Classic & Vintage - Please help me ID my British(?) mystery

Firstly, let me appologize for my first post being a "help me identify xx" tread.
Secondly, this forum has been imensly valuable for me in determing what this bike isn't. Unfortunatly I'm still without clear answers, so now it was about time to man up and register.

If this post is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it.

I have bought this:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8297/7882830702_f5b5d43470_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882830702/)
mystery_brg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882830702/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

This is my design consept, and not what the bike looks like. Its currently a vivid shade of poison green. Not an original color, and it has most likely been repainted 2-3 times during its lifespan.

What I know (mostly thanks to this forum) is:

Haden Lugs
137 x 24t (British tread?)
Campagnolo 1010 dropouts with eyelets
dropout spacing is 122mm as of now.
Cinelli stem
Cinelli Giro d'Italia handlebars
27.2mm seatpost (not sure about the .2mm since I haven't got the correct tools)
NO rivet holes for Raleigh badge
Bottom Bracket Braze-on cable guide
Frame number stamped 40 under 3 coats of paint



Curenlty it is set up with complete dura ace gears and brakes with varying production dates from 1976 to 1979. Probably not original. SR royal seatpost produced 1978. Campagnolo hubs on Mavic wheels.

Pictures of key design features:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7107/7882563630_0fa25868aa_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882563630/)
stem (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882563630/) by
Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8292/7882565208_7f06fe96d2_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565208/)
handlebar (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565208/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7110/7882563856_eaf60bc579_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882563856/)
rearderailleur (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882563856/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8301/7882564358_0fd881c8bf_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882564358/)
lugWcrown (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882564358/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8447/7882564682_97bbc2e6cc_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882564682/)
lugseatstaysseatpost (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882564682/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8438/7882565540_99698e65dc_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565540/)
crank (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565540/) by
Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8295/7882565806_c334bf0921_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565806/)
bottleholder (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882565806/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8296/7882566114_3ca008954c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882566114/)
bb (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7882566114/) by
Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7883181198_4744e2bb96_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7883181198/)
rearbrakebracket (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22616521@N07/7883181198/) by Manny the Martian (http://www.flickr.com/people/22616521@N07/), on Flickr

Sorry for the black and white, but this gave the best contrast for identification. Hopefully some of you can help shed som light on this bikes origin.

well, it isn't a Raleigh so the lack of a set of 3 headbadge holes doesn't matter...most distinctive thing I see is the stay-end treatment on the dropouts: that's beyond the usual "scalloped". I don't know who did that sort of thing.
I'm surprised if you can't find the size of the seatpost (27.2 or whatever) stamped right on that seatpost.
Don't know what it might be, but it's sure nice...and yes, probably British.

Don't know what it might be, but it's sure nice

It's very nice!

Damn, I've seen this way of putting the dropouts in before, but I can't remember where... :(

Have you already tried classicrendezvous.com? If you can't find it in the english bicycles, also have a look in the french section (though I would agree that it's english).

well, it isn't a Raleigh so the lack of a set of 3 headbadge holes doesn't matter...most distinctive thing I see is the stay-end treatment on the dropouts: that's beyond the usual "scalloped". I don't know who did that sort of thing.
I'm surprised if you can't find the size of the seatpost (27.2 or whatever) stamped right on that seatpost.
Don't know what it might be, but it's sure nice...and yes, probably British.

Thanks. Not sure how I missed that. Think I was looking to hard for something to verify the age with. It is stamped with 27.0


Damn, I've seen this way of putting the dropouts in before, but I can't remember where... :(


Have you already tried classicrendezvous.com? If you can't find it in the english bicycles, also have a look in the french section (though I would agree that it's english).

classicrendezvous.com, left me with more questions than answers. No English frames seemed to match up. However some Gitanes looked somewhat correct, although probably just 93% identical...

The gitanes have identical rear brake brackets / bars(?) and similar, but not identical, design on the stay-ends / fork-ends. Gitanes are more open C's, or < shaped, while the ones on my bike are almost full circle. It's even more obvoius on the fork where theres just a slight gap in the circle.

All in all, more confused then I was I guess.:lol:

Further information if this helps anyone.

68mm BB
Weight is aproximetly 10 - 11kg on a 54 cm frame.

Veeery nice. The filing and windows on the lugs, the dropout joints, the bottle cage and brake bridge treatment all point to craftsmanship.

Smells of the '70s to me. Can't really add anything further, sorry!

that
is
one
very
sweet
frame!
its a keeper!:thumb:

most distinctive thing I see is the stay-end treatment on the dropouts: that's beyond the usual "scalloped". I don't know who did that sort of thing.

Yes, that's quite distinctive. It looks like a standard domed stay end with the dome filed off.

the lugs on your frame look familar,exactly the same as my lovely stolen bike that was a armstrong 531 frame.+hope this helps

It's not a Gitane.
Perhaps something from a very small-output builder, and "40" is the 40th frame he built.
I'm wondering if the forkblades are the classic Reynolds dimensions or the "Continental" dimension...or even if they are not Reynolds but Columbus.
Measure near the forkcrown: long axis and short axis of the oval blade ODs.
Check inside the base of the crown up the steerer (use flashlight) and see if there are any ridges.
The 27.0 seatpost is a bit odd: might be a post just a little too small, but if correct the seat tube could be Columbus SP or Tange or Ishiwata...maybe.

It's not a Gitane.
Perhaps something from a very small-output builder, and "40" is the 40th frame he built.
I'm wondering if the forkblades are the classic Reynolds dimensions or the "Continental" dimension...or even if they are not Reynolds but Columbus.
Measure near the forkcrown: long axis and short axis of the oval blade ODs.
Check inside the base of the crown up the steerer (use flashlight) and see if there are any ridges.
The 27.0 seatpost is a bit odd: might be a post just a little too small, but if correct the seat tube could be Columbus SP or Tange or Ishiwata...maybe.

Thanks for making me get out and buy a a caliper. It has been on my todo list for a while now:)

Measurements:

Fork:

Long axis - 27,5mm
Short axis - 21mm
Circumference - 64mm


Not sure what you mean by ridges. How visible are they? It's not easy to see anything up there since its quite gritty and the fastening bolt for the front brake is in the way.

Took some more measurements while I was at it. Not sure if it helps but here are the tube diameters:


Head tube - 32mm
Top tube - 26mm
Down tube - 29mm
Seat tube - 29mm (27mm inside the lug)
BB - 41mm and 68mm wide


Finally got around to get the correct weight of the bike.
It is a wooping 9780grams. Not sure if that helps.

As you're getting rid of the paint layers, maybe you can do it with some chemicals to see whether the original paint (and maybe badges) are still underneath?

that looks like an SR ROYAL seatpost- it will say the size-take it out and tell us.

I bet it says 27.2=reynolds 531 tubing

27 seems uncommon for such a fine piece of craftsmanship!


if you take the paint away with stripper-
my seat tube is marked reynolds xx/xx I forgot the numbers

if you look very carefuly at this pictures of my fork you might just see the text "O" on the inside leg next to the fork crown ,there is text on both fork blades
"reynolds 531"

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/rivieraproject/bicycles/IMG_6594.jpg

Thanks for making me get out and buy a a caliper. It has been on my todo list for a while now:)

Measurements:

Fork:

Long axis - 27,5mm
Short axis - 21mm
Circumference - 64mm


Not sure what you mean by ridges. How visible are they? It's not easy to see anything up there since its quite gritty and the fastening bolt for the front brake is in the way.

Took some more measurements while I was at it. Not sure if it helps but here are the tube diameters:


Head tube - 32mm
Top tube - 26mm
Down tube - 29mm
Seat tube - 29mm (27mm inside the lug)
BB - 41mm and 68mm wide


Finally got around to get the correct weight of the bike.
It is a wooping 9780grams. Not sure if that helps.
Seems like the blades are "Continental", since Reynolds "Imperial" dimensions are 29 x 16.
The ridges are small and shallow: with Columbus there are 5 and they spiral, often you'll see the raised cross-section on the cut-end of the steerer, but if they are there a strong light should show you...one of the Japanese brands used 6 ridges, can't recall whether it was Tange or Ishiwata.
What we can tell for nearly certain is the tubing is not metric, since those 3 main dimensions would be 26 and 28, but you may be getting a mis-read due to the thick paint: S/B 25.4mm and 28.6mm.

that looks like an SR ROYAL seatpost- it will say the size-take it out and tell us.

I bet it says 27.2=reynolds 531 tubing

27 seems uncommon for such a fine piece of craftsmanship!

I'm afraid the size alone won't help, as Reynolds 531 varied in different times and countries and was also 26,4, 26,6, 26,8... For example, I've got 2 Peugeot PX10, both from 1977. While one is 26,4, the other is 26,6.

As you're getting rid of the paint layers, maybe you can do it with some chemicals to see whether the original paint (and maybe badges) are still underneath?

I was thinking I'd might chemical strip the frame my self, and not send it away. It will be interesting to see what appears. (if it works to strip one layer at a time that is)

Half of the goal of finding its origin, is to decide its future color. I am thinking chrome forks with race color of the country of origin.


that looks like an SR ROYAL seatpost- it will say the size-take it out and tell us.

I bet it says 27.2=reynolds 531 tubing

27 seems uncommon for such a fine piece of craftsmanship!


if you take the paint away with stripper-
my seat tube is marked reynolds xx/xx I forgot the numbers

if you look very carefuly at this pictures of my fork you might just see the text "O" on the inside leg next to the fork crown ,there is text on both fork blades
"reynolds 531"


It is marked with 27.0


Seems like the blades are "Continental", since Reynolds "Imperial" dimensions are 29 x 16.
The ridges are small and shallow: with Columbus there are 5 and they spiral, often you'll see the raised cross-section on the cut-end of the steerer, but if they are there a strong light should show you...one of the Japanese brands used 6 ridges, can't recall whether it was Tange or Ishiwata.
What we can tell for nearly certain is the tubing is not metric, since those 3 main dimensions would be 26 and 28, but you may be getting a mis-read due to the thick paint: S/B 25.4mm and 28.6mm.

You might be correct in regards to paint thickness. When I started removing the paint on the BB, I had one thick layer of green, on layer of pink, one grey /silver and primer. Not suprised if this is close to 1 mm in thickness when both sides of the tube is taken into account.

Thought I was close to identifying it, but now it seems even more mysterious ...

I might have to get the fork off so I can inspect it closer. Perhaps it will give me some clues.

27,0" can be Reynolds 531, and might indicate it is rather British than French.

I think you should strip the paint yourself by all means. If you use chemicals and you're lucky (and you may well be in that the bike has been painted over several times), the original paint is still there. Maybe also the decals have not been removed prior to painting...

Check inside the base of the crown up the steerer (use flashlight) and see if there are any ridges.


Not sure what you mean by ridges. How visible are they?

Like this:

http://www.osw2.dhs.org/~john/columbus-steertube1.jpg