Slaughter on the Roads

[77Univega]

-- Bike Forum Friends,
According to the Center for Disease Control, (http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe),
44,065 people died in traffic accidents in 2002. It recently occurred to me while discussing this with friends what a HUGE number of deaths that is. That is about the same number of US soldiers who died in the last TEN years of combat in Vietnam. But these people were not in a WAR, they weren't mountain climbing, or engaged in extreme sports... they were people just traveling on the road to get someplace.

Ever since I was a kid, I have become inured at the number of people who die in traffic accidents and only recently has the ABSURD ENORMITY of it hit me.

As much as I like to drive ( I really like it), maybe we humans just were not meant to move 60 miles an hour in a private vehicle. Maybe not even 30mph.
I envision that in the future, enlighted transportation options will consist of a combination of these three:
1. Mass transit
2. Bicycles
3. Private motor vehicles limited to 20 mph.

What do you think?

[GeezerGeek]

-- That is about the same number of US soldiers who died in the last TEN years of combat in Vietnam.
During the Viet Nam war, it was suggested that we could save money and kill more enemies by building freeways, giving every one of them a fast car, and then letting them kill themselves in car accidents.

[columbus_slx]

Agree 100%. I feel large populated urban areas really need this. (resident of los angeles)

[columbus_slx]

we need more involvement with bicycle advocacy, public transportation lobbying, etc. Personal car (and truck) companies must be happy with our traffic/accident prone urban areas, with potholes and other costs to cities and taxpayers.

[Dahon.Steve]

The last time I rented a car, it amazed me at how dangerous our highways really are. Cars were doing about 70mph on average and going slower than that put you in a dangerous situation as vehicles would cut you off! Furthermore, my rented car could NOT hold a straight line at that speed and I suspect many American cars wouldn't fare much better. One slip of the stearing wheel and I would have been flipping down the freeway to my death.

When you combine high speed with unstable cars, drunk drivers, teenagers, old drivers, tired drivers and cell phone drivers, it's no wonder we don't have more accidents! From what I understand, the number of current deaths would have been much higher today if it were not for mandatory seat belts and air bags.

[smurfy]

Ditto! I drove with my family to Maine on vacation last summer (haven't been on the highway for any long distance in about ten years) and I was shocked by how fast motorists drive these days. I would go 65mph or so and they would pass me like I was standing still! Motorcycles, too. Many of them were without helmets! I think I hit 75mph tops going downhill but I wouldn't be comfortable driving my little car faster than that.

Scary stuff! My next vacation (hopefully) is going to be the Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure this summer where we won't need a car.

[Bop Bop]

I lived in NYC for over 50 years and drove the roads there for more than 30 years. They are tight, cramped, very crowded, poorly planned and even more poorly maintained.

Four years ago I moved to Scottsdale, great roads, well maintained, etc. Thought I had reached the "mother land". Then I started to drive them! People out here have no sense of what they are doing, go as fast as they please. Speeds in excess of 100 are common. They live for speed, even on city streets, where many have 45 MPH speed limits but are driven at 60 or more. Motorcyclists are not required to wear helmets, I refer to them as "crash test dummies".

AZ is the only place I've ever heard of that did a study on some it's roads and discovered so many drivers where driving over the then posted speed limit, that they raised the posted speed limits by 10 MPH from 55 to 65 and in some spots from 65 to 75 MPH.

Currently local law enforcement is doing a crackdown on one of the worse pieces of road in the valley the 101. So far the top speeder taken off was doing 128 MPH in a car and 108 on a motorcycle.

Riding a bike for me is relief to the madness of speed, as I ride mostly in the 12 to 15 MPH range, it's great.

[nick burns]

The last time I rented a car, it amazed me at how dangerous our highways really are. Cars were doing about 70mph on average and going slower than that put you in a dangerous situation as vehicles would cut you off!


You said it! My gf's mother lives in N. Jersey, so we take the parkway to get there. Flow of traffic is typically 70+mph with a lot of people going waaay faster than that. Very scary, especially since being a bike commuter that's about the only driving I do anymore. I see cops on the side of the road, but they don't pull you over even if you're 15-20 mph over the limit. It's crazy. Plus people don't come close to following the rule of thumb about a car length per 10mph between you and the car you're following. They follow right on your bumper. I'm just glad I don't have to do it everyday.

[Feldman]

Hey, it's good for the Gross National Product.

[alanbikehouston]

My neighborhood is full of four lane roads with a posted limit of 30 mph or 35 mph. Armies of Suburbans and Expeditions speed down those roads, racing from their homes outside the city, to their jobs downtown, bumper to bumper at 45 mph or 55 mph. When they see a red light, they hit the gas, not the brakes.

Houston proposed putting cameras at intersections to "catch" these pyschos. The Texas legislature is proposing to "outlaw" the cameras as a violation of the drivers' "rights".

Where in the constitution is there a "right" for morons driving two ton vehicles to terrorize the residents of a neighborhood?

[AndrewP]

As one of the leading causes of death for people between ages 15 and 35, motor vehicle accidents should be addressed as a public health issue, rather than a transportation issue.

[Hal Hardy]

maybe we humans just were not meant to move 60 miles an hour in a private vehicle.



Back in the horse & buggy days when cars were just getting popular, it was said that man wasn't capable of driving 60mph because our reflexes aren't quick enough to handle the speed. Considering the cars and roads of the day, they were probably right. Now we have cars and roads that you can fall asleep at the wheel at twice that speed. According to Einstein, the faster we travel, the slower we age. Maybe that's the real reason Americans have longer lifespans? Personally, I like tooling along at 10-15mph on my bike and relying on genetics to get me to 90 years old.

[pablo27]

i've had that thought

seems stupid to get killed just trying to get somewhere, but then again there's that old saying...

the stupid shall be punished

[AndrewP]

Its better to be 30 secs late in this world, than 30 yrs early in the next.

[Merriwether]

Hey, it's good for the Gross National Product.

I take it you're speaking tongue in cheek, but that's the Keynesians for you. War: good for the economy! Tsunami: good for the economy! And auto accidents by the millions: think of all the stimulus provided by purchases of repair services and replacement vehicles!

If these examples aren't enough to reveal the fallacy involved, well, I don't know have the time to explain any further now.

[barenakedbiker]

If 44,065 people didn't die on our roadways in 2002, Social Security would go broke sooner. Because humans do not have natural preys, we need ways to keep the population from exploding. The fate of the human race actually needs traffic crashes, drug overdoses, tsunamis, wars, sucides, genocides, murders, and other methods of thinning the herd.

[LittleBigMan]

-- Bike Forum Friends,
According to the Center for Disease Control, (http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe),
44,065 people died in traffic accidents in 2002.
The Center for Disease Control in Atlanta seems to think there is an epidemic. All indicators seem to point that way. But that's not the most absurd thing about this, that car crashes are likened to a disease, since the CDC is concerned about it.

The most absurd thing is that this "epidemic" has gone on for over 50 years. Anything else that horrific would have been addressed by people who were apalled at the horror of it.

10 children dying while choking on a toy provokes a response Joan of Arc would be proud of. But millions of traffic deaths don't seem to matter enough.

[Dchiefransom]

My neighborhood is full of four lane roads with a posted limit of 30 mph or 35 mph. Armies of Suburbans and Expeditions speed down those roads, racing from their homes outside the city, to their jobs downtown, bumper to bumper at 45 mph or 55 mph. When they see a red light, they hit the gas, not the brakes.

Houston proposed putting cameras at intersections to "catch" these pyschos. The Texas legislature is proposing to "outlaw" the cameras as a violation of the drivers' "rights".

Where in the constitution is there a "right" for morons driving two ton vehicles to terrorize the residents of a neighborhood?

The problem I have with the cameras at intersections is that they're run by private companies, and those companies get the majority of the fine imposed. Personally, I don't believe in this at all. If the cameras are installed and repaired by a contractor, but regulated by the police, and the fines go to whatever government agency would normally get them, I would have no problem with that.

[scrantr]

...I was shocked by how fast motorists drive these days. I would go 65mph or so and they would pass me like I was standing still! Motorcycles, too. Many of them were without helmets! I think I hit 75mph tops going downhill but I wouldn't be comfortable driving my little car faster than that.


Just to play the other side's advocate: I think this same statement can be (and often has been) made by inexperienced cyclists attempting to negotiate fast and/or heavy traffic with little prior experience. If you haven't driven on the freeways much for a long time, you are perhaps not qualified to be on them until you are reacclimated to the envirnoment. I hear much the same sentiment from folks who are appalled at the places and times I ride when commuting or running errands. I'm comfortable; they are very intimidated.

[nick burns]

Just to play the other side's advocate: I think this same statement can be (and often has been) made by inexperienced cyclists attempting to negotiate fast and/or heavy traffic with little prior experience. If you haven't driven on the freeways much for a long time, you are perhaps not qualified to be on them until you are reacclimated to the envirnoment. I hear much the same sentiment from folks who are appalled at the places and times I ride when commuting or running errands. I'm comfortable; they are very intimidated.

I don't believe it's simply a matter of being acclimated, it's more of a realization that if something happened suddenly at 70+ mph, a person would have a extremely difficult time reacting quickly enough to negotiate the situation safely. Especially with numerous other cars surrounding them. Most people have not experienced a high speed accident and have no idea how quickly they can occur. The people that do understand that are the ones who are uneasy driving under very fast & close conditions. At least that's the case for me.

[TrevorInSoCal]

The problem I have with the cameras at intersections is that they're run by private companies, and those companies get the majority of the fine imposed.

There was a lawsuit recently in San Diego that turned over a bunch of red light tickets because of this. I'm not sure if it was proven, but there were also allegations that the yellow-light duration was *shortened* in intersections with red-light cameras. That may increase revenue, but it's certainly not going to increase safety.


Apparently it was proven:http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/1275211/detail.html

-Trevor

[Dchiefransom]

There was a lawsuit recently in San Diego that turned over a bunch of red light tickets because of this. I'm not sure if it was proven, but there were also allegations that the yellow-light duration was *shortened* in intersections with red-light cameras. That may increase revenue, but it's certainly not going to increase safety.


Apparently it was proven:http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/1275211/detail.html

-Trevor

They have some cameras like that in Fremont, and after your story in San diego broke, the local paper went out and timed the yellow lights at those intersections with a stop watch. If I remember correctly, the yellow light was 1.5 seconds shorter. Fremont had the contractor set them back.

[Helmet-Head]

44,000 deaths per year due to car collisions is large, but numbers can be deceiving.

First of all, out of a population of 270 million that number accounts for .016% of the population, or 1 out of 6,136 people.

The true odds of you or me being one of those 44,000 is much more complicated than this simple math might indicate. For example, that number includes drunk drivers killed, and people in cars with drunk drivers. If you're not a drunk driver, and don't ride in cars driven by drunk drivers, then your odds are already much better than 1 out of 6,000. Conversely, if you are a drunk driver, or routinely get rides from drunk drivers, than your odds are much worse.

Studies show that in most collisions (well more than half), multiple drivers were at fault. Defensive Driving courses also teach that even when a driver is not technically at fault in a collision in which he was involved, in virtually all cases if he had been driving defensively (not following too closely, checking that it's safe when entering an intersection even on a green light, etc., etc.) the collision could have been avoided. Thus, the 44,000 number is almost entirely comprised of people killed in collisions where none of the drivers involved were driving defensively. Therefore, if you drive defensively and only ride in cars with drivers who drive defensively your odds are much, much better than 1 in 6,000.

Remember, defensive driving instructors teach that defensive drivers can always avoid collisions. Even if that's a slight exaggeration (what can a defensive driver do when a drunk driver drives off an overhead bridge into the roadway right on top of the defensive driver's car?), it's a sobering realization. What percentage of collisions could not have been avoided even if one of the involved drivers was driving defensively? 1%? Defensive Driving instructors would probably squalk that even 1% is too high, but let's go with it.

Each person's odds of getting killed in a car collision are determined by many factors, including their own driving skills (and the skills of the drivers with which they ride), how often they're on the road, whether they ever drive drunk, etc. etc. These odds are 1 in 6,000 only if you happen to have the same odds of dying in such a collision equal to the average of the odds of those who are actually killed in car collisions. But the average of the odds of those who are actually killed in car collisions are radically skewed upward by the number of drunk and non-defensive drivers in that group.

If you don't drive drunk and do drive defensively, you will be able to avoid all car collisions except that very small percentage (say 1%) that simply cannot be avoided (e.g., drunk driver suddenly veers into your lane from the opposite side). In other words, your odds of dying in a car collision will shrink from the generic average of 1 in 6,000 to something closer to 1 in 600,000, or probably even less.

Another way to look at this is if everyone drove sober and defensively the total number would drop from around 44,000 to at most 440 (theoretically, it should drop to zero). This is based on the assumption that in every collisions at least one driver did something stupid, wrong or non-defensive, and in the vast majority of collisions ALL drivers involved did something stupid, wrong or non-defensive.

Serge

[Helmet-Head]

Does anyone know how the 44,000 deaths are distributed in terms of occuring on different types of roads categorized by speed limit?

For example, what percentage of those deaths occurred on 65/70 mph freeways?
55mph rural highways?
35-45 mph arterials?
25-30mph residentials?

In other words, if we dropped the speed limit to 30mph on all roads, for example, what would happen to that 44,000? Would it even be cut in half? I doubt it.

Serge

[DieselDan]

I took a driving course at Buck Baker's Racing School in Rockingham, NC back in 1991. You are taught how to drive a car at high speeds. The biggest thing is to be alert and pay attention! You'd be surprised at the number of liscensed drivers that are scared of driving and get tunnel vision.

[genec]

Hey Serge... "no idiots out there... " Riiiiiiight....

"Driver Killed After Slamming Into Tree In Scripps Ranch

A motorist was killed in a fiery car crash in Scripps Ranch, San Diego police said.
The victim was speeding while headed east when the vehicle jumped a curb in the 10800 block of Pomerado Road and slammed against a tree around 11:50 p.m. Tuesday, Sgt. Bob Dare said.

The vehicle caught fire, with the driver trapped inside, Dare said.

No details about the motorists were immediately released. The police department's traffic division was investigating the crash."


And in an unrelated incident earlier in the week...


"Children Witness Deadly Road Rage Incident

Police are looking for a suspect in a road-rage-related shooting in Chula Vista, which left two men dead and two children shaken but unhurt.

Gerardo Cruz, 43, died at the scene of the attack, which happened about 8:30 p.m. Saturday on Fourth Avenue after the drivers of two vehicles pulled over and the occupants exchanged words, Chula Vista police said.

Benjamin Curiel Jr., 20, died while in surgery at UCSD Medical Center, CVPD Sgt. John McAvenia said.

After the men had words, the victims went to their truck with the apparent intention of leaving the scene, police said. The suspect went to his car and got a handgun, McAvenia said.

The children were inside the victims' truck when the shootings occurred but were not injured.

They were taken to the police station, where they were helped by police and counselors until their families arrived, 10News reported.

The relationship between the children and the victims, if any, is unclear.

Investigators say they are looking for a dark or black Honda with tinted windows, chrome rims and a sticker with white initials in the back window.


Like I said before... find a high vantage point and watch... they ARE out there.

On the plus side, they seem to be killing themselves this week.

[royalflash]

I took a driving course at Buck Baker's Racing School in Rockingham, NC back in 1991. You are taught how to drive a car at high speeds. The biggest thing is to be alert and pay attention! You'd be surprised at the number of liscensed drivers that are scared of driving and get tunnel vision.

I very much doubt that these type of courses have much effect on safety- they just make you feel more capable and confident- as far as I remember studies on high speed driving courses for UK police officers show that they dont have any significant effect on accident rates. Being scared keeps you alive.