Commuting - Cantilevers worthless for commuting?

Hi All,

I recently bought a Miyata 615 GT with cantilever brakes on it. They are the original brakes with ancient pads. The braking performance is poor compared to my last bike that had v-brakes. My local shop is building me a wheelset and they encouraged me to ditch them for some relatively cheap v-brakes for more stopping power. I ride in all weather and stopping distance is very important because my bike is my main means of transportation. However, I like the idea of preserving the mechanical operation and appearance of the bike (v-brakes require adding brake stop, leave empty braze-ons).

Is it ridiculous to think I can get great braking from a new set of cantilevers?

For example the Tektro CR720... http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=5&sortname=Brake&sort=1&fid=2

What are your thoughts?

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That is ludicrous. Cantilever brakes are fine. I would have them adjusted and put new brake pads on. Once that is finished you can see if they are still inadequate and pick up the tektro.

If you swap cantilevers for V-brakes you'll also have to change the brake levers to V-brake compatible ones.

IMHO I would change the pads out to something like Kool Stop Salmon colored cantilever pads... a lot of times
that will make a huge difference in braking efficiency. The OEM cantilevers on your 615 GT should provide more
than enough stopping power.

:speedy:

With nice new pads and when properly adjusted those cantilevers should be plenty good enough to chuck you over the handlebars wet or dry.

If you swap cantilevers for V-brakes you'll also have to change the brake levers to V-brake compatible ones.

IMHO I would change the pads out to something like Kool Stop Salmon colored cantilever pads... a lot of times
that will make a huge difference in braking efficiency. The OEM cantilevers on your 615 GT should provide more
than enough stopping power.
:speedy:

+1

Use these: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=15110

Upgrade to these if needed: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=19516

You CAN get good performance from cantis - especially the older style, wide armed cantis. If they're set up well with good pads, they work very well with excellent modulation. Added bonus, they can fit fenders. They also don't have to be as tight on the rim as a v-brake. If you use v brakes, you'll need specific levers like these:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/IMG_0729.jpg

Unless you use a travel agent.

These are the best canti's I've used, but they're hard to find:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/brakes1-1.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0999.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/photo-5.jpg

Thank you for your responses everyone. I added some pictures to the first thread showing the Shimano brakes and levers on the bike. I feel much better requesting a pad replacement and adjustment now.

+1

Use these: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=15110

Upgrade to these if needed: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=19516

Those look good but I have a different style of pad, it doesn't have any threads on it. Maybe the Salmon version of these?

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=15104&category=36

That brake was on my mid 80s SBI Expedition Touring bike,
they stopped a Loaded touring bike just fine.

Is a said 'a poor mechanic blames their tools'.

Those look good but I have a different style of pad, it doesn't have any threads on it. Maybe the Salmon version of these?

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=15104&category=36

Yes, good eye!

Hi All,

I recently bought a Miyata 615 GT with cantilever brakes on it. They are the original brakes with ancient pads. The braking performance is poor compared to my last bike that had v-brakes.

Does poor equate to increased required stopping distance or are there other issues? I recently test rode a new Felt F35X with cantilevers, but I didn't care for the feel, especially the shuddering. However, I have no doubt that the the brakes could quickly stop the bike.

Does poor equate to increased required stopping distance or are there other issues? I recently test rode a new Felt F35X with cantilevers, but I didn't care for the feel, especially the shuddering. However, I have no doubt that the the brakes could quickly stop the bike.

Good question. The brakes feel smooth but they don't "bite" the rim. Even with strong grip on the levers, the response is soft and the bike stops much more slowly than my old v-brake bike. I can squeeze as hard as I want but it just won't slow down very fast. Even at low speeds I doubt I could lock up the front wheel. With my last bike, I think this would have been possible, or at least plausible.

Hi All,

I recently bought a Miyata 615 GT with cantilever brakes on it. They are the original brakes with ancient pads. The braking performance is poor compared to my last bike that had v-brakes. My local shop is building me a wheelset and they encouraged me to ditch them for some relatively cheap v-brakes for more stopping power. I ride in all weather and stopping distance is very important because my bike is my main means of transportation. However, I like the idea of preserving the mechanical operation and appearance of the bike (v-brakes require adding brake stop, leave empty braze-ons).

Is it ridiculous to think I can get great braking from a new set of cantilevers?

For example the Tektro CR720... http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=5&sortname=Brake&sort=1&fid=2

What are your thoughts?

261615261616261617

I think you need to replace your break shoes like others have recommended. Kool Stops will restore the braking to those cantilevers so you'll literally stop on a dime.

OP,

The canti's you have on your 615 GT are early Shimano AT-50 canti's, the more basic version of the Deore XT's that fietsbob had on his Expedition.
Properly adjusted, with those A400 aero levers and Salmon pads you should be able to stop on a dime and make 8¢ change.

With proper adjustment, new pads and new rims will make all the difference in the world.

Without reading the other responses, the cantilevers are fine. They're just trying to soak you for more $$$!

Um, no. My "modern" Tricross is spec'd with "ancient" cantis. And the bike stops just fine. Simpler the better my friend.

Not really new information, but I agree with all of the above posts. Properly adjusted cantilever brakes with new and decent pads can and should stop you just as effectively as v-brakes. If you do go with v-brakes, new levers will be required due to the difference in mechnical advantage. Look up Sheldon Brown's article online about this if you want to know specifically why - but the short version is that your current levers are not compatible for safe stopping on v-brakes.
There are a few options (Tektro makes a popular set, as mentioned) but most drop bar levers are made to work with cantilever or traditional center/side pull brakes - you'll pay a premium for mixing things... I would be suspicious of a shop that tells you to replace the entire braking system instead of just re-greasing the moving parts and putting on new pads and cables.

If you swap cantilevers for V-brakes you'll also have to change the brake levers to V-brake compatible ones.

IMHO I would change the pads out to something like Kool Stop Salmon colored cantilever pads... a lot of times
that will make a huge difference in braking efficiency. The OEM cantilevers on your 615 GT should provide more
than enough stopping power.

:speedy:

Great point. The combo of RB levers and Kool-Stop pads should be fine. No need to spend extra money on Vs and new levers. Make sure your wheels are true and centered. Take all the slack out of the arc cable. Then squeeze the levers hard 20 times to stretch the cable and you should be good to go.

My main commuter has cantis and I just put new pads on them about a month ago. Aztecs from Nashbar. They work great. It's a CX bike and the brakes do rs a little better to the flat-bar lever than to the hood levers, but either way cantis are fine.

I commute with canti brakes every day. They work fine, even on lolheug hills.

Second everyone's thoughts above. I'd also consider using a different mechanic/LBS - biggest reason to switch to v-brakes is ease of installation, not added braking power. As mentioned above, it'll require new levers too - I like to have an LBS that will give me the cheapest options that keep me riding safely, not try to sell me on unnecessary "upgrades".

http://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html see "Mechanical Advantage." I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but you can try a more shallow link wire, from your picture it looks to be very long. New pads are still a good idea, but I would try to adjust that first to see what effect it has.

Wow.

I can't believe a bike "mechanic" would make that statement. I commute on cantilevers all the time, and I've ridden a ton of hard mountain biking miles on them too.

The key to your problem is your "ancient pads." They don't look like they were very good pads to begin with, and over the years the rubber has probably become very hard. As noted several times above, a simple pad switch should have you stopping fine.

Good question. The brakes feel smooth but they don't "bite" the rim. Even with strong grip on the levers, the response is soft and the bike stops much more slowly than my old v-brake bike. I can squeeze as hard as I want but it just won't slow down very fast. Even at low speeds I doubt I could lock up the front wheel. With my last bike, I think this would have been possible, or at least plausible.

That sounds like an adjustment issue in conjunction with the "ancient" brake pads. I've been rolling Tektro CR720s on all my canti equipped bikes for a few years. I use Kool Stop salmon pads and they work very well in all but the worst of conditions... I'm talking about *really* bad; like, iced over middle of winter packed full of snow and road slush on the commuter, or slick wet muddy CX course with fresh-cut grass so a combo of that crap packs in around the brakes.

http://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html see "Mechanical Advantage." I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but you can try a more shallow link wire, from your picture it looks to be very long. New pads are still a good idea, but I would try to adjust that first to see what effect it has.

+1
I was considering commenting on that.
I've never seen such a long straddle cable on a canti.


Also, that is a tall frame, with a long head tube, and a cable stop mounted up by the stem. That is a recipe for a front brake that shudders and grabs on steep descents. In my experience, it made my front brake unusable in descents of more than 9%.

Lennard Zinn explains it here: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

The solution is a cable stop mounted at the fork crown. Tektro and Specialized make them.

http://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html see "Mechanical Advantage." I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but you can try a more shallow link wire, from your picture it looks to be very long. New pads are still a good idea, but I would try to adjust that first to see what effect it has.


Now that I really looked at your pics, yup, really need to readjust your cable yoke lower and closer to your brakes. But I also agree with Shimagnolo that with such a long cable travel because of your long steerer tube, you may still not get enough braking power and too much shudder. Moving the brake cable hanger thingy to the fork crown should solve that. Never seen this before though.

Now that I really looked at your pics, yup, really need to readjust your cable yoke lower and closer to your brakes. But I also agree with Shimagnolo that with such a long cable travel because of your long steerer tube, you may still not get enough braking power.

Braking power is not the problem; A grabby front brake that can't be modulated is what happens with that arrangement.

Braking power is not the problem; A grabby front brake that can't be modulated is what happens with that arrangement.

And the dreaded "canti squeal" gets really annoying after a while! The Vassago I raced on last year had horrid squeal with a stem mounted hanger, my current bike has a longer HT measure and a carbon fork but no shudder because I swapped out to a crown-mounted hanger.

In regards to the fork-crown mounted cable stop - I just bought one from the LBS for $20 and installed it.
Incidentally, this is also on a Miyata that had a too long crossover cable that needed replacing anyway, I decided to make this upgrade at the same time after reading this thread.

262294

This one is made by Specialized, and I had to do some creative fiddling to get it to mount properly with my fenders and not scrape against the bearings. I was hoping to get the Tektro model and in silver, however this is all they had.

262295

What you see is an old washer from a center-pull brake that's been reversed so that the concave section that would normally press against a rounded fork crown is holding the hanger in place, and a lock-washer in between to hold it and act as an extra spacer. Normally this would be mounted with an L-bracket that came with the kit, but the spacing wasn't enough and it interfered with the fender's tab.

I had a photo of the the Tektro one loaded on my phone to show them what I needed at the LBS. The one pictured is labelled "Tricross Fork Brake Hanger" on the package and included mounting hardware for alloy and carbon fibre forks.

Please ignore the rust visible in the photos, I'm still in the process of cleaning this bike up. :)

Wow.

I can't believe a bike "mechanic" would make that statement. I commute on cantilevers all the time, and I've ridden a ton of hard mountain biking miles on them too.

The key to your problem is your "ancient pads." They don't look like they were very good pads to begin with, and over the years the rubber has probably become very hard. As noted several times above, a simple pad switch should have you stopping fine.

Thank you again, everyone. I just want to be clear that my shop didn't say cantis were worthless but it looks like they really over-emphasized the improvement from a v-brake conversion. I will definitely just put on some new pads, as well as shorten the link wire. There isn't any reason to have it much higher than clearing the fender, right?

The crown hanger makes a lot of sense to me. However, the light I ordered also wants to use that hole. I know B&M make cantilever brackets: http://harriscyclery.net/product/busch-mller-lumotec-oval-cantilever-mount-bracket-1902.htm

Here is the light I have coming: http://www.bumm.de/produkte/dynamo-scheinwerfer/lumotec-iq-cyo-t.html

Hi All,

I recently bought a Miyata 615 GT with cantilever brakes on it. They are the original brakes with ancient pads. The braking performance is poor compared to my last bike that had v-brakes. My local shop is building me a wheelset and they encouraged me to ditch them for some relatively cheap v-brakes for more stopping power. I ride in all weather and stopping distance is very important because my bike is my main means of transportation. However, I like the idea of preserving the mechanical operation and appearance of the bike (v-brakes require adding brake stop, leave empty braze-ons).

Is it ridiculous to think I can get great braking from a new set of cantilevers?

For example the Tektro CR720... http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=5&sortname=Brake&sort=1&fid=2

What are your thoughts?

261615261616261617

Those are beautiful brakes and I would question any shop that suggested that you ditch these for some lower end V brakes... New kool stop pads and a proper set up will make for some excellent braking.

Those are beautiful brakes and I would question any shop that suggested that you ditch these for some lower end V brakes... New kool stop pads and a proper set up will make for some excellent braking.

I just put a set of the Tektro CR720 on my tourer/commuter. They were a little challenging for me to set up. You do need to be at little more patient than with a v-brake setup. But when installed they feel very nice,... much better than those short pull cantis. However, the pads that come with them aren't the best.... when they wear down a bit, I'll be looking for some kool stops.

I have one bike with Tektro Oryx cantis and the braking is so-so, largely because I put too long of a z-link wire on them... and the pads are a little old. I will be replacing them before my next big ride. The other bike has a set of Avid SD4s with short z-link wires and is a much better stopper. Neither are useless by any means. It is just a matter of configuration.

I have canti brakes on 3 bikes and I love them. They key is to set them up properly and replace the pads with something like Kool Stop salmons. A lot of cyclists who promote V brakes seem to gloss over their disadvantages. Altho V-brakes apparently do have good stopping power, you have to set the pads very close to the rims, which can make it harder to fit larger tires and cause problems if you rims get even slightly out of true.

I've got 3 different kinds of cantis on my bikes -- Shimano R550s, Shimano CX50s and Tektro 720s. They all function perfectly. They stop well and do not squeal. They are easy to open when installing or removing wheels, and can handle very large tires. I have replaced the stock pads on all of my brakes with Kool Stops.

I put cr720's on my commuter with koolstops and the braking was fine except for heavy rain. I let four different mechanics try their best at adjusting them and never got reliable stopping in the rain. put a mini V on my front wheel and braking is better. Adjusting is tricky and the clearance is tight, but braking is better.

Though i'm still debating getting a new fork and front disc brake.

Cantis sometimes feel soft, but if it's actually taking longer to brake, that's a pad/setup issue. My cantis are equipped with regular kool-stop pads, not the salmons, and will stop me as fast as road friction allows. Meaning I have the ability to lock the wheels if I so desire (or am not paying attention).

It's not that they're soft. They work fine when it's dry but when it's really raining I end up having to do the Flintstone to stop. A lot of people are quick to argue that Canti's are great and if you have problems they say that they just aren't adjusted right. Which may be true, but 4 different bike shops couldn't adjust them right. I put mini-v's on the front and from the get go they work better in the rain. No complicated adjusting.

when it's really raining I end up having to do the Flintstone to stop

exactly where KS Salmon compound pads are made to perform better..

they are made in the metro Portland area, after all.

exactly where KS Salmon compound pads are made to perform better..

they are made in the metro Portland area, after all.

They are what I use...

If you ask me, properly set up cantilevers =/> v-brakes.

On the other hand, poorly set up cantilevers < fred flintstone-ing.

Thank you again, everyone. I just want to be clear that my shop didn't say cantis were worthless but it looks like they really over-emphasized the improvement from a v-brake conversion. I will definitely just put on some new pads, as well as shorten the link wire. There isn't any reason to have it much higher than clearing the fender, right?

Well, there is a point where it's too low. By lowering the straddle cable, you increase the mechanical advantage, but:


If there is too much mechanical advantage, the lever will be all-too-easy to pull, but it will run out of travel and bump up against the handlebar before the brake is fully applied. Once the lever hits the handlebar, it doesn't matter how much harder you squeeze!

fwiw I put a set of cheapy xlc brake pads (under $4 for set of 4) on an old trek with lower end shimano cantis and they stopped it just fine. at least in dry weather

+1
I was considering commenting on that.
I've never seen such a long straddle cable on a canti.


Also, that is a tall frame, with a long head tube, and a cable stop mounted up by the stem. That is a recipe for a front brake that shudders and grabs on steep descents. In my experience, it made my front brake unusable in descents of more than 9%.

Lennard Zinn explains it here: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/news/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

The solution is a cable stop mounted at the fork crown. Tektro and Specialized make them.


that is a cool article. thanks for posting

Others have posted what I think is very good advice about canti brakes. I'll just add another positive view. These brakes have always worked well enough, I think. I never shared the deep frustration some people seem to have. MTB's used to come with them, and I had a lot of fun riding my old bike around before anyone knew any better.

One thing I like about cantilever brakes is that the brake pads can be made to last a lot longer than on v-brakes. You can keep pulling that wire out to keep the pads close and use up nearly all the pad.

Hi Guys Paul here, now I work in a bike shop which is more like a co-op, now something that really gets my boss a bit upset is bike shops saying stuff like "Just replace it".
We keep using stuff for as long as possible, so there are a few things to try with your existing set up. Before you even try new pads I would first File the pads until you reach fresh rubber, also making sure there is enough rubber to keep using the pads.

Remove straddle cable, and then re adjust the pads as high on the rim as possible with out fowling tyre (with a rubberband or thinner cable tie placed between the back of the pad and rim to acheive 1-1.5mm worth of toe in if pads are squealing) it is paramount that from the front or the rear of the bike the pads look level with each other, as high as possible and level will bring out the best in your canti's on road. I am by no means an expert . . I just love canti's!

I think if you can get a better result out of your bike while spending money that has to be a good thing.

I also think a lot of people think canti's are bad brakes . . . they are not bad brakes normally they just are set up wrong.

If you do go the Tektro route I would personally go for their RL340 levers too.

Give the cantis a chance. V Brakes can be very noisey in the wet.

Kool Stop Salmon pads. Lower the straddle cable. Make sure your braking surfaces on the rims are clean. Lightly sand your brake pads periodically to get rid of the "glaze" (gets worse when braking in wet conditions).

If that doesn't work, try some type of mini v brakes (shorter arms designed to work with road levers). Just make sure they will stand off enough from your tires and fenders.

Hi All,

I recently bought a Miyata 615 GT with cantilever brakes on it. They are the original brakes with ancient pads. The braking performance is poor compared to my last bike that had v-brakes. My local shop is building me a wheelset and they encouraged me to ditch them for some relatively cheap v-brakes for more stopping power. I ride in all weather and stopping distance is very important because my bike is my main means of transportation. However, I like the idea of preserving the mechanical operation and appearance of the bike (v-brakes require adding brake stop, leave empty braze-ons).

Is it ridiculous to think I can get great braking from a new set of cantilevers?

For example the Tektro CR720... http://www.tektro.com/_english/01_products/01_prodetail.php?pid=5&sortname=Brake&sort=1&fid=2

What are your thoughts?

261615261616261617

Some cantilevers are crap. I've had a few older mountain bikes with cantis that were pretty bad. That said, good cantilevers are just fine. I love my old XTR cantilevers and my Tektro 720's. Set up right, with good pads, canti's can be all the brake you need. I'm very heavy (~275 lbs right now), ride heavy old mountain bikes (for touring and commuting) and have never not had the stopping power I need, even on descents while fully loaded for touring, and I don't pack light!