Classic & Vintage - Wheel coming out of true - is the linseed oil to blame?

Last week, I did my first wheel build. Mavic open sport rims, Campagnolo Daytona hubs, 36 Dt Swiss competition spokes (DB) and DT swiss brass nipples. 3X.
Based on the writings of Sheldon Brown, John Allen and Martin Gerritsen (framebuilder who has an excellent website in Dutch) I prepped the spokes with linseed oil, I laced everything up, tensioned everything nice and even until all spokes had the same pitch and then trued the wheels in the frame. I then took the wheels out, stretched the spokes, crunched them in pairs and treated the spoke heads with a punch to settle them in the hubs. Then final tensioning and truing.

So far, so good. However, after about a 100 km's (two training rides and one 30 km commute in a veritable monsoon) I pulled the wheels out of the frame, because I had some brake rub. I expected nothing serious, but boy, the wheels were a mess! Tension all over the place, and some spokes were just slack, with two or three windings of the thread showing!

What went wrong? Tension not high enough? Should I've left the linseed oil to dry some more? Do I need loctite?

Anyway, I tensioned and trued them once again, and now they seemed to hold up fine, but two rides isn't exactly long enough to tell wether I got it right.

Please share your wheelbuilding tips!

Sounds like spoke wind-up to me.

If you weren't careful to keep the spokes from twisting while you were tensioning them, then each spoke had a different amount of twist inside depending on the friction of its nipple. After some training rides, the bumping and jostling allowed that built-up twist to come undone, loosening each spoke by a random amount.

You'll probably be fine if you just let down the tension in each wheel then repeat the tensioning and truing steps, being careful to avoid spoke wind-up. The way I like to do that is to hold the middle of the spoke in one hand while tensioning it with the other. When adding tension to a spoke, twist the spoke wrench until you stop feeling the middle twist. Note about how far that was, add the tension you want, then back off by the same amount as before to undo the twisting. This will keep the total twist in each spoke to about zero.

Alternately, just always tighten 1/4 turn further than desired, then back off 1/4 turn. It'll be about the same effect.

Not that familiar with the Daytona hubs.
Questions would be besides the spokes untorquing (as explained above) is were the spoke elbows loose or firm at the hub?
DT for a while changed their spoke elbow length none for the better.
They then reduced it a bit but stock does hang around on shelves.

Retrue the wheel of course with the tire off and spoke heads exposed.
Check the tension, if not with a gauge, compare to similar wheels you have.

Check the dish of you tighten a 1/2 turn all around, and ride around the block, if you hear the "tink, tink, tink" sound then recheck as the spokes are adjusting themselves.
Many experienced wheelbuilders have various ways of dealing with this, and all help, but nothing beats just a ride around the block.

I stress relieve, seat the spoke heads, etc, when building using this guy's technique. I am still relatively new at this but so far none of my wheels have come out of true. This technique is easy to follow and has been very successful for me so far: http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm

+1 on spoke windup. If you ever build up a wheel with aero profile/bladed spokes, you will get an idea on how much a spoke can wind up when you tension them as you will see the twist on the bladed spoke really easy. On plain, non-bladed spokes, it is harder to tell if they are twisting but sometimes you can detect a twisting pattern on the legnth of the spoke as there are subltle markings and a a sort of grain that follows the legnth of the spoke. Best thing to do is to have your fingers of your free hand on the spoke right below the nibbple when you turn the spoke wrench and you will have an idea if it is twisting and how much you have to turn back the wrench to undo the twist after each tightening turn of the spoke wrench.

Chombi

I too just built up some A23s and Daytonas.

I made sure to prevent wind up by doing the 1/4 over, then 1/4 back, but I also knew it would be out of true after a few rides because the hub holes on daytonas are a bit tighter to get spokes through and seat/notch.

I'm gonna bet that it was low tension, I grease the nipple head to make things go a little smoother. Did you make sure the wheel was true radially? I strongly recommend the park tensiometer if you plan to build wheels. It is cheep and it will allow you to learn what good tension should feel like. You need to match paired spokes also (parallel on same side), this is critical to good wheel strength.

I found the 1/4 overturn then back is not fool proof. To release wind up, I put the end of the axle on a piece of carpet and push on the rim, working myself around the whole rim. Flip over and do the other side. You'll hear the spokes unwind.

I like the Park tensioner to get you in the ballpark. After that, plucking the spokes works best to get the tension equal. All the front spokes should have the same pitch. Drive side will have a much higher pitch than the non-drive side.

I have found the most important thing in keeping a wheel true is even tension. The commuter that I beat has perfectly true wheels for the last three years.

Also, wind up will eventually cause your spokes to snap at the elbows because of the increased stress.

It wasn't the linseed oil. I'd say that what you've just experienced is perfectly normal stress relief. Are you a lighter rider? It can certainly take a few tens of miles for all the stress and wind-up to work its way out of a wheel. Detension, retension watching the wind-up, and enjoy.

was it raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil? BLO is what you want for spoke threads cause it will actually "cure" (which is to say: harden) over time and act as the "cheap Loctite" you are looking for.
Raw linseed oil will act only as a lubricant to your spoke threads, AFAIK, and that's not what you want...lube alone is good for outside of nipples, spoke threads want a lube that hardens.

Thats not my experience. I use antiseize. A properly tensioned wheel shouldn't detention enough to loosen. Plenty of people use grease or plain ol triflow.

was it raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil? BLO is what you want for spoke threads cause it will actually "cure" (which is to say: harden) over time and act as the "cheap Loctite" you are looking for.
Raw linseed oil will act only as a lubricant to your spoke threads, AFAIK, and that's not what you want...lube alone is good for outside of nipples, spoke threads want a lube that hardens.

I'll take a properly tensioned stress relieved wheel and pass on the hardeners, JMO.....

You know, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I also don't think the twisted spokes are so much to blame b/c you would have relieved a lot of that when you "stretched the spokes, crunched them in pairs". Linseed oil is fine. I've been told to use that, WS Spoke Prep (what I mostly use), chain lube (DT certification class), beeswax, whatever. If you've ever tried to file down a piece of brass you know that it's what we call "self-lubricating". All this just goes to show that reading something on the web is no substitute for actual practice and experience--that's why you wanted to build them up yourself in the first place, right? You built them using reasonable practices, performed a rolling stress-relieving (otherwise known is riding), and then re-trued and tensioned them. Sounds like you did just fine.

You say you tensioned the spokes evenly, but don't say how tight. I think cyclotoine and iab can't be faulted for recommending a tension meter, but buying one may be overkill if you don't plan on doing a lot of this. I'm sure your LBS will measure your tensions for you in less than 60 seconds, and you certainly can have them too tight. Mavic rims are always cracking from overzealous tensioning (I know I did it once or twice). You also describe stressing and relieving steps, but it matters how you do these things. Think of it this way: the process is what's important. Be consistent, build some more wheels, try changing one thing about how you do it and see what works. I can guarantee that after you've built a dozen wheels they'll be coming out better, and with any luck all of them will have been rideable. You can get one cheap front wheel and just take it apart and build it back up again a few times. [BTW, don't ever slack off all the tension on a wheel you care about. That's just asking for trouble]

The product here is not the wheels--the product is you.

I found the 1/4 overturn then back is not fool proof.

Agreed. That's why I prefer the "hold the spoke in your other hand, actually see how much wind-up you need to back off of" method. But, the "1/4 turn" rule is better than nothing, I think.


Thats not my experience. I use antiseize. A properly tensioned wheel shouldn't detention enough to loosen. Plenty of people use grease or plain ol triflow.

+1 PP. I, too, use anti-seize -- the same stuff I put on the caliper mount screws when I replace the brakes on my car. If spoke wind-up were the culprit in the OP's wheel, it wouldn't need to go slack to loosen -- the spoke is constantly trying to unscrew itself! Just normal little bumps can provide enough opportunity.

About 2000 miles now on my most recently built wheels (CR-18 rims, DT Rev spokes, Tiarga hubs with new ball bearings) and no re-truing. I had high hopes when there were no popping or pinging noises on the first ride. Now I'm just looking for a good excuse to build up another wheelset. Maybe tubular this time... :love:

I've used boiled linseed oil as spoke prep for 25 years and have never had it contribute to the wheel coming out of true. As others have mentioned, it's probable that you had some unwanted stresses in your wheel when you thought you were done. I do the sideloading method on both sides, and then I squeeze parallel pairs of spokes on both sides of the wheel, check for true, and repeat. Never had a problem.

Thanks, all. Unworthy1, it turns out that the oil is the uncooked, cold pressed kind - I bought it at an organic market! None of the sites I visited mentioned the difference between cooked and uncooked anyway. I now believe twisting to be the major culprit.

Cycletoine, the true both radially and sideways was within half a millimeter.

Captain blight, I'm not a clyde at 65-70 kilo's (what's that in imperial? 140-150? lbs.?), and certainly these wheels are overkill for me.

To conclude, next build I'm going to do my stress relieving more rigorous and watch out for spoke twisting.

For what it's worth, I've tried the linseed oil thing only twice, and it didn't work out for me. I usually build pretty good wheels, but I'm not so good at it that I can expect them to stay true for ever. And linseed oil makes them hard to true after the oil dries. I'm sure it's great for the experts, but for the dilettante DIY'er like me, regular old grease or oil seems to be a lot easier and better both in the short run and in the long run.

I like that web site too, Lostarchitect. Tons of great advice on that site. One thing you didn't mention I don't think, Italuminium ...but I'm fairly sure you did.... was "improving the spoke line" at the hub. Not doing so can leave a bit of un-wanted slack in the spokes. FWIW.

Boiled linseed oil is not boiled or cooked. Chemical additives are used to speed drying so that it acts like some other oils do when they're boiled. I read it on the Internet, so it must be true.

Maybe true GB. Though I've read they heat it. I save mine for wood working.

I'll add that my method for preventing wind up is holding squeezing the spoke and tightening (1/4 over then back) the nipple like others have mentioned. For stress relief, I place the rim parallel to the ground with the axle as the fulcrum and lightly press down on opposing sides of the rim. This method works better than almost any other method for me. Just be careful, it's not hard to collapse and taco a wheel this way.

..1/4 overturn then back is not fool proof ...Park tensioner to get you in the ballpark ...wind up will eventually cause your spokes to snap at the elbows because of the increased stress.

Thanks - This explains allot of my wheel problems - I am a heavy guy and recently bought a new set of wheels with better quality 14ga spokes - I was worried for the first few rides as I heard various quite pops and tings of my spokes - I kept my spoke tool one me and made just a very few adjustments during my first rides - All is well now - Point is even the best sets of wheels will need adjustments the first few rides...

I'm not a very experienced wheel builder, but, I used some "spoke prep" too, Unworthy1. My question on this stuff is, are you supposed to let it completely dry...doesn't seem to...before adding nipples? Is it supposed to act as a lubricant? A thread lock? An anti-seize?

I'm not a very experienced wheel builder, but, I used some "spoke prep" too, Unworthy1. My question on this stuff is, are you supposed to let it completely dry...doesn't seem to...before adding nipples? Is it supposed to act as a lubricant? A thread lock? An anti-seize?

All of the above. Apply it wet so it lubes at first. Later on it will harden and adhere to the nips. I don't have a problem using this kind of stuff if it is readily available. A lot of people will say that they don't want to use anything that adds resistance to trueing down the line. I mostly use anti-seize or grease because it's cheap and works just as well. However, I would not use only triflow since that stuff washes away really easily.

was it raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil? BLO is what you want for spoke threads cause it will actually "cure" (which is to say: harden) over time and act as the "cheap Loctite" you are looking for.
Raw linseed oil will act only as a lubricant to your spoke threads, AFAIK, and that's not what you want...lube alone is good for outside of nipples, spoke threads want a lube that hardens.

Say what??? Why would you want a lube that hardens? That's the opposite of what you want.

Say what??? Why would you want a lube that hardens? That's the opposite of what you want.

That's kind of the argument here, whether the thread locking aspect of linseed oil or spoke prep is really needed, but I tend to agree with you.

I thought the argument for Linseed oil or spoke prep, is that you do want something that hardens, at least a bit. If you use a lubricant on spoke threads, is there a chance of the nipples loosening? I don't know. Just asking.

I thought the argument for Linseed oil or spoke prep, is that you do want something that hardens, at least a bit. If you use a lubricant on spoke threads, is there a chance of the nipples loosening? I don't know. Just asking.

It's a constant debate, kind of like a debate between bike materials. If you search the forums, people agree to disagree and the only thing you can draw from it is that some kind prep is better than nothing. I haven't used spoke prep for my last 6 wheel builds and they are just fine. If your wheel is at the proper high tension and that tension is even, your wheel shouldn't detension enough to loosen a spoke in normal riding circumstances. If it does, then you are probably testing the wheel's capabilities.

The argument is that at first it lubes, helping with the lacing and mitigating some of the twist etc, and then hardens to a semi-solid state that permits truing but reduces the loosening of the nipple. My question was: how long should it harden? From my painting gf I understand that linseed based oil paint takes a week to dry, I expect that on the threads it takes a little less then that.

I would expect it to dry faster on canvas, exposed to circulating air, than inside a spoke nipple. I realize there is a lot more of it on a painting than in the spoke threads, but the surface area through which it is drying, from the spoke nipple, is really tiny. I wouldn't expect it to be fully dry for some months. But why speculate, when you can experiment?

When it's dry, it really is dry. Maybe not dry like powder, but definitely solid. And it will remain stuck to whatever it dried on. The wheels I used it on, when I went to true them after a few years, the nipples were so hard to turn that I soon rounded them completely. Not the desired effect.

This did not happen from wind-up. The spokes were much too loose. If you don't tighten them much more this time, they'll do the same thing and you'll eventually fatigue the spokes.

See if you can find a hand-built wheel and feel the tension on it.

I compared tension to a few handbuilds I have, both vintage and modern. The hubs came from a true and tight wheelset, with worn rims, and I build them accordingly. Besides, I trust the pitch theory and I instinctly trust it, having been arond music and instruments all my life. The initial tension was right, but stress relieving, seating etc. perhaps not so much.

The wheels I used it on, when I went to true them after a few years, the nipples were so hard to turn that I soon rounded them completely. Not the desired effect.
This is the pertinent statement, I think. You want the nipples to be able to turn against the rim and against the spoke threads. A year or two from now you may still want them to turn.

Someone may correct me but I cna't imagine a spoke nipple unscrewing from the spoke by itself with normal use. Pressure from the rim strip should provide some level of friction.

Even, proper tension is what you strive for. Anti-seize is best, though any lube is better than none.

This is the pertinent statement, I think. You want the nipples to be able to turn against the rim and against the spoke threads. A year or two from now you may still want them to turn.

Someone may correct me but I cna't imagine a spoke nipple unscrewing from the spoke by itself with normal use. Pressure from the rim strip should provide some level of friction.

No need to correct, you are spot on. However, I don't think rim strip contacts the nipples unless you have crappy rim strip. I always use the velox cloth stuff.

My "stress relieving" as well as seating the spokes and adjusting their lines consists of leaning on the vertical wheel with all my weight a number of times, rotating it all around as I bring the wheel up to tension, to remove spoke windup. That's how I was taught. I don't use lube on the nipples most of the time, but I doubt its causing the problem.

I suspect uneven or inadequate tension and / or spoke windup, though its not unusual for a wheel to need a touchup after the first couple of rides.

However, I don't think rim strip contacts the nipples unless you have crappy rim strip.
You are right, of course, I was wrong about that, but not for the reason you mentioned. It depends on whether the rim has wells for the nipples. Some do, some don't, and I was thinking they didn't because the last rim I strung up didn't. Duh.

A quick comment for Italinumiuminumimim's sake about being a musician and familiar with plucked strings. This may be obvious to him or anyone else, but perhaps it isn't. Because the spokes lay across each other, when you pluck one you are actually plucking both that one and the other spoke touching it at the outermost cross point. The sound produced can be deceiving. You need to damp that other spoke for the plucked-note technique to be useful.

Thanks - This explains allot of my wheel problems - I am a heavy guy and recently bought a new set of wheels with better quality 14ga spokes - I was worried for the first few rides as I heard various quite pops and tings of my spokes - I kept my spoke tool one me and made just a very few adjustments during my first rides - All is well now - Point is even the best sets of wheels will need adjustments the first few rides...

Hand built or factory built? Because even the highest quality factory built will be wound up. You have to go to a Psimet or Peter White or Earle Young to get a great wheel.

You are right, of course, I was wrong about that, but not for the reason you mentioned. It depends on whether the rim has wells for the nipples. Some do, some don't, and I was thinking they didn't because the last rim I strung up didn't. Duh.

A quick comment for Italinumiuminumimim's sake about being a musician and familiar with plucked strings. This may be obvious to him or anyone else, but perhaps it isn't. Because the spokes lay across each other, when you pluck one you are actually plucking both that one and the other spoke touching it at the outermost cross point. The sound produced can be deceiving. You need to damp that other spoke for the plucked-note technique to be useful.

Oh yeah! I forgot about those wheels!

Has anybody tried to mark each spoke so that wind-up can be seen visually -- by dragging the side of a sharpie over spokes to make a solid black line along the length of each one? Sharpie lines can be removed later with alcohol. I haven't done it, but the thought occurred to me.

The initial tension was right, but stress relieving, seating etc. perhaps not so much.

All that should be done concurrently... and more than once.

I am following advice from somebody who convinced me (long ago) that the "proper" thing to put on spoke threads is exactly this: something that acts as a lubricant (to reduce friction on threads during initial tensioning/truing) and will then harden somewhat (not completely) so the nipples might be less likely to unscrew...
That's a little like tuning your guitar then soldering the tuning machines.

I'm no Peter White and I've built nowhere near as many wheels, but the ones I have built have stayed true. I don't use any locking material. Never figured it made sense, no matter what some old-timer told you once. No offense to old-timers, seein' as how I sort of are one. :D

Has anybody tried to mark each spoke so that wind-up can be seen visually -- by dragging the side of a sharpie over spokes to make a solid black line along the length of each one? Sharpie lines can be removed later with alcohol. I haven't done it, but the thought occurred to me.

Haven't done it, but it should work. Probably very similar to truing bladed spokes which is really easy to see wind up.

.......is from Jobst Brandt on usenet @ http://yarchive.net/bike/spoke_lube.html

It's long, but very funny, if you follow this stuff at all, so I've pasted it here.



I have built plenty of 24 spoke TT wheels for the road and track. I
used no special elixirs on the spoke threads and the wheels held up.

>>> Without some kind of thread locking, the whole wheel can unwind
>>> entirely in the course of riding it.

>> So? And this is the sort of wheel we get from Wheelsmith? Things
>> are worse than I thought. I also hear Ritchey is making an
>> asymmetric rim to go with his 9-speed hubs. Who needs this stuff?

> "You should ride equipment just like mine."

Oh, what do you ride?

>>> This causes some otherwise sensible mechanics to try some truly
>>> horrid things to lock the nipples, usually at the expense of any
>>> easy subsequent truing of the wheel. Spoke prep does double duty as
>>> lubricant and thread locker. It's a viscous goop that comes in a
>>> jar and is applied to the spoke threads and allowed to dry before
>>> building.

>> As I said, I have built and rebuilt wheels for all sorts of people
>> and never used the stuff. I have never had a complaint of a wheel
>> getting loose spokes. In fact these people have often mentioned
>> that the wheels worked better than any they had tried.

> Building durable wheels with 32 or 36 spokes is something that just
> about anyone can do with proper instruction. There's no real point
> in chest thumping.

Why is your chest thumping. You shouldn't sniff that ammonia in the
smoke prep. Whether anyone can build wheels or not is not the subject
here but rather your insistence that without glue, wheels will fail.

> When I worked at Wheelsmith, the stuff I found challenging was
> repairing damaged wheels. I got pretty good at it and salvaged many
> wheels that other builders would have opted for rebuilds. I don't
> do so much of that work any more, but occasionally I'll have to fix
> a damaged wheel on a ride with a minimum of tools. I appreciate
> having spoke prepped wheels that don't self-destruct when ridden,
> even if spokes are missing or the rim is damaged. This is
> particularly important in off-road riding.

Now its "repaired wheels". This is a moving target. Of course your
suggestion is that I never repair wheels and don't understand the
nuances. Well my dad can beat up your dad... etc, and the rest of the
threats one might hear on the grade school yard. There is a whole
section in "the Bicycle Wheel" on repairing pretzled wheels. I didn't
invent that part from theoretical first principles either.

>>> For many wheels, with components thoughtfully chosen and carefully
>>> built, spoke prep is not essential to crafting a strong wheel that
>>> remains true. We can agree that some kind of lubricant on the
>>> spoke threads and between the nipple and the rim is essential to
>>> properly tighten the spokes.

>> I propose that none of these wheels, need the stuff and wheels that
>> routinely have spokes that are loose with every turn are not ones
>> under discussion.

> You cite everything I wrote, except this:

> Look for something without sulphur, which corrodes brass in the
> nipples. Spoke prep is a super lubricant, so it's easy to bring the
> spokes to high tension. It's inert, so it's going to stay a good
> lubricant for any future truing. It also has a mild thread locking
> action that keeps spokes from unwinding if the rim should deform
> (whether by inherent weakness, broken spoke or bent rim). This
> gives the wheel a certain robustness-- a damaged wheel can continue
> to be ridden and not self destruct as non-prepped wheels might.

You say that as if sulphur were a lurking threat, omnipresent and
ready to ruin the unwary rider's wheels. I use 90W hypoid gear oil
now and then and have never had any problem with corrosion. Hypoid
oil has substantial sulphur compounds in it and even smells like it.
How about stopping the BS now. This is so much fear mongering.

> Is it not relevant to the discussion? I think it's the central
> point. Many wheels may not need a thread lock to be stable under
> typical use, BUT, if the wheel looses spokes or the rim is damaged,
> what then? Start walking?

I'm afraid. If I don't throw smoke prep over my left shoulder, I'm
sure to crash with a collapsed wheel.

>>> What if there were self locking nipples -- like an aircraft
>>> fastener. Would you be willing to pay 5 cents/nipple extra for a
>>> bit of insurance? I think you would say no, spokes unwinding is not
>>> a problem on my bike as I ride the thoughtfully-chosen, well-built
>>> wheels. That's OK. But don't begrudge that people who say yes, I
>>> want that insurance. Spoke prep gives that insurance for much less
>>> per spoke. I take my riding and my equipment seriously and I prize
>>> durability and robustness whether for around town riding or some
>>> place remote.

>> You keep trying to support the notion that most wheels or even some
>> reasonably constructed wheels need a thread lock. They don't. The
>> reason they don't is that a durable wheel must operate with all its
>> spokes substantially tighter than the slackening point at all times.
>> In that condition there is no possibility for nipples to unscrew. The
>> exception is when the bicycle hits an obstacle. These are singular
>> events that often damage the rim. Your admonitions bring the term
>> "fear mongering" to mind where there is no problem.

> I'm not fear mongering, nor did I invent the need for thread locking.
> One can remain blissfully inside the domain where spokes stay tight,
> or circumstances may thrust you outside that cushy envelope. I like
> to use spoke prep on my wheels. To each his own.

I'll tell you who started thread locking juice. It was Rick and Jon
Hjertberg with their wheel building machine. Before they could get
tight spokes with the early Holland Mechanics machine because it
couldn't handle spike twist, they invented the stuff to be able to
ship loose wheels. I was there and observed the problem. In fact the
machine could not true a 1.8mm swaged spoke wheel. It just twisted
the nipples back and fourth an 1/8 of a turn and got nowhere.

That wheels built on the margin of durability could last a little
time was achieved by using linseed oil a long time ago. Using a dry
powdered wax in paste form is what WS markets. Bad wheels need lots
of help to survive.

>>> Your only advice to people is, in effect, "You should ride equipment
>>> just like mine." For many people that's not feasible, and there is
>>> still the issue of spokes loosening when riding with a broken spoke
>>> or a damaged rim. Check around and you'll find that just about
>>> every professional team mechanic uses spokeprep on every wheel.
>>> They're busy people, but they take the time and trouble to use spoke
>>> prep so that the riders have the very best.

>> Oh get off it. I never said that and you saying it doesn't make it
>> true. What is your axe that gets so much grinding here. Do you
>> make smoke prep, and what are you spoking in your pipe anyway?
>> This whole thing sounds a lot like the "DON'T GREASE YOUR CRANK
>> SPINDLES" story. The way you say that, I suspect these guys ought
>> to teach engineering courses, unless they are remnants of the red
>> guard and still burn books.

> Is this a gratuitous rant?

No, it is closer to the facts than you seem to believe. It is bike
mechanics in general who don't read much and wouldn't consult the
library for bike information if it killed them. There are exceptions
but they are few. I still hear from the "leading wheel builders" that
they "pre-stress" their wheels by bending them (pushing down on the
rim). That's about as unclear on the concept of stress relieving as
you can get.

So who was posting what in that long rant? :D (Don't answer that!)

iab - thanks for the name drop - caused me to drop in here. You should stop by! You wouldn't recognize the place!

Didn't read everything in detail....kinda don't care to. Just saw a lot of misc stuff running about that are small pet peeves of mine that I thought I would throw $0.02 on. You don't have to like what I say. I'm the one building nice wheels for money/a living. As a result I tend not to suffer....uh...let's say "armchair quarterbacks".

Building a 32 or 36 or higher spoke count wheel is simple. Especially on older rims. The tensions are extremely low, the rims are super soft, and you can easily make large changes to compensate for imperfect materials.

f' windup. Trying to mark spokes, watch for windup, across and back....that's all cute. debate the theory all you want. If you don't load and unload the spokes they just aren't going to return to neutral. You can't put a spoke in neutral with a wrench.

So wheelbuilders say "push on the rim" and that's it.....yup....that's because it's how we make a living. I only have about 2-3 things that I do that I make certain to point out to everyone who comes into my shop that they are proprietary parts of the process and they are not to share them. Want to know what they are? Build a thousand good wheels and get back to me.

The heavens won't open up and rapture you for building a set without prep/loctite or BLO. debating the use of prep is something best left to big mustache having, skinny jean wearing, hipster kids hanging out at shops between band practice and their gig as a barrista.

I used to build industrial hydraulic and pneumatic cylinders. NFPA style. A lot of cylinders we made went into Nuclear power plant - controlling valves, etc. Our assemblers (including myself at times) didn't brag to government inspectors about how we could tighten a tie rod without the use of antiseize or a torque wrench by simply "plucking it" and listening to the pitch. What's the saying? "In God we trust, all others must bring data"?

Threaded joints are actually extremely complex in design. Proper functioning junctions are dependent upon cleanliness, surface preparation, geometry/fits, etc. Bragging about improperly preparing that joint, "Prep is for people that don't know how to build wheels" is ignorant at best - negligent at worst.

1:36am....my apologies...

Has anybody tried to mark each spoke so that wind-up can be seen visually -- by dragging the side of a sharpie over spokes to make a solid black line along the length of each one? Sharpie lines can be removed later with alcohol. I haven't done it, but the thought occurred to me.

I did this on the last pair of wheels I built, works a treat.

General info for those interested: Linseed oil doesn't dry, it hardens by oxidative polymerisation which feature it has in common with all polyunsaturated oils.

If you want the linseed oil to harden more quickly, add a drop of MEKP (sold as fibreglass resin catalyst in hardware stores), the peroxide activity of the MEKP accelerates the oxidation.

If it hardens so much that it's hard to adjust tension, you can get it off with paint stripper since oxidised oil is basically paint without the pigments in it. Obviously don't use a caustic paint stripper on aluminium rims.

All of the above. Apply it wet so it lubes at first. Later on it will harden and adhere to the nips. I don't have a problem using this kind of stuff if it is readily available. A lot of people will say that they don't want to use anything that adds resistance to trueing down the line.

SpokePrep: Just dip the very ends of the spokes into the goop, then twirls them around until there is a thin enough coating that you can still see the tops of the threads. Then put things aside for 10 minutes and let it dry. If you build with it wet it will just get squeezed out the way as you screw the nipples on. Actually, all this is detailed in the instructions. The great thing about SpokePrep is that it is stiff enough to help resist loosening, yet acts as a lubricant. Nipples w/SP turn smoothly and easily, even after 6K miles. I think this is pretty much the rationale Grant Petersen uses for putting beeswax on threaded fasteners.

@lastarchitecht, In the 90s Trek actually sold bikes built with something called "spoke tight", essentially loktite in the nipples. Anytime you wanted to true a wheel you'd have to cut the spoke out and replace it! That lasted for one year until all the bike shops screamed and they got rid of it.

@zandoval, I was told by the DT wheelbuilding clinic guy that standard, 32-spoke wheels should be OK to a bike+rider load of 300 lbs, but that anything over 200 lbs would decrease service life proportionately. Over 220# I usually recommend extra measures.

I'm no expert wheel builder. But, I use a drop of chain lube on each spoke end and on the eyelet of the rim (or dropped on the nipple if no eyelet). I use a Park TM-1, Park WAG-4, Park master spoke wrenches and as much patience as I can muster. I relieve the spokes by squeezing parallel spokes and sometime go a bit past the desired tension and then back (much like tuning a guitar string). I always use DT or Sapim swaged spokes and I don't play with aluminum nipples. My first couple of builds needed touching up after several miles because I did not properly relieve the spokes.

Has anybody tried to mark each spoke so that wind-up can be seen visually -- by dragging the side of a sharpie over spokes to make a solid black line along the length of each one? Sharpie lines can be removed later with alcohol. I haven't done it, but the thought occurred to me.

Good thought, CW, and I did it on the first set of wheels I built. A small piece of tape placed on the spoke, like a little flag, and you get instant visual feedback on how the spoke is acting. I have a bunch of 1/2 pieces of blue masking tape handy right there on the bench. Stick one to the spoke, tune and move to the tape to the next spoke. Or, you can place a little piece of tape on all the spokes.

I'm the one building nice wheels for money/a living. As a result I tend not to suffer....uh...let's say "armchair quarterbacks".


f' windup. Trying to mark spokes, watch for windup, across and back....that's all cute. debate the theory all you want. If you don't load and unload the spokes they just aren't going to return to neutral. You can't put a spoke in neutral with a wrench.

I only have about 2-3 things that I do that I make certain to point out to everyone who comes into my shop that they are proprietary parts of the process and they are not to share them. Want to know what they are? Build a thousand good wheels and get back to me.

... debating the use of prep is something best left to big mustache having, skinny jean wearing, hipster kids hanging out at shops between band practice and their gig as a barrista.


I won't include the whole quote here, because most of it puts me off. There are mostly "arm chair quarterbacks" here, trying to help each other with tips and the benefit of experience. Certainly with a lot less experience than you have. What I get from your post is "I'm the expert, but I'll be damned if I'll share any of my knowledge with you." Your ".02 cents" included pejorative put downs and almost no helpful info. This is one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I've seen here in some time.