Commuting - dealing with snow, ice...

Snowed today in Baltimore. I know 1 1/4" snow is no big deal, nor is 27 degree temps.
But I had a problem today, B town is not known for clearing streets quickly, if at all if it is a back one.
So I FOB'ed (fell off bike), stopping at a 4 way stop, I saw it coming, as the suv in front of me had trouble stopping on what turned out to be ice.

Doing 0 mph I started to clip out left side, and bang bike went right, I went down.
Actually had trouble standing up it was that slippery.

Questions:
Are studded tires any good?
How to deal with tire float in snow.
Braking, today I never used my rear brake at all and it seemed to work, any pointers?
Icing on drive train and rear derailer, anyway to prevent?

But hey it was fun. Did not hurt anything but my pride. Got up and rode home. Car behind me sat and spun.

It takes a lot of experimenting to control the bike in snow. You need to learn away from cars. You steer into the skid just like a car. But, at the same time you need to keep the bike straight up at all times. Not like pavement where you can bank the bike a little and skid. Sometimes you can bank a bike a little in the snow but it's hard to recover fast enough. When just riding, you need to turn the bike carefully without tipping it.

Studded tires are amazing. On an ice rink I have as much traction as on the grass. On flat ice one has very good traction. There is almost never flat ice on the road. Bumpy ice can be ridden over if you still keep the bike straight up. You can ride over places you can't walk over when you get used to studded tires. It's easier with low tire pressure. It still takes practice, an experienced rider to show you is even better.
Unfortunately Lousy studded tires that wear out in a year are $50 each. Ones that don't are close to $100 each... And you have lousy traction on the pavement. And the pavement wears out the studs.

However........you are likely to find ruts in ice going almost the same direction you are going, but not quite. These will toss you down right in front of a car instantly. if the ice is deep and rutted, do not ride in traffic.

You are better not using the front brake, and just using the back if you need to use one. The best is learn to be gentle with both. If you lock the front wheel by accident you fall. If you lock the back you have a chance of recovering. (if you are good)

If you don't have a lot of experience controlling your bike on a slippery surface, you need to learn away from cars. It takes a lot of practice. Don't ride alongside cars if you don't know how. It's as much to learn as it was to learn to ride a bike in the first place.

Icing on the drive train happens when it is below freezing, your bike is below freezing, but the road is wet because the cars keep the road from freezing. It happens all the time. As soon as the water gets off the road and onto your bike, it turns to ice. The best thing is high clearance, motocross (motorcycle) full coverage style fenders. I had to make mine, you really can't buy these.
You still get ice on the braking surface and then you have no brakes until you wear it off. It's not an easy thing to deal with. There is a learning period for all this stuff. Is there an off road path or some place where you can experiment away from cars? You will be falling. Be careful.

Thank you for the advice. I will practice, and probably buy an inexpensives set of studdeds if the lbs can provide.

I agree with everything that 2manybikes said. I would like to add that if you can't afford 2 studded tires, you can do ok with one on the front only. I ride a 16 mile round trip commute in Vermont/upstate NY and fnd the rolling resistance of 2 studded tires to be too much. So, I ride studded up front and a cyclocross tire on the back.

I agree with everything that 2manybikes said. I would like to add that if you can't afford 2 studded tires, you can do ok with one on the front only. I ride a 16 mile round trip commute in Vermont/upstate NY and fnd the rolling resistance of 2 studded tires to be too much. So, I ride studded up front and a cyclocross tire on the back.

This is true too. In fact if it's not too icy and just snowy, you can ride in the snow with knobbies. Studded tires do not make much difference in the snow unless there is ice under the snow.

Good point Mars. No need to spend any more than absolutely needed. If it's super Icy everywhere two studded tires are easier, but not needed for everything.

I am riding on 700 conti top touring wide ones (38mm?), but basically they are a slick. Riding on a hybrid so width is not an issue. Any make recommended?

Go to the Nokian web sight they have a few good options. Then you can get a lot of details. Then google what you like. Also check Bike Nashbar. The cheap ones wear out quickly. The more studs the better. Unfortunatly the Nokian studs are much longer lasting so the tires are priced accordingly (They are tungsten carbide). I wasted money on a pair of $50 tires that wore out in a year. Now I have $85 tires that so far have gone 4 years. The operating cost is a lot less. Oh well..

For studded tires, Nokian are much better than the rest!

Or if you mean knobbies, a lot of the website mail order places have tread pictures. Get really knobby!

Again, 2many and I are on the same page. Buy Nokians if you are going to buy studded tires. They really are the best tire and are amazing on the ice.

Just one more word :)

I find that, with the right equipment, riding my bike in winter is one of my greatest pleasures. You are a better cyclist than you think you are and your body will quickly learn how to ride in those conditions. I especially like riding in freshly fallen snow, or when big fat flakes are floating down. I congratulate you on expanding your cycling horizons this way!

This morning I was riding across a bridge that is closed at about 14mph. I stopped to take a photo and immediately fell on my @ss upon my feet hitting the pavement. Had no idea it was that icy. Nokian Extremes are amazing!

I ride the Nokians on my hybrid. They are great on ice and hard packed snow... Any bike tire studs or not don't do well in loose snow. The Nokians dropped my average speed by 2mph... they are heavy! (This is in addition to the 2mph lost due to the added clothing, etc. of winter riding.)

IMHO Full fenders are a must! They keep the slush off your drive chain and feet!

Studded tires are great, but if you're careful you can ride icy roads without them. Just ride slowly, pedal, brake, and turn very gently. And as others have said, keep the bike upright.

How often do you get icy roads in Baltimore? I'm in the Boston area, and in 3 winters of bike commuting there have been maybe half a dozen days when I would have wanted studs. Given that, I decided they weren't worth the money, or the hassle of switching them on when needed.

Hmmm...it just occurred to me I should buy a (relatively) cheap extra front wheel and put a studded tire on it. Then on those handful of days when it's really icey and I wish I had studs (like today) I could just flip the new wheel on to my (relatively) cheap winter bike in the morning in a minute or two. That must be preferrable to riding all winter on studs even when the roads are dry - or to swapping tires several times on one wheel. I bet a bunch of you people are doing this already. Any thoughts?

I'm going to be making first tracks in fresh powder in an hour. I am bringing the digicam. I'll post picturres later, This is so much fun and so nice, it is hard to explain.

Here's a picture from last year. Who else has winter riding pictures? I'm interested to see them. Maybe we can convert a few more riders. This is from a lake I ride on.

Hmmm...it just occurred to me I should buy a (relatively) cheap extra front wheel and put a studded tire on it. Then on those handful of days when it's really icey and I wish I had studs (like today) I could just flip the new wheel on to my (relatively) cheap winter bike in the morning in a minute or two. That must be preferrable to riding all winter on studs even when the roads are dry - or to swapping tires several times on one wheel. I bet a bunch of you people are doing this already. Any thoughts?

That's an excellent idea. If you start getting hooked you might want to do what I do, and just take the bike with studded tires that day, instead of the one without studs. It's easy in the morining! :o

I should buy a (relatively) cheap extra front wheel and put a studded tire on it.

That’s what I do. I bought the rear as well.
Since I keep my bike in my repair stand at night and all 4 rims are the same, I can swap over to the Nokians in just a few minutes

If just one studded tire in front is better than none on ice, and knobby tires are good in snow, is just one knobby on the front better than none for snow? Or would that make the ride too uneven? Or maybe not helpful because most of the traction is really needed on the rear driving wheel?

If just one studded tire in front is better than none on ice, and knobby tires are good in snow, is just one knobby on the front better than none for snow? Or would that make the ride too uneven? Or maybe not helpful because most of the traction is really needed on the rear driving wheel?

I believe the traction is really needed on the FRONT wheel. If you lose control of your back wheel you might be able to recover, but if you lose control of your front wheel you'll be kissing pavement. I think it's fairly common for winter bikers to have bigger knobs or studs on the front than on the back. I've never noticed anything "uneven" about the ride.

Studded tires are great, but if you're careful you can ride icy roads without them. Just ride slowly, pedal, brake, and turn very gently. And as others have said, keep the bike upright.

How often do you get icy roads in Baltimore? I'm in the Boston area, and in 3 winters of bike commuting there have been maybe half a dozen days when I would have wanted studs. Given that, I decided they weren't worth the money, or the hassle of switching them on when needed.

The main roads get plowed and salted here, not all that quickly, but they do get done. The roads I travel to get to work, three of them never get plowed or salted. The big snow we had last year turned into ice in about a day from motor vehicles, and places that were plowed black ice would pop up.

Questions:
Are studded tires any good?
How to deal with tire float in snow.
Braking, today I never used my rear brake at all and it seemed to work, any pointers?
Icing on drive train and rear derailer, anyway to prevent?

But hey it was fun. Did not hurt anything but my pride. Got up and rode home. Car behind me sat and spun.

The Baltimore-Washington area is known for persistant ice during the winter. Nokians are great. I was able to commute at normal speeds yesterday.

Float? They sink into the snow in this area. If the snow is so compressed that you don't sink, your studs will dig in nicely. What's bad is having to plow through heavy wet snow -- cars are actually better than bikes at this.

Don't use the front brake at all, unless you have studs. Even then, rely on the rear one.

Fenders are essential; single speed or hub gears a great benefit. The only real answer is a full chaincase.

I woundn't want anything but platform pedals for a ride on ice. Lower the seat a bit so you can slide a foot or two, dirt track motorcycle style.

Isn't it fun! It's even more fun with proper equipment -- check out the Icebike list and the Winter Cycling part of this forum.

Paul

JohnBrooking:

My fixed gear is set up that way. More rolling resistance comes from the back wheel, so I ride a slick back there and a cyclocross on the front. That is my favorite winter weapon. In icy conditions, though, I ride my cyclocross bike with a Nokian front tire.

These photos are from today. It was perfect. About 3" fresh powder.
30 degrees at the start about 1:00 pm, 18 degrees at the end about 6:30 pm.
About 20 miles mainly in first and second gear with a little bit of third gear. If anyone wants to see a Nokian extreme 296 (296 studs) I took a close up of a tire.
This is Rhode Island.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dad02915/album?.dir=/89c0&.src=ph&.tok=phLdyZCBkzKrc__c

p.s. If you ride across hard slick glare ice, or very hard bumpy ice fast, with just a studded front tire, you will fall down. Same for very slippery snow with just a front knobby, you just fall. You need traction to push the bike too. One tire only works in some not too slippery conditions. I can introduce you to a couple of injured guys that found out the hard way. Ouch! Conditions vary a lot, Ice goes from rideable with no studs to impossible without two studded tires. We don't get to know what nature is going to give us except where roads are sanded or treated in some way.

Nokian's were not available from LBS, so I ordered a pair of Schwalbe 700 x 38 Snow Studs instead. Anyone seen these. They were cheaper than the Nokians, does not look like they have as many studs.
I will post a report after I have tried them, probably next week sometime as we are expecting more snow this weekend.

Nokian's were not available from LBS, so I ordered a pair of Schwalbe 700 x 38 Snow Studs instead. Anyone seen these. They were cheaper than the Nokians, does not look like they have as many studs.
I will post a report after I have tried them, probably next week sometime as we are expecting more snow this weekend.

This is an on line source for Nokians. I actually bought studs from them too. They know about winter, they are in Alaska, they support the Iiditabike race on the Idtarod trail.This is the tire page.

http://www.allweathersports.com/winter/nokia.html

Does All Westher Sports still exist?

Anyway, right in New England, your best source would be :

http://peterwhitecycles.com (best page of information on it)
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/

I ride with Innovas and replace the studs as needed with a little tool.
Now that I've studied it a little more, I think Nokkians would serve me better, but, I got my money's worth.
Next year, Nokkians.

Presently, with the Innovas, I have no difficulties on any surfaces except frozen rutted slush.
Those ruts just grab my front wheel.
The other night I had to stop, get off the bike and walk back to the intersection and take a different route.
I think the Nokkians with their studded sides would have climbed the ruts and handled it.

A fellow worker rides in the same weather as I do with an aggressive touring tire in front and a Cyclocross tire in the rear.
I don't think he has as easy a time with it as I do, but he manages.

I could do it without studs, but I already find it stressful enough with studs.
Next year, Nokkians.

With DIY studded tires I can replace the studs when they wear out. I use self-drilling screws (9 cents each or box of 100 for $5.89 or something like that). This is my first season w/studded tires so I haven't had to replace any yet.

Another thing is I believe fixed-gear is an absolute must when riding in icy and snowy conditions. At first I though this was crazy but after doing it I have almost total control on the ice and I don't even need brakes (especially rim brakes that don't seem to work anyway), using back-pedaling to control my speed. I wouldn't ride in wintery conditions without it.

Having said that, if I built up a purpose-built winter bike and cost was no object I would use a disc brake at least on the front.

Smurfy wrote:

"...if I built up a purpose-built winter bike and cost was no object I would use a disc brake at least on the front."

Why?
I'd like to know more about disc brakes.

Smurfy wrote:

"...if I built up a purpose-built winter bike and cost was no object I would use a disc brake at least on the front."

Why?
I'd like to know more about disc brakes.

From riding in that 3" powder for 15 - 20 miles a couple of days ago I was reminded that the powder comes around on the tires and collects around the front brake. Eventually you can not even pull the brake lever it becomes solid. You can clear it if you're going on the road or away from deep snow. But if you keep going in the snow it comes right back. It does not clear up like you could do with a wet rim by squeezing the brakes. It will eventually clear, maybe five minutes of riding, then it's right back instantly.

Fortunaly in 3" of powder you can't go very fast for very long it's too much work and when you stop pedaling you stop quickly. Also on my bike the back brake keeps working. The front wheel clears the way for the back wheel to run cleaner.

The IDITABIKE deep snow bike racers don't usually have front brakes. It's just not worth it. Maybe discs would work. In fact there are single speeds used by the winners, get that rear derailleur out of the way in the snow! Maybe snow would fall down from the tire above on the disc, I don't know. You don't use the brakes much in deep snow. It does not matter unless you are on a steep downhill. Even then you can start by keeping your speed down with the back brake. For the type of snow riding I do and the terrain I go on in the snow I don't need to do anything about it. I am better off to open the brakes by taking the straddle cable off and reduce the buildup that slows me down.

If I was buying a new bike I would definitely try discs to see how it is. It would be nice to have a front brake for the deep snow. I say it try it. It gets the cantilever parts out of the way of ice buildup.

BUT if you are building a budget snow bike for mainly level terrain around town, you could leave the front brake off and save some weight. I could take my front brake off but I go on the road or hard ice where I can clear the brake and go faster, then the brake is handy. Plus, I may want to use this bike for something else some day.

Discs don't suffer from degraded braking when they get wet, muddy, icey, etc.

Discs don't suffer from degraded braking when they get wet, muddy, icey, etc.

Do you have any other thoughts, about discs in snow below freezing? Have you done it first hand? I'm wondering if maybe cable operated discs could freeze the cable and hydraulic would be a must.
I'm thinking the cables could freeze at the cable. ?

You're going to have an interesting ride in the morning.

I'll be honest, I have no first-hand experience. I 2nd-hand that makes me real jealous, but I can't speak to below freezing one way or the other.

True, it seems like the cables would be just as susceptible to freezing though I wonder about hydraulics. And I was just out in this ridiculous nonsense (fixed gear--stopping wasn't the issue). AWESOME!!

We're gonna be out at about 1pm tomorrow and it looks like maybe a handful of us. Should be most excellent.

I have Avid mec disc brakes, and for the first time ever I got them to squeal. I was using very light braking on the front and they started to make a high pitched whistle, sort of like what happens when you run a wet finger around the rim of a crystal glass, only more metallic.
Anyone have this happen when the brakes are slightly wet, and braking lightly?

I'll be honest, I have no first-hand experience. I 2nd-hand that makes me real jealous, but I can't speak to below freezing one way or the other.

True, it seems like the cables would be just as susceptible to freezing though I wonder about hydraulics. And I was just out in this ridiculous nonsense (fixed gear--stopping wasn't the issue). AWESOME!!

We're gonna be out at about 1pm tomorrow and it looks like maybe a handful of us. Should be most excellent.

Tommorrow........bring the digital camera?

It's in the stars. Hopefully we'll manage to find some mayhem, I'm optimistic.

It's in the stars. Hopefully we'll manage to find some mayhem, I'm optimistic.

You just inspired me to do the same, thanks !!

Here are a few from a quick dash out and about this morning.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=861439&postcount=29

A few more from around the neighborhood at http://www.zweknu.org/blog/index.rhtml?s=p@685&c=T

Fantastic pics! Reminds me of the great Blizzard of '78! Those were fun times. We got about 4" here.

So far this winter, I've found that Tioga Bloodhounds (XC) have been amazing, secure rides (traction, sureknobbyness, etc.) when commuting on rutted, icy slush, slushy snow, ice.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/tires/tioga_mong_bhound.html

Any other Bloodhound fans out there?

However, when today's perfect blizzard is over, we'll have weeks of rutted, icy biking in Boston. So I'm thinking about trying a Bloodhound up front and an Innova (700c x 35mm) studded tire with replaceable steel studs on the rear wheel for increased traction.
http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&SKU=TR5263

Or I might just switch completely to Innovas. Any experience with Innovas? Do you have to be a blacksmith to keep them shod? Or will they degrade gracefully when they start losing studs when the friction of bare streets (and potholes) takes over?

:roflmao: :roflmao:

So far this winter, I've found that Tioga Bloodhounds (XC) have been amazing, secure rides (traction, sureknobbyness, etc.) when commuting on rutted, icy slush, slushy snow, ice.
http://www.bikepro.com/products/tires/tioga_mong_bhound.html

Any other Bloodhound fans out there?

However, when today's perfect blizzard is over, we'll have weeks of rutted, icy biking in Boston. So I'm thinking about trying a Bloodhound up front and an Innova (700c x 35mm) studded tire with replaceable steel studs on the rear wheel for increased traction.
http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&SKU=TR5263

Or I might just switch completely to Innovas. Any experience with Innovas? Do you have to be a blacksmith to keep them shod? Or will they degrade gracefully when they start losing studs when the friction of bare streets (and potholes) takes over?

:roflmao: :roflmao:

The Nokians will last 4 or 5 times longer than the Innovas, but they are only twice as much or less to buy. This page has a post where they lasted ten rides.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=861693#post861693

If you use only one studded tire and the ice is very hard and bumpy, or very hard and glare ice, you will just fall. If the one studded tire is on the back the crash will be worse. Sorry.

2manybikes (VT or NH?)- Thanks for the warning! Also enjoyed your slide show! Makes me think of moving to Burlington or Durham ;-)

You gave me a good idea. I too have too many bikes, so one of them (Marin Eldridge Grade) that has been hibernating -because it's steel and road salt intolerant and is slightly "more disposable" than a Jamis Exile- will be fitted shortly with Nokian Extreme 296's or 300's.

(If I carry some extra Guinness in my cages, and spray the Columbus Thron frame before and after every commute, I may still have a tough MTB next summer ;-) Seriously, maybe ammonia and H2O (NOT in a Guinness can) is a better idea.

For a very comprehensive link on winter biking see http://www.silentsports.net/don_t_put_your_bike_away_for_t.html.

:roflmao: :roflmao:

2manybikes (VT or NH?)- Thanks for the warning! Also enjoyed your slide show! Makes me think of moving to Burlington or Durham ;-)

You gave me a good idea. I too have too many bikes, so one of them (Marin Eldridge Grade) that has been hibernating -because it's steel and road salt intolerant- will be fitted shortly with Nokian Extreme 296's. (If I carry some extra Guinness in my cages, and spray the Columbus Thron frame before and after every commute, I may still have a tough MTB next summer ;-)

:roflmao: :roflmao:

Rhode Island actually. Although Moving to VT or NH is a good Idea. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Beer IN the cages and spray the bike with water, right? Not beer in the cages and spray the bike with beer. :)

One trick for snowy riding that I've noticed these last two days (for a freewheel bike, anyway): When the surface is a little more packed or steady, keep pedaling, but try to coast through those loose parts where car tires have truend up the snow. It's in there that all the squirrelly fishtailing action seems to happen.

Heh, that's funny. My strategy is exactly the opposite. Where it's all hard pack, I'll kind of roll over it. I prefer the slushy churned up crap because there's something to get a grip on and there's a chance I'll hit bottom and have some pavement under the wheels too.

But I'm riding a fixed mountain bike with nice deep offroad tread, so that's probably going to have a pretty big effect on handling.

Now it's plowed down here so I have nice hard pack and ice to ride on. Perfect for studded tires. Nice clear day so I took some pictures. Wish I rode yesterday in the storm. :(

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dad02915/album?.dir=/7e86&.src=ph&.tok=phktEbCBFMNfWXJZ

I'll revive this and see if anyone reads this far.

Any advice not above for riding without studs on mountain bike tires?

tire says 40-60psi on the sidewall so I let air out down to 40 (should I go below that, they're 29x2.1" 700x52c?). My apt complex has a bit of snow over the ice layer and it wasn't bad on my test as long as I took it slow. I lowered my saddle a bit and I'm wearing ice cleats on my boots to help catch myself. I'm taking secondary streets til I feel more comfortable riding next to the cagers in heavy traffic. I'll be mindful to stay upright and turn slowly. Of course I'll be sure to wear my helmet.

Any more advice is welcome (and encouraged)

Cheers,
Jeff

I skipped reading some of the last posts, but...

I rode Nokians on Thursday's commute (first day: I put them on Weds. night). They were awesome!!!

I plan on riding them all winter unless there is a major warming that clears the roads. I just have to be careful if I put a foot down: no studs on the shoes... yet... :D

It does not say where you are from though. Maybe you don't need them for a day or two.

In this area I'd just be resigned to being very careful and maybe crashing when it's icy. Ice and snow are pretty much a non-issue for our area, anyway. Nokian makes some nice studded bike tires, but I wouldn't want to ride on them the rest of the winter, and I'm not one for changing the tire just because it's snowy one day. In the winter I switch from a slick to a mtn bike tire and leave it at that.

If you're willing to change your tires everytime it's snowy or icy, then sure, get some studded tires. If you don't they aren't going to last very long on pavement.

Are studded tires any good?

You NEED studded tires in the winter - at least up front. No, it won't be icy every single day. However, as you've already found out, there will be ice out there and your bike tire will find it every time. It's simply not worth the risk of getting hurt. If you ride in the winter and don't run studs, you will taste the pavement. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".

If you just get another front wheel (cheap compared to medical bills - no work, etc), you can slap the studded tire on it, and simply pop it on and off when needed. Trust me, this will save you from a world of pain ... don't ask me how I know. :o

.... Brad

You NEED studded tires in the winter - at least up front. No, it won't be icy every single day. However, as you've already found out, there will be ice out there and your bike tire will find it every time. It's simply not worth the risk of getting hurt. If you ride in the winter and don't run studs, you will taste the pavement. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".

If you just get another front wheel (cheap compared to medical bills - no work, etc), you can slap the studded tire on it, and simply pop it on and off when needed. Trust me, this will save you from a world of pain ... don't ask me how I know. :o

.... Brad

In the Baltimore DC area, it's rarely icy and snow is even more rare. I'm kind of a safety ninny, but studded tires just don't make sense here, imho. I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find a commuter around here with a set.