"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Masters Races and Upgrade Points

Does placing in a masters race earn points towards category upgrades? I am a 42 yo cat 4 signed up for a masters (40+) cat 1-4 race, in an event that also offers a separate, non-age-restricted cat 4 race. For upgrade point purposes, does it matter which one I enter?

Additionally, if an older masters group (50+) is combined in the same race as the 40+ group, do only the participants in the younger group count when tallying the number of participants to determine the eligible points?

I did not find an obvious answer in the USA Cycling rules, but maybe I just missed it.

Thanks.

Goose I am sure CDR can clarify but to the best of my knowledge Master's results do not qualify towards category upgrades.

I think they do in general, except for 2->1 upgrades where you only get half your points from those races.

It probably depends on your area/local upgrade coordinator too.

I thought it depended on the specifics of the field's actual racers categories... but since you're a 4 you should be able to claim any placing, since you're beating equal or higher categories. Subject to distance/field size of course.

It probably depends on your area/local upgrade coordinator too.


In any case, your local upgrade coordinator is the place to ask.

FWIW, I upgraded from 4 to 3 on top tens (rather than points) and some of those were in Masters races.

You get upgrade points in masters fields same as any other field. You can race cat 4 or the M40+1-4. The cat 4 field might be easier. Cat 1-2 masters are fast.

In Arizona, they want half of your upgrade points to come from racing your category. The rest can be from Masters. Masters racers here choose races that are likely to get them points to race category, while mostly racing masters. And of course you can double on crit days and race both.

You get upgrade points in masters fields same as any other field. You can race cat 4 or the M40+1-4. The cat 4 field might be easier. Cat 1-2 masters are fast.

Seriously. In my experience, the E3 race is almost always easier than the 45+ race.

Seriously. In my experience, the E3 race is almost always easier than the 45+ race.

Thanks, guys. If I place high enough to be in the points, I'll clarify with the MABRA rep.

And I've also heard that the masters races (which seem to be mostly combined cat 1-4 in my region) are typically faster than the open cat 4 fields, but they also typically have fewer riders. Maneuvering to a wining position might be easier (in theory) in a race with 25 as opposed to a herd of 70. I also figure I'll learn more from the masters, but I'll soon find out. (I'm guessing that I'm about to be schooled, but that's half the fun.)

Anyhow, those are the reasons that I'd like to do as many masters races as I can, and why I'm hoping that any points I earn count.

We all talk from the perspective of our personal experiences, and mine is from racing mostly Masters (50+ and 55+), but some Cat4, here in Arizona. One of my goals for next season (second season in Cat4) is to cat up to 3. As mentioned above, our district wants to see at least half your upgrade points from, in my case, Cat4 races. I believe that is because they are inherently different from the masters races, and the district upgrade coordinator recognizes that. Here are some of the differences, here in Arizona:

1. The masters races are 'smooth'. Less braking; less herky-jerkiness.
2. The Cat4 races involve a LOT more braking and re-acceleration. Drives me insane, and I've sat up from not being able to get in sync with the flow.
3. Cat4 races are often combined, either with the 3's, the 5's, or sometimes, one of each (a 3/4 and a 4/5 on the same day). The flavor is very different for each.
4. Cat4 race are really hard to win, as there is invariably a guy "on his way through" that is really strong. Some guys go from 5 to 2 in the same season.
5. Masters races are really hard to win, because you have to beat Cat2 guys with vast experience, who have forgotten things you haven't yet learned you don't know.
6. Finishing in the top 10, in a Cat4 race isn't that hard. You just need to hang with the pack, all the way through the sprint, and not blow yourself up. The biggest obstacle to that is #2, which can wear you out.
7. Finishing in the pack, in the top 10, in a 40+ masters race, is harder here. There are fewer people, but that is an age range full of 1-3's. Get to 50+ or 55+, and finishing with the pack is not that difficult. It becomes mostly 3's and 4's, with a few 2's.
8. Masters races involve tactics, and even teamwork.

Seriously. In my experience, the E3 race is almost always easier than the 45+ race.

last year i did E3 dunningan hills and was in it to win it...well until i crashed with 3 miles to go. this year i did 35+123s and was dropped with extreme prejudice 30 miles in

35+3 and 3 are mostly indistinguishable around here.

i'd say of the major races we have in Co from hardest to easiest its like

P12
35+
35+3, 3, 45+ (though the fast TT guys in 45+ are deadly)
4
35+4
45+4

i have not found that 35+3 is all that smoother than 3, but 35+ definitely is. thats the sweetspot for me, where the racing is hard and fun and smooth but not dominated by mutants.

last year i did E3 dunningan hills and was in it to win it...well until i crashed with 3 miles to go. this year i did 35+123s and was dropped with extreme prejudice 30 miles in

Just want to point out that the "1/2" part of the "35+ 1/2/3's" has more to do with those races being faster than the "35+" part.

If masters racers were faster than regular racers, they'd just race their cat in the first place and not make a whole other race for the old folks.

Just want to point out that the "1/2" part of the "35+ 1/2/3's" has more to do with those races being faster than the "35+" part.

If masters racers were faster than regular racers, they'd just race their cat in the first place and not make a whole other race for the old folks.

i know. but that being said alot of the the masters 1/2 in NCNCA do just fine in p1/2s

Just want to point out that the "1/2" part of the "35+ 1/2/3's" has more to do with those races being faster than the "35+" part.

If masters racers were faster than regular racers, they'd just race their cat in the first place and not make a whole other race for the old folks.

Many masters are regular. We've learned the value of fiber.


i know. but that being said alot of the the masters 1/2 in NCNCA do just fine in p1/2s

I caught and passed the kid I was up against in the 4k at Elite Track Nats.

USAC clearly took into account my masters results in granting my cat 1 upgrade. I'm not sure I had points with out it.

In the N.E. much of the upper crust of cycling is made up of crusty old men. Many who are former pros, national team members, olympians etc...

From 4 to 3 is usually experience with some results. Any racing with non-Cat 5s should be taken into account. Masters racing is usually much harder than a given 4 race.

For the rules I don't know the specifics. I'd actually defer to asgelle on the actual rules. On practical experience I've seen riders get upgraded based on the regional rep's judgment.

I see riders that earned their upgrades who can't race well (in the 3s). In fact I worked on a 2012 clip for a while with the focal point being a rider that can't corner - he ought to be a 5 - and then I realized that I didn't feel comfortable criticizing the guy for my own reasons (he means well but that doesn't mean he knows how to race) - all that time put into the clip and it's basically on hold.

I see riders that upgraded only on experience from 4 to 3s but they're safe, sane, and reasonably skilled 3s. Ditto 5->4.

USAC clearly took into account my masters results in granting my cat 1 upgrade. I'm not sure I had points with out it.

In the N.E. much of the upper crust of cycling is made up of crusty old men. Many who are former pros, national team members, olympians etc...

You have the crusty part down pat...

You home yet?

i know the membership coordinator or our LA (formerly a splinter group but reintegrated to USAC this year) has a lot of discretion in upgrades. around here age group racing is treated identically for upgrades in every instance except 2->1, where they just quote from the USAC book:


USAC Rule 1D2:

(a) Guidelines and Notes by Category

2-1:

30 points in any 12-month period**

50 points in 12 months is a mandatory upgrade



**For category 1 upgrades, only 10 of the points may be earned in races that are part of a training series or may be earned in master's races.

I know some people who were able to upgrade to cat-3 racing in 60+ fields in order to go to master’s nationals. I’m sure the 40+ results would count. In the case of the 40+ pack, however, I think it would be easier to get points in the cat-4 pack since the 40+ is usually a faster group.

USAC clearly took into account my masters results in granting my cat 1 upgrade. I'm not sure I had points with out it.

But you also had P/1/2/3 wins as a Master.

Back on topic. Masters fields may or may not be smaller than your category field. Small fields are a double edged sword. The odds may be better on paper, but there's also a lot less room to hide. Some of the hardest races I've done were in small fields.

But you also had P/1/2/3 wins as a Master.

Back on topic. Masters fields may or may not be smaller than your category field. Small fields are a double edged sword. The odds may be better on paper, but there's also a lot less room to hide. Some of the hardest races I've done were in small fields.


Your first sentence wasn't off topic. ;)

I had P123 wins, places and shows, yes, but clearly not enough points without them accounting for some of my masters results.

OP, all Masters upgrade points count up to Cat2. Cat2->1 10 points max from Masters under USAC. It's pretty clearly stated in the rulebook.

Yeah, I got my Cat 2 upgrade on probably 60% masters points (much harder to get than the Cat 3 stuff, fwiw).

I know a young guy recently who got cat1 on a load of local training crits and a single 3rd place at a P12.

When did masters start counting towards upgrades anyway???

My last upgrade was 1997 to cat1, and no way could I count training crits, or masters stuff.

I know when I went from 3 to 2 the rep said masters stuff didn't count. Not sure why it mattered I had twice the necessary points (read: sandbagger).

Lots of stuff has changed since 1997.

hairstyles, music, the economy, food, and just about everything besides death and taxes

jk taxes have changed!

Training races without an official scoring should not count. I don't get, though, why Masters races should not count 100% from Cat2->1. If Cat2 Masters are commonly allowed to downgrade to Cat3 to stomp the Cat3 fields, why shouldn't Cat2 Masters with enough points, but all Masters points, be allowed to upgrade to Cat1?

I always thought it's because Cat1 is supposed to be 'pure'.

I don't get, though, why Masters races should not count 100% from Cat2->1. If Cat2 Masters are commonly allowed to downgrade to Cat3 to stomp the Cat3 fields, why shouldn't Cat2 Masters with enough points, but all Masters points, be allowed to upgrade to Cat1?

Because the masters field's are filled out with 3's and 4's.
Whereas a P12 field is just that.

But I can see your argument shovelhd. I suppose I can agree that there should be some consideration for masters results. Maybe 50% of one's points at most.
Not sure what the exact rules are these days, but I'd guess there is some leeway involved.

Because the masters field's are filled out with 3's and 4's.
Whereas a P12 field is just that.


Right, but around here most of the P/1/2 races are P/1/2/3. I'd have no problem with raising the bar.

I know a young guy recently who got cat1 on a load of local training crits and a single 3rd place at a P12.

When did masters start counting towards upgrades anyway???

My last upgrade was 1997 to cat1, and no way could I count training crits, or masters stuff.

In 1997 Masters smoked cigarettes during the races.

Like everything else USAC, it's fuzzy, mostly it depends on who the upgrade person is. But the days of Cat 1 meaning you made the national team is long gone; you can make a pretty good case that what's a 2 now was a 3 then, and so on. And in 1997 the masters (veterens?) fields weren't stacked like they are these days in some locals.

I was/am also fine with a 50% rule.

Because the masters field's are filled out with 3's and 4's.
Whereas a P12 field is just that.

Not to be a hard ass, I respect you. I definitely agree that a Masters race is easier than a P12 race because, as you point out, a P12 race is all P12s.

One of the things is that in the area we have a lot of Cat 3 Masters who are national champions, both current and former. Some are 5 or 10 time champs, some probably more, one is approaching 30 national titles. They really shouldn't be 3s but they remain 3s. If the Masters that should be 2s were actually 2s you'd find a lot of the 3s transformed into 2s.

Yes, there are normal 3s and 4s in Masters races. You can tell the 4s because they tend to be less fluent in the field. This is not a dig at any 4, it's just that the rest of the field are either long time 3s or legit 2s and 1s. Almost all Cat 4 Masters are legit Cat 4s (there was one exception that comes to mind but he upgraded to 2 I think, which is what he ought to be) so they tend to be less experienced and therefore less comfortable with, say, going through a corner with a friendly elbow resting in the area between your tricep and your chest (but not actually touching you).

The "real" 3s are the pack fodder, like me.

If certain riders take the top 3 or 4 spots in a Masters race (I saw it happen this summer) it's possible that between them they have held maybe 50 or 60 national titles. That's a lot more titles than a legitimate Cat 3 should hold.

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.

Also, as stated, Cat3 Masters racers that are winning races against solid 1's and 2's should not happen. Forced Upgrades.

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.

Also, as stated, Cat3 Masters racers that are winning races against solid 1's and 2's should not happen. Forced Upgrades.

facepalm! its cat three, not turning pro. theres very little difference to be honest between the two.

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.


I see your point but how about a scenario like this: a well organized team with both Cat 3s and 4s decides to work together as a team. Each rider's strengths and weaknesses are brutally analyzed, no punches pulled. The racers are split into sprinters and leadout/"domestique" categories. Part of the brutal honesty was the team had maybe one guy that had a chance of finishing in the front group of a given road race, so we sent domestiques and him to road races, or just him himself. I mean the team sent domestiques... you get the idea.

One guy is a good domestique. He's an excellent leadout, knows how to get to the front, knows how to drill it for the sprinter, and leads out different sprinters to wide margin wins. The problem is that this leadout guy isn't placing. In fact he finishes one race 2:30 down on the winner, the guy he led out. Story here (http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/10/story-two-and-half-minutes.html).

Tom easily earns his upgrade. Doc has no points, but he's the guy that's been doing a huge amount of set up work for Tom. Should he be denied an upgrade at the end of the year? Ultimately he got the upgrade but before the next season started he moved out to nowhereland, bought a huge ranch place, and became a cowboy in his free time. Unclear how his season would have been as a 3 but I have a feeling he'd have been a good rider to have on the team.

facepalm! its cat three, not turning pro. theres very little difference to be honest between the two.

+1, that's why you need points, and only points, to get to the 1/2's.

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.

Also, as stated, Cat3 Masters racers that are winning races against solid 1's and 2's should not happen. Forced Upgrades.

Why is it BS?

I upgraded via top 10s and (a lot of) finishes in the field. That was through helping a teammate finish 3rd in the cat 4 points series for the season. We did the same thing in the 3s a year later... only he's a 2 now and I'm still a 3 for other reasons. I'm not the strongest rider, but not the dumbest either. Knowing how to keep the avg power down and handle riding in traffic goes further than strength sometimes.

A lot of it is left up to the regional upgrade coordinator, but IMO if you're placing in masters races you deserve to use the points to cat up if that's an option.

I think its BS that you can upgrade from 4 to 3 on pack finishes. You should have to show some racing prowess (tactical/ fitness/ whatever) to upgrade. Simply paying your entry fee and finishing a race(s) 30 times or whatever it is as pack fodder is pretty lame.

I"m also going to have to disagree.

It's one thing to cat up on field finishes if you are basically just surviving races and finishing in the field, but it's completely different if you are spending an entire 3/4 race working for your team and finishing in the field. I can't count how many times I was on the front reeling in a break or chasing down guys to benefit my teammates.

By "Pack finishes" I meant consistently finishing back outside the top half of a given field. I Agree that being able to upgrade on top 10's as well as points, from 4 to 3 is a great rule. Thats the way I think it should be completely though. Even though it's only Cat3. Use points or top 10's. period.

Why is it BS?
A lot of it is left up to the regional upgrade coordinator, but IMO if you're placing in 30+, 35+ or 40+ races you deserve to use the points to cat up if that's an option.

No love for us older guys?

No love for us older guys?

Better? :D

The "real" 3s are the pack fodder, like me.



"real" cat 3 here. sigh.

facepalm! its cat three, not turning pro. theres very little difference to be honest between the two.

In the races I've done and the ones I've watched, I've noticed a significant difference in skill between 3s and 4s, more than between 5's and 4s or 3s and 2s. From what I can tell, the big leaps are 4-3 and 2-1. Cat 4 seems to be the great plateau for most racers -- it's a big bottlenck in my area.

Regarding masters races counting, I agree with the sentiment about limiting the number of points that count, but only after upgrading to Cat 3. At the 4 level, everyone in a masters race is at your cat or higher anyway, and if anything, the masters races I've watched seem to be at a higher level than the open 4 races, so counting those points does not strike me as providing master racers with any advantage.

Not to be a hard ass, I respect you. I definitely agree that a Masters race is easier than a P12 race because, as you point out, a P12 race is all P12s.

One of the things is that in the area we have a lot of Cat 3 Masters who are national champions, both current and former. Some are 5 or 10 time champs, some probably more, one is approaching 30 national titles. They really shouldn't be 3s but they remain 3s. If the Masters that should be 2s were actually 2s you'd find a lot of the 3s transformed into 2s.

Yes, there are normal 3s and 4s in Masters races. You can tell the 4s because they tend to be less fluent in the field. This is not a dig at any 4, it's just that the rest of the field are either long time 3s or legit 2s and 1s. Almost all Cat 4 Masters are legit Cat 4s (there was one exception that comes to mind but he upgraded to 2 I think, which is what he ought to be) so they tend to be less experienced and therefore less comfortable with, say, going through a corner with a friendly elbow resting in the area between your tricep and your chest (but not actually touching you).

The "real" 3s are the pack fodder, like me.

If certain riders take the top 3 or 4 spots in a Masters race (I saw it happen this summer) it's possible that between them they have held maybe 50 or 60 national titles. That's a lot more titles than a legitimate Cat 3 should hold.

Hence my member status:

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is it uncommon to have categories within the master's field? around here, its masters 1/2/3, masters 4, and masters 5. they are usually further split up by 35+ and 45+. there is a lot of crossover between the P123 and the Masters 123 with guys racing, and placing, in both. this seems to create a bottleneck in our masters 4 cats, since guys will avoid upgrading so they don't have to race the master 1/2/3s.

at any rate, i don't see anything mentioned in the rule book about age category racing not counting for upgrades,with the exception of a cap on points earned for 2->1.

is it uncommon to have categories within the master's field? around here, its masters 1/2/3, masters 4, and masters 5. they are usually further split up by 35+ and 45+. there is a lot of crossover between the P123 and the Masters 123 with guys racing, and placing, in both. this seems to create a bottleneck in our masters 4 cats, since guys will avoid upgrading so they don't have to race the master 1/2/3s.

at any rate, i don't see anything mentioned in the rule book about age category racing not counting for upgrades,with the exception of a cap on points earned for 2->1.

That's being put up for discussion in FL for next season. Now, it's 30+ 40+ 50+ etc not separated by category. One of the options is to go to 35-49 123 and 35-49 4/5.

I can see why they want to do it, but can also see where it could create some sandbagging masters racers like you mentioned.

In the races I've done and the ones I've watched, I've noticed a significant difference in skill between 3s and 4s, more than between 5's and 4s or 3s and 2s. From what I can tell, the big leaps are 4-3 and 2-1. Cat 4 seems to be the great plateau for most racers -- it's a big bottlenck in my area.

Regarding masters races counting, I agree with the sentiment about limiting the number of points that count, but only after upgrading to Cat 3. At the 4 level, everyone in a masters race is at your cat or higher anyway, and if anything, the masters races I've watched seem to be at a higher level than the open 4 races, so counting those points does not strike me as providing master racers with any advantage.

i would say the real jump is 3->2. You can be a fast 3, upgrade, then just be a regular two. The speed in the 4's and 3's are very similar, as are the technique, but once you jump in with the big boys you either need to step up or downgrade.