Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Paceline People

I admit, I love pacelines. I LOVE the team work, camaraderie, speed, distance, etc. There is a a lot of advantages to a paceline. It does take a lot of skill to ride in one.... no overlapping tires, etc.

Went on a 50 miler with a group of 40 people yesterday and naturally, the group broke up into a few more groups. One we were in for the first 23 miles or so was ok. Some tried to ride in a paceline. Now see, the only reason a paceline really works is if everyone works together. A lot went on in this first 23 miles. Will save you the story but the sucky part was that the people in front were yo-yoing which made it very hard to stay at a solid pace.

Some tips I have learned:

- Dont overlap tires
-if you are pulling, no drops and no arrow bars
- if you are pulling, NO SURGING or yo-yoing. Keep at the correct pace. If you dont, it causes the group to speed up, the last person in the line might get dropped. If you go so, you cause a yoyo effect and everyone hits their brakes.
- if you feel tired at all and are pulling, GET THE HECK OFF THE FRONT. Again, paceline is a TEAM effort.

Case in point: after the second stop, Paisan, myself, Nadja and another guy we picked up. started a paceline. Short pulls and fast. No surging happened, no yoyoing either. Rock solid paceline.

If you enter into a paceline, please remember these tips. It will really make it a negative experience for all and if followed, it will be a great ride.

Two other tips:

1- When you are the person behind the pull rider and they drop off, just keep the pace you are riding. No speed creep.
2- If you are the pull person and it is time for you to pull off, pull to the left, stop pedaling and start pedaling when half of the line passes you.

and I lied:

tip 3- Avoid eating or drinking when pulling!
tip 4: When pulling, you are responsible for the people behind you. Watch out!
tip 5: When your the back person in the line, after a turn or hill, yell "all on" so the pull guy knows.
tip 6: If the paceline needs to turn, the back rider in the line should look back and communicate up.

That is all!

Are we talking a single paceline or a double rotating paceline? Single paceline is much easier a rotational paceline is a whole different animal. Rotating paceline should always have the fast line protected from the wind so depending on wind direction you might me coming off on the right side, I agree with most of the above except when doing long distances you still have to take food and water in but you must learn how to time it, oh and I also believe you can ride the drops if you are like me at 6'1" I'm still giving a good draft....lol

There is a lot of variation in riding.

It actually does work fine if the lead person is on drops or aero bars.

If you have a mix of stronger and weaker riders, it may be advantageous to not rotate. If you're pulling somebody slower than you, you may be able to ride on flats instead of the hoods.

For reasons I have yet to fathom, the group that is going 20 mph and I'm hanging on with my tongue hanging out, if I get to the front, then 14 mph will be too fast and I'll be dropping people off the back.

A lot of the pacelining that I see on club rides is an "every man for himself" style that does not involve trying to keep a group together. Actually pulling slower people without dropping them is its own skill.

The dynamics of a tandem are different, and it's hard to draft a single bike with a tandem. So the general rule is that the tandems draft each other, or always pull, or just ride off by themselves.

...Dont overlap tires
-if you are pulling, no drops and no arrow bars
- if you are pulling...True (or at least, don't use them unless you're in a team of TT'ists or Triathletes)


...Dont overlap tires
-if you are pulling, no drops and no arrow bars
- if you are pulling...?? Not true.


2- If you are the pull person and it is time for you to pull off, pull to the left, stop pedaling and start pedaling when half of the line passes you.Not necessarily true. The correct answer is, "pull off into the windward side". A slightly less correct answer is "pull off to the same side as the person in front of you", but again, not always necessary. The left is done in the USA just because that's how our traffic works.

Just to put Isaac's tips into context, the rides we have have been doing are specifically to get people to reach PR mileage, so our paceline rules are a means to that end. He is not referring to your typical club ride or race paceline. This is a single paceline of a small group of people, most of whom have little or no paceline experience, who are all trying to accomplish a singular goal of helping the weaker riders and each other get stronger. So to do this we determine a pace that the slowest rider should be handle for the mileage we are pushing them to. I've found that most rules are universal but every group has different do's/don't's for their pacelines and very often they are not told to newer riders so the one thing we do before we start each ride is to just make sure what it is we are tying to accomplish and what the rules are.

-No eating or drinking-This is for the guy on the front. I encourage the group to not do it at the front because generally most newer riders tend to stop pedaling or at least slow down when their focus shifts to reaching for the bottle. So to keep the yoyo to a minimum and keep the front riders attention up the road where it should be, I ask everyone to not do it at the front. If you can reach your bottles and pockets and open whatever wrapper without slowing down at the front that is ok, but your at the front for a short period of time so there's no reason to not wait a few minutes. If you're that thirsty or hungry, no big deal, rotate off to the back and get a drink.

-The guy in the back calling "all on" - Again our pacelines are to keep everyone together for the xx mileage, the two places you generally see pacelines split are hills and turns. I tell the lead riders to slow the pace slightly after each of these to allow the group to get back together. While this may slow us down after the hill it actually speeds the group up overall because the slower riders do not feel pressured to sprint up every hill trying to stay on. They know to just get up the hill at their own pace and the group will be not too far away soft pedaling. It also keep everyone safe through turns because you don't have people trying to pass each other in turns in fear that they will allow a gap to open in the group and get dropped. I've been on group rides where every turn became a free for all as the single line exploded into a mass of riders trying to get through the turn and back on to the group.

-The guy in back calling "clear" before turns - Everyone is obviously always responsible for their own safety but I tell the group the guy in front is responsible for navigating the group safely, The guy in the back is responsible for helping him. For example, if we have a turn coming up the guy in back is responsible for telling the guy in front when it is safe from behind to shift lanes and start the turn.

-No aero bars or drops- I personally feel no one should ever use aero bars in a line. Your hands are not near brake levers in an emergency. As for the drops, again our lines are not concentrating on getting from point a to point b the fastest so using drops at the front will not make a difference in speed. Since we are generally pulling weaker riders and often times when things get tough and windy the front is rotating amongst the stronger guys/girls while the weaker riders just sit in. So I tell the group if your at the front you eat the wind for everyone else. Your at the front for a small period of time so eating the wind for those couple of minutes is not a big deal. To put this in perspective we ride with a strong rider who barely breaks 5 foot. On days with particularly nasty headwinds we have to ask her to just stay in back and play tail gunner because noone can get a draft off of her and the guy behind her is actually doing two pulls at the front.

-Pulling off to left/ right- everyone is correct this should be dictated by wind direction but some of our rides have in excess of 50 turns so I would constantly be changing the rotating side. When we get more comfortable working together as a group we will start integrating this but for now I am going with the "keep it simple" rule.

Like I said every group does things differently but these are the rules our little group follows to make sure everyone stays together and enjoys the ride. We've helped alot of people break mileage and speed PR's because there is little to no yo-yo and everyone knows their role in the line and folows it. It often times feels like its a slow pace because you don't have that constant accelaration but its actually a very consistent speed and we often times end up with respectable averages above 16mph for metric and century paces. As we all get stronger and more comfortable working together we'll start working on the double pacelines and picking up the pace. But as a start with a group of riders where the majority have all started cycling in the last 12-18 months I'm real happy with how far our little group has come.

-if you are pulling, no drops and no arrow bars


Question about this one? why no drops, if your in the front fighting the wind for everyone else why not get in a better position to do that? I know nothing of group rides or pacelines so forgive my ignorance.

Drops are fine. Aero bars (although I don't personally use them) are fine also when you are in front, there is still plenty of draft, even with the small riders. The point is whether on the hoods, drops or aero bars, maintain the effort of the pace line, don't speed up.

In a related issue, if you decide to draft off someone, not in a pace line, be sure they know you are drafting. If fact, ask permission and don't be a wheel sucker but take your turn pulling. The first point is for your own safety; the last points are common courtesy.

I'd like to congratulate you two guys for this endeavour. It's great that you're encouraging folks to ride together in a group, learn how to work together, attempt to do so safely and demonstrating a positive presence on the road. Keep it up.

Are we talking a single paceline or a double rotating paceline? Single paceline is much easier a rotational paceline is a whole different animal. Rotating paceline should always have the fast line protected from the wind so depending on wind direction you might me coming off on the right side, I agree with most of the above except when doing long distances you still have to take food and water in but you must learn how to time it, oh and I also believe you can ride the drops if you are like me at 6'1" I'm still giving a good draft....lol

Single train paceline. Everyone works together. The pull person shouldnt be in the drops in my opinion.

Question about this one? why no drops, if your in the front fighting the wind for everyone else why not get in a better position to do that? I know nothing of group rides or pacelines so forgive my ignorance.


Good question: My opinion and thought: It gives everyone a break. As Paisan gives the example of the shorter riders, its hard for a bigger rider behind to get a draft if he is next behind the front person pulling. And I also think it causes more yoyoing. A great example was Saturday when we road in the initial group for the first 20 or so milee. One of the guys would go in their drops or areo bars and surge up. An older guy in red would try to catch him and more people would do the same. Then you lost the point of a paceline. For me pulling, I think about the folks behind me (except when I eat beans the day before :) ) and I suck the wind to give them a break (not that I have any options.... I am a big guy to boot!).

Just to put Isaac's tips into context, the rides we have have been doing are specifically to get people to reach PR mileage, so our paceline rules are a means to that end. He is not referring to your typical club ride or race paceline. This is a single paceline of a small group of people, most of whom have little or no paceline experience, who are all trying to accomplish a singular goal of helping the weaker riders and each other get stronger. So to do this we determine a pace that the slowest rider should be handle for the mileage we are pushing them to. I've found that most rules are universal but every group has different do's/don't's for their pacelines and very often they are not told to newer riders so the one thing we do before we start each ride is to just make sure what it is we are tying to accomplish and what the rules are.

-No eating or drinking-This is for the guy on the front. I encourage the group to not do it at the front because generally most newer riders tend to stop pedaling or at least slow down when their focus shifts to reaching for the bottle. So to keep the yoyo to a minimum and keep the front riders attention up the road where it should be, I ask everyone to not do it at the front. If you can reach your bottles and pockets and open whatever wrapper without slowing down at the front that is ok, but your at the front for a short period of time so there's no reason to not wait a few minutes. If you're that thirsty or hungry, no big deal, rotate off to the back and get a drink.

-The guy in the back calling "all on" - Again our pacelines are to keep everyone together for the xx mileage, the two places you generally see pacelines split are hills and turns. I tell the lead riders to slow the pace slightly after each of these to allow the group to get back together. While this may slow us down after the hill it actually speeds the group up overall because the slower riders do not feel pressured to sprint up every hill trying to stay on. They know to just get up the hill at their own pace and the group will be not too far away soft pedaling. It also keep everyone safe through turns because you don't have people trying to pass each other in turns in fear that they will allow a gap to open in the group and get dropped. I've been on group rides where every turn became a free for all as the single line exploded into a mass of riders trying to get through the turn and back on to the group.

-The guy in back calling "clear" before turns - Everyone is obviously always responsible for their own safety but I tell the group the guy in front is responsible for navigating the group safely, The guy in the back is responsible for helping him. For example, if we have a turn coming up the guy in back is responsible for telling the guy in front when it is safe from behind to shift lanes and start the turn.

-No aero bars or drops- I personally feel no one should ever use aero bars in a line. Your hands are not near brake levers in an emergency. As for the drops, again our lines are not concentrating on getting from point a to point b the fastest so using drops at the front will not make a difference in speed. Since we are generally pulling weaker riders and often times when things get tough and windy the front is rotating amongst the stronger guys/girls while the weaker riders just sit in. So I tell the group if your at the front you eat the wind for everyone else. Your at the front for a small period of time so eating the wind for those couple of minutes is not a big deal. To put this in perspective we ride with a strong rider who barely breaks 5 foot. On days with particularly nasty headwinds we have to ask her to just stay in back and play tail gunner because noone can get a draft off of her and the guy behind her is actually doing two pulls at the front.

-Pulling off to left/ right- everyone is correct this should be dictated by wind direction but some of our rides have in excess of 50 turns so I would constantly be changing the rotating side. When we get more comfortable working together as a group we will start integrating this but for now I am going with the "keep it simple" rule.

Like I said every group does things differently but these are the rules our little group follows to make sure everyone stays together and enjoys the ride. We've helped alot of people break mileage and speed PR's because there is little to no yo-yo and everyone knows their role in the line and folows it. It often times feels like its a slow pace because you don't have that constant accelaration but its actually a very consistent speed and we often times end up with respectable averages above 16mph for metric and century paces. As we all get stronger and more comfortable working together we'll start working on the double pacelines and picking up the pace. But as a start with a group of riders where the majority have all started cycling in the last 12-18 months I'm real happy with how far our little group has come.

Agreed on everything. This man has taught me a lot and had made me stronger, faster, and more thoughtful when riding.

Proper pacing when you go from second in the line to the front is something of an acquired skill. It takes a little practice to do it well. Riders brand new to the experience will sometimes ride more slowly, since they don't always know that they need to compensate for the new wind resistance hit. Ones who think they know what they're doing will overcompensate, assuming they need to work a lot harder at the front than they were when they were drafting, and without realizing it, they've bumped the line's speed up a bit. There's a balance you have to maintain there, and if you find your train is falling off your pace, you're failing at your task.

The part of this I have the hardest time with is slight rises in the road. I tend to try to maintain the same speed over them, only because it's relatively easy to do, and I know what the back of a line feels like when the leaders don't do that. That's when you get a lot of braking and shouts of "slowing!" I try to avoid that sort of thing when I'm at the front. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It just depends on the kind of riders you're with and whether they feel like following your lead.

Good question: My opinion and thought: It gives everyone a break. As Paisan gives the example of the shorter riders, its hard for a bigger rider behind to get a draft if he is next behind the front person pulling. And I also think it causes more yoyoing. A great example was Saturday when we road in the initial group for the first 20 or so milee. One of the guys would go in their drops or areo bars and surge up. An older guy in red would try to catch him and more people would do the same. Then you lost the point of a paceline. For me pulling, I think about the folks behind me (except when I eat beans the day before :) ) and I suck the wind to give them a break (not that I have any options.... I am a big guy to boot!).

I disagree with this. The whole line is going to be moving quicker if everyone, including the person who happens to be at the front, pays some attention to aerodynamics. If someone smaller than me is in the drops ahead of me, I just get in the drops. When we are both in the drops the difference between our sizes is minimised and I can still get a reasonable draft - I've drafted behind a thirteen year-old girl in a pace line and got a certain amount of shelter even though she was in the drops. Admittedly, she's a very fast thirteen year-old girl. And being in the drops won't make you "surge" unless you want to.

Personally, if the object is to get people more comfortable with bike-handling and increase their speed, I'd be encouraging all of them to make use of the drops more. Nothing else they can do will make as big a contribution to their stability and speed as lowering their centre of gravity and getting into a more aerodynamic position.

I disagree with this. The whole line is going to be moving quicker if everyone, including the person who happens to be at the front, pays some attention to aerodynamics. If someone smaller than me is in the drops ahead of me, I just get in the drops. When we are both in the drops the difference between our sizes is minimised and I can still get a reasonable draft - I've drafted behind a thirteen year-old girl in a pace line and got a certain amount of shelter even though she was in the drops. Admittedly, she's a very fast thirteen year-old girl. And being in the drops won't make you "surge" unless you want to.

Personally, if the object is to get people more comfortable with bike-handling and increase their speed, I'd be encouraging all of them to make use of the drops more. Nothing else they can do will make as big a contribution to their stability and speed as lowering their centre of gravity and getting into a more aerodynamic position.


Shame on you. You make a 13 year old girl pull you? Shame on you! :)

What your not telling us is that she slowed down because she heard the huffing and puffing from you. :) lol

SOunds like you have a great ride going with a bunch of great people and more importantly someone who is leading the ride and setting guidlines. I wouldn't have said a thing if I had known this was a ride with a leader. The best rides are the ones where someone is in control, if not a paceline can turn into a complete cluster fart. Good job and keep up the good work.

Shame on you. You make a 13 year old girl pull you? Shame on you! :)

What your not telling us is that she slowed down because she heard the huffing and puffing from you. :) lol

Actually, she can take me anytime. (I mean that in a competitive rather than inappropriate sense, of course, LOL.) she's now fourteen and ranked fourth or fifth in her age-group in the country, last I looked.

Seriously, even if the rider in front is a foot shorter than you, half that will be in the torso, so their saddle will only be six inches lower than yours. Get as low as you can behind them, and you can still get a reasonable tow.

The pull person shouldnt be in the drops in my opinion.

What led you to form that opinion?

[QUOTE=chasm54;14543762Seriously, even if the rider in front is a foot shorter than you, half that will be in the torso, so their saddle will only be six inches lower than yours. Get as low as you can behind them, and you can still get a reasonable tow.[/QUOTE]

+1. I am 6' 2". My GF is 5' even. I draft her and get a decent benefit.

Some of you are missing the point. These rides are not to get from point A to B in our fastest time so increasing aerodynamics doesn't gain us anything because the pace is set at the beginning to xx mph based on the weaker riders ability. However, giving maximum shelter from the wind to these riders so they can keep going does benefit the group, allowing us to keep riding with minimal stops. So there's no argument that you can still get a draft off of someone in the drops but there's also no argument that you get a better draft off of someone who is on their tops or on the hoods. It should be noted that paceline rules are not universal and maybe shouldn't have been proposed as such but as I tried to clarify in my earlier post this is how our group does business. The guy on the front eats the wind, that's what we do, When the time comes that we have a core group of riders that can do metrics and full centuries without assistance we can shift our focus to going faster and working on aerodynamics and double pacelines.

Paisan, I'm not missing the point, really. You said earlier that the idea was to get people riding further than they had before, and mentioned approvingly that speed PRs had been achieved.

Speed and distance are pretty inextricably interrelated unless one has unlimited time, and improved aerodynamics can make it either faster or easier, depending on preference. If everyone spends more time in the drops, everyone will either go faster or be able to go on longer, once they have accustomed themselves to the position.

However, it's your ride, you ride as you prefer. I guess some of us are just reacting to the "don't ride in the drops at the front" being presented as if it's an instruction, and the "right" way to do things.

Chasm,
I am by no means advocating this as the best way, or the only right way. Trust me I've been in groups(10 yrs and 40lbs ago) that would routinely do 4.5 hour centuries. I'm just saying for the group we have and the experience level we have, this happens to be the right way for right now. As things progress I'm sure we'll modify and fall more in line with what some of the other groups do.

Paisan, I'm not missing the point, really. You said earlier that the idea was to get people riding further than they had before, and mentioned approvingly that speed PRs had been achieved.

Speed and distance are pretty inextricably interrelated unless one has unlimited time, and improved aerodynamics can make it either faster or easier, depending on preference. If everyone spends more time in the drops, everyone will either go faster or be able to go on longer, once they have accustomed themselves to the position.

However, it's your ride, you ride as you prefer. I guess some of us are just reacting to the "don't ride in the drops at the front" being presented as if it's an instruction, and the "right" way to do things.

In the OP, I mentioned that "Some tips I have learned:"

This is only what I have learned. No hard or fast rule. Just what works for me presently.

I think what this thread shows is that there are a number of different ways to skin a cat. The riding in or not riding in the drops rule isn't really a rule. It's a suggestion and what their particular paceline is doing. What one should do (if possible) is find out the rules for the group you are riding with before you head out. The clubs that I've ridden with all start rides with a ride leader reviewing the paceline rules.

Where we run into difficulties is when we form into an impromptu paceline on a ride or race. I've had lots of "fun" experiences in those situations. I've had people in front take off, slow down, yoyo, not call out hazards etc., it's just one of the risks you take riding with people you don't know.

I had one of my first experiences in a paceline this weekend and we had one leader who was faster than everyone else. The leader didn't stay with the group thus causing quite a bit of yo yoing. Wasn't fun being behind that person.

Speaking of etiquette - When you go on a group ride make sure all the folks know what "16 mph" is.
I went on one ride where I had 3 guys with GPS units that were all(!) 2 mph slow ... right Chef? :)

Sorry - tried to inject a little humour

Speaking of etiquette - When you go on a group ride make sure all the folks know what "16 mph" is.
I went on one ride where I had 3 guys with GPS units that were all(!) 2 mph slow ... right Chef? :)

Sorry - tried to inject a little humour

Unless they give me a target range, I never rely on what others verbally tell me the speed is supposed to be. Who knows how well their computers are calibrated, or, if they use GPS units, the speed display can be off considerably from one moment to the next due to environmental conditions. Instead I glance occasionally at my own unit's speed readout when I'm back in the line (carefully) and then work to maintain that speed when my turn at the front rolls around.

Unless they give me a target range, I never rely on what others verbally tell me the speed is supposed to be. Who knows how well their computers are calibrated, or, if they use GPS units, the speed display can be off considerably from one moment to the next due to environmental conditions. Instead I glance occasionally at my own unit's speed readout when I'm back in the line (carefully) and then work to maintain that speed when my turn at the front rolls around.

Craig: This is an inside joke.

Some should make sure their computers are calabrated.... IBO! :)

Craig: This is an inside joke.

Some should make sure their computers are calabrated.... IBO! :)

Mine WAS.
All Ya'll three of you had bad GPS readings. I can't help it if my 16 mph was your 18 mph :thumb:

Craig: This is an inside joke.

I figured it was. But it's still a situation that happens and people need to be able to work around it. I was suprised the first time I noticed my expensive-to-me (and therefore presumably accurate) Garmin's speed reading was thrown off while riding on a moderately-wooded MUP. I know I was going at least 16 and it showed readings from 11 to 14 until I'd get into little clearings. Fortunately, very little of my paceline riding is done on MUPs. ;)

- Dont overlap tires

There was a thread a long time ago in the road forum about this. Some people go out on a grass field at 5 mph and practice overlapping tires, taking turns in front and back. The idea is to get used to it, in a safe environment, so that if it ever happens at speed, you'll have a good chance of keeping the bike upright (and not taking the people behind you down, too). I don't know that I'd recommend it ... but food for thought.

The number one rule in a pace line is to learn when to use your brakes (most of the time you don't). That alone will save you from crashing yourself, the person in front of or behind you. Newbies should not pull and should rotate through the front for their first pace line ride. For new people, getting the feel of the pace line and learning what a safe distance between themselves and the rider ahead of them is the thing to learn first. I've ridden in pace lines going 15 mph and I've ridden in pace lines going 27 mph the skills are the same. Experienced riders should always make sure to take care of new riders and coach them. If newbies don't want help learning and or won't listen I've learned to either drop them or not ride with them. Those are my two cents.

Garmin's speed reading was thrown off while riding on a moderately-wooded MUP. I know I was going at least 16 and it showed readings from 11 to 14 until I'd get into little clearings.

I have the wheel sensor (GSC10) that is supposed to kick in when the GPS is not working right. Like your exact situation. in theory

in practice, i get the same exact thing if its heavily wooded. i will be crusing at 16mph in the clear. but at the same cadence and same gear in the wooded i will get the 11mph-13mph reading. Took about two months of hammering thought that section to figure out that it was the trees not my effort.

The number one rule in a pace line is to learn when to use your brakes (most of the time you don't). That alone will save you from crashing yourself, the person in front of or behind you. Newbies should not pull and should rotate through the front for their first pace line ride. For new people, getting the feel of the pace line and learning what a safe distance between themselves and the rider ahead of them is the thing to learn first. I've ridden in pace lines going 15 mph and I've ridden in pace lines going 27 mph the skills are the same. Experienced riders should always make sure to take care of new riders and coach them. If newbies don't want help learning and or won't listen I've learned to either drop them or not ride with them. Those are my two cents.

+1

There was a thread a long time ago in the road forum about this. Some people go out on a grass field at 5 mph and practice overlapping tires, taking turns in front and back. The idea is to get used to it, in a safe environment, so that if it ever happens at speed, you'll have a good chance of keeping the bike upright (and not taking the people behind you down, too). I don't know that I'd recommend it ... but food for thought.

People learning how to race do this all the time. They also deliberately make contact with one another, lean on one another and so on so they become accustomed to staying upright in contact situations. I believe some trackies will go further and deliberately overlap their front wheel with the rear wheel ahead of them, then make contact and hold it together by steering into the rear wheel. I wouldn't be suggesting these drills for beginners, though, not least because as far as the last one is concerned, I dont know how to do it myself...

People learning how to race do this all the time. They also deliberately make contact with one another, lean on one another and so on so they become accustomed to staying upright in contact situations. I believe some trackies will go further and deliberately overlap their front wheel with the rear wheel ahead of them, then make contact and hold it together by steering into the rear wheel. I wouldn't be suggesting these drills for beginners, though, not least because as far as the last one is concerned, I dont know how to do it myself...

+1

Although, I would recommend some "contact" or "bump" drills for pseudo-beginners (those who at least know how to ride), especially if they can be done in a safe manor. These are incredible at building self-confidence and agility & balance. Wonderful things to have for beginners.

I have the wheel sensor (GSC10) that is supposed to kick in when the GPS is not working right. Like your exact situation. in theory

in practice, i get the same exact thing if its heavily wooded. i will be crusing at 16mph in the clear. but at the same cadence and same gear in the wooded i will get the 11mph-13mph reading. Took about two months of hammering thought that section to figure out that it was the trees not my effort.

I don't think that's the way the GSC-10 works - you're either using the wheel sensor or you're not. I say this from the perspective of some body who fiddled with his GSC-10 for 2 months, getting erratic results until I finally replaced it.

If your wheel speed sensor isn't reading EVERY revolution of the wheel, your speeds will "flutter" and your ridden distance will be shorter than it should be.
if you tell the garmin to ignore the wheel speed and use GPS, you'll get overall good results but again, the speed will tend to fluctuate around your actual speed depending on GPS signal error.

Tragically, there is apparently no logic built into the garmin to compare the two sources to validate that the wheel speed and distance sensor is working properly. I lost 3 miles on a 30 mile ride one time as a result of that, even though the damn GPS obviously knew I was moving.

Like I said, one of my GSC-10 sensors could NOT be made to work properly so I ordered a new one. I still needed to add some of these puppies to the magnets (both cadence and wheel) to help with my chainstay curve - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YF92PA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00 and now everything is peachy.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NlGI4DL6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Speaking of etiquette - When you go on a group ride make sure all the folks know what "16 mph" is.

While in Destin, FL 2 weeks ago I went out with a paceline ride from Robin's cycling. I was told it was an 18mph ride, which is pretty easy in a paceline. We started off with a 24mph+ sprint down scenic 98. I was doing 24mph pedaling my butt off and couldn't keep up. We stopped at a stop sign and the group got back together and then it was a another dead sprint and I couldn't maintain pace at 22mph. At this point about 1 mile in to the "group ride" I dropped myself and rode at a comfy 17mph.

While in Destin, FL 2 weeks ago I went out with a paceline ride from Robin's cycling. I was told it was an 18mph ride, which is pretty easy in a paceline. We started off with a 24mph+ sprint down scenic 98. I was doing 24mph pedaling my butt off and couldn't keep up. We stopped at a stop sign and the group got back together and then it was a another dead sprint and I couldn't maintain pace at 22mph. At this point about 1 mile in to the "group ride" I dropped myself and rode at a comfy 17mph.

The group I ride with on Thursday nights is advertised (on the shop website) as averaging 16-17 mph. Nearly all of our rides this season have actually averaged in the neighborhood of 18.5. Not the discrepancy you noted on your ride, but enough that it could discourage some.

I usually ride on a Tuesday and Wednesday group ride. Tuesday speed is up to the leader, but no more than 20mph, usually in the 17-18mph range on the flats. Wed has 2 seperate rides, one is an average 14mph pace for 18 miles and the other is a 16-18mph pace over 25 miles. There are hills in both of these rides but that is what is expected on the flats.

I have the wheel sensor (GSC10) that is supposed to kick in when the GPS is not working right. Like your exact situation. in theory

in practice, i get the same exact thing if its heavily wooded. i will be crusing at 16mph in the clear. but at the same cadence and same gear in the wooded i will get the 11mph-13mph reading. Took about two months of hammering thought that section to figure out that it was the trees not my effort.

that is not how it works. If the magnet in the wheel is present, gps is no longer used for speed calculations.

+1

Although, I would recommend some "contact" or "bump" drills for pseudo-beginners (those who at least know how to ride), especially if they can be done in a safe manor. These are incredible at building self-confidence and agility & balance. Wonderful things to have for beginners.


Here is an easy and safe way to drill. Ride side by side with your buddy and learn to learn into another and bounce off when you get close. That way one day when you are not paying attention and get to close, its not a bid deal. One buddy I ride with and I are so used to each other that its no bid deal if I reach over and push off him once and a while. That way when you look up and your about to bump into somebody, you don't over correct and crash everyone.

that is not how it works. If the magnet in the wheel is present, gps is no longer used for speed calculations.

I have the wheel sensor present, and i have tested time and again on one section on a heavily wooded MUP, i will be in a clearing at 95rpms going 16mph then once in the heavy wooded area in the same gear and the same rpms my speed will drop to 11mph-13mph. The most logical explanation is the gps signal is lost or weak, and either deffered to the wheel magnet or sticks with a crappy GPS signal and never uses the wheel.

i dont think my wheel expands in this section, i have not ruled out some crazy magnetical field here either, so i cant say for sure what is going on.


If your wheel speed sensor isn't reading EVERY revolution of the wheel, your speeds will "flutter" and your ridden distance will be shorter than it should be.
if you tell the garmin to ignore the wheel speed and use GPS, you'll get overall good results but again, the speed will tend to fluctuate around your actual speed depending on GPS signal error.

Tragically, there is apparently no logic built into the garmin to compare the two sources to validate that the wheel speed and distance sensor is working properly. I lost 3 miles on a 30 mile ride one time as a result of that, even though the damn GPS obviously knew I was moving

You would think some kind of logic would be written on such an amazing little computer. I will need to check my settings about the ignore wheel speed. i always assumed that the unit would automatically use the best one.

I have those rare earth magnets, put it on the crank arm for a test, i couldnt get the dang thing off, powerful little buggers!

I'm pretty certain that for the wheel sensor to be used exclusively you need to have the "wheel size" on the bike profile page set to "custom". If you leave it on Auto it will use the GPS signal to determine speed.

I'm pretty certain that for the wheel sensor to be used exclusively you need to have the "wheel size" on the bike profile page set to "custom". If you leave it on Auto it will use the GPS signal to determine speed.

I guess its best to set it on the 500
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?t=27927