Working for the Auto Industry

[smurfy]

Hi, all!

From what I've heard the auto industry and related auto-based businesses and services are one-sixth of our nation's economy. There have been alot of comments here in this forum about our American car-crazy culture and our dependence on the private automobile.

I guess what I'm curious about is who here on Bike Forums works for the auto industry, either directly or indirectly. Working in the "belly of the beast" I might add!

I'll start. I work for a company that custom designs and builds fluid-fill equipment (among other things) for assembly lines. The auto industry accounts for, on average, 58% of our business, although the past few years or so it's been seemed to be about 90% because that's all the business we could get due to the recession and such. Our company's goal is to get the transportation sector down to about 46% of sales because profit margins with the auto industry are low. The appliance industry and commercial sectors generate more profit.

Anyway, not to bore you with all that, but I guess I work indirectly for the auto industry. During the initial SUV craze in the mid to late ninties we were working overtime like crazy to build new equipment for these gas-guzzlers. Can't bite the hand that feeds me, ya know!

Anybody else?

[nycm'er]

I understand your position on the matter of slamming the car culture that is current day America. Could the hand that feeds you be refitted to manufacture other goods? Respectfully, should we continue a practice that is as harmful as the car culture because we will loose jobs? I hear that argument quite often and wonder at what point is temporary job loss better than feeding an insatiable cancer?

[norton]

From 1970 until I retired in December last year, I worked as a transit & school bus driver. Not the private auto I know, but certainly the transportation industry. I loved my job! I adore my Mini Cooper! I love the siren call of the Open Road!....the fresh breeze in my face!....the lure of the mystery just over the next hill! Sad that these joys are ceasing to exist.....the Clogged Road......the pollution in my lungs.....the same thing on the other side of the hill as on this side


It is a tragi-comedy :cry:

[Reptar]

Yes, I work "directly" in the auto industry, in a suburb of Detroit. 100% of my company’s business is in the automotive or heavy truck sector. I enjoy driving cars and in particular racing them. I’m actually in the process of designing and building a sports car from scratch. All that being said, I also believe that cars are generally not the best solution to get from point A to point B for most trips. Aside from the environmental aspect, I don’t particularly enjoy utilitarian driving, I’d much rather take my bike for shorter routine trips. Even out in the suburbs, I commute to work on my bike (I’m the only one in my office of ~450 people) in the non-snowy months, usually late March through late November. I also try to take my bike for whatever errands I need to run.

The other point I’d like to add is that while there is a tendency to “blame Detroit” for the car problem in the US, people need to keep in mind that the companies in the auto industry are just regular businesses. Ultimately, to be successful, businesses will produce what the consumer demands. I think if there were really a strong demand for more fuel efficient, smaller, etc vehicles, the industry would be forced to respond. Maybe not immediately (since smaller cars are generally less profitable), but eventually it would happen.

- Keith

[sggoodri]

If people want the auto industry to become a smaller portion of the economy, then they can always spend less of their income on things automobile related.

I happen to love my Honda Element, almost as much as I love my bikes. I'm just sad that American manufacturers haven't figured out how to build smaller, more efficient SUVs at such a high level of design quality and manufacturing quality as the Japanese do now.

Some Americans prefer much bigger vehicles than mine, and I support their right to buy them. I only want them to drive them a little more carefully, and keep their noxious emissions to a minimum. Those are the things that affect me most directly.

[FXjohn]

I work in the Automotive industry.
The company designs noise, vibration and handling components.
I'm a CAD designer. Mostly we supply to the big 3, but are making inroads into Japanese companies. People in the country are going to need cars, regardless of some of the comments posted here.

[Ebbtide]

I'm just sad that American manufacturers haven't figured out how to build smaller, more efficient SUVs at such a high level of design quality and manufacturing quality as the Japanese do now.

In all fairness to the US auto maker, they have figured it out. There is not enough money to be made as only a few Americans care about efficiency. It is easy to blame the car maker, but its our neighbors that need to "figure it out".

I am "required" to have a car for my job. I drive about 300 miles a month but I'm not in the auto industry, just an auto town. Which makes me in fact, dependent on the auto.

[FXjohn]

In all fairness to the US auto maker, they have figured it out. There is not enough money to be made as only a few Americans care about efficiency. It is easy to blame the car maker, but its our neighbors that need to "figure it out".

I am "required" to have a car for my job. I drive about 300 miles a month but I'm not in the auto industry, just an auto town. Which makes me in fact, dependent on the auto.

US companies make most of their money off from SUV's, Trucks and bigger cars, not small cars.
If Americans cared about efficiency we would not be driving such high HP cars, even the 4-cylinders.
Matter of fact the Prius has 105HP, whereas years ago the Dodge Omni which got 45mpg only had about 70hp.

[tulip]

My job is directly related to revitalizing cities, improving public transit, developing greenways and bikeways. I choose to live in a place where I do not have to depend on my car on a daily basis. I refuse to live in the 'burbs. I have a car, and I use it sometimes, but not often. It's a 1992 Honda Accord with 157,000 miles on it and I will not replace it until I have to. When that time comes, I will get a Prius or similar vehicle. Being a Honda person, I'm interested in the new Accord Hybrid.

I'm not some hippy-dippy idealist. I dress smart; I wear make-up. My company is a for-profit firm, one of the most respected in its field, that employs several thousand people. I have to turn a profit for them on my projects. I do not have a problem with this. I WOULD have a problem if I were designing parking lots for Wal-Mart. I would find another job in that case.

Providing alternate means of transportation will not hurt the economy and drive people from jobs. I'm no economist, but I'm just talking about PROVIDING A CHOICE and making it POSSIBLE for people to be less dependent on cars.

People are needed to build trains just as they are to build cars. I noticed that the old Metro trains in Washington were built in Spain and Italy, while the new ones are being built in New York State. There are opportunities for cross-pollination of auto- and transit industries.

[gqsmoothie]

I do traffic counts at intersections throughout NC for the DOT. In a way I feel that this is good because lots of times the data I give them helps them change traffic signal timing and the way intersections are arranged thus allowing traffic to flow more smoothly and safely.
Sometimes the traffic counts lead to suburban sprawl though, which really sucks. I feel guilty when I am doing a traffic count right next to a farmhouse from the early 1900s where they are building a new mall 1/2 mile away.

[Laika]

Volvo is an infrequent client of mine. I try to avoid their assignments if I can afford to do so. I feel much worse about the work I did for MCI/Worldcom at the height of their deception than what I've done for Volvo, for what that's worth.

[Roody]

I live in a city that manufactures more cars than any other city in North America (locals claim). Yet our local economy is decreasingly dependent on autos for jobs. The reason is that manufacturers are automating production more and more. They will continue to cut employment at every opportunity, with absolutely no regard for workers or their communities. Of course, our Republikan government will have even less regard for displaced workers. IF effective safety nets for workers were in place, I would love to see the auto industry diminish. Auto manufacturing has certainly been a mixed blessing for Michigan and the world in the last 100 years. But if you work for an auto company and you believe your employer cares about what happens to your job, you are living in a fool's paradise.

[Ebbtide]

But if you work for an auto company and you believe your employer cares about what happens to your job, you are living in a fool's paradise.

I have not heard that kind of talk since 1977 ;)

[FXjohn]

I live in a city that manufactures more cars than any other city in North America (locals claim). Yet our local economy is decreasingly dependent on autos for jobs. The reason is that manufacturers are automating production more and more. They will continue to cut employment at every opportunity, with absolutely no regard for workers or their communities. .

Would you want to do a job that a robot could do? Come one now, the company doesn't owe you cradle to grave bennies, grow up.

[randya]

New two-tier pay structure will cut auto worker's pay by ~ 2/3. United Auto Workers to go from $65 an hour for current employees to $23 an hour for new hires.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/business/yourmoney/16advi.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1106081894-iY1pNUJ/vadl6crTq86A8A

[FXjohn]

New two-tier pay structure will cut auto worker's pay by ~ 2/3. United Auto Workers to go from $65 an hour for current employees to $23 an hour for new hires.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/business/yourmoney/16advi.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1106081894-iY1pNUJ/vadl6crTq86A8A

Sounds like a fair deal to me.

[randya]

US companies make most of their money off from SUV's, Trucks and bigger cars, not small cars.
If Americans cared about efficiency we would not be driving such high HP cars, even the 4-cylinders.
This is all a matter of shrewd marketing and advertising, and has very little to do with what people 'want'. Most people are sheep and buy what they are led to desire through advertising. The sane people ignore the advertising, which is why there is still a small but strong market for smaller cars in the US. The 'big three' US auto manufacturers continue to lose market share to asian manufacturers in this market segment, while they blindly continue to build obsolete dinosaurs.

[Dahon.Steve]

One of my neighbors left her apartment suddenly without paying her last months rent. As you can imagine, her mail continues to arrive and it's being dumped in everyones box! Letters from collection agents and creditors are tossed on the floor. It's quite sad really.

There was an open letter on the floor from an auto creditor (HSBC) and it came to me at that very moment why she was broke. The poor girl was working for the auto finance company. She recently purchased a new car costing 17K and was stuck having to shell out $479.70 per month to the bank. This did NOT include her insurance payments which must have been full coverage considering the car was new. This high monthly payment did not include gas, maintenance, tolls, tickets and repairs.

Make no doubt about, she was employed full time for the auto industry and didn't even know it. I'm sure she worked hard but in the end, all of her discretionary income had to go to her even bigger employer - General Motors! There must be millions of people like her living pay check to pay check who can't even pay their bills (or rent!) because their transportation costs drains them of every cent they make.

I consider these folks, non-paid employees of the auto industry.

[smurfy]

I know what you mean, Dahon. Have you ever noticed all the Avalanches and Escalades and similar vehicles all over the roads these days? All these people can't possibly have that much money to afford one of these (some do, of course). Actually some of them are GM employees so they get a good discount.

When the oil runs out, don't come crying to me!

[FXjohn]

One of my neighbors left her apartment suddenly without paying her last months rent. As you can imagine, her mail continues to arrive and it's being dumped in everyones box! Letters from collection agents and creditors are tossed on the floor. It's quite sad really.

There was an open letter on the floor from an auto creditor (HSBC) and it came to me at that very moment why she was broke. The poor girl was working for the auto finance company. She recently purchased a new car costing 17K and was stuck having to shell out $479.70 per month to the bank. This did NOT include her insurance payments which must have been full coverage considering the car was new. This high monthly payment did not include gas, maintenance, tolls, tickets and repairs.

Make no doubt about, she was employed full time for the auto industry and didn't even know it. I'm sure she worked hard but in the end, all of her discretionary income had to go to her even bigger employer - General Motors! There must be millions of people like her living pay check to pay check who can't even pay their bills (or rent!) because their transportation costs drains them of every cent they make.

I consider these folks, non-paid employees of the auto industry.


17 grand isn't so much for a vehicle...

You make it sound like all her problems were because she had wheels...dah

she could have sold it and bought a used car outright and she would have been broke for other reasons.

[Dahon.Steve]

17 grand isn't so much for a vehicle...

You make it sound like all her problems were because she had wheels...dah

she could have sold it and bought a used car outright and she would have been broke for other reasons.

Your right in that 17K isn't a lot of money for a vehicle. But when you consider that insurance and gas and the rest will probably add an additional $250.00 dollars or maybe more. All this is aftertax money so she will have to gross about $800.00 to $1,000.00 dollars per month for the vehicle! Do you see the problem here?

[FXjohn]

Your right in that 17K isn't a lot of money for a vehicle. But when you consider that insurance and gas and the rest will probably add an additional $250.00 dollars or maybe more. All this is aftertax money so she will have to gross about $800.00 to $1,000.00 dollars per month for the vehicle! Do you see the problem here?

That's why I drive paid off vehicles with PLPD.
I don't mind paying a grand in maintenance about every 2 years, i still come out WAAAY ahead.

[nick burns]

Would you want to do a job that a robot could do? Come one now, the company doesn't owe you cradle to grave bennies, grow up.

Man, that is cold. There are many people who proudly performed the work that has since become automated. What do you expect the 295 million in the US to do for a living?

If greedy companies paid their employees enough to set aside money themselves for retirement, then cradle to grave benefits wouldn't be such an issue, would it? Without that, those retired people will become a burden on the rest of the country. I think I'd rather have that burden placed on the corporations they worked for.

[FXjohn]

Man, that is cold. There are many people who proudly performed the work that has since become automated. What do you expect the 295 million in the US to do for a living?

If greedy companies paid their employees enough to set aside money themselves for retirement, then cradle to grave benefits wouldn't be such an issue, would it? Without that, those retired people will become a burden on the rest of the country. I think I'd rather have that burden placed on the corporations they worked for.


I hope you're ot saying that 295 million people in the US are all inskilled laborers.
There have been cases of UAW janitors making 6 figures...LOL.
Honestly, in this day and age a company will go broke paying someone 70 grand plus top of the line benefits to run screws into a car all day long.
It's not cold, it's part of the self sufficient attitude of some Americans.
Sure retirement is owed to you if you have earned it. If someone does unskilled labor for 5 years, that a robot can do and gets displaced, the company is not obligated to pay them just for existing.
Unskilled labor, it's not where the govt or society should be encouraging people to languish.
It's just wasteful to all. We've known for years that we may have to change careers several times over our lifetime and adapt. Life is cold, man.

EDIT: I am all for spending money to retrain people, and get them skilled.

[Rescue35]

I work for an oil refinery (450+ million barrels a day) Most of our products are deep conversion either makeing heating oil (for you folks up north) or gas, desile, or jet fuel.

FYI most of the oil used by the US doesnt come from the middle east.

[FXjohn]

I work for an oil refinery (450+ million barrels a day) Most of our products are deep conversion either makeing heating oil (for you folks up north) or gas, desile, or jet fuel.

FYI most of the oil used by the US doesnt come from the middle east.

B-b-but...I've been told that the war in Iraq is all about oil and that we're going to just steal it all from the Iraqis.... :eek:

[nick burns]

EDIT: I am all for spending money to retrain people, and get them skilled.

Yeah, but to do what? There can only be so many "skilled" occupations.

I'm not saying 70 grand/year. Just a liveable wage & some hope to be able to survive during retirement is all. If person breaks their back their whole lifetime working for a company they shouldn't later be tossed aside like broken, obsolete equipment.

[FXjohn]

Yeah, but to do what? There can only be so many "skilled" occupations.

I'm not saying 70 grand/year. Just a liveable wage & some hope to be able to survive during retirement is all. If person breaks their back their whole lifetime working for a company they shouldn't later be tossed aside like broken, obsolete equipment.


If you work somewhere breaking your back your whole life you have a vesting (pension, usually starts accruing after 5 years) and you have a 401K. You have paid into social security this whole time also. What more did you want?

[nick burns]

If you work somewhere breaking your back your whole life you have a vesting (pension, usually starts accruing after 5 years) and you have a 401K. You have paid into social security this whole time also. What more did you want?

Yeah, that would be perfectly acceptable, providing your company offered a pension plan and/or you earned enough to be able to invest in a 401k.

Otherwise, I don't think I would look forward to relying on social security to survive during retirement.

[Ebbtide]

Yeah, but to do what? There can only be so many "skilled" occupations.

I'm not saying 70 grand/year. Just a liveable wage & some hope to be able to survive during retirement is all. If person breaks their back their whole lifetime working for a company they shouldn't later be tossed aside like broken, obsolete equipment.

What is a livable wage in you opinion? I know plenty of families that make less than 30k a year and manage fine with a couple of kids. I know others that make over 100k and complain just like you (no offense intended).

Oh, and one more thing to ad, people work 50 plus years, if they can't save enough to live off of during an average of 5 years of retirement they have done something very wrong.

[Ebbtide]

Yeah, that would be perfectly acceptable, providing your company offered a pension plan and/or you earned enough to be able to invest in a 401k.

Build your skill level and move to a job that offers a retirement package. It is still very competitive out there, no reason to settle.

[nick burns]

What is a livable wage in you opinion? I know plenty of families that make less than 30k a year and manage fine with a couple of kids. I know others that make over 100k and complain just like you (no offence intended).

That's a pretty good question. I don't know to be quite honest. It may be dependent to a certain extent on where you live. I do believe however, that the current minimum wage of $5.15 would not qualify.
Up until a few years ago I lived on less than 30k, but I don't have kids. I did not lead an extravagant lifestyle by any means, and it was a stuggle at times to pay the bills on time.

It is pretty apparent that many people in this country are not being paid a liveable salary. Wouldn't you agree?

[FXjohn]

That's a pretty good question. I don't know to be quite honest. It may be dependent to a certain extent on where you live. I do believe however, that the current minimum wage of $5.15 would not qualify.
Up until a few years ago I lived on less than 30k, but I don't have kids. I did not lead an extravagant lifestyle by any means, and it was a stuggle at times to pay the bills on time.

It is pretty apparent that many people in this country are not being paid a liveable salary. Wouldn't you agree?

Even "evil" Walmart pays 9 dollars something an hour, and you don't have to breathe factory fumes.
I would be for raising the min wage, but that would probably encurage employers to pay illegals under the table.

I say employers who hire illegals...lock em up!! It's their responsibilty to know who they're paying.

[nick burns]

I say employers who hire illegals...lock em up!! It's their responsibilty to know who they're paying.

You said it brother!

[Ebbtide]

That's a pretty good question. I don't know to be quite honest. It may be dependent to a certain extent on where you live. I do believe however, that the current minimum wage of $5.15 would not qualify.
Up until a few years ago I lived on less than 30k, but I don't have kids. I did not lead an extravagant lifestyle by any means, and it was a struggle at times to pay the bills on time.

It is pretty apparent that many people in this country are not being paid a liveable salary. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know. My 15 year old Son makes 5.15 an hour. Should he be making more? Are you willing to pay $9.00 for a #3 with a diet? Does he deserve to be making more, he does not know how to do anything and he has no skills?

Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. A 22 year old making 8.00 and hour renting videos and living in his parents basement is he making a living wage? Is the high school drop out living with his Baby's momma making $11.00 an hour making a living wage?

A living wage is purely subjective. I would love to make over 30K a year at my job. I do not, but I own a home, have an education, a comfortable net worth (imo) and love to ride bikes. Am I living, yes. Do I earn a wage, yes. Do I struggle to make ends meet, sure everyone does.

It comes down to priorities. I want to ride bikes so I do not have cable. I want to ride bikes so I drive a 10 year old car. I live pay check to pay check, pay my taxes, and put a little away for the rainy days.
IF I want to make more money I could, but money is not what makes ehenz go round.

[Karldar]

Even "evil" Walmart pays 9 dollars something an hour, and you don't have to breathe factory fumes.

I worked at WM (for 2 weeks-couldn't stand it any longer than that) and I only got $7.50/hr :(

I am now employed by an auto manufacturer(non-union) The reason is simple-money, which leads to peace of mind for my wife and I. I make more money now than I have ever made(approx. 50-60k/yr) and am well on my way to being debt-free. If I could work at a more environmentally friendly job and still pay the bills, I would. Maybe I'll get there someday;).

[norton]

I don't know. My 15 year old Son makes 5.15 an hour. Should he be making more? Are you willing to pay $9.00 for a #3 with a diet? Does he deserve to be making more, he does not know how to do anything and he has no skills?


What's a #3 with a diet?

[Ebbtide]

Well, it aint Surf and Turf Lol



Quaterpounder with Cheese, large Fry?

[norton]

Well, it aint Surf and Turf Lol



Quaterpounder with Cheese, large Fry?



DOH!! :rolleyes: .....(I've led a sheltered life) :lol:

[Dahon.Steve]

B-b-but...I've been told that the war in Iraq is all about oil and that we're going to just steal it all from the Iraqis.... :eek:

We still need foreign oil or the price of ours will go through the roof. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think close to 40% of our oil comes from overseas.

[nick burns]

I don't know. My 15 year old Son makes 5.15 an hour. Should he be making more? Are you willing to pay $9.00 for a #3 with a diet? Does he deserve to be making more, he does not know how to do anything and he has no skills?

Minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage. A 22 year old making 8.00 and hour renting videos and living in his parents basement is he making a living wage? Is the high school drop out living with his Baby's momma making $11.00 an hour making a living wage?

A living wage is purely subjective. I would love to make over 30K a year at my job. I do not, but I own a home, have an education, a comfortable net worth (imo) and love to ride bikes. Am I living, yes. Do I earn a wage, yes. Do I struggle to make ends meet, sure everyone does.


Well, fortunately I'd never go near a #3 w/a diet (shudder). But I do feel that people working full time jobs deserve to be paid a salary upon which they can live above poverty line, no matter if their job is considered "unskilled" labor. I'm sure there have been studies to determine what this would be. The person behind the video counter is serving a purpose in this society and deserves to be treated fairly. If a person chooses to accept a low paying job when they could easily go out and earn more, that's fine, but there are people who don't have the luxury of that choice. Would I be willing to pay more for a product or service if I knew the reason was to pay the staff a decent salary & not to pad the owner's pockets? You bet I would.

[randya]

We still need foreign oil or the price of ours will go through the roof. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think close to 40% of our oil comes from overseas.
It was about 28% in 2000.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/energy_in_the_united_states_1635-2000.htm#Figure%201

[Ebbtide]

but there are people who don't have the luxury of that choice.

Like who?

This is where the discussion usually leads, to which I reply "nonsense". We all have choices and complete control over our income and expenses. I can not think of one instances where a person did not have the choice to find a better paying job, increase their education, or save money.

[Ebbtide]

But I do feel that people working full time jobs deserve to be paid a salary upon which they can live above poverty line,

Sorry to ask (I might seem I'm badgering you , trust me I'm not) but what is considered "poverty line". At what dollar figure do we all agree upon?

Why do you feel they "deserve" the salary, did they earn it? Did they make an investment in the business, did they take the risk, put up capital, scrounge for investors?

Fortunately we live in a caring society and nobody dies from hunger, lack of shelter/clothing, or misses out on medical care. And the money to do these things come from business, you and me. So in essence, everybody already gets a living wage weather you work or not. It guess being "poor" depends on if you drive and Escalade or not, even then you still might be poor.

[nick burns]

Like who?

This is where the discussion usually leads, to which I reply "nonsense". We all have choices and complete control over our income and expenses. I can not think of one instances where a person did not have the choice to find a better paying job, increase their education, or save money.

Yeah, you're right. Those who can barely scratch together enough money to afford to get to work in the first place and take care of a family or uninsured sick relatives- they're just lazy. They should just uproot & move. Even if they don't have the money to do that. Borrow it. Same with those who may not have the capacity for further education. Yeah right.
This country has plenty of hard working people with situations like that and worse. They are citizens of this country and deserve just like the rest of us to live a decent life with decent pay. You must be pretty sheltered. Although my girlfriend is a social worker so maybe I just see and hear about more often.

Sorry to ask (I might seem I'm badgering you , trust me I'm not) but what is considered "poverty line". At what dollar figure do we all agree upon?

Why do you feel they "deserve" the salary, did they earn it?

As stated prevously, I don't know the level that constitutes poverty line.

Every hard working citizen contributing to society in the US deserves to earn a decent living. No matter what job they are in. To me, that is one of the foundations of this country.

[Ebbtide]

Yeah, you're right. Those who can barely scratch together enough money to afford to get to work in the first place and take care of a family or uninsured sick relatives- they're just lazy. They should just uproot & move. Even if they don't have the money to do that. Borrow it. Same with those who may not have the capacity for further education. Yeah right.
This country has plenty of hard working people with situations like that and worse. They are citizens of this country and deserve just like the rest of us to live a decent life with decent pay. You must be pretty sheltered. Although my girlfriend is a social worker so maybe I just see and hear about more often.



As stated prevously, I don't know the level that constitutes poverty line.

Every hard working citizen contributing to society in the US deserves to earn a decent living. No matter what job they are in. To me, that is one of the foundations of this country.

I don't think you are listening to me, or your girlfriend ;) (although I may not have been very clear), show your girlfriend my responses and she will agree with me 100%, guaranteed.

I've been an inner city social worker for 15 years and feel I know what I'm saying. People always have choices, making the right choices leads to a better life. If you do not make the right choices there are safety nets. I see terms like "poverty line, homeless, and living wage" thrown about very often by those not in the field and they have no idea what they are. A few post back you we were complaining that living off 30k is hard. Well I work with families that make 20k and are healthy, my question is where do we draw the line between personal responsibility and giving a free ride to anyone who can stay awake for 8 hours straight? I say let the market dictate what a wage should be (with minimal intrusion from the feds).

Sorry if I came off like an sheltered person, nothing could be further from the truth in this regard.

To me, that is one of the foundations of this country.

That would be communism, but we can discuss this down the dial. :D

[nick burns]

I don't think you are listening to me, or your girlfriend ;) (although I may not have been very clear), show your girlfriend my responses and she will agree with me 100%, guaranteed.

I've been an inner city social worker for 15 years and feel I know what I'm saying.

Well, I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you, cause we ain't gettin nowhere here ;)

And trust me, you don't to want to get my gf involved in this conversation (yeah, I know, I brought her up first). If you think you disagree with me, trust me you'll butt heads with her completely. She's the one who has helped shape my opinions on a lot of these issues. I used not give a second thought to these things. I can imagine you've seen some pretty rough stuff in you're 15 years in the field. Some of the stories she tells me makes me wonder how she can keep going to work day after day. Thankfully there are people like you & her.

[webist]

If greedy companies paid their employees enough to set aside money themselves for retirement, then cradle to grave benefits wouldn't be such an issue, would it?

My thninking is that $65 per hour should fall within the range of adequately paid with enough to set aside for retirement.

[FXjohn]

My thninking is that $65 per hour should fall within the range of adequately paid with enough to set aside for retirement.


65 dollars an hour/130k per year with bennies for unskilled labor?
If yoiu EARNED that much money i doubt if you'd throw that figure around.

[Lone_rider]

Hi I work for Ford Motor Co. Don't hate me for It my kids need shelter and food.