believe I was required bu law to have identification on my person as long as I wasn't doing anything requiring a license nor proof of mu age. And as always, YMMV. ;)

Can you provide any citations or legal links to show verification of what you stated? Not intending to argue, in fact I won't subscribe to this thread so I'll probably lose track of this thread, just requesting some fact verification. Point of reference, I've been a resident of Wisconsin, California, Oregon, and Washington and I don't believe I was required bu law to have identification on my person as long as I wasn't doing anything requiring a license nor proof of mu age. And as always, YMMV. ;)
It varies by state, I don't have a link for you but I know that in most states if you are pulled over while operating a vehicle and don't have ID/License you can be arrested for it. Some states consider a bike a vehicle, so you are required to show ID if stopped by a cop. However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way. I know in MN tha and CA that's the way it works. So long as you are not doing anything wrong or breaking a law or operating a vehicle you don't have to carry ID.

If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ??????

"If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ?????? "

I have never heard of such a thing, certainly not in a free country such as Canada. In Ontario, for bike traffic tickets you are only required to identify yourself... i.e. provide your name and address. Of course lying about it would be obstruction of justice or some such and probably a bad idea on balance. In general I thought the idea was that police needed some legal grounds to detain you.

There are a couple of threads in the safety and advocacy forum dealing with insurance issues.

If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ??????

Well, in most states it's simply semantics, you can't be arrested for not providing ID or not IDing yourself but either gives them probably cause to arrest you on whatever grounds they stopped you for. So, if they pull you over for blowing through a red and you don't provide ID they can just arrest you on probably cause for pretty well whatever reason they want. You can be riding home from getting a gallon of milk and be booked on suspicion of burglary because you didn't carry ID. Now, most cops wouldn't go that far but it can happen, particularly if they were in the neighborhood because of suspicious activity call.

123 bucks. Dayummm.

I have never heard of such a thing, certainly not in Canada. In Ontario, for bike traffic tickets you are only required to identify yourself... i.e. provide your name and address. Of course lying about it would be obstruction of justice or some such and probably a bad idea on balance. There are a couple of threads in the safety and advocacy forum dealing with insurance issues.


That is also how it works in the US.

There is a difference between identifying oneself and the need to provide a physical ID card that seems to bring confusion.

I don't think anyone would be arrested for not having ID but they could be detained and there is quite a difference between being arrested and being detained.

The legality of whether or not to ID yourself to LEO aside, consider this:

If you choose to leave your ID at home when you go out for a ride, and you get into a bad accident such that you are rendered unconscious, how is the first responders/medical staff supposed to be able to even begin contacting your family or S.O.? Even if you respond with just check the cell phone you probably carry for the ICE contact, assume worst case and that thing is inoperable and that info is lost/unaccessible.

Carrying an ID just makes life so much easier.

It varies by state, I don't have a link for you but I know that in most states if you are pulled over while operating a vehicle and don't have ID/License you can be arrested for it. Some states consider a bike a vehicle, so you are required to show ID if stopped by a cop. However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way. I know in MN tha and CA that's the way it works. So long as you are not doing anything wrong or breaking a law or operating a vehicle you don't have to carry ID.

The difference is that under the Motor Vehicle Act (or whatever it's called in your area) you are required by law to have a license to operate a motor vehicle. You are not required by law to have a license to operate a bicycle even if it is considered a vehicle. Therefore there is no requirement to carry a license and no pretext to ask for paper identification as opposed to asking you to provide a name and address.

Do you really believe that police only stop people who are "doing something wrong?"

(emphasis mine)


"If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ?????? "

I have never heard of such a thing, certainly not in a free country such as Canada. In Ontario, for bike traffic tickets you are only required to identify yourself... i.e. provide your name and address. Of course lying about it would be obstruction of justice or some such and probably a bad idea on balance. In general I thought the idea was that police needed some legal grounds to detain you.

There are a couple of threads in the safety and advocacy forum dealing with insurance issues.

Well, there's the issue right there.

What if someone were riding with only a Road ID bracelet and no picture ID? I suppose an officer asking could just punch you up on the cruiser laptop and your picture would appear.

The difference is that under the Motor Vehicle Act (or whatever it's called in your area) you are required by law to have a license to operate a motor vehicle. You are not required by law to have a license to operate a bicycle even if it is considered a vehicle. Therefore there is no requirement to carry a license and no pretext to ask for paper identification as opposed to asking you to provide a name and address.

Do you really believe that police only stop people who are "doing something wrong?"

Yes, they do stop people only whne they have a reason, for the most part. When was the last time you just had a cop just come up and chat with you?

RoadID or a piece of paper with your name, address, insurance and contact info. Wouldn't that take care of it?

As you said:
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"

When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.

Yes, they do stop people only whne they have a reason, for the most part. When was the last time you just had a cop just come up and chat with you?

In certain neighborhoods here, I can guarantee that you will be stopped for a chat if you are just out for a stroll after dark. They call it a field interrogation and it is used to prevent gang violence.

As you said:
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"

When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.

You shouldn't be. It's been going on for decades. It accelerated after 9/11.

As you said:
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"

When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.

So murderers can move freely through Canada as long as they are smart enough to throw their ID away?

As you said:
"However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way"

When did Americans become so willing to give up their rights? I'm truly astonished.

I didn't say I liked it but that's the way it can work if the cop wants it to.

RoadID or a piece of paper with your name, address, insurance and contact info. Wouldn't that take care of it?
Don't have a RoadID. As far as a piece of paper goes, where would you put it? On your person, it could get wet and the ink fades over time. In your seat wedge? I'm not about to leave that kind of info on the bike, least any thief steals the bike, nor does the idea of taking a scrap of paper out of my seat bag every time I lock up appeals to me.

In certain neighborhoods here, I can guarantee that you will be stopped for a chat if you are just out for a stroll after dark. They call it a field interrogation and it is used to prevent gang violence.
Yeah, but then it's not for no reason. There is a clear reason why they are talking to you. I bet if you dressed a certain way, looked a certain way and didn't provide ID when asked they'd grab you on some sort of charge.

It is well established that, as a pedestrian, a lack of ID card does not give probable cause for detainment on its own.

Of course, stop and identify laws are continually abused with little push-back from the public.

Don't have a RoadID. As far as a piece of paper goes, where would you put it? On your person, it could get wet and the ink fades over time. In your seat wedge? I'm not about to leave that kind of info on the bike, least any thief steals the bike, nor does the idea of taking a scrap of paper out of my seat bag every time I lock up appeals to me.

I have one of those little preprinted name and address sticky labels stuck to a surface on the inside of my helmet in a spot where it doesn't get wet. No phone # on it but hey I'm in the phone book.

Not that I'm trying to hijack this into a helmet thread mind you :)

Well, let's see. I suppose if there is probable cause to think someone is a murderer that would be a good reason to arrest them and ask for ID, even fingerprints. It's not the same as asking random people for ID just to see if one of them might possibly be wanted for spitting on the sidewalk in Kalazamoo.
I'm just getting more astonished. I think I'll stay home. No internal passports required.

"Of course, stop and identify laws are continually abused with little push-back from the public."

Exactly right and the same everwhere. A little pushback/backbone is required.

A traffic ticket isn't an arrest, however, in practically every state all adults are required by law to carry legal ID. In mos states you are breaking the law by not having ID, so when you get stopped by a Cop they can arrest you for not providing ID.
This is only true while driving a car. It is not true in other cases. You are not required to carry ID if you are not driving.

And while it is a crime to drive a car if you haven't been issued a license, it is an infraction to drive a car without your license in your possession. You won't be - can't be - arrested if you forgot your license as home as long as you are able to otherwise identify yourself in a satisfactory matter. I.e., if you give your name and DOB, police can pull up your license, complete with a picture, on their computer.


It varies by state, I don't have a link for you but I know that in most states if you are pulled over while operating a vehicle and don't have ID/License you can be arrested for it.

Only if you haven't been issued one. Not if you aren't carrying it with you.




Some states consider a bike a vehicle, so you are required to show ID if stopped by a cop.

Wrong. You are not required to carry ID on a bike. You may be required to identify yourself, but that's not the same as carrying ID.


However, in some states they can't arrest you for not IDing yourself but it gives them probably cause to arrest you so either way it ends the same if the cop wants it that way.

This is not at all correct, although I'm not sure that what you wrote is what you meant.

There is no probable cause in the abstract; you can only be arrested if there is probable cause that *you committed a crime.* Not having ID isn't a crime, so it, by itself, isn't probable cause that you have committed a crime.

Now if there is a break-in at a store and you vaguely fit the description of the person who broke in and are in the vicinity of the break in, and police question you and you refuse to tell them your name...well, the combination of those facts might lead to you being arrested.


I know in MN tha and CA that's the way it works. So long as you are not doing anything wrong or breaking a law or operating a vehicle you don't have to carry ID.[/QUOTE]

This last sentence is correct, although it seems to contradict what you wrote before.

As far as a piece of paper goes, where would you put it?

Wouldn't you put it wherever you'd put your driver's license? Get it laminated if that's an issue. Why the need for a government ID to say who you are and who to contact?

"So long as you are not doing anything wrong or breaking a law or operating a vehicle you don't have to carry ID."


That's an interesting concept; that you are legally required to carry ID if you're "doing something wrong or breaking the law."

Someone should tell the criminals so they won't break the law twice (or for the first time in the case of mere wrong-doers.)

I can't stand it any more. Enough for me! It's been an education.

Wouldn't you put it wherever you'd put your driver's license? Get it laminated if that's an issue. Why the need for a government ID to say who you are and who to contact?
While the ID won't contain contact info per se, it will help in tracking down my wife in a worst case scenario.

You need a picture ID issued by some trusted, governmental type agency to do business with banks, take pre-employment drug screens, to complete 'New Hire' paperwork for any and all employers and temp agencies...

If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ??????

Since when does the effectiveness of law enforcement, maintaining good order, and efficiently providing a safe and orderly society factor into our body of laws?

[QUOTE=mcrow;14469540in practically every state all adults are required by law to carry legal ID. In mos states you are breaking the law by not having ID, so when you get stopped by a Cop they can arrest you for not providing ID.[/QUOTE]

I do not believe that this is true in ANY state. You can be asked by a police officer to identify yourself, and if the officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that you have been involved with something illegal, he may detain you until he can verify your identity, but in the US AFAIK nobody is required to carry ID. If you're operating a motor vehicle then you're required to carry an operator's permit, but that's a different issue.

Traffic School! (http://cees.com/)

If you don't provide ID to a police officer, how would he know that there weren't wants or warrants for your arrest? You can be detained until your identity is established. If they didn't do this then criminals could just make up a name and say they didn't have an ID. ??????

The police can only ask for ID if you are stopped for a crime. You are not required to show ID unless you are suspected of committing a crime, you don't even have to give your name. You cannot be detained unless you are suspected of committing a crime. Our 4th amendment provides us these protections.

You are also not required to carry ID, you are required to carry a drivers license if you are driving a car, there is no license or ID requirement for cycling. This is not a communist state.

The police can only ask for ID if you are stopped for a crime. You are not required to show ID unless you are suspected of committing a crime, you don't even have to give your name. You cannot be detained unless you are suspected of committing a crime. Our 4th amendment provides us these protections.

You are also not required to carry ID, you are required to carry a drivers license if you are driving a car, there is no license or ID requirement for cycling. This is not a communist state.

This.

I do carry my DL when I bike or run, just in case something happens and someone needs to ID me in an emergency, like if I'm unconscious or something. I'd like to get a RoadID bracelet so I don't have to always take my DL out of my wallet, and then remember to put it back in when I get back and I end up driving without my DL on my person (has happened MANY times recently since I started running and cycling regularly).

The difference is that under the Motor Vehicle Act (or whatever it's called in your area) you are required by law to have a license to operate a motor vehicle. You are not required by law to have a license to operate a bicycle even if it is considered a vehicle. Therefore there is no requirement to carry a license and no pretext to ask for paper identification as opposed to asking you to provide a name and address.

True.Police Officers can use their on-board computers or radio to dispatcher to confirm the provided name and address as well as obtain any current Driver's License for the provided name. Not carrying a Driver's license while bicycling is no guarantee or "protection" from being issued a traffic ticket.

If you read about some of the "voter ID" cases that have been in the news (and in the courts), the argument is being made that none of us US citizens have ever been required to own an ID of any sort... and never will!

Yes, they do stop people only whne they have a reason, for the most part. When was the last time you just had a cop just come up and chat with you?

Just yesterday at lunch. I was standing in line waiting to place my order, and this 6'5" cop walks up and put his hand on my shoulder and started talking to me. Of course, I forgot to mention that he and I used to work together a couple of years ago before he joined the force... But still there is occasion. :)

A traffic ticket isn't an arrest, however, in practically every state all adults are required by law to carry legal ID. In mos states you are breaking the law by not having ID, so when you get stopped by a Cop they can arrest you for not providing ID.You are so off track.

First, cops can easily check your identification with just your verbal name and birth date. The in car computer can look it up, including address, arrest and warrants in just a few seconds.

You are only required to carry a drivers license if you are operating a MOTOR vehicle. NO ID card is required for riding a bicycle. Cops cannot legally confiscate your bicycle for not having an ID card on you.


Here is the US Supreme Court - Hiibel case that establishes that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police:

HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=03-5554

Here is the bottom line on cyclist and ID Cards. The Hiibel US Supreme Court case firmly establishes that if a cyclist is stopped by police either for investigation or arrest, all the cyclist must do, is verbally provide their correct name and birth date. No state laws can override this. So no state can legally compel cyclist to carry or present an ID Card to police.

If a cyclist wants to carry an ID Card for emergencies, fine, but cyclist are not required to so. Cyclist can also put an emergency contact number into their cell phone under ICE (standing for In Case of Emergency) which would also allow police or EMTs to quickly contact someone who knows you, and may know any special medical conditions you have.

Now if you are in a state like California, that has a law that a citizen who has committed a traffic infraction and if that citizen is willing to show a valid ID Card and sign a promise to appear, then the police must release the citizen with a citation and cannot take such citizen into custody; then it might be a good idea to carry a valid ID Card with you, IF you plan on breaking traffic laws and you are also going to carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items on you. In such a case, the ID Card might be a get out of jail free card for the illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items. For those of us that do not break the traffic code and do not carry illegal drugs, weapons or other illegal items; NOT carrying the ID Card when cycling has no legal impact.

Choosing to either carry an ID Card or NOT carry an ID Card is YOUR legal choice when cycling.

You cannot be arrested for not carrying and presenting an ID Card to police when cycling.

Folks, if you are truly interested in the ID Card subject and confirming for yourself that a cyclist is only required to provide basic verbal identifying information if stopped by police, please read the Hiibel case. It is long and may be a little hard to follow, but it is worth while to understand your rights.