Classic & Vintage - Alex Singer... or repainted Peugeot?

Hello. I recently bought a bike from a seller in California. I got the bike in the mail, and it doesn't quit make sense. It looks to be repainted, and the lugs don't seem to be up to Alex Singer standards. The drop outs are stamped, rather than cast, there is no serial number. All the parts, threads, and diameters are French (fork inner diameter, BB threads. seatpost diam 25.8).

The top tube has two cable runners
-There is a generator braze on mount
-fork crown looks cheap
-It looks like a Peugeot PX50

Let me know what you guys think, but I think I bought a fake Alex Singer.

(http://img825.imageshack.us/i/dsc0101xc.jpg/)

[img=http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2176/dsc0109ci.jpg] (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/dsc0109ci.jpg/)

[IMG]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8259/dsc0102g.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/i/dsc0102g.jpg/)

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/715/dsc0133fk.jpg (http://img812.imageshack.us/i/dsc0133fk.jpg/)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9472/dsc0110fb.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/dsc0110fb.jpg/)

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/219/dsc0121ixa.jpg (http://img855.imageshack.us/i/dsc0121ixa.jpg/)

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4982/dsc0117sg.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/dsc0117sg.jpg/)

I don't no anything about Alex Singer bikes but yes this is a repaint over bad original French paint. The lugs look mid level French and the strait pipe treatment on the rear drops looks low end. I hope you didn't pay a whole lot for this bike.

Reminds me of my lady's French-only PX 45. But you know this after our length investigative discussion on the phone.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg93/realestvin7/Bikes/For_Sale1834.jpg

Looks pretty similar to Jeunet style. I mean I'm no expert, but I'd bet certainly not a real Singer....Hope you can work that out with the seller....!

Joe

Singer just rolled over in his grave an alivit schwinn approved rear derailleur mon dieu

Looks pretty similar to Jeunet style. I mean I'm no expert, but I'd bet certainly not a real Singer....Hope you can work that out with the seller....!

Joe

Yes, The lug work does look a lot like that done on most Jeunets the front lugs match a Jeunet but the rear dropouts are very different Jeunets had fairly nicely done bullet style treatment even on the low end models.

I hope you didn't pay a whole lot for this bike.

It looks like the auction closed at $3100.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120970341095&item=120970341095&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

Here is a full non drive side pic.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/4/2/3/7/6/3/webimg/598773439_o.jpg

NOT a Peugeot

grahamss210 is the OP and Ebay seller....

grahamss210 is the OP and Ebay seller....

Interesting...

So the OP,grahamss210 on both eBay and bikeforums, sold this bike on eBay on August 17. Then made this post on August 18 here. Yikes.

so the op,grahamss210 on both ebay and bikeforums, sold this bike on ebay on august 17. Then made this post on august 18 here. Yikes.

ok, wth?!?

So, Graham ...would you like to talk?

ouuu drama

I want to hear from the person who paid over $3,000.00 for it. :eek:

I think that bike originally sold for $1500 not 3K

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item3a77eb9a23&item=251120032291&nma=true&pt=Road_Bikes&rt=nc&si=fF5iI3LPfUPXNhCnMP9yk59jxVk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Sure doesn't look like an Alex Singer nor a Pug, looks like a cheap gas pipe impostor.

It looks like the auction closed at $3100.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120970341095&item=120970341095&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

Here is a full non drive side pic.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/4/2/3/7/6/3/webimg/598773439_o.jpg

Even though the above link still works, it brings you to a summary of the auction. If you click on "See original listing", it seems it has been removed. Don't know if that's normal.

To amend my post immediately above:

It says that the seller ended the auction.

Maybe he cancelled it early over concerns?

Maybe he cancelled it early over concerns?............

Seems logical. If it were larger and $100, I'd like to have it and paint "ITSNOTA" on the top tube.

To amend my post immediately above:
It says that the seller ended the auction.
Maybe he cancelled it early over concerns?

Aahhh, I think your right.

Bought an "Alex Singer" labeled bike.
Tried to sell it on ebay for a tidy profit.
Got lots of emails saying "NOT!"
Ended the auction early.
Came here to ask.

Still further intrigue..... The OP/Buyer/ Seller claims he bought the bike frol Calif but the auction (before being pulled) shows TX as the item location. Weird.

This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.|









Alex Singer 650b touring bike randonneur 52cm Ideale huret TA Rene Herse Mafac

See original listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=120970341095,120970341095&lgeo=1&si=POOz2t5y8oiLaOU%252FP%252BzElhx7Q9U%253D&viewitem=&vectorid=229466&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)



http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Alex-Singer-650b-touring-bike-randonneur-52cm-Ideale-huret-TA-Rene-Herse-Mafac-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/$T2eC16V,!zEE9s3!YY5WBQLtlNMksQ~~60_1.JPG?set_id=880000500F

Image not available



http://p.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/viewitem/imgEndedCvi_96x96.png (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=120970341095,120970341095&lgeo=1&si=POOz2t5y8oiLaOU%252FP%252BzElhx7Q9U%253D&viewitem=&vectorid=229466&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc)



Item condition:

--



Ended:

Aug 17, 201221:35:58 PDT



Price:

US $3,100.00



Shipping:

Read item description or contact seller for details.



Item location:

Dallas, Texas, United States



Seller:

Member id grahamss210 (http://myworld.ebay.com/grahamss210/?_trksid=p4340.l2559) ( Feedback Score Of 880 (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=grahamss210&ssPageName=VIP:feedback)http://q.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconPurpleStar_25x25.gif) http://p.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icons/iconTrsMini.gif

So.... It seems that OP bought it from Cal, hoped to flip it, found out its not what he thought and ended the auction (amidst plenty of cursing I imagine) and is now trying to....?

A. Get with the original seller for a refund
B. Chalk it up to experience
C. Unload it (heaven forbid) on the local market
D. All of the above

No matter how you slice it though, it pretty much sucks for the OP.


Joe

CAVEAT EMPTOR...

Yeah, I think the OP is the one who has been scammed, not the scammer. Sucks, I hope it was purchased via eBay.

edit: I see that it was indeed purchased through eBay, I hope the OP updates us with how the issue is resolved, I am curious to see how eBay/Paypal handles this

..... I hope the OP updates us with how the issue is resolved, I am curious to see how eBay/Paypal handles this

+1 Brian

It's not a fake Alex Singer. It's an Alex Singer replica. Let's get it right guys. :innocent:

Guess Alex is singing the blues over this one..................I think I'm gonna turn one of my bikes into a Jerry Springer.
Or maybe a Rolex ?....................I always wanted a Rolex.

Guys, he is a good friend of mine. He's entertaining some family today, so he's probably busy.

He won the bike on eBay as-is a couple weeks ago. He cleaned it a bit and took better pics (as he is famous for). So he relisted it last night but had a sneaking suspicion something was amiss. He called me and I confirmed his reservations about reselling the bike so I told him to pull the auction. Now we're investigating what this truly is out of curiosity while he waits for the eBay item dispute case to complete. Sort of getting proof that the original sale was fraudulent.

Hope that clears things up.

let us know how it works out

You might want to advise your friend that flipping bikes on
e-bay is probably not the safest way to make a buck.

It's actually kinda difficult to make 1500 bucks flipping a bike
in person, when you can actually see it..........but he probably
realizes this by now.

I looked at the feedback for the Oakland seller......100% on
234 exchanges.........so I think it's not out of the question
that he (or she) was also misinformed on this one.

FWIW Oakland is often the place where San Fran stolen bikes
end up on their way to a new home. Would not surprise me
if the seller refunds your friend's money.

He can probably get a comprehensive list of inaccuracies to make his case if he contacts Jan Heine.

So he relisted it last night but had a sneaking suspicion something was amiss.
Hope that clears things up.

With no offense meant to your pal, this part of your explanation sort of bothers me. If he had a suspicion something was amiss, he should never have been listed on ebay as a Singer. IMO.

No connection at all, but about ten days ago they were discussing the credibility of another SF-area Singer over on the CR listserv. I think they wound up sort of deciding it was a credible Singer, but opinions were not universal. This other "Singer" was listed on SF Craig's List. (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/3190342995.html)

I don't recall if Jan weighed in on it on CR, but I agree that he would be a good authority to confirm/deny the probability of the bike under discussion here in our forum. I'm far from an authority, but I would feel very clear in my mind saying the black one in this thread isn't a Singer.

I am no expert on Singers or any other marque for that matter. But it doesn't come close to meeting the level of detail that I have seen on even the lowest end of the Singers. No clue as to the why or what of this bike. IMHO it never should have been listed the first time as a Singer. There is an interesting little thing called "due diligence" and too many people seem to get greedy and forget about that little thing. I would rather give something away than misrepresent it.

Aaron :)

No connection at all, but about ten days ago they were discussing the credibility of another SF-area Singer over on the CR listserv. I think they wound up sort of deciding it was a credible Singer, but opinions were not universal. This other "Singer" was listed on SF Craig's List. (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/3190342995.html)

I don't recall if Jan weighed in on it on CR, but I agree that he would be a good authority to confirm/deny the probability of the bike under discussion here in our forum. I'm far from an authority, but I would feel very clear in my mind saying the black one in this thread isn't a Singer.

That's been up for a couple of months here, and I share the doubts........do you have a link to the discussion ?
Like most of the busybodies here, I'm intrigued by drama and shenanigans in the old bike world.

I wonder how long before some out of work frame builder starts counterfeiting stuff like Singer's ?

That's been up for a couple of months here, and I share the doubts........do you have a link to the discussion ?
Like most of the busybodies here, I'm intrigued by drama and shenanigans in the old bike world.

I wonder how long before some out of work frame builder starts counterfeiting stuff like Singer's ?

I would be interested to see if that happens, with the amount of work involved for the return I think it would be a long shot.

Aaron :)

That's been up for a couple of months here, and I share the doubts........do you have a link to the discussion ?
Like most of the busybodies here, I'm intrigued by drama and shenanigans in the old bike world.
I wonder how long before some out of work frame builder starts counterfeiting stuff like Singer's ?

I looked at the original E-bay listing pictures & am wondering...
If it was faked, how did they get the patina on the new ALEX SINGER paint job??
I don't think patina like that is easily faked.

I would be interested to see if that happens, with the amount of work involved for the return I think it would be a long shot.

Aaron :)

I used to feel that way, too, until I went to the Hand Made bike show here last go around.

When I saw the sorts of lug sets that are now available.............
http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/images/P/NOV_LUGS_BBSH_SPC-01.jpghttp://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/images/P/EVR_LUGS_RD_CST_NEW.jpg

And the number of guys now struggling to break into the business,
the whole thing seemed a lot more possible to me than it did before.

If custom frame prices continue to hold where they are, I think you are right.
But if they do not...................

I looked at the original E-bay listing pictures & am wondering...
If it was faked, how did they get the patina on the new ALEX SINGER paint job??
I don't think patina like that is easily faked.

Give it to a fixed gear kid for two weeks ??

It looks like the auction closed at $3100.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120970341095&item=120970341095&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

Here is a full non drive side pic.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/4/2/3/7/6/3/webimg/598773439_o.jpg

This was my listing. After taking pictures, I started to question the quality of the bike. I ended the listing early. It didn't sell. The page of the listing doesn't say "sold," it says "ended by seller."

NOT a Peugeot

How can you tell? What should I look at? do I need to pull the BB to look at the inside of the shell? From my understanding, there would be evidence of a serial number (if it is a Peugeot). It looks an awful lot like a PX 50.

Singer or not, it still looks pretty cool and well equipped.

Got a drive side picture?

So, I have an update. First off, I do buy bikes from eBay very often. I also sell on ebay often. I have been an upstanding member for years. I have no intention of selling misrepresented items. I have been fortunate to hold several vintage bike of the highest quality, but never a Singer. I am genuinely curious about this issue.

I am also interested in providing substantial info to the original seller. So far he has been responsive and seems to understand the issue.

Andrew is also correct, I was busy with family and this is the first chance I have had to view the thread.

Thanks again for any helpful input you may have.

Graham

I'm sorry, but a little part of me jumps for joy when I hear a flipper gets screwed over.

In before all the butthurt flippers start replying.

Flipper? you act as though you've never bought a used car. or a new car.... OR ANYTHING ELSE EVER FROM ANY COMMERCIAL VENUE. Also, What do you mean " get's screwed over?" I'll be fine.

I'm sorry, but a little part of me jumps for joy when I hear a flipper gets screwed over.

In before all the butthurt flippers start replying.


Wow dude, that's pretty hateful. There are a lot of reasons people "flip" bikes. For some it's a way of providing some funds for the hobby/sport/life they love. One of the benefits that some "flippers" provide is they go over a bike and ensure that it is safe before the next person (who may have 0 maintenance skills) rides it.

Joe

It may have been a low end bike not built by, but sold through the Alex Singer store and decaled as such. Or something somebody put Alex Singer decals on a long time ago.

But the bottom line is the original auction has clear photos of a bike that is not even close to a high quality custom built rando bike. And if you are in the business of flipping vintage bikes you should be able to see that.

I don't think you can blame the seller in this case, I do not see anything other than ignorance on both sides. Expensive lesson, but those are the ones that sink in and can have value down the line.

Wow dude, that's pretty hateful. There are a lot of reasons people "flip" bikes. For some it's a way of providing some funds for the hobby/sport/life they love. One of the benefits that some "flippers" provide is they go over a bike and ensure that it is safe before the next person (who may have 0 maintenance skills) rides it.

Joe


Agreed. Thanks, Joe. I am also a bike lover and passionate rider. I would be a collector if I could afford to keep everything. For now, I can just admire and offer an opportunity (which sometimes mean I loose money).

It may have been a low end bike not built by, but sold through the Alex Singer store and decaled as such. Or something somebody put Alex Singer decals on a long time ago.

But the bottom line is the original auction has clear photos of a bike that is not even close to a high quality custom built rando bike. And if you are in the business of flipping vintage bikes you should be able to see that.

I don't think you can blame the seller in this case, I do not see anything other than ignorance on both sides. Expensive lesson, but those are the ones that sink in and can have value down the line.

I understand what you're saying. Honestly, I am just trying to gather information about the frame that I posted in this link. I did not intend to light a fire between collectors and sellers. The bike will be returned and the original seller seems to be responsible enough to realize the item is not what he stated.

First off, this thread is not about flipping. It's about getting an education. Whether it be a learning lesson involving money, the resale of bikes, or whathaveyou.

I encouraged Graham to bring the issue at hand to these forums because I do value the opinions of many on here.

This is NOT an opportunity to point fingers at who does or does not "flip" bikes. Furthermore, flipper-bashing is not welcome. I think that those that talk down on flippers have either been burned in some form or fashion or are jealous of the opportunities that the profession brings.

If anyone on this forum has ever bought or traded an item and resold or traded it for a profit, you are guilty of flipping. Whether the gain is monetary or not makes no difference.