Bicycle Mechanics - (trying) to Remove fixed cup

I've been fixing bikes for a few year now. I recently picked an old Peugeot UO5 few weks ago. The bottom bracket was a little loose. No problem let's fix it with a new cartridge BB. First, the thread to remove the right crank was stripped. No sweat I'll remove the bolt and ride around the block until the crank fall off. After over 20 km it was still there. I descide to cut the soft aluminium crank. With stripped thread it was trash anyways. Not I can't get the fix cup out. I have the HCW-4 and the J.A. STEIN FCC-2 to hold the tool in place. But the park tool is 36mm and the fix cup is 35 mm. I tried the park tool but it was not working. Looks like VAR tools have some special tool for a 35mm fixed cup. I also use the Sheldon Brown DIY tool ( http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html ) but no success.

I want to know if you tried the Shedon Brown DIY tool? Does is really matter if I'm tighten the bolt or the nut? Maybe I just need to "insist" more with the Sheldon Brown tool?

If the fixed cup has 35mm flats I suspect that it's a French threaded BB. This would mean the cup unthreads in a counter clockwise rotation, the opposite of the Lh threads of most shells you'll see. The test is to take a English LH cup and try to thread it into the LH side of the shell and try the Peugeot's LH cup in a known Eng shell. If they all interchange with out isssues then i'm wrong. If the Eng. cup rattles loose in the Peugeot shell and the peugeot's cup won't go in the Eng shell then I'm right. Peugeot changed to Eng threading standards in the late 1970s, not all at once but over a couple of years and models. I've even seen some with a Eng headset but French Bb shell. Andy.

The Stein tool and Park wrench combo is far superior to the cheapo work 10% of the time SB method. Use your foot to press gainst the Park tool, As andrew said it's 'counterclockwise'.

Size 10-1/2 leverage:

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/DSC02747.jpg

Sheldon had a Kludge , big bolt and nut and split washers , stack up to be long enough
to have bolt head out the left side , nut out the right side , then you grab the cup tightly
when you tighten the bolt and nut, and unscrew the cup even if you don't have a fixed cup wrench.

Years ago I got a Big steel tool that does that.. 1 big machinedsteel piece with a flanged nut.
I added a big washer
(1/4" thk, made for prestressed concrete rod tightening amongst other uses )
So, it holds the fixed cup wrench too.

Sheldon had a Kludge , big bolt and nut and split washers , stack up to be long enough
to have bolt head out the left side , nut out the right side , then you grab the cup tightly
when you tighten the bolt and nut, and unscrew the cup even if you don't have a fixed cup wrench.

I give that mothod a 10% success rate... Sometimes cheap tools and cheap techniques = cheap results

The Stein tool and Park wrench combo is far superior to the cheapo work 10% of the time SB method. Use your foot to press gainst the Park tool, As andrew said it's 'counterclockwise'.

Size 10-1/2 leverage:

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr314/jimr2527/DSC02747.jpg

I have a similar method (using a BB tool and various length bolts to match & 1 washer), but use a 4 lb. hammer. One "stout" swing. It either goes or you buy a new wrench.

Noooo not French BB, my worst nightmare. I fighted for years with the BB of Mercier I fixed it with a Velo-Orange Cartridge BB. I think I saw near the BB Shell a label saying it's a canadian made (I might be wrong, getting mix up with all bike I own) I'll try Andrew method to figure if it's French or not. When I tried the stein tool and the park wrench the 36mm wrench kinda grind the over the BB Shell.
I also squirt some product to remove the rust that the hardware guy told me it was better that wd-40 for that. Can't remember the name something like rustallgone or something like that.

thanks for the info I'll keep up updated on the status

I use REAL penetrating oil with multiple application and 1/2 hour (or so) wait periods in between.
Tap with a wrench to try to "ring it", which is supposed to help the PO "vibrate" into the nooks & crannies.

I give that mothod a 10% success rate... Sometimes cheap tools and cheap techniques = cheap results

peugeot UO5 were cheap bikes even new.. not to put the kibosh on tool sales ,
to stimulate the economy..

You can't clamp the cup flats in a bench vise and rotate the frame?

status update:

There'S no update... same point as yesterday fixed Cup still seized.

Peugeot has English BB. I was able to srew a adjustable cup in the non drive side. The cup was stamped 1.37X24 Made in England. I was able to screw the thing all the way in. after that I was 100% sure about the left hand thread of the fixed cup. Use the J.A. Stein tool to hold my park tool in place and a size 10 1/2 for leverage and the tool rotate 1/4 turn. But the cup did not move. result: the cup and the tool share similar (or opposit) marks.

Retried the SB tool but nothing happened. I just have a 1' cheater bar (that's not really cheating) But between 2 gulp of beer I was thinking with an impact tool like Car shop use. That will shake the seizeness out of the cup, right?

I also working on another seized fixed cup on Torpedo. This time the cup fladge is larger and can't fit in the park tool. I'm sure it's italian BB the shell is 70 and I screw a adjustable cup in the non drive side with a 36X24 stamped on the cup.

@fietsbob: I know it was low entry level in the boom bike era, but it's more for the bike mechanic experience point of view that I'm giving it a go. It it was just to ride that bike I would leave the dang cup in place and pack it up with grease and bearing and that all *end of story* (and about the kibosh I have to google what it mean. That all right I have a wife that is kiboshing me real good. that's why i'm going the klunky way ( another google search)

@Jyl: I'm at home I don,t have a bench and a vise. If needs be I can take it to my bike coop but now that the cup is a little damage I don't think the bench vise will be any good.

also I tried to heat up the frame with a heat gun not a torch. I'll torch it in last resort. From your experience is a heat gun will expand the metal enought to change anything. At our bike coop we used to love torching anything seizedm but now new rules forbid any smoke or fire in the building (It's an old wood building after all)

Peugeot has English BB. I was able to srew a adjustable cup in the non drive side. The cup was stamped 1.37X24 Made in England. I was able to screw the thing all the way in. after that I was 100% sure about the left hand thread of the fixed cup.

That means nothing. French and British threads are so close that if one's over/under size you'll be able to thread a British cup into a French frame. I installed a British Shimano cartridge BB into a French frame awhile back.

That means nothing. French and British threads are so close that if one's over/under size you'll be able to thread a British cup into a French frame. I installed a British Shimano cartridge BB into a French frame awhile back.

Yes. DavidPP, can you post a picture of this troublesome fixed cup? And tell us what brand crank/BB is installed?

I thought it will go for a few thread and at one point it will stop. As @Andy mentioned the adjustable cup was not rattling loose in the peugeot. I did not try the Peugeot adjustable cup in another bike frame (I kinda lost sight of it) I thnik I saved somewhere the Old Mercier cup I'll try this tonight.

Bike mechanic is so entertaining. Everytime you think you know what you are dealing with, you soon realise you are wrong. I love it.

And The Penetrating oil I use is names releaseall http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Hardware/Automotive/Lube-Products/Multi-purpose/Multi-purpose/340g-Multi-Purpose-Releaseall-Lubricant/_/N-ntjj4/R-I8640189

You can't clamp the cup flats in a bench vise and rotate the frame?

+1 This is what I do. It works well and seems more stable and sedate. Using the frame as a torque arm gives you a lot more leverage. Turning the right way helps too.

-G

A vise can work well, but not everyone has a good enough quality, solidly mounted vise. Many cheaper ones will just open up, so are not much better than an adjustable wrench.

Sheldon Brown's giant bolt & nut works great. Only mod I would do is to place a star lock washer on both sides of the cup.

Most common problem is applying torque to the cup. Even with a stand, it's difficult to keep the frame from spinning. I find clamping the downtube as close to the BB as possibIe in V-blocks in a vise works really well. Then using a 1000 lb*ft impact wrench will work every single time . On one particularly difficult frame, it stripped the threads out of the BB-shell. The cup came right out with a shiny spiral of stripped threads on top!


BTW - removing the crank bolt only works on the left crankarm due to torque transfer between the two sides. There is very little torque on the right side.

And PB Blaster or Kroil are the only spray-on stuff that actually works.

@Jyl: I'm at home I don,t have a bench and a vise. If needs be I can take it to my bike coop but now that the cup is a little damage I don't think the bench vise will be any good.

Since you have been working on bikes for over a year now, a large bench vise is very handy, to remove a pesky freewheel, etc. I use mine all the time. Needs to be attached to a sturdy bench, or you will end up walking the vise across the room..

Also invest in some Kroil. WD40 is good for cleaning stuff, but that is about it.

Never assume anything. Even if you are positive what the bike originally came with, you will see some idiotic/crazy mods. I tend to see more of that on cheaper bikes, where former owners grabbed whatever they had handy, and used it.

One way to confirm what threading it is is to look inside the BB shell. There's usually some threads on the BB past the edge of the cup. If you see some threads, note the direction to determine which way to turn things to loosen it. That's how I checked Peugeot fixed cup threading back in the 80's. I also used a nice big vise with good sharp clamping top edges to remove the cups off bikes. Never failed on me as long as I'm careful not to let the flats to slip off the vise. I usually used my younger brother to put some of his weight down centered to the BB spindle by standing on a stool and holding the down tube and the stays as I turned the frames. Once the threads cracks loose, I finished by using a large adjustable wrench we had.

Chombi

Hey guys,

I triple checked and it's (99% sure ) english threading on the peugeot. I found the cup that was from my Mercier with a nervar spindle. The threads are same direction. I tried on the peugeot not able to screw it at best it felt like I can thread it a few threads and it stopped. I tried the same cup on another standard frame nothing. On a torpedo frame (italian bb shell) nothing. Tried 3 randow adjustable cup and it was ok. So the doubt about the BB is cleard

IT'S AN ENGLISH BB

I'm going to play with sheldon brown tool a bit tonight. I have an hold frame and I want to see if I can take the fixed cup with SB tool. I know a guy that has a "portable" impact wrench, (battery). I'm going to borrow it simetime early next week.

In the mean time If I want to torch. I have a propane torch for copper pipe would this get the cup warm enought. Should I torch it with SB tool in place Or without the tool. I think if I leave the tool it will get soft and when I work hard on it it will snap of deform. What you opinion on this.

I know a good vise will be a real asset in my tool collection but I have no real bench to fix it too.

When I've torched a cup, I've also bubbled the paint on the shell. It was not so nice for the frame.

I think you should take the frame to a bike shop that has the proper tool / vise. It'll cost $10-20, you won't bugger up the shell or your fingers.

I tried the SB method on a fixed cup that hadn't ever been removed (on a ca 1990 Nishiki) and all it did was mash the lock washers.

Took it to a shop with the proper tools and about 5 min and $10 later had the cup in the palm of my hand. So that's my recommendation.

If you don't have workable vise, you may want to look into Park Tool HCW-2 (35mm crank tool). Of course they have been discontinued but there are some out there http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PARK-35mm-SCHWINN-HEAD-CRANK-WRENCH-NOS-/300769170999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46073d5637

I've been fixing bikes for a few year now. I recently picked an old Peugeot UO5 few weks ago. The bottom bracket was a little loose. No problem let's fix it with a new cartridge BB.
I think the problem started with your initial assessment and action plan. Why did you not leave the fixed cup in and untouched (your quoted Sheldon Brown article also told you to do so). You still could have used the original right side crank, (I disagree with the assessment that "it was trash anyways because of stripped removal threads"). Just adjusting the non drive side cup a little (often possible without left side crank removal)would most likely have done it. You would have been done in five minutes and having things working with original parts at no cost !?:)

You would have been done in five minutes and having thinks working with original parts at no cost !?:)

And where is all the fun with fixing bike if it can be done in five minute?

You Saturnhr are a wise man. You re so true. I should have re-assess the situation and done deal. Anyhow here some pictures.



270371270372270373

The flats on the fixed cup look okay, nice and thick, plenty to grab on to.

The various tools you show look like they weren't beefy or high-quality enough, too soft, too loose. I'm finding that Park tools are only so-so in the hardness of the steel. Compare to a quality tool that you'd use for automotive work (Snap-On, even Craftsman), the Park stuff looks mediocre.

Anyway, you could use penetrating oil, heat, buy a much bigger and higher-quality adjustable wrench, plus a 3 foot iron pipe for a cheater, etc - or buy a nice big bench vise and bolt it to something solid - or, as said, bring $10 to the bike shop and be done with it. The last will be lots cheaper as well as lots faster.

Whatever you do, don't bugger up the flats on the cup (unlikely, the cup is probably harder steel than your tools), or break a finger when a tool slips (more likely).

Tenacity-what a fine thing.

So clean all the grease out from inside the frame and look at the threads, if you look closely enough you should be able to tell if it French (right hand) or British (left hand). I still think your turning it the wrong way.

when using the sheldon method i learned to not use lock washers, all they do is spread. i use another nut as a spacer. i use a 5/8 grade 8 fine pitch for more clamping power. also have a shop owned kingsbridge tool. i like the nut and bolt because i can put my impact gun on it

when using the sheldon method i learned to not use lock washers, all they do is spread. i use another nut as a spacer. i use a 5/8 grade 8 fine pitch for more clamping power. also have a shop owned kingsbridge tool. i like the nut and bolt because i can put my impact gun on it

As the guy who invented and produced the Kingsbridge tool the so called SB method is based on, I can tell you that it was intentional impact wrenches cannot be used. The tool has too much inertia, and when I was prototyping it I found that impact wrenches didn't help get cups out, but made the tool super tight, and sometimes broke the screw.

The key to the SB method (should be called the FB method) method is to use steady torque and an absolute minimum of washers (which can cause slippage). One single spacer on the inside is OK, more than that degrades performance. Done right, using one wrench to turn the bolt in the direction you want the cup to go, and a second to resist so the tool tightens. As it tightens you ease off on the resistance torque delivering a net torque to the cup.

On super tight cups, put the bolt in a vise, and turn the frame, but keep track of the directions involved, so you can apply the resistance torque in the right direction

As the guy who invented and produced the Kingsbridge tool the so called SB method is based on, I can tell you that it was intentional impact wrenches cannot be used. The tool has too much inertia, and when I was prototyping it I found that impact wrenches didn't help get cups out, but made the tool super tight, and sometimes broke the screw.

The key to the SB method (should be called the FB method) method is to use steady torque and an absolute minimum of washers (which can cause slippage). One single spacer on the inside is OK, more than that degrades performance. Done right, using one wrench to turn the bolt in the direction you want the cup to go, and a second to resist so the tool tightens. As it tightens you ease off on the resistance torque delivering a net torque to the cup.

On super tight cups, put the bolt in a vise, and turn the frame, but keep track of the directions involved, so you can apply the resistance torque in the right direction

thanks for the info. i just like the impact gun because it makes a bunch of noise and it's fun. i do have proper tools and access to a big wilton vise in the shop. got a big 18in adjustable for the kingsbridge. breaker bars and long ratchets for the nut and bolt method

FB- My hat's off to you. I had no idea that you're past is so deep. I'll read your posts with more interest now. Andy.

I thank FB weekly for his excellent Chain-L chain lube. Though, never to his face. Thank you, FB.

Closing the case.

Last Tuesday I brought the frames (peugeot and Torpedo) to the bike coop. I manage to remove the fixed cup of the torpedo using the vise. This one did not resist too much. I had no succes this way with the peugeot fixed cup. I gave up on this one I simply repack the bottom bracket with new grease and and new bearing. The inside of the cup was not damange from the hard work done on it. The new crank spins just fine.

Now looking back I should have continue working on it just to see what will be needed to remove that fixed cup. But the important is that I have a working bike and that was the first objectif. thanks all for your help

As the guy who invented and produced the Kingsbridge tool the so called SB method is based on, I can tell you that it was intentional impact wrenches cannot be used. The tool has too much inertia, and when I was prototyping it I found that impact wrenches didn't help get cups out, but made the tool super tight, and sometimes broke the screw.

The key to the SB method (should be called the FB method) method is to use steady torque and an absolute minimum of washers (which can cause slippage). One single spacer on the inside is OK, more than that degrades performance. Done right, using one wrench to turn the bolt in the direction you want the cup to go, and a second to resist so the tool tightens. As it tightens you ease off on the resistance torque delivering a net torque to the cup.

On super tight cups, put the bolt in a vise, and turn the frame, but keep track of the directions involved, so you can apply the resistance torque in the right direction


FWIW the shop I worked at had the Kingsbridge tool and it was OK.... but it wasn't my 'go to' tool for the most stubborn of fixed cups. It's main fault was occasioanal slippage on the cup. The best day of my fixed cup removal career was when my boss ordered the Stein fixed cup tool, the one that holds a Park/Campy style tool firmly in place. A kudos for you for developing the tool....one of by gripes about SB is that alot of things he's credited for were simply 'cheap knock-offs' of someone elses ideas. Heck, there're things on his pages that were hijacked directly from some of my posts on this forum.

My current 'go to' fixed cup tool is the holy grail of fixed cup tools, the VAR 30.

FWIW the shop I worked at had the Kingsbridge tool and it was OK.... but it wasn't my 'go to' tool for the most stubborn of fixed cups. It's main fault was occasioanal slippage on the cup. The best day of my fixed cup removal career was when my boss ordered the Stein fixed cup tool, the one that holds a Park/Campy style tool firmly in place. A kudos for you for developing the tool....one of by gripes about SB is that alot of things he's credited for were simply 'cheap knock-offs' of someone elses ideas. Heck, there're things on his pages that were hijacked directly from some of my posts on this forum.

My current 'go to' fixed cup tool is the holy grail of fixed cup tools, the VAR 30.

Different tools for different purposes. The Kingsbridge tool wasn't intended for the most common 36mm (TV set) right cups. Most shops had tools for that including the Var, Campy and Cobra tools, which clamped on a machined block, and in the case of campy had massive flats that could go in a vise. My tool was made for all those oddball, and/or 3 notch cups for which there was no specific tool to do the job. As such it was a last resort for when normal methods failed, and there are still many in use some 20 years after I last produced them.

As for Sheldon Brown. I knew him in his lifetime, and though many now may credit him with stuff, he never (to my knowledge) took credit for anything that wasn't his. His achievement was to build on something started by Howard Sutherland in the early seventies, to gather, confirm and collate all the arcane data, of an industry which had few standards, and put them in one place so they were available when needed. Sutherland published this in a big book which had to be upated every few years.

Sheldon's major contribution wasn't his superior bike knowledge, but his early recognization of the power of the internet, and the realization that a database could be developed and made available to all. Towards that end he was constantly on the phone talking to knowledgeable pople in the industry, gathering technical data, product specs and their expertise on a variety of subjects. Everyone knew how their contributions would be used, and we were all OK with it. I was very saddened to see him pass away, and besides the personal loss, thought all his work would end up an unplowed field.

To the credit of the folks at Harris, they've done a wonderful job keeping his opus alive and relevant. I don't think Sheldon would have wanted to be immortalized any other way.