Classic & Vintage - 650B Rodriguez Arrow Conversion

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9XKbPKyWX_E/UC6pS6aLEMI/AAAAAAAACA4/3-pgW8dNq80/s640/IMG337.jpg

650B conversion of a custom Rodriguez Race Arrowhead. I am the 3rd owner of the bike. Tubes are OX Platinum. As you can see the bike is a little bit of the "French Fit" style :P. I noticed people have been talking about different fit styles lately. It's a 2002 frame and came with a threadless fork. I wanted to blend the old and new a little bit with a quill stem and DT shifters, but using newer parts.

- DA 9s DT Shifters
- DA Long cage RD
- FSA FD
- Ultegra level generic cranks.
- Ultegra hubs laced to 650B Velocity Syngergy rims (built by me) on an 11-32 cassette. I had to reverse the B-Screw to get adequate clearance between the jockey and the cogs. These are the 32mm Maxy Fasty tires. I will switch to either B-lines or Hetres in the future. These are fine for the time being.
- MKS Grip Kings.
- Replaced the carbon fork with a TIG'd Tange Chrome fork. The old fork had some cracks around the crown... I went threaded due to a lack of silver 1" threadless stems. I am probably going to go with a different tange fork that I just picked up. It's a NOS lugged flat crown, but it lacks the fender braze-ons. Is it worth it to go with P-clamps?
- VO Grand Cru threaded cartridge headset. If you don't care about the branding, this is a GREAT headset whether it is threaded or threadless. Highly recommended.
- 3T Comp bars and stem. Will probably go with a Nitto Technomic.
- Cane Creek SCR-5 levers.
- Tektro long reach dual pivots.
- American Classic Seatpost.
- Brooks B17 Narrow.

I will choose tape as son as I decide between B17 black or B17 narrow brown (as pictured).

The frame as I got it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UTpFbHk1-d8/T4SU5KrW2iI/AAAAAAAABq8/RlNbqAU_qZQ/s640/IMG120.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uXAjyspjEUE/T4SUinwZrtI/AAAAAAAABqs/SJP4cn8AuHk/s640/IMG124.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-InfIqIqSuo4/T4SUykhLxhI/AAAAAAAABq0/-c6nGk_ZI54/s640/IMG122.jpg

Sweet ride!!!

Is there enough room for 38-42 tires? I think a flat crown fork with p-clamps would look better than a uni-crown with eyelets, but that's just me. Fenders?

Cheers,
Chris

Nearly spot on. I think a stainless steel bottle cage would make it perfect.

I think I m going to vote brown saddle and tape. I think it complements the outline on the letters and the natural tires well.

Nice one.

A small velcro safety strip around the pump / top-tube would be good. Frame mounted pumps can hop out occasionally - if it goes through someone's spokes they'll fall.

Nice. Why not see if Rodriguez/R+E will build a new fork for you?

Like this build a lot.

Looks like a great all arounder.

I like the relaxed fit and you probably will as well.

Tape those bars and hit the road!

Also, I think Mudboy has a great idea. The frame is certainly a keeper.

Nice. Why not see if Rodriguez/R+E will build a new fork for you?

Also, Mudboy are you the builder of those cool bikes in your Flickr?

I'm impressed!

Also, Mudboy are you the builder of those cool bikes in your Flickr?

I'm impressed!

I am. I'm about to start number four, which will be a KOF road frame.

I am. I'm about to start number four, which will be a KOF road frame.

Well then, I tip my hat to you.

They are unique, well thought designs.

Very classy, that's for sure.

I'll be a vistor to your Flickr more often. :)

Sweet ride!!!

Is there enough room for 38-42 tires? I think a flat crown fork with p-clamps would look better than a uni-crown with eyelets, but that's just me. Fenders?

Cheers,
Chris

You are probably right re: fork. The fork probably can't handle anything bigger than 36mm so that makes the choice easier. I will show some pics with clearances.


Nearly spot on. I think a stainless steel bottle cage would make it perfect.

I will eventually go with some Iris cages. This is just there for now so I don't get too thirsty on my test rides.


I think I m going to vote brown saddle and tape. I think it complements the outline on the letters and the natural tires well.

The brown certainly looks better. Of course, it all depends on what fits better. So I far I like the B17N, but I haven't tried a regular B17 in a while and the one I have is black.


Nice one.

A small velcro safety strip around the pump / top-tube would be good. Frame mounted pumps can hop out occasionally - if it goes through someone's spokes they'll fall.

Yeah, but this has a peg to keep everything in place and the pump is slightly too long for the frame. Putting the pump on takes some technique. It's on there.


Nice. Why not see if Rodriguez/R+E will build a new fork for you?

Time will decide this. I will run the chrome fork until I know I want this frame enough to get a custom fork.


Like this build a lot.

Looks like a great all arounder.

I like the relaxed fit and you probably will as well.

Tape those bars and hit the road!

Also, I think Mudboy has a great idea. The frame is certainly a keeper.

Yep. This frame is made for the short commute and trails. Thanks for the kind words.

Big picture of the bike in case the ads squished the pic in my first post:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9XKbPKyWX_E/UC6pS6aLEMI/AAAAAAAACA4/3-pgW8dNq80/s640/IMG337.jpg

CS clearance should be able to go a lot wider.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DNVi4NnaAK4/UDF0KY_hcTI/AAAAAAAACBI/5suBT4K8Uuw/s512/IMG343.jpg

Fork clearance (this is the unicrown).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AJN42zYbCwE/UDF0OPn5alI/AAAAAAAACBY/5yB6r3P9apw/s512/IMG341.jpg

Here is the proposed fork. The crown is nice and wide and it looks classier on the frame.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uRDtOZGY21c/UDF0QQAc9eI/AAAAAAAACBg/Rz9TgqrcM68/s512/IMG340.jpg

I will be REALLY surprised if this one doesn't turn into a keeper once it's all built-up. Your parts list is going to make this bike kick some serious a@*! If you end up liking it, I would also vote for a custom fork from R+E Cycles with some rake and tire clearance for 42c with fenders. This will complete the "French Fit" you're looking for.

I'm looking forward to seeing it with the new fork. I'm not digging the crankset.

I'm looking forward to seeing it with the new fork. I'm not digging the crankset.

Yeah, unfortunately square taper 165 110BCD cranks are hard to find. I am using 165s on here because 1) I am short and the seat tube on this bike is larger than I usually ride (but the top tube is perfect) and 2) I thought I might need the cornering clearance because of the BB drop, which is still well within range of a conversion, and the clunky MKS Lamdas. However, I do really enjoy riding on external BB cranks. The energy transfer is amazing. I am hoping I can eventually find something like a Sugino Alpina or one of those old school Sugino TA-copy cranks.

I will be rethreading the new fork today. I have to add about 1.5", which will take close to an hour to do... It was fun the first time on the unicrown fork, but I'm not really looking forward to it again.

The fork isn't threaded? You can't or don't want to run a 1" threadless setup?

The fork isn't threaded? You can't or don't want to run a 1" threadless setup?

It is threaded, but the threads have to be extended. I'm not sure if there is enough unthreaded steerer to run a threadless for a zero saddle-bar drop. I usually run a couple inches of drop, but I wanted this to be a relaxed all-'rounder.

10-4.

However, I do really enjoy riding on external BB cranks. The energy transfer is amazing. I am hoping I can eventually find something like a Sugino Alpina or one of those old school Sugino TA-copy cranks.


I think if you're enjoying the feel of those new shimano cranks you'll likely be disappointed in the feel of a 50.4 BCD crank.

Ive got a build in progress that uses a lot of the same drivetrain parts you're using here. I had it set up with 650B 32's for most of the summer but i didn't feel the fat tire magic like you get with 38-42s...they just kinda felt like a nice pair of 700x28's, which is fine, but for me pointless. Essentially I was getting the downsides of a 650B conversion with none of the benefits of wide tires that i was looking for.

Interesting Build you've got going. Thar be some long chainstays on that little beast!

Hows that Dura-Ace RD workin out with the 32T cog? I was considering trying that but the specs are only for a max of 27T so I didn't wanna push it that far without at least seeing someone else have some luck

I think if you're enjoying the feel of those new shimano cranks you'll likely be disappointed in the feel of a 50.4 BCD crank.

Ive got a build in progress that uses a lot of the same drivetrain parts you're using here. I had it set up with 650B 32's for most of the summer but i didn't feel the fat tire magic like you get with 38-42s...they just kinda felt like a nice pair of 700x28's, which is fine, but for me pointless. Essentially I was getting the downsides of a 650B conversion with none of the benefits of wide tires that i was looking for.

Interesting Build you've got going. Thar be some long chainstays on that little beast!

Hows that Dura-Ace RD workin out with the 32T cog? I was considering trying that but the specs are only for a max of 27T so I didn't wanna push it that far without at least seeing someone else have some luck

Agreed on the tire width my alternative right now is some CLDVs, which I might throw on if I can hit the trails this summer. I can't decide whether a lower end high volume tire or a higher quality lower volume tire is better. My commute is on a paved MUP so I am content with a 32 for the time being.

The DA RD can clear the 32t on this frame. I had to take the B screw out and reverse it to get the clearance, but all is dandy!

And the CS length is an illusion with that 32mm 650B wheel. It's actually 42.5. This is a race frame with eyelets for fenders and a rack.

For trails I'd think you're better off with the Col de la Soul. ...but in general I'm a fan of high quality, high volume :)

And the CS length is an illusion with that 32mm 650B wheel. It's actually 42.5. This is a race frame with eyelets for fenders and a rack.

Interesting! I was also under the impression you had at least 45 cm CS. I'm also surprised to see that much tire clearance. 42.5 CS should give you that nice "lively feeling" unloaded, but enough to even do some light touring without heel strike. Yeah, I can see why this could easily be an all-'rounder.

I agree with Zaphod that you should definitely look into 38-42c to complete this build. I would definitely go for something sold at Compass. Lucky that they're local for you! The Col de Vie sound like a good option, but once you have it all built-up, I'd suggest taking it to the shop to get their input.

PS. Just went over your build list again. No fenders in Seattle?

Nicely done.

Interesting! I was also under the impression you had at least 45 cm CS. I'm also surprised to see that much tire clearance. 42.5 CS should give you that nice "lively feeling" unloaded, but enough to even do some light touring without heel strike. Yeah, I can see why this could easily be an all-'rounder.

I agree with Zaphod that you should definitely look into 38-42c to complete this build. I would definitely go for something sold at Compass. Lucky that they're local for you! The Col de Vie sound like a good option, but once you have it all built-up, I'd suggest taking it to the shop to get their input.

PS. Just went over your build list again. No fenders in Seattle?

Here is the geo from R&E: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-582NZ979QQI/UDKdix5L-LI/AAAAAAAACB8/0RgZdmaZIdk/s720/51cm%2520Arrow%2520Race%25202005-page-001.jpg

I will definitely be getting fenders! Right now I'm just being stubborn because of the nice weather. That's why I asked about the lugged fork without eyelets :)

Today I am going to thread the fork and change out the stem to a nitto technomic. As it sits that 3T stem goes just below the bearing cups, which is within the safety limits. The technomic will go deeper to closer to the bottom cup. This, with the added steer tube height, should give it a bit more rigidity. I will also eventually go with a compact bar. Probably the Soma Hwy One.

^^^
Got it!! Man, I can't wait to see your bike all built up!

Any pics of the reversed b screw? Curious.........

I can take one if you really want one. It's not that exciting :P

I'll probably just end up using a longer screw when I find one.

An update: Fork is on, got some red hetres, put on the wood-bed rack, and trying out the B17 black now rather than the narrow. What do you think of the black saddle/black tape vs brown? What do you think of the new fork? I think it looks better even though it contrasts with the lugless frame.

Here are some pics:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hy5H9p3o-t0/UERTSWDtJjI/AAAAAAAACI4/qpGrsbRdgI4/s640/IMG391.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hvciEM5VMXA/UERS8JdbymI/AAAAAAAACIU/JrMaZweO6tI/s640/IMG394.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TwGRJHIew6o/UERTD4RS4YI/AAAAAAAACIo/5i69NA4DsIQ/s640/IMG396.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ykCaVHn4nv0/UERTJAK3LoI/AAAAAAAACIw/_OdlhBolsVU/s640/IMG392.jpg

Glad to see an update on this beautiful Rodriguez!

Definitely like it better with the black saddle/black tape combination. As far as the fork goes, looks good, too. With the Hetres now in, will you still have enough clearance for fenders? BTW, fenders in stainless steel or shiny aluminum (as opposed to black) will look great, imo.

Woody rack - hmmm not sure if I like it. Must be the honey color on the wood platform not matching anything else on the bike. It might look better if it matched better the red color on the Hetres. Otherwise, a similar rack (all silver) might look better. All in all, this is minor though.

Now, the million dollar question after all these changes, tell us HOW DOES IT RIDE? :)

Sweet ride!!!

Is there enough room for 38-42 tires? I think a flat crown fork with p-clamps would look better than a uni-crown with eyelets, but that's just me. Fenders?

Cheers,
Chris

I seem to be late in this thread (hey, wait for me!), but ...

Even better would be a flat or forged crown with eyelets!

Depending on how one likes the bike to ride, it might be worthwhile to get a fork that will deliver the trail the frame was originally designed for. You can measure that off the original fork, or perhaps Rodriquez could look it up or give you good advice. Having a custom fork built is not always super $$, and you can get it nailed for blade length, brake type, rack or low-rider mounts, lighting mounts, offset, flexiness, tire clearance, headlamp wire guiding, generator mounts, or ... can't think of anything else. Buying forks you're essentially rolling the dice each time.

I think if you're enjoying the feel of those new shimano cranks you'll likely be disappointed in the feel of a 50.4 BCD crank.

Ive got a build in progress that uses a lot of the same drivetrain parts you're using here. I had it set up with 650B 32's for most of the summer but i didn't feel the fat tire magic like you get with 38-42s...they just kinda felt like a nice pair of 700x28's, which is fine, but for me pointless. Essentially I was getting the downsides of a 650B conversion with none of the benefits of wide tires that i was looking for.

Interesting Build you've got going. Thar be some long chainstays on that little beast!

Hows that Dura-Ace RD workin out with the 32T cog? I was considering trying that but the specs are only for a max of 27T so I didn't wanna push it that far without at least seeing someone else have some luck

When I sold my Woodrup I put its 700x32c wheels on my Trek 610. I changed the tires from 32's to 28's, and did not notice much difference on that frame. I sympathize regarding the 32's being too narrow.

The radial and lateral clearances on that frame are starting to become tight with those 42's. Heine and Peterson agree (!!!) that it's desirable to have 15 mm or more radial clearance between the tire and the chainstay bridge, seatstay bridge, and fork crown underside in order to have good clearance (8 to 10 mm) between the tire and the fender. If you don't have enough clearance here, road debris could cause the tire to jam while you're riding, leading to fender failure or a crash. Or careful riding.

The issue with tight lateral clearance is intolerance of misalignment. If a spoke or two fails and the rim springs out of true, it might not be possible to ride the bike home.

Glad to see an update on this beautiful Rodriguez!

Definitely like it better with the black saddle/black tape combination. As far as the fork goes, looks good, too. With the Hetres now in, will you still have enough clearance for fenders? BTW, fenders in stainless steel or shiny aluminum (as opposed to black) will look great, imo.

Woody rack - hmmm not sure if I like it. Must be the honey color on the wood platform not matching anything else on the bike. It might look better if it matched better the red color on the Hetres. Otherwise, a similar rack (all silver) might look better. All in all, this is minor though.

Now, the million dollar question after all these changes, tell us HOW DOES IT RIDE? :)

I plan on getting these since they are on sale: http://store.velo-orange.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/530x530/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/e/fe-0043_1_1.jpg

You are right regarding the rack. I have a nitto rack sitting on my other bike that I might swap out. Alternatively, I can also remove the wood bed from this.

The ride is awesome. Super cushy + quick handling since this bike was built as more of a race build. The MKS grip kings are really nice and give you very secure footing. It doesn't come close to clipless pedals, but I think it's nice to have at least 1 bike in the stable that you can take anywhere at any time. I took this on a short gravel trail and the hetres aren't as secure offroad as I hoped they would be. CLDV's do much better on gravel since they have a little bite to them. One thing I don't like about 650B is climbing in them. Although the low pressure and high volume soaks up bumps on flats and rides very quickly, the tire compression when climbing slow you down on the hills, especially if you like to mash.


I seem to be late in this thread (hey, wait for me!), but ...

Even better would be a flat or forged crown with eyelets!

Depending on how one likes the bike to ride, it might be worthwhile to get a fork that will deliver the trail the frame was originally designed for. You can measure that off the original fork, or perhaps Rodriquez could look it up or give you good advice. Having a custom fork built is not always super $$, and you can get it nailed for blade length, brake type, rack or low-rider mounts, lighting mounts, offset, flexiness, tire clearance, headlamp wire guiding, generator mounts, or ... can't think of anything else. Buying forks you're essentially rolling the dice each time.

The fork on there rides really nicely. It is a little dated for this frame, but it matches up closely in terms of rake and A-C length. Down the line, I will get a fork built to match and possibly build up a dynamo. For now, I will outline the fork lugs in gold to at least give it a little more semblance to the frame.


The radial and lateral clearances on that frame are starting to become tight with those 42's. Heine and Peterson agree (!!!) that it's desirable to have 15 mm or more radial clearance between the tire and the chainstay bridge, seatstay bridge, and fork crown underside in order to have good clearance (8 to 10 mm) between the tire and the fender. If you don't have enough clearance here, road debris could cause the tire to jam while you're riding, leading to fender failure or a crash. Or careful riding.

The issue with tight lateral clearance is intolerance of misalignment. If a spoke or two fails and the rim springs out of true, it might not be possible to ride the bike home.

There is about 3mm on each side of the the chainstays. So it's close, but it's not awful. If I pop a spoke, I deserve to walk home because it would have been me who didn't properly tension these wheels :P At 145lbs and 32 spokes + low pressure/high volume tires, I don't think I'll have any problems. The pictures don't show it, but there is ample room between the tire/crown and tire/brake bridge. It will be fine for fenders.

A warning to everyone regarding 650B tires. It can be a huge pain getting the bead to seat properly in the hooks. Even with adequate seating, you can still get a relatively large wobble in your tire. I have tried 3 or 4 times to get a tiny wobble out, but it's pretty difficult. Jan Heine has talked about this and there is also currently a thread about it in the 650B group... Time to whip out the soapy water or talc.

Next up - Finding a new seatpost for this. Not really feeling the American Classic. Also trying to get some compact silver 26.0 bars. Some is out of stock for now. If you know anyone with a set or have any, speak up!

Some new pics. I have put on soma hwy one compact bars, which are awesome. I found a team pro that matches the colors well. I switched out the AC seatpost for a dura ace one. I switched out the 50t for a 48t. The salsa ring doesn't have any ramps or pins so the shifting isn't as buttery, but it works for my purposes. Might have a sugino AT triple crank coming in. I would run it as a compact double with 46-48/30. I also added a Retro VO cage that I need to find a match for.

I also bought fenders but ran into some issues at the rear bridge. It's a bit tight, but I think I can get everything to fit. They really are the missing pieces to this. Might have to chat with the folks at Rodriguez to build me a low trail fork with eyelets sometime soon too.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1penCIvu70E/UK1Ny7COveI/AAAAAAAACi8/FHYyLi9lwWc/s640/IMG524.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5sHqrCyij2k/UK1OfeLTMlI/AAAAAAAACjw/9FJjohztp8I/s640/IMG528.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c2gavYbuDPo/UK1OzPaX-4I/AAAAAAAACkA/k1HF9Ar-pCw/s640/IMG525.jpg

This bike is looking more AWESOME every time I see it. Hope you can make the fenders fit. In regard to the low trail fork, that sounds like a great idea. Souncs like you'll be using this bike for commuting. If so, besides eyelets, you might also consider getting your custom fork built with those new dropouts (http://www.compasscycle.com/lighting_delux_sl.html) for a "connector-less" generator light. You can spend the $ on a generator wheel conversion later, but you'll be pleased to have the special dropouts already installed. :thumb:

Love this build, amazing.

Very nice, dude! It looks much better with Pro and the new bars.

good move on ditching the carbon fork

well i guess it was necessary huh

well i guess it was necessary huh

Yessir, though I must say, if it were in fine condition and had fenders/adequate clearance, I would've kept it. Nothing like an OX Plat tubeset complimented by a carbon fork. Sorry fellas, I'm a heretic after I got my Gunnar Sport, which is set up with a carbon fork.

Met Scozim today. Chatted a bit, did some parts exchanging. Nice to put a face to the names here.

Anyways, stay tuned for a more classic looking crankset. Sugino AT 165mm. Will try it out as a rando compact 46/30. Might take a while because I hate polishing things!

dont polish it! i think its time for this bike to get diiiirty!

ah you picked my favorite pedals! if they aren't grippy enough for you, don't be afraid to spike em. it does wonders

How I've been riding it for the past month:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NoJgZM6urj0/URKdZqd4lfI/AAAAAAAACoI/R_0TEOjuYZY/s720/IMG589.jpg

I've been commuting on this 10 mile roundtrip just about every day and it's been a blast. I get compliments on the Burke Gilman all the time. Lots of people asking if I ride with Jan heine too :P

The fenders took some work to get on. Had to use P-clamps on the fork, which which actually works pretty well. Had to trim them at the chain stays and dimple them at the bridge/fork. Hetres are kind of a pain to get perfectly mounted on synnergies. The front has a hop that I cannot, for the life of me, get rid of. Even an extra 5 PSI will give it enough hop to touch the front fender. I am thinking about moving to B-lines.

Still planning to change the crank to 165mm Sugino AT and run 46/30 gearing. Will probably knock the rear down to an 11-28 instead of the 11-32 (with 48/34 up front) right now.

Has a Selle Anatomica, which I am enjoying the more I ride. I will have to throw the team pro back on just to remember what it was like.

I am toying with the idea of running VO porteur bars, reverse levers, and paul thumbies with the 9s DA shifters. What does everyone think about that?