"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - What does a coach offer?

I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on getting a coach to help me get to my full potential and maximize the gains for the amount of work I put into cycling. I have heard all of the pros and cons of paying for a coach and have become a believer so what I'm really interested and haven't been able to get a good answer for is what the average coach should offer in the way of help. I know that they help you build workouts and help you figure out the best strategy to win during races but do they also help you with your nutrition? Should they also be willing to ride with you so much a week? Should they meet with you every so often in person and figure out how your coming along or do they usually just do it by email with you giving them your ride reports? Just wondering what I should be looking for in a good coach and how to know a good one that will fit my needs when I see them. Thanks in advance for the responses.

Join a team, buy Friel's book. (people to ride with and give you advice, and the book can help you structure your training)

I say save your money for entry/travel fees, and food.

But if you really want a coach, can't you just ask them what kind of services they offer? I'd imagine they'd be willing to tell you that for free.

Different coaches have different packages.

I know coaches who ride regularly with their clients. My coach lives a bit too far for that to be pragmatic.

I won a lot of races self coached, though I win a lot more coached. Some are good, and some are bad. So like the cost of their packages it all depends.

Honestly, almost vague enough to be a 41 thread. Get it together. There's a standard over here.

So many questions, so many answers...

First off, figure out what YOU want and then go from there...

IME, a coach drastically shortens your training learning curve by eliminating the extraneous BS one reads on the 'Net and constructing a training plan based on your goals, limitations and time available. Matt's recommendation - get Friel's book and a good team - would work too, but you have to be fortunate in the choice of a team...or a coach, for that matter.

For me, I'd rather not have a coach ride with me - if I've got to do X intervals at Y watts for Z duration, or do a 3-4 hour LSD ride, the last thing I want is someone there with me. If you have a hard time flogging yourself, having the coach there might help, but if you have a hard time flogging yourself, you probably wouldn't be racing. :)

A coach should be able to help you with nutrition and tactics, though IMO the tactics would be better learned in a team environment.

Again speaking for myself, mostly web-based feedback works well. I get my coaching through Carmichael Training Systems (CTS), and it works like this (thumbnail sketch): I get daily emails with my workouts (they're also set up on the Training Peaks website), upload the workout results to Training Peaks, get email feedback on them a couple of times a week, and have a weekly conversation with my coach as well as additional emails I use for asking questions and providing my own feedback. I'm using the least-expensive option they offer; with more money comes more coach/athlete interaction.

It's been worth it to me, in that it has re-adjusted my expectations of myself upwards and made me a stronger cyclist.

unfortunately many most coaches construct their plans from Internet BS

unfortunately many most coaches construct their plans from Internet BSThat's an advantage of using an established company like CTS or Friel's organization - there's an assurance of an at least minimum standard of training and coherence.

people eat frosted flakes as well.

A coach offers you the ability to complain to your training partners that you can go over zone n today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMCkuqL9IcM&feature=player_detailpage#t=25s

Ha lol. "Is this a good place to pee?"

I have had a very positive experience with my coach. Not only do I get daily workouts, I get important feedback. It constantly amazes me what he can see in my files, and things he ask me to work on as a result.

On top of that we communicate on nutrition, and other related topics. He has even pointed me in the direction of a few good deals when I mentioned I was in the market for a specific product.

As he lives on the other side of the country, we don't ride together.

I think if you have the right coach, you will get out of this experience whatever your willing to put in

I know different coaches will offer different things I just want to know what the standard is so that I'll know if I'm getting cheated or not. Is it normal for a coach to ride with you ever week or would that be considered extra? Same with nutrition help? I want to know if these things are pretty normal so when he gives me a price I will know if its a good one or not. I don't want to be that guy who goes to buy a new car and ends up with getting 30% interest and smiling because I think I got a good deal because I didn't know what questions to ask or what the norm is.

Use the rkwaki ride plan for a year with a heart rate monitor to track training stress / gauge efforts. In that year investigate local coaches to see who is the best. If you want to work with that person in 12 months, then do.

I know different coaches will offer different things I just want to know what the standard is so that I'll know if I'm getting cheated or not. Is it normal for a coach to ride with you ever week or would that be considered extra? Same with nutrition help? I want to know if these things are pretty normal so when he gives me a price I will know if its a good one or not. I don't want to be that guy who goes to buy a new car and ends up with getting 30% interest and smiling because I think I got a good deal because I didn't know what questions to ask or what the norm is.

You've provided no specifics yet want something more than it depends. Just to teach guys a lesson in how to ask questions I'm tempted to lock this.

The answer to your question is it depends.

You've provided no specifics yet want something more than it depends. Just to teach guys a lesson in how to ask questions I'm tempted to lock this.

The answer to your question is it depends.
Good point. Well I have been riding for about two years now. I'm on the Texas State Cycling Team and raced for the first time last year. Did ok but not great. We don't have a team coach and most of the time we don't even ride with each other. Mostly just a loose group of people who travel to races together. I mostly just rode my bike as much as possible last year to train. Averaged about 40 miles a ride as hard as I could. I know that there is a better way to do things and have heard intervals etc. but not how many, how often, how many rest days, etc. Also I had a problem with not being able to recover from my rides a few months ago and had to take a couple months off the bike to fix it. I don't want that to happen again. I was kinda obsessed with getting as light as possible and was dieting while riding a ton which caused me to burn out and take the time off the bike. So I also want some help figuring out by nutrition stuff. I would ask the team but all of them are pretty much just college students who eat whatever, ride whenever, etc and see what happens. I want my stuff to be a lot more structured. Is that what you were asking?

Seriously, I would start with the book purchase (Friel's "Training Bible") before you spring for a coach.

He goes over structured training (intervals, rest, etc), and also nutrition, plus a bunch more.

Good point. Well I have been riding for about two years now. I'm on the Texas State Cycling Team and raced for the first time last year. Did ok but not great. We don't have a team coach and most of the time we don't even ride with each other. Mostly just a loose group of people who travel to races together. I mostly just rode my bike as much as possible last year to train. Averaged about 40 miles a ride as hard as I could. I know that there is a better way to do things and have heard intervals etc. but not how many, how often, how many rest days, etc. Also I had a problem with not being able to recover from my rides a few months ago and had to take a couple months off the bike to fix it. I don't want that to happen again. I was kinda obsessed with getting as light as possible and was dieting while riding a ton which caused me to burn out and take the time off the bike. So I also want some help figuring out by nutrition stuff. I would ask the team but all of them are pretty much just college students who eat whatever, ride whenever, etc and see what happens. I want my stuff to be a lot more structured. Is that what you were asking?


Good background I guess

But

Do you want a guy to ride with you?
Have you met/inquires about/know any local coaches?
What are your cost parameters?
Have you done an iota of research or do you really expect us to do it for you?
Packages vary widely. It's an unregulated industry. Name costs. As do hissing points of and regularity of contact.

I have looked up some local coaches and the packages are very variable as are the costs, sometimes for the same package. I'm wondering if that is because one coach is better than the other or is just overcharging etc. I would like someone who rides with me at least once every week just to touch base and see my progress. Also a coach riding with you can point out what your doing that could hinder you that just looking purely at the numbers won't be able to tell why you may be going a bit slower then you should be say on the hills or whatever. I would like to keep the cost to no more than around $200 a week and less if I can get some of the other guys on the team to do it with me. Maybe a group discount? So yes I have done some research I just want to make sure I'm doing the correct research and asking the correct questions.

God bless your good fortune.


I know the guy who should coach you but he can't ride with you and I'm not sure he has room in his schedule.

Good point. Well I have been riding for about two years now. I'm on the Texas State Cycling Team and raced for the first time last year.

That's a start. Category? Goals? What type of races do you want to do well in (i.e. what are your A races)? How many hours do you train a week? A year? 40 miles a ride is useless data.

Pretty much any training plan, even a canned one from some internet site or one you build yourself after reading Friel, will be way better than "ride as hard as you can" every ride. As you found out one of the problems with that is burnout.

Edit: one way to find out who is a good local coach is to ask local racers. Ideally you'd find people who have had the same coach for a year or more. For example one of the local coaches is good but does not believe in rest weeks and has a tendency to overload his riders. But they do well for a while before they crack.

You should get Friel's Training Bible. Even if you get a coach, the concepts and exercises in it can help you figure out what you want your coach to help you with. The chapters on figuring out strengths and weaknesses and setting goals are very useful.

God bless your good fortune.


I know the guy who should coach you but he can't ride with you and I'm not sure he has room in his schedule.

For $200 a week he should make room. And give you a commission.

I would like to keep the cost to no more than around $200 a week...That's a good chunk of change. Most coaching programs I'm aware of are well within that range - shoot, the one I'm on is less than that per month. Still, wanting the coach to ride with you will up the price considerably since his/her time is valuable. If you could get him/her to ride with you one day a week for X dollars, and divide that fee by however many show up for a group, you could get a less expensive (web-based or local) program and still get the occasional eyes-on attention you want.

As Eric indicates above, you need to come up with more specific goals for your performance and figure out which races are most important for you...and you need to do this before you start talking to coaches.

For $200 a week he should make room. And give you a commission.

Sorry I meant a month

My best race is the RR. I suck at the crit as I have no get up and go power to speak of. I'm not bad at the TT but nothing special. I guess what I was looking for was some people posting what they get with their coaches and how much it costs so I have a baseline to say ok that def. way to much money or whatever. I was thinking something like my coach meets with me x number of times a week or month, helps me figure out a good diet, and training program and costs x monthly. That way I would be able to see what the average coach is willing to do and what the average price is for it. Then when I decide exactly what I want I will know ok I want him to meet with him this often and that's a little more than usual so it will probably cost about this much extra. That way I can figure out if I'm asking for to much from them etc. I'll def. look into that book to.

unless your question regarding nutrition is very general, you should be going to a sport nutritionist rather than a coach.

What i want in a coach are the following:

-Understanding of training methods and philosophy. Icing if a coach has general grasp of exercise physiology
-Experience to be able to spot things such as overtraining
-Ability to help me plan a schedule based on the limited time that i have
-Cognizance and patience needed to help me see the forest
-Willingness to provide feedback to my occasional kvetching
-Shrewd tactician

There are a lot of coaches out there, some of whom only took the USAC coaching license exam and call themselves coaches and give you cookie-cutter plans. Those are not the people you want. Ideally, you'd want someone who has few clients so that you can receive the attention you deserve. You also want to work with someone who has raced bikes and have at least some results. This is necessary because a good coach should be able to advise you on how to approach a race based on your strengths and limitations. A coach whose background is solely in triathlon may be able to help you get physiological results but probably can't help you with race tactics.

Sorry I meant a month


cheap bastid

I've had two different coaches, and both have been great experiences. Based on that, I'd worry less about what the 'plans' provide, and more about the coach himself. You want someone who is successful in the disciplines and at the levels you have as your goals. Someone who is 'the racer you want to become': a mentor. So, if you want to really kick ass in the crits, then make sure your coach kicks ass in crits. Ditto for RR, track and TTs. They are all different. Some coaches excel at all of them, which is primo.

Of course, there are people who are great at winning, but less great at coaching, and you need both. You want someone who knows -why- they win, and who can tear apart a data file to figure out what you did wrong in your race and how you can improve. I'm a 50+ Masters, and it became important for me to have a coach who knew how to win in that environment. I work with a 50+ Masters champion, who wins in multiple disciplines, and who has a reputation for helping other guys win as well. He is RacerEx here on the boards. He provides not only workouts, but tips and advice on a wide range of topics, as there is a lot to this sport, and you need to cover all the bases to win.

You are young, not yet sure where you want to go, and so IMO you need someone with great all around experience/expertise and who knows how to mentor/teach.

I don't think Allen Lim has raced much.

+1

There are good coaches who can't race, and there are good racers who can't coach. "Do what works for me" is not coaching.

I don't think Allen Lim has raced much.


+1

There are good coaches who can't race, and there are good racers who can't coach. "Do what works for me" is not coaching.

Lim was a pretty good junior racer. not Vaughters good, but still pretty good. But really, he's good at the physiological stuff while teams have DS's for strategies & such.

I just think that, at the amateur level, you are more likely to find a good coach from amongst the good racers. I'm not saying there aren't examples of good coaches who haven't raced well; I just think the ones who are available may be harder to find.

I just think that, at the amateur level, you are more likely to find a good coach from amongst the good racers. I'm not saying there aren't examples of good coaches who haven't raced well; I just think the ones who are available may be harder to find.

Dunno. In a lot of sports one finds that the top coaches were good, but not stellar, performers in their playing days. I've noticed it in other fields, too - those who are supremely gifted sometimes can't communicate how they do what they do, perhaps because they don't really think about it themselves - they just have it.

Nice if you can find someone with both, I guess, but it may not be necessary to be a top performer to know what it takes to maximise someone's potential, and in that end that is what a coach is for.

Many of us here have coaches. Who, then, has a great coach whom was/is not a stellar performer?

I would think that he or she is a great coach while you are with them and not so much after you leave them...

Had a coach for about year and a bit. It was an online gig and he provided me with daily workouts and I provided him with my WKO files. He analyzed the data and adjusted workout accordingly. He helped with general race tactics, but since he's in California and I'm in Ontario he was not aware of the race scene here or course makeup. There were gains made and he kept me in check, making sure I was not over-reaching.

I stopped the coaching at the beginning of this year, due to my back issue and went it on my own for the rest of this season. I simply followed rkwaki's basic weekly plan and made sure I added in a recovery week when needed. Things took awhile to come back, but finally after about 5 months I finally think I'm getting somewhere. Would a coach have gotten me there faster? Not sure, but it saved me $1000 :)

Still debating the whole coaching thing for the winter, but I know that I really won't need someone until the snow flies. Until then I don't need to pay someone to tell me to ride my bike for 2hrs a night during the week and 4hrs on the weekend...

The problem with just asking other people about coaches is I don't know anyone who has one. Also besides the LBS where would I get a list of local coaches? Maybe I'll just try different coaches for a few months each till I find one I like.

God bless your good fortune.


I know the guy who should coach you but he can't ride with you and I'm not sure he has room in his schedule.

So you berate the OP, coax him to provide more specifics (which he/she does), whip out the mod card and threaten to lock his thread because the questions don't meet your standards, then respond with this?

As someone else who is considering hiring a coach, I thought the OPs questions were decent enough to get some genuinely useful answers from several folks.

The problem with just asking other people about coaches is I don't know anyone who has one. Also besides the LBS where would I get a list of local coaches? Maybe I'll just try different coaches for a few months each till I find one I like.

I'm guessing that Texas is similar to other regions in this regard in that, besides google, you ask around at local races, ask teamates (or a local team's leadership if you're not yet on a team), and also ask around at any tri clubs -- tri folks seem to spend loads of $$ on coaches. To cash in on that, most cycling coaches I've come across coach triathletes at least as much as they do USAC racers. And of course, once you get a list of candidates, ask those candidates for references before dropping any $$.

It seems like your base question is, does personal interaction tend to provide a significant benefit over remote analysis? That's my question, too, and I'm guessing that the best way to gauge that is to keep asking that question in the hopes of finding a bunch of folks who have experienced both. Good luck.

The problem with just asking other people about coaches is I don't know anyone who has one. Also besides the LBS where would I get a list of local coaches? Maybe I'll just try different coaches for a few months each till I find one I like.

I'd say word of mouth is probably the most common method. Ask people who are doing well if they are being coached...

So you berate the OP, coax him to provide more specifics (which he/she does), whip out the mod card and threaten to lock his thread because the questions don't meet your standards, then respond with this?

As someone else who is considering hiring a coach, I thought the OPs questions were decent enough to get some genuinely useful answers from several folks.

yes.

What exactly is wrong with coaxing someone to provide specifics? He's asking "what's normal," but it's an unregulated industry. There is no normal. The cost answer largely depends on how big a name and/or how good a coach is in a given market. If you hire CTS and want Carmichael himself and you want him to ride with you prepare to spend more than some guy who's really a cat 4 who has done little more than read Friel's book. And MOST coaches out there fall into a category similar to this. So without the specifics of something like "I got info from these 3 coaches. Their packages look like a, b, c (and these riders are trained by them) there's really not much room for the thread to go other than "buy Friel's book," "coaching is awesome!!1!" "just ride a lot."

As to my response to his budget and lack of subsequent posting in the thread, I was, shockingly enough, busy. This isn't actually mine, or any of the other moderators jobs. I had things to do with my wife and I wasn't on the board much until this morning.

Frankly, given the budget he quoted my answer was pretty good. I know, and was thinking of a guy who's a damn good coach and was considering making an inquiry for the guy. Even at his adjusted rate of $200/month I know a couple of guys who work online and have produced riders with major results. That, goose, is called actual referrals.

But, if the OP is really looking for someone to provide a more hands on buddy buddy let's ride together thing he's going to have to get off the internet and actually meet some guys in his area.

The problem with just asking other people about coaches is I don't know anyone who has one. Also besides the LBS where would I get a list of local coaches? Maybe I'll just try different coaches for a few months each till I find one I like.

The one thing that seems standard is a start up fee and some sort of commitment with coaches, so going month to month like trying gyms isn't likely to work.

So if you want a local coach you can ride with you're going to need to start asking around friends or shops, err googling the name of your town or nearby areas and 'cycling coach,' or asking guys at races.

Riding your bike with a coach isn't likely to provide the kind of over the top experience you might imagine it to, and it's likely to push the budget out of the range of your cost. You'd may be better off using that money to find someone with a proven track record to send you workouts and have the maximum points of contact you can afford.

I've won a lot or races without a coach. In the old days, even without a structured training plan and a (gasp) power meter. I had a goal this year, though, and a friend who is a coach offered to help me prepare. Somehow I found the money to pay for it. I'm not winning any more races than I used to, but I have never been fitter, never had more power, never had as good endurance, and I'm not taking anything I shouldn't :). A good coach will read your files, run you through some tests, prepare a good training plan for you, analyze your results, and provide meaningful feedback. A great coach gets inside your head. They learn how you think. They know what buttons to push and when. No matter how fastidious you have been about your workouts and periodization in the past, a great coach takes this to the next level. It's like they know how you should feel every day. It's kind of spooky, really, but tremendously helpful. I don't ride with my coach because I can't, but it's like he's the devil and angel on my shoulders. He's always there.

I don't look to my coach for nutrition advice. I spoke with several nutritionists. They got my diet back into shape.

OP, the best way to find a coach is through word of mouth. You will have to go outside the collegiate racing circle. Good luck.

USAC has a list of coaches that have completed their training programs. You can look up some local ones, give them a call and talk with them about what they offer and what you want.

Also, Carmichael Training has coaches across the country. Give them a call.

I have had five coaches over the past five or six years. The first one was a guy who I rode with and considered a friend. He also happened to be a strength and conditioning coach for a Div. 1 college football team and gave me some training plans over the summer before football started. He didn't charge me anything, and he was less a coach as much as he was a guy trying to help out a newer rider.

The second coach cost $100 a month and provided me training plans. He also was a guy whom I rode with. He provided weekly training plans. We exchanged emails weekly. Phone conversations were at a higher price point. He encouraged me to get a power meter, but he charged $150 a month for doing power analysis. He kind of flaked out on me after a few months and said he couldn't coach me anymore. He didn't really give me a reason. It didn't matter too much though, because I moved away about that time.

The third coach I found on USACs site. He seemed good from our conversations, but he continually failed to provide me training plans, didn't return phone calls or emails and after about six months (I bought six months of training at a time because he gave me a discount), I stopped working with him. I think he charged $75 or $100 a month.

The fourth one helped me a lot. He had been on the cycling team I joined. He provided training plans regularly. We rode together occasionally, though on group rides, not coach/trainee rides. We exchanged emails and texts as needed and would talk when we saw each other. He charged $75.

My current coach is a friend, teammate of mine and a Cat 1 racer. He volunteered to coach me, which is why I switched coaches. We talk pretty regularly - on a near daily basis during race season. He provides guidance on nutrition and race tactics. We have done a couple of training rides together (These were some of the most physically demanding rides I have ever done), and we ride a lot of the same group rides. He doesn't charge me anything, though we did take him and his wife out for a nice dinner.

Disclaimer in that I coach a few guys here. Note though that I have had several coaches and am currently working with someone because I like to have the input and a sounding board


I would like someone who rides with me at least once every week just to touch base and see my progress.

I've never had that. Phone and email are fine for communication.


Also a coach riding with you can point out what your doing that could hinder you that just looking purely at the numbers won't be able to tell why you may be going a bit slower then you should be say on the hills or whatever.

Short of fit issues or some anomaly in your pedalling or bike handling skills, there's not much here. The bike handling stuff is not something most coaches are versed to deal with in any case. Unfortunately you're in a very un-progressive area when it comes to training new riders...no clinics and no support for clinics from your Local Association.


I would like to keep the cost to no more than around $200 a week and less if I can get some of the other guys on the team to do it with me. Maybe a group discount.

If you ask a coach to give you a group discount, and they agree, run the other direction because you're going to get cookie cutter programs, not coaching. I limit my client base because each athlete takes at least x amount of time a week to review files and develop an individual schedule. More is not better unless the coach is just looking for income. A plan is not coaching. It's a plan.

I'm not sure why you think there are things you can tell from riding with someone that you can't tell from a power file (other than the stuff listed above). It's been my experience that I can tell a lot more from a power file than from watching someone ride by. You're getting a second by second look at power, pedalling, cadence, speed, HR, gradient, and outside temp. Short of some sci-fi mind meld, that's as good as it gets at the moment.

A USAC or Carmichael "certification" certainly at level one is meaningless. I know of several cases where the "coaches" merely downloaded a $50 Friel program and sent it off to their "clients", or just copied stuff out of Carmichael's book.

You have one good and one very good coach in your area, I don't think they do the ride along thing though.

If you want more info, PM me.

Many of us here have coaches. Who, then, has a great coach whom was/is not a stellar performer?

Tiger Woods, Manny Pacquiao and Roger Federer come to mind. It's very important for the coach to understand the physiology and psychology of the athlete, but it's not necessary for the coach to be an elite athlete themselves. A lot of time, I think the coaches who were involved in a sport for a while, but never reached the absolute top have an advantage. The reason is that if they were actually in the sport for a while they had staying power, probably from doing their homework and becoming students of the game. There are a lot of upper echelon athletes that get to their position strictly through genetics. They often don't last a long time because they don't have the fundamentals correct. Hell, 'fundamental skills' is something that never crossed their mind, they just did it. The superstars of a given sport have the genetics and the underlying fundamentals, but it's almost a guarantee that they won't have the ability to communicate their method.

OP:
Ultimately, I think you're looking for Crash Davis from Bull Durham. Since you're in college, that reference will be completely wasted on you. That's OK.

You also seem to be wanting a mentor and a coach. They do not need to be the same person and probably shouldn't be.

Thanks guys your posts have helped out a lot. I guess I just thought that looking at the numbers wasn't really enough to tell you everything that needed to be done but it seems like that's not true. I just usually ride alone about 95% of the time and so I was worried that maybe my technique isn't great and that could be hurting my performance and I would never know it. I'll start asking some of the Tri guys if they have any info on local coaches. Also thanks for the offer for info Racer Ex I could use all the help I can get.

Tiger Woods, Manny Pacquiao and Roger Federer come to mind.

I haven't seen any of them posting here. I was clearly asking for cycling related examples, from personal experience. And my earlier post also made it clear my opinion related to amateur athletes, for whom the picture is different than for pro's, especially those in entirely different (not even endurance-related) sports.

I'll start asking some of the Tri guys if they have any info on local coaches.

So you are planning to go the tri route?

So you are planning to go the tri route?

Yeah, please don't get a tri coach for road racing. Don't the races tell you what you need to know/work on?

No I'm not gonna go tri but someone recommended that I ask them about coaches as they seem to spend a lot of money on them.

I haven't seen any of them posting here. I was clearly asking for cycling related examples, from personal experience. And my earlier post also made it clear my opinion related to amateur athletes, for whom the picture is different than for pro's, especially those in entirely different (not even endurance-related) sports.

I understand what you were looking for, but my reply wasn't a completely cheeky. I don't think it's necessary for a coach to be a top performing athlete.