Classic & Vintage - ID this (maybe) 1950s (maybe) Italian (maybe) racer - campy "open C" content

This just fell into my hands this morning and I'd like to know more about it.

The previous owner has had it reconditioned and repainted, I think only the shifters and front wheel are original, but they look to be gran sport "open C" and the QR has the dogbone nut. Which puts it in the 50s I think, maybe you campyphiles can confirm...

The head badge is long gone but has vertical holes spaced 34mm apart

The previous owner bought it used in the 60s he thinks, also that it used to be a track bike, also that it was "magnesium" ... So for whatever that's worth, maybe there was some tubing I don't know about?

Serial number is on the drive side seat tube near the top: 7715 with another incomprehensible punch before it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/4B0811A6-3801-412F-AF6D-1BBC248A0F9F-429-00000058A7FF9A86.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/D5A94EE7-1FBD-49D1-BC13-14D748A5FF11-429-00000058A0F2AF83.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/C4B55288-CEF9-46C9-B58B-D218C1D20C5D-429-000000589A5B4709.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/3647953E-97CB-4CD9-ADFD-6F34BC9DB432-429-0000005893EBF70C.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/4A7E388A-E46D-4BDF-AA8C-81C405BF70B2-429-000000588CFFC334.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/85576E26-488C-4D16-935A-44B738890E35-429-0000005885393206.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/BE5D6BA5-F7BE-4165-A151-79F5F38258DF-429-000000587E3166A3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/5AA669E9-5424-49C7-8DCF-A09B8DFDA2E7-429-00000058786AA16E.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/510C53E9-9802-4520-B784-AC2C1F3BBD50-429-0000005872170E17.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/2948862D-76A3-4084-B07C-C3A185A2D957-429-0000005868A95595.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/6F05E4E1-D31D-4692-A7A2-F20F415C7350-429-0000005862B383DB.jpg

People often get confused about frame material, my guess is that he was told about it being a steel alloy (in the 1960s chromoly was probably not a term people used), and that is had a high manganese content like in a carbon-manganese steel.

^ I'm not a metallurgist, but Reynolds 531 is a manganese molybdenum alloy, so that might be what he referred to as "magnesium". Looks like standard road dropouts with a derailleur hanger and dropout adjusters... not sure if they had special track dropouts or if they used road DOs at that time?

Atala

Atala

I would agree, Atala or related like a Lygie. Or Frejus, Olmo.

I would ignore the "track", and "magnesium" stuff as that's just somebody's confusion.

Looks like a later 50's bike with some updated parts.

Atala
Don't the old Atalas all have the oval-shaped headbadge with the two holes on the sides, rather than top-and-bottom?

I would ignore the "track", and "magnesium" stuff as that's just somebody's confusion.

Looks like a later 50's bike with some updated parts.

I assume the same, I asked him if he had new dropouts put in when he had it restored, he said "nope, just new paint and parts off my Fuji"


Frejus and olmo both came to mind for me as the seat cluster reminded me of my 60s frejus a bit and Olmo... i though id seen an 50s olmo pista with similar lugs a year or two ago at a show.

Thanks for the input guys...

Any ideas when the "Dogbone" QR nut was replaced with the D-ring?

Not a Frejus.

I'd guess Olmo.

Catalog 12, 1953, has D-rings on cambio corsa and paris roubaix derailleurs. That said, they were probably still making dogbones at the same time.

I forgot to add, check the lock nuts for a date.

And on the barrel on the lever side of the QR, it should say Brev Camp. Is it on one line or two?

1950s Olmo

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1278/4659396349_4156eab18a_o.jpg

"Fell" into your hands? Man, you must be living right. :thumb:

He brought it into the shop looking to trade it in, "We dont take trades... but one of the guys here really likes old bikes...." I made him a pretty fair offer at a couple hundred bucks. Prolly a good bit more than he was expecting. haha.

Of course, the locknuts! I'll check them tomorrow. I'll also drop the fork and look for some more markings.

i cant see any stamp at all on the barrel of the QR, again... closer inspection tomorrow

That red olmo is really similar but the dropouts are stamped where there is campy on mine

Could be Olmo, but there were a handful of brands (Torpedo?) that used this "fancy type" lugset back in that day...the holes for the headbadge point that way, but could be a few others that have a similar vertical hole spacing/position.
The things that point away from Olmo (for me): lack of Olmo-branded HS or seat clamp, serial number stamped on seat tube instead of seat lug, stay tip treatment at DOs...but, I wouldn't rule anything out.

I believe there is a similar looking Olmo and an Atala on ebay right now, but many Italian bikes used those lugs in the day. I'd guess late 50's, very early 60s, though I don't really know what the "open C" period was. The Stronglight crank certainly seems newer.

Cool bike!

Atala on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-VINTAGE-ATALA-FIXED-GEAR-BIKE-w-CHROME-ART-DECO-LUGS-MADE-IN-ITALY-52-/110932134709?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d4120b35#ht_614wt_1316

Nice score man.. What does the stem say on the side?

Here are some detail pics from the tear down last night...

Alloy ambrosio stem, possibly original?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/B34F0208-C46B-49CE-B64D-6B845645B888-944-0000011BD5643C53.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/06886B9C-CFB4-4C12-9BA6-68CDE4FBC554-944-0000011BCD99B44B.jpg

Gnutti bottom bracket
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/FF575807-2208-4381-83C1-55F9BDAD3B19-944-0000011BBF877B4D.jpg

Open C dropouts
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/05CA6D26-7D63-41CD-9821-F20F0C3B45AD-944-0000011BB39759EE.jpg

Stronglight Competition headset
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/26C4E788-8F83-46BC-BC5C-25A2EFE9523A-944-0000011BAACDA144.jpg

Steel campy GS front hub w/ some fancy spokes, gnutti maybe? No date stamp
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/46624F3E-3CF4-4771-AE96-8CBDCEF94B43-944-0000011B9D911881.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/F8CE361A-CA13-41E8-95BB-89B4C43B4B1A-944-0000011B7749159B.jpg

Rear replacement wheel, hi flange campy "no record" hub dated '61

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/3EF771DF-F6C9-4861-819B-796AFE6C9BA7-944-0000011B70441E33.jpg

Size stamp on steerer tube and maybe some original color?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/40523CDE-8670-425F-8D9C-9CB0ED34A318-944-0000011B8CA812FD.jpg

Original front 50s qr and rear 1961 qr, no stamp on the barrel of the old one

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/38248580-E026-46CB-8C0A-3CB6F8119999-944-0000011B7F935973.jpg

Steel campy seatpost, stamped 9 on front and 1 on back at the very bottom

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/FEB6D9FB-EAA2-4E49-86B7-EAF2E12545B4-944-0000011B69527B5E.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/8411C18D-8338-4DFD-A278-A762ADBBE3BF-944-0000011B6112B049.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/5EF685CA-897C-4AA9-8732-81277BE5D785-944-0000011B531BC5B3.jpg

The spokes are Stella. Star head Logos are right for the 50's or early 60's.

Cool seat post! I'm restoring one that looks like it was attacked with a monkey wrench, it's going to take a ton of work to make right. Yours looks to be in great shape.

The bike is probably from the late 50's.

Cool find, what do you have planned for it?

I love the star head stella spokes ! Love the detail ! It's details like that that make it Classic !

Cant wait to see it all cleaned up ! GL with your cool project.

Joe

......though I don't really know what the "open C" period was.

Cool bike!



Me either. Anyone know the date/period of the open C logo?

Brian

Size stamp on steerer tube and maybe some original color?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/40523CDE-8670-425F-8D9C-9CB0ED34A318-944-0000011B8CA812FD.jpg

Am I detecting what might be "Celeste"? :eek:
Sure would not bet on this being a Bianchi, but who else used a similar color?
The Torpedo team color was called "celeste" but it was very much a sky blue, no mistaking it for the Bianchi color, despite the names being the same.
The Stronglight HS must be a later upgrade, but a nice one...in all a totally great score and great project!

I'd also guess mid to late 50s.

The front FB hub. FB stamped a date on their cones in the 30s, 40s and into the early 50s. After that, the date stamps seemed to stop.

The Ambrosio stem fits that timeline. The I-beam style went out in the late 40s, real early 50s. The stair-step on your stem went out of favor by 1960.

I'd also agree the spokes are really cool. But I know I wouldn't want to ride 60-tear-old spokes.

Open C dropouts
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/k3davis/05CA6D26-7D63-41CD-9821-F20F0C3B45AD-944-0000011BB39759EE.jpg

4mm or 3mm adjuster bolts (4mm is older)?

In the title, I like the (maybe) Italian.

You were given Italian brands but this could also be a lesser known brand or even coming from another country since lots of frame builders used these type of lugs

As an example, something German that is not the same as yours :
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-m5DBmUwqrGQ/TBOf5XDpGOI/AAAAAAAAFzc/KXgBLTv9DR0/s512/IMG_8743.JPG

This is the Campa equiped GoldRad of Fin de Cycle : http://picasaweb.google.com/100823963901259062523/GoldRad?gsessionid=3fNyjzUCAfrVciw721BseQ#

I've got the same equiped with Simplex derailleurs
https://picasaweb.google.com/117832805820694867578/GoldRad#

This is just to say that putting a name would be very difficult
But it is a very nice frame.

Surprisingly several component are either french or with french stamps (the stem)

What are the BB dimensions, including shell width and cup threading? A 70mm shell width strongly indicates Italian, and 36mmx24TPI threading cinches it.

I was thinking Olmo or Frejus, myself.

Perhaps the rear hub is the original one.

For what it's worth, the serial number is in the location that Capo and Allegro used circa 1960. I am thinking that vintage for your bike.

A 70mm shell width strongly indicates Italian,

This is an indication, but not an evidence.
The German brand I was quoting used 70 mm Italian threading BB and even if the majority used the standard threadings, I've already seen Italian threading on Belgian bikes.


Perhaps the rear hub is the original one.


The wheels are the most easy things to change on a bike.

They are nice

Cool bike for sure. Bottecchia?

The blue paint that pokes through is more of a blue than green, so making a big assumption that it's the original color.... It seems to look much like the Torpado blue.

Also Torpado is the only frame I've seen with this lugset that does not use a seat clamp as Olmo and Atala. Also most of the pics I see of bikes with these lugs have stamped dropouts.. Granted I'm just looking at pics on flikr and other internets. There really isn't much to go by.

The problem with Torpado thus far is that they all seem to have horizontally spaced headbadhe holes.


BTW, my frame has an Italian BB