General Cycling Discussion - German bikes in the USA.

I mean, like, where are they? German cars are so popular. Why are German bikes such Hen's Teeth?

Personally, I really like the German Trekking style of bike.....at least form what I've seen on the web.

I have a Porsche mountain bike frame and fork that I'd give you a good deal on.

I have a Porsche mountain bike frame and fork that I'd give you a good deal on.

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit...

Because there are also no American bikes in the USA. Very few, anyway. There would be no advantage to having a German brand of bike becasue it would be made in the same Chainese or Taiwanese factory as an 'American' bike.

Also, the German or Dutch trekking bikes are not popular in the USA as the marketing is built around making all riders pretend to be Tour de France racers. And so the bikes purchased for a few decades now have been mostly impractical 'toys,' hence the desire and infastructure necessary to use a bike for anything more than recreational putting around is rare. People visiting a bike shop would lift up one trekking bike and laugh about the weight and move on to a lighter and much less useful and convenient bike next to it.

THats my $000,000.02, anyway.

It is indeed sad that the USA does not have a more prominent cycling culture. This is why we are so fat.

It is indeed sad that the USA does not have a more prominent cycling culture. This is why we are so fat.

Partly why, yes.

Just exactly what are we talking about? Focus is a German company aren't they? They make a full line of Road, Mountain, Urban and Treking bikes. If someone is looking for a Grandma dutch bike the reason should be obvious, you have to walk one as much as ride one if there are any hills involved.

If the question is why aren't there more old style heavy Dutch style bikes it is the same as why aren't there more Model As or Model Ts anymore. Yes they can be viewed as having a "style" of their own but in bicycles weight is the enemy. No you might not need a 15 pound CF racing bike but there are lots of quality bikes made by Focus and many others that will do the job of a Granny bike at half the weight and just as much duribility. In the US the market place has spoken and people have moved on to MTB, Hybreds, Road, Urban, Utility bikes made of better materials for less money.

No one would suggest you would ride better or enjoy it more if you were 20 pounds heavier why would we assume adding 20 pounds to a bike would make it more enjoyable? The riding public has just moved on and the ones that want old Granny bikes or even Penny/Farthings can buy them for companies that deal in speciality bikes.

So are we talking about German Bikes or Dutch Bikes?

German VDO computers on my three American bikes.

I have two German bikes...one was actually made in Taiwan...just like my American "brand" bikes.

Aaron :)

Just exactly what are we talking about? Focus is a German company aren't they? They make a full line of Road, Mountain, Urban and Treking bikes. If someone is looking for a Grandma dutch bike the reason should be obvious, you have to walk one as much as ride one if there are any hills involved.

If the question is why aren't there more old style heavy Dutch style bikes it is the same as why aren't there more Model As or Model Ts anymore. Yes they can be viewed as having a "style" of their own but in bicycles weight is the enemy. No you might not need a 15 pound CF racing bike but there are lots of quality bikes made by Focus and many others that will do the job of a Granny bike at half the weight and just as much duribility. In the US the market place has spoken and people have moved on to MTB, Hybreds, Road, Urban, Utility bikes made of better materials for less money.

No one would suggest you would ride better or enjoy it more if you were 20 pounds heavier why would we assume adding 20 pounds to a bike would make it more enjoyable? The riding public has just moved on and the ones that want old Granny bikes or even Penny/Farthings can buy them for companies that deal in speciality bikes.

So are we talking about German Bikes or Dutch Bikes?

I never mentioned anything about "Dutch Bikes"

I just find it interesting that no German bicycle company has established any kind of niche in this country.....ZERO PENETRATION into the market place.
It's ironic considering how popular German cars and Motorcycles are in this country, "German Engineering" has a cult following here.

I only mentioned Trekking Bikes because they seem to be very popular in N. Europe but somewhat obscure here, and they seem like great bikes......although, as I type this I realize that the 29'er Adventure Bike concept that is gaining popularity around here could be seen as an American Trekking bike.

This is interesting, almost every bike they sell is named after American cities, but I've never seen one. http://www.staiger-fahrrad.de/de/STAIGER-Trekking-Line-74,3169.html?css=staiger

I just find it interesting that no German bicycle company has established any kind of niche in this country.....ZERO PENETRATION into the market place.
It's ironic considering how popular German cars and Motorcycles are in this country, "German Engineering" has a cult following here.


And yet you scoff at my Porsche frameset which was, indeed, manufactured in Germany.

And yet you scoff at my Porsche frameset which was, indeed, manufactured in Germany.

I retract my scoff. It was out of line.

This is interesting, almost every bike they sell is named after American cities, but I've never seen one. http://www.staiger-fahrrad.de/de/STAIGER-Trekking-Line-74,3169.html?css=staiger

I have a 2003 Staiger Florida.

Aaron :)

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/2310/2910368300066886751S600x600Q85.jpg

I retract my scoff. It was out of line.

If it wasn't so sturdy it might have sold better. Everybody who rode it loved the way that it handled but they also thought that it was too heavy.

Is it this .... http://www.topspeed.com/cars/porsche/porsche-bike-s-and-rs-ar112892.html

Or one of these? .... http://www.porsche-bike.net/

I have a 2003 Staiger Florida.

Aaron :)


How do you like it? I saw a Staiger come up for sale in the local Craigslist (an El Paso? I think) and I'm kicking myself for not jumping on it because I've never heard of it. But now I'm thinking, Germans are known for their engineering, why wouldn't they make a good bicycle?

How do you like it? I saw a Staiger come up for sale in the local Craigslist (an El Paso? I think) and I'm kicking myself for not jumping on it because I've never heard of it. But now I'm thinking, Germans are known for their engineering, why wouldn't they make a good bicycle?

Go check out reliability reports for BMW and Volkswagen cars and you might rethink that statement.

I lived in Germany for a couple of years and used to really like Kettler bikes. But the ones I've seen from the past 10 years or so just strike me as ugly and overpriced. I.e., a 36lb aluminum bike with lower-end Shimano components (and a resin chainguard) shouldn't cost $1400. http://www.kettlerusa.com/bikes/women/4374

Is it this .... http://www.topspeed.com/cars/porsche/porsche-bike-s-and-rs-ar112892.html

Or one of these? .... http://www.porsche-bike.net/

None of the above.

Mine was produced in around 1997 or 1998 by Votec. It was a front suspension mountain bike with a HUGE double triple crown front fork that I suspect is what made it so heavy but also rigidly controlled the front wheel. It came with mostly Sachs components and Magura hydraulic rim brakes.

I got it real cheap after making a deal with Porsche to service the bikes.

I never mentioned anything about "Dutch Bikes"

I just find it interesting that no German bicycle company has established any kind of niche in this country.....ZERO PENETRATION into the market place.
It's ironic considering how popular German cars and Motorcycles are in this country, "German Engineering" has a cult following here.

I only mentioned Trekking Bikes because they seem to be very popular in N. Europe but somewhat obscure here, and they seem like great bikes......although, as I type this I realize that the 29'er Adventure Bike concept that is gaining popularity around here could be seen as an American Trekking bike.

My friend had a Rixe bought at the Bicycle Exchange in Cambridge in the mid 1950s, and of course there were loads of Sears 3-speeds built by Steyr in the 1960s. I had a distributor that brought in some Kalkhoff frames in the late 1970s, but by that time the mark was really strong against the dollar and it didn't make competitive sense against the Yen. Ever since then, you must remember, the German manufacturing economy is really based on taking care of the workers and on protecting the home environment. Der Grune Punkt is based on every single item manufactured in Germany eventually coming back to the maker for recycling, and these costs are built into the price. So, buy a German bike and support the German environment; buy a German bike and support German national healthcare and pensions. Buy an Asian bike and you don't pay for any such things.

Does anyone have a BMW bike?

Aside from the fact that bikes are considered 'toys' by the vast majority of America, and that most of the LBS' that I've seen cater to the higher end roadies and mtb crowds, with a little bit of comfort bike and hybrids (full spectrum) thrown in, it's quite probable that the average person doesn't know which brand is 'decent/good' or which are the equivalent of Magna/Next.

How do you like it? I saw a Staiger come up for sale in the local Craigslist (an El Paso? I think) and I'm kicking myself for not jumping on it because I've never heard of it. But now I'm thinking, Germans are known for their engineering, why wouldn't they make a good bicycle?

It is a good, solid, well thought out bike. It is similar in construction to any one of several non German brands. The biggest thing I like about it, is unlike US spec bikes it comes fully equipped with racks, fenders, lights, dyno hub, bell and a pump. Buy a US spec bike and you usually have to add all that stuff on at a pretty significant cost.

I bought a Redline R530 city bike and nearly doubled the cost of the bike by adding a dyno hub, lights and such.

Aaron :)

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44491/2253513710066886751S500x500Q85.jpg

German Tout Terrain Bike frame/forks, are Imported and sold by Peter White.

Of note their Silk Road,a Disc Brake Trekking frame , rack welded on.

German Cars have a Dealer network, in the US.. bikes have not,
and less competitively priced as Euro is more than the dollar.

[vs the Asian contract builders, used by most brands]

I lived in Germany for a couple of years and used to really like Kettler bikes. But the ones I've seen from the past 10 years or so just strike me as ugly and overpriced. I.e., a 36lb aluminum bike with lower-end Shimano components (and a resin chainguard) shouldn't cost $1400. http://www.kettlerusa.com/bikes/women/4374

That bike probably sells for 1/2-2/3rds that cost in Europe, I checked a UK website (http://kettlerdirect.co.uk/product-details.asp?type=city-countrybicycles) and the equivalent bike was ~$750 delivered to a UK address. FWIW the EU model appears to be called Sentiero. I am sure a huge part of that cost is import fees and freight to get small batches to the US.

Aaron :)

Makes sense.

The Silk Road looks cool, It seems like in might have inspired the Surly Troll.

That bike probably sells for 1/2-2/3rds that cost in Europe, I checked a UK website (http://kettlerdirect.co.uk/product-details.asp?type=city-countrybicycles) and the equivalent bike was ~$750 delivered to a UK address. FWIW the EU model appears to be called Sentiero. I am sure a huge part of that cost is import fees and freight to get small batches to the US.

Aaron :)
That makes sense...and $750 is a lot more reasonable price for that bike. Which would make it roughly equivalent to the Novara Transfer ($699). http://www.rei.com/product/808786/novara-transfer-bike-2012

I would almost consider the Novara Transfer an upgrade it has an IGH, which typically adds to the price compared to a derailleur equipped bike. If you take the Sentiero and remove the VAT it gets down to around $600 or so. VAT in the UK is 20%. Most reasonable quality hybrids in the US are in the ~$500 range, by the time you add fenders, racks and a kickstand you are pushing the $600+ range, add in a dyno hub and decent lights an you are in for close to $800. :(

I have been fortunate in that most of my fully equipped Euro spec bikes have been purchased used or at a very deep discount when they were discontinued. I have 3 that came fully equipped, and another one that I upgraded.

Aaron :)

I would almost consider the Novara Transfer an upgrade it has an IGH, which typically adds to the price compared to a derailleur equipped bike. If you take the Sentiero and remove the VAT it gets down to around $600 or so. VAT in the UK is 20%. Most reasonable quality hybrids in the US are in the ~$500 range, by the time you add fenders, racks and a kickstand you are pushing the $600+ range, add in a dyno hub and decent lights an you are in for close to $800. :(

I have been fortunate in that most of my fully equipped Euro spec bikes have been purchased used or at a very deep discount when they were discontinued. I have 3 that came fully equipped, and another one that I upgraded.

Aaron :)
Yeah, I was surprised by the specs and price of the Transfer - $699 with dynohub and IGH and fenders and rack is a steal.

Ghost Bikes is a German company that's supposedly well-known for mountain bikes and have recently added road bikes. I think the Race Lector Comp is absolutely beautiful...

http://www.ghost-bikes.com/bikes-2012/bike-detail/race-lector-comp/

I think this is a sexy bike... http://www.ghost-bikes.com/bikes-2012/bike-detail/speedline-lector-9000/ She'd be fun with trekking bars.

Yeah, I was surprised by the specs and price of the Transfer - $699 with dynohub and IGH and fenders and rack is a steal.

$699 would be a good price, I think, but you never know about the details on a Novara (bottom brackets and headsets, pedals, etc.). If you like this type of machine you could also look at Breezers' Transportation line, which has a reputation for quality. Not remotely German, though.

This may be off topic, but I don't understand how anyone can buy anything German knowing what those people did in the very recent past.

This may be off topic, but I don't understand how anyone can buy anything German knowing what those people did in the very recent past.

I partly agree. WWII and the Holocaust is in my mind anytime anyone mentions Germany. But the fact is, Germany has been an upstanding member of the world community for three generations, and fewer and fewer of the people each year survive who were alive back then.
Similar statements can be made about Russia, China, Japan, etc...

Also, if you put gas in your car in the past 40 years then you have knowingly helped contribute to brutal killings and human rights violations in many countries.

We all have blood on our hands. It needs to be discussed and brought into the open, but there are few viable alternatives from dealing with these countries. All we can do, IMHO, is move into the future trying to make things better - not remain angry over the distant past.

I never mentioned anything about "Dutch Bikes"

I just find it interesting that no German bicycle company has established any kind of niche in this country.....ZERO PENETRATION into the market place.
It's ironic considering how popular German cars and Motorcycles are in this country, "German Engineering" has a cult following here.

I only mentioned Trekking Bikes because they seem to be very popular in N. Europe but somewhat obscure here, and they seem like great bikes......although, as I type this I realize that the 29'er Adventure Bike concept that is gaining popularity around here could be seen as an American Trekking bike.

Then I say again Focus makes a full line of bikes here and is popular. But I doubt that Germany would have any better luck in the US market than US bikes have.

Then I say again Focus makes a full line of bikes here and is popular. But I doubt that Germany would have any better luck in the US market than US bikes have.

Well, I stand corrected. They seem like nice bikes.

This may be off topic, but I don't understand how anyone can buy anything German knowing what those people did in the very recent past.
70 years is not the "very recent past," and I don't think any of what I might spend is going to whatever 90+ year old perpetrators that still might be alive. FWIW, the official car of the PM of Israel is an Audi. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000597208&fid=1725

It's not German but it's still cool. I had a Swiss Army bike for 10 years. My only regret is trading it off, it was really a wonderful bike. Mine was a 1959 model.

http://www.coldwarremarketing.com/vehicles.asp?s=Bicycle

Spend the extra money (if you buy one) and get one that's complete and in good shape. A good one is ~$500. Mine attracted a crowd wherever I went. I'm definitely going to own another one.

I lived in Germany for a couple of years and used to really like Kettler bikes. But the ones I've seen from the past 10 years or so just strike me as ugly and overpriced. I.e., a 36lb aluminum bike with lower-end Shimano components (and a resin chainguard) shouldn't cost $1400. http://www.kettlerusa.com/bikes/women/4374

I found German "city" bikes offered excellent vaule and were perfect for my family's commuting and recreational needs. Pictured is a Vaterland 3 speed purchased new in Heidelberg for 400DM (=$200) in 1999 at the Heidelberg Train Station as well as along the Mississippi River and at Home in Iowa.

I found German "city" bikes offered excellent vaule and were perfect for my family's commuting and recreational needs. Pictured is a Vaterland 3 speed purchased new in Heidelberg for 400DM (=$200) in 1999 at the Heidelberg Train Station as well as along the Mississippi River and at Home in Iowa.

That is a great deal. When I lived near Stuttgart, I was lent a 3 spd city bike; I was generally happy with it, but I did struggle to get up some hills, including the one I lived on. When I returned to Germany a couple of years later I brought my early 90's hard tail mountain bike (with slicks and rack and fenders and dynamo) - a great bike, but since I lived in pancake-flat Kiel this time, it was kind of overkill.

I found German "city" bikes offered excellent vaule and were perfect for my family's commuting and recreational needs.

Pictured are more 3 and 7 speed German bikes used by my family in Germany and the US. All with coaster brake rear as well as front hand brakes. None cost more than $400 new; the Knast 5 speed was a dumpster freebee. All fully equipped with fenders, lights, bell chainguards, rear rack and kickstands.

This may be off topic, but I don't understand how anyone can buy anything German knowing what those people did in the very recent past.
70 years is not the "very recent past," and I don't think any of what I might spend is going to whatever 90+ year old perpetrators that still might be alive. FWIW, the official car of the PM of Israel is an Audi. http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000597208&fid=1725

I agree

HPvelo is a recumbent line of German origin - have a SMGTe and have ridden many of their other models.

I was in Germany a few weeks ago and went into a couple bike shops. They had lots of nice commuter bikes (and some trekking) for reasonable prices already fully outfitted with dynohubs, lights, fenders, racks, etc. Even with VAT they were cheaper then similar bikes here. I'm hoping to go on a bike tour in Europe next year. If I do, instead of renting a bike, I may purchase a bike in Europe, ride my our, and ship it back.