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A 26 year old man from my home town was sentenced as a dangerous offender yesterday, for intentionally running down a cyclist. Finally, in a country that metes out ridiculously short sentences, justice is served. Read all about it here:
http://www.canada.com/windsor/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=f1a24a31-8e93-400d-a098-11cd3d73b689
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18 prior convictions, half for violent crime at 26 y/o. Yep, menace to society.
18 prior convictions, half for violent crime at 26 y/o. Yep, menace to society.
Too bad they don't have three strikes and you are out. He would have been at Rikers while he was still 18.
*sigh*
roughstuff
Too bad they don't have three strikes and you are out. He would have been at Rikers while he was still 18.
*sigh*
roughstuff
That's what happens when you coddle criminals like liberal Canada.
That guy is a waste of food and oxygen. He shouldn't be allowed to eat meat.
No animal should have to die to feed that scum.
that's a crazy story. what a waste of a human, from conception to present. his childhood sounds like a nightmare. i wonder if his mother was ever punished for neglect?
......liberal Canada.
If that was meant as an insult it failed.
Glad to see that this guy got what was coming to him. He definitely was a waste of life.
If that was meant as an insult it failed.
Glad to see that this guy got what was coming to him. He definitely was a waste of life.
why, are you "canada"?
The article says he's up for parole every two years.
I bet he's out in 8.
Too bad they don't have three strikes and you are out. He would have been at Rikers while he was still 18.
*sigh*
roughstuff
The dangerous offender status is Canada's version of the 'three strikes law'. Unfortunately, you need to be extremely dangerous to fall under it's provisions, not just a repeat offender.
that's a crazy story. what a waste of a human, from conception to present. his childhood sounds like a nightmare. i wonder if his mother was ever punished for neglect?
I doubt it. The Crown probably apprehended the kid and he grew up as a ward of the Crown, in foster care or group homes.
why, are you "canada"?
The article says he's up for parole every two years.
I bet he's out in 8.
It wouldn't surprise me. Canada's justice system is seriously screwed up. Revolving door justice at it's worst.
I find several of these comments disturbing. I don't condone this fellow's history of horrible crimes, but I try to respect that flicker of humanity in every human life. He is neither an animal nor a waste, but a pathetic, tragic, sick young man--but a human being, nonetheless.
The product of abuse (as the article noted), he undoubtedly left a trail of hurt and pain among his vistims and their families which no punishment is likely to ameliorate. The best that Canadian society--and ours would prove no better equipped--could do is protect itself, as it did, through his sentence as a dangerous offender.
Nah, I'm not Canada but have no problem being liberal with some of my opinions. Liberal is not an insult. I think you meant to use the word lenient. I have no arguement with that word.
He rated a "38" in a psychiatric exam administered by the courts, in comparison Paul Bernardo Canada's most talked about serial killer rated only a "37"
This fellow rates close enough to the "theoretical true psycopath" that there is no treatment available for reform. He won't be paroled or set free again ever as there is no legal or medical pretext for showing improvement short of a full frontal lobotomy plus maybe a few other cuts in his gray matter.
In Canadas largest city I don't fear for my safety at all, and the recidivism rate is pretty damn good next to the States. I'll wouldn't trade our bicycle theft and other petty crimes for armed robbery and assault any day.
Hell these people get upset when a city of 2.9 million surpasses 60 murders a year! A YEAR!
btw his mother gave him over to the authorities (childrens aid) at age 6 because she was ill-equipped to deal with his violent behavior. That doesn't sound like neglect to me. His dad was killed in a high speed chase by police when he was one, if you ask me this guy was genetically screwed from the get go. Now that it's recognized that he is and will always remain a threat those bi annual paroe board hearings are nothing more than his rights being protected by denying him parole based on his continued, uncorrectable condition.
Nah, I'm not Canada but have no problem being liberal with some of my opinions. Liberal is not an insult. I think you meant to use the word lenient. I have no arguement with that word.
Yeah, OK, when a murderer gets out because of "leniency" and kills again, we won't admit this isn't a way to deal with criminals.
Sorry if we sound a little mean but the piece of dog dropping got a better deal than the old man that he ran down did.
Yeah, OK, when a murderer gets out because of "leniency" and kills again, we won't admit this isn't a way to deal with criminals.
I'm assuming that since you labelled Canada as liberal, you would refer to the US as conservative? Is so, I think that your conservative America also has similar problems with their legal system.
There is no sense in throwing the word liberal around as if it's an insult. Most anyone would agree that using wide-sweeping generalizations like that only reduces something like this to an argument of bumper sticker slogans. I'm keen enough to know that everything is more complex than just "liberal" or "conservative" and I'm sure that you are too. The guy will get his due punishment and it appears doubtful that he'll ever be released or would you rather have him executed?
I'm assuming that since you labelled Canada as liberal, you would refer to the US as conservative? Is so, I think that your conservative America also has similar problems with their legal system.
There is no sense in throwing the word liberal around as if it's an insult. Most anyone would agree that using wide-sweeping generalizations like that only reduces something like this to an argument of bumper sticker slogans. I'm keen enough to know that everything is more complex than just "liberal" or "conservative" and I'm sure that you are too. The guy will get his due punishment and it appears doubtful that he'll ever be released or would you rather have him executed?
He ran down an innocent person and laughed about it. I could care less if he gets executed.
But do you want him to get executed? Could you sentence him to death? Could you pull the switch?
That was the case on July 1, 2000, when Campbell aimed the stolen car he was driving at Frank Groves, a 65-year-old retiree out on his routine morning bike ride. Later, he and one of his joyride passengers laughed as they watched television news coverage of the fatal hit-and-run.
This is sick, I mean the decency to even laugh about a matter of running down someone with a stolen car. Like the article says with 18 acts of violence prior to this incident he deserves to stay behind bars for good. Looking at his child history I don't blame the guy being the way he is, but yet he could have gotten help instead of becoming like his mothers "domestic partners."
But do you want him to get executed? Could you sentence him to death? Could you pull the switch?
Yes I could do it. He deserves execution. He's trash.
Amazing... I'm assuming you had a better upbringing than he did so maybe it isn't the upbringing that would allow people to treat life so lightheartedly. You got to the same point he did without the benefit of a deprived childhood. I bet you'd laugh while you did it too and while you watched it later on tv.
But do you want him to get executed? Could you sentence him to death? Could you pull the switch?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I'd do it with a clean conscience, also. I don't want him on this planet when my children grow up. I don't want him on this planet when I am a 65 yr old retired man out for a bike ride.
He was given multiple chances to show a "flicker of humanity" (quoting another post from this thread), but willfully turned away from doing so.
Put him down just like a rabid dog. Killing a dog is a sad, terrible thing to do. A dog raised by a good owner is a wonderful thing; loyal, loving, protective. But when it becomes a danger to everyone around it, it's time to put it down. One can argue that the analogy is flawed; a person is not an animal. I say that in this context, the analogy is true.
I beleive that every person is a divine creation, and is born with unlimited potential (that's as far as I'll go with my religious views), but there comes a point where mercy has to "pay up" to justice. In my opinion, he's way beyond that point.
My heart goes out to the widow of that cyclist, and every other victim who's life he shattered (multiple assaults, robberies, burglaries, and now murders).
Let me pose a question to those who say he shouldn't be executed. How would you feel if he had so casually murdered your spouse? Or your child? Or your parent? And you knew that this was not the first time he had murdered someone.
He rated a "38" in a psychiatric exam administered by the courts, in comparison Paul Bernardo Canada's most talked about serial killer rated only a "37"
This fellow rates close enough to the "theoretical true psycopath" that there is no treatment available for reform. He won't be paroled or set free again ever as there is no legal or medical pretext for showing improvement short of a full frontal lobotomy plus maybe a few other cuts in his gray matter.
In Canadas largest city I don't fear for my safety at all, and the recidivism rate is pretty damn good next to the States. I'll wouldn't trade our bicycle theft and other petty crimes for armed robbery and assault any day.
Hell these people get upset when a city of 2.9 million surpasses 60 murders a year! A YEAR!
btw his mother gave him over to the authorities (childrens aid) at age 6 because she was ill-equipped to deal with his violent behavior. That doesn't sound like neglect to me. His dad was killed in a high speed chase by police when he was one, if you ask me this guy was genetically screwed from the get go. Now that it's recognized that he is and will always remain a threat those bi annual paroe board hearings are nothing more than his rights being protected by denying him parole based on his continued, uncorrectable condition.
He scored 1 point higher then Bernardo eh? (shivers)
While there is a part of me that can objectively look at his past and see how his childhood may have ultimately influenced his life, there is another part of me that can look at his life and see that he could have made different choices. We all have the opprotunity to make those choices, good or bad. He made bad ones. Too many as far as I'm concerned. Let him rot, I hope he never gets out! :mad:
I don't know how I would feel, and neither do you. What I do know is that bad laws are made on the foundations of strong feelings. if my spouse were killed maybe I would think that the whole city should be destroyed, or the whole country. a person who is grieving is no more equipped to know right from wrong than the wretched individual under discussion.
In my opinion, it is a mark of shame the the US is the only developed country IN THE WORLD who still has the death penalty. We have the highest per capita nuber of people behind bars. And yet we STILL have thehighest murder rate. By far. Don't think our system is working.
How about this scenario, FXjohn and Lance Work: you are asked to execute someone. You do so and laugh while watching the tape. Then, DNA evidence shows that he was innocent? Or had a curable mental illness?
I honestly have never made a final decision on the death sentence. I can see both sides to the issue and I'll admit that I was playing devil's advocate in my posts above more for my benefit. I'm not certain whether I think this guy should be executed or not but I do know that he definitely should be locked away. I do not, however, wish to be able to deal out death so easily without knowing all the facts as a couple of you have posted.
I'd be just as happy as the guy from texas to pull the trigger on the guy if I were given the chance.
If you contribute to society, that's good.
If you don't, that's fine.
If you leech, eh.
If you choose to do harm, are informed of the consequences, choose to do it again, and again, and show that you have no other purpose other than to harm society, then too bad.
For this guy, I can only recommend being cast away from society (but he'll probably come back) or just be removed completely. Society's better off. I have a high degree of guilt towards harming anyone but really couldn't care less about people like this guy.
You are asked to execute someone. You do so and laugh while watching the tape. Then, DNA evidence shows that he was innocent? Or had a curable mental illness?
What an odd odd sad coincidence and utter failure of the justice and science system if somehow someone gets mistakenly convicted 18-20 times in a row... How very odd.
Fool me once.. shame on you. Fool me 18-20 times, shame on you.
He wasn't convicted of murder 18-20 times. We don't string people up anymore for cattle rustlin'. Or do we? Do you think slvoid, that we should execute people who are repeat offenders in petty thefts or comon assaults?
No talk of symapthy for the victim, or consequences for killing him really.
Everyone is worried about the killer.
How odd.
I don't know how I would feel, and neither do you. What I do know is that bad laws are made on the foundations of strong feelings. if my spouse were killed maybe I would think that the whole city should be destroyed, or the whole country. a person who is grieving is no more equipped to know right from wrong than the wretched individual under discussion.
In my opinion, it is a mark of shame the the US is the only developed country IN THE WORLD who still has the death penalty. We have the highest per capita nuber of people behind bars. And yet we STILL have thehighest murder rate. By far. Don't think our system is working.
How about this scenario, FXjohn and Lance Work: you are asked to execute someone. You do so and laugh while watching the tape. Then, DNA evidence shows that he was innocent? Or had a curable mental illness?
If you'll re-read my posts, I never insinuated that I would take pleasure in his death. I simply answered yes to all three of Soda's questions. If I was on the jury for his trial of murdering the cyclist, and I was convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" that he committed murder, yes I would find him guilty. And if during the punishment phase of the trial, I was shown evidence that he had a history of violent crime, and evidence of his lack of remorse, then yes, I would vote for the death penalty.
If I was an employee of the State of Texas, and it was my responsibilty to carry out the lawful sentence of death by injection, then yes, I could do it.
I answered those questions as three separate questions. No one in the US has the power of judge, jury , and executioner. The punishment is decided on by the jury, within guidelines given by the judge. I beleive in some rare cases, the judge can overrule a jury's sentencing. We'll have to ask a lawyer about that, though. The sentence is carried out by the state; not the judge, and not the jury.
Let me tell you that I have served on a jury for a case dealing with violent crime; I have also stood before a judge while being accused of a criminal act. There is nothing funny or comical about either situation.
I would not laugh as someone's life is taken. my heart would ache for that person who made so many wrong decisions. My heart would ache for those people who had to suffer that person's wrong decisions. And if evidence came to light that exonerated someone previously executed, or that they had a curable mental illness, I would grieve that they were wrongly executed; that they never had a chance to be cleared of their accusation, or to be healed.
You say it is a mark of shame that the US still executes people. I say it is neither a mark of shame, nor a badge of honor. It is just a fact that this country allows each state to choose whether it considers the death penalty a lawful punishment. It is a fact that the State of Texas recognizes that in some cases, when a person convicted of murder has shown a willful, blatant disregard for human life, capital punishment is a possible sentence.
I don't believe that everyone that kills someone should die. That is why there are so many variations of murder/manslaughter that someone can be charged with. The charge dictates the range of punishment. For someone to be charged with First Degree Murder (the only charge for which the death penalty is a possible sentence) (Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer, so I may have some of this wrong. Please feel free to correct me) the government is convinced that the accused has shown blatant disregard for human life.
I honestly have never made a final decision on the death sentence. I can see both sides to the issue and I'll admit that I was playing devil's advocate in my posts above more for my benefit. I'm not certain whether I think this guy should be executed or not but I do know that he definitely should be locked away. I do not, however, wish to be able to deal out death so easily without knowing all the facts as a couple of you have posted.
:) Hah! My wife plays Devil's Advocate just to watch me get my dander up!
I was operating under the assumption (and we all know what happens when we assume :D ) when I answered "yes," that I would have been on the jury, and that I would have been presented with all the facts.
No talk of symapthy for the victim, or consequences for killing him really.
Everyone is worried about the killer.
How odd.
Probably because the article itself focuses on the killer.
You make an interesting point though. I wonder if this is what we should be doing as a society then. Focus all our energy on helping victims and playing a more postive role in thier lives instead of focusing on the negative aspect and the those responsible. Its not saying that we turn a blind eye to criminals. I just wonder if by focusing attention on the negative we draw more attention to it and perhaps encourage it in some way. What would have happened to this guy if as a child and a victim he would have received more postive attention and received more help before it was too late? Would he have become a different person?
Kind of like negative re-inforcement. A child behaves badly, throws a tantrum because it wants something/attention, parent finally gives in and gives the child what it wants.
I'm either on to something or totally off my rocker here...
Lance Work:
You are right, that comment was directed more at FX, who said he would laugh in that circumstance. Thank you for the thoughtful reply in spite of the misunderstanding.
You mention that no one person makes all the decisions or carries out all the actions in a capital murder case. Fine, but the question I raised parses the situation down to the bare bones. You are clearly a thoughtful man/woman and I would guess that it would trouble you very much to find that you had wrongfully executed the wrong person or a person with a curable mental illness. Yet, we have all heard stories of people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit. there is also a known relationship between the death penalty being handed out and the color of the perpetrator and the victim. If you are black, whatever you do, don't kill a white woman!
A look at the statistics shows that capital punishment does no good other than to satisfy public bloodlust and the need for revenge. It does not deter crime and it dones not save money (look at the endless legal proceedings around these events). How can you support that?
FXjohn:
You didn't answer my question. Doesn't seem fair, since I answered yours.
As for my perspective, that is no surprise because I only care about myself and winning arguments on the internet. Oh, and seeing cold blooded killers running loose and teaching evolution. :)
This thread has been about crime and punishment from the start. Your posts, until the last one, have been about that as well.
Lance Work:
You are right, that comment was directed more at FX, who said he would laugh in that circumstance. Thank you for the thoughtful reply in spite of the misunderstanding.
You mention that no one person makes all the decisions or carries out all the actions in a capital murder case. Fine, but the question I raised parses the situation down to the bare bones. You are clearly a thoughtful man/woman and I would guess that it would trouble you very much to find that you had wrongfully executed the wrong person or a person with a curable mental illness. Yet, we have all heard stories of people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit. there is also a known relationship between the death penalty being handed out and the color of the perpetrator and the victim. If you are black, whatever you do, don't kill a white woman!
A look at the statistics shows that capital punishment does no good other than to satisfy public bloodlust and the need for revenge. It does not deter crime and it dones not save money (look at the endless legal proceedings around these events). How can you support that?
You're absolutely right about the disparity in race and capital punishment. In my mind it is a mark of shame that it still happens in the US. By "it" I include all forms of racism.
I'll be the first to admit that there are some cultures that make me uncomfortable, but I know that the people in that culture are not "better" or "worse" than me.
I love Texas, and am proud to be a native Texan. However it shames me that things like this still happen here.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2992665
At least they caught the guy. Unfortunately,he will probably not be punished to the extent he deserves.
I'm always interested to know the source of statistics. I'm not an actuary, but I do know that by manipulating the pool of subjects, questions and responses, a good statistician can support just about any position on anything. :eek:
That's what I learned while failing Stats three times in college! (I got an A the 4th time! :rolleyes: )
the ****er needs to be cained to death.
Merton, Canada did away with corporal punishment in 1972 (although it is still legal to spank your kids) It was used for both minor and more serious offences. See this for more info if you're interested: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/rights/50yrs/50yrs-05_e.shtml. Canada used the noose for capital cases. Check this link out for more info: http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php "You are to be taken from this place and hanged by the neck until you are dead." The utilmate deterrent. No chance of recidivism.
FXjohn:
You didn't answer my question. Doesn't seem fair, since I answered yours.
As for my perspective, that is no surprise because I only care about myself and winning arguments on the internet. Oh, and seeing cold blooded killers running loose and teaching evolution. :)
This thread has been about crime and punishment from the start. Your posts, until the last one, have been about that as well.
What is your question to me?
You had mentioned that you would gladly execute the criminal in this thread and that you would laugh as you watched the tape of you doing so. I then asked you how you would feel if later DNA evidence showed he was innocent or had a curable mental disease.
Lance Work:
I agree with you regarding the shame of racism. But I feel that you can't seperate the first issue with the second. In this country, you are ore at risk of being executed if you are 1) poor, 2) black, or 3) male. If there is a lack of justice according to these variables then the practice itself is inequitable and unjust.
Regarding statistics. Statistics can be made to show anything if the audience is unfamiliar with them. I'm not an actuary either, but I do use statistical analysis in my job. I personally think that stats should be a high school subject, because they are playing a larger and larger role in how people make decisions. You have taken some stats, I bet you look with a more critical and informed eye at news reports of stats than the average citizen.
He wasn't convicted of murder 18-20 times. We don't string people up anymore for cattle rustlin'. Or do we? Do you think slvoid, that we should execute people who are repeat offenders in petty thefts or comon assaults?
Absolutely. Perhaps you missed this in the article: Nine of those convictions were for violent crimes. While incarcerated, he was convicted of arson and assault, uttering death threats and possession of a weapon. During his dangerous offender hearing, he assaulted another prisoner in the courthouse.
Arson and assult, might seem petty to you, maybe once or twice. Not 9 times.
You had mentioned that you would gladly execute the criminal in this thread and that you would laugh as you watched the tape of you doing so. I then asked you how you would feel if later DNA evidence showed he was innocent or had a curable mental disease.
What the hell? The killer was the one who laughed about killing the victim, read it again.
Now tell me why this guy would be laughing ot bragging about doing it?
Your heart is going out to the wrong kind of person, believe me.
But you still haven't answered my question, FXjohn. You said that you would happily execute this guy, and I assume someone else like him. How would you feel if it turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, or the result of a curable mental illness?
slvoid:
I have noticed from your previous posts, on many topics, that you are a guy/gal with strong opinions on things. I am not quite so sure of myself as you are, I guess. i certainly would not support the death penalty for someone who had committed petty crimes or violent crimes only. I understand your position, though, thanks for answering my question about it.
But you still haven't answered my question, FXjohn. You said that you would happily execute this guy, and I assume someone else like him. How would you feel if it turned out to be a case of mistaken identity, or the result of a curable mental illness?
I was referring to an iron clad case, not something shaky, like one eyewitness.
THE GUY SAID HE DID IT. HE WAS DRIVING, AND THERE WAS A PASSENGER
FXjohn, fair enough, but I imagine that in cases where life sentences are handed down or the death penalty is given, the jury/judge felt it was an ironclad case as well.
I won't pursue this any further with you. You are obviously a very bright guy and I am sure you would be very disturbed if you inadvertently executed an innocent person. I am not defending this criminal or his actions. I am questioning the perception that capital punishment is an appropriate response to people like him. I doubt, if capital punishment were available in Canada, that he would have acted any differently than he did. And there is always a chance that the state will kill a person who was innocent.
By the way FXjohn, I have read your posts on other threads. I haven't agreed with a single thing that you have said on any of them. But I am glad that we have a smart guy with your philosophical position on the forums. Hope you keep up with the energetic posting.
FXjohn, fair enough, but I imagine that in cases where life sentences are handed down or the death penalty is given, the jury/judge felt it was an ironclad case as well.
I won't pursue this any further with you. You are obviously a very bright guy and I am sure you would be very disturbed if you inadvertently executed an innocent person. I am not defending this criminal or his actions. I am questioning the perception that capital punishment is an appropriate response to people like him. I doubt, if capital punishment were available in Canada, that he would have acted any differently than he did. And there is always a chance that the state will kill a person who was innocent.
By the way FXjohn, I have read your posts on other threads. I haven't agreed with a single thing that you have said on any of them. But I am glad that we have a smart guy with your philosophical position on the forums. Hope you keep up with the energetic posting.
You must not have read all of my posts because i am against the death penalty. But i hate this guy for what he did, and he deserves a harsher sentance, and not parole every 2 years. he deserves life.
Mars, many of my posts are just stuff I post to get a rise out of people. If you read my bike related or nutrition/training posts i am sure you might find something you agree with. This is just a bike forum... :)
slvoid:
I have noticed from your previous posts, on many topics, that you are a guy/gal with strong opinions on things. I am not quite so sure of myself as you are, I guess. i certainly would not support the death penalty for someone who had committed petty crimes or violent crimes only. I understand your position, though, thanks for answering my question about it.
I'm not trigger happy and with any other case, I certain would not be able to do it. But with a clear case like this where the probability of error is near 0%, where the person has admitted to murder and see no remorse, where they have a long and storied history of having absolutely no regard for the welfare of others and will actively seek to cause harm, I really can't see any loss to society if we got rid of this threat.
It would take a lot for me to do it and the opinion of a jury or judge is certainly not enough. But with enough sound scientific evidence, I'm all up for it.
Believe me, if someone was running around town and ran over every single friend and family member of yours and left them for dead (but they lived), you'd agree they really have no place in society either.
slvoid:
Hang tough.
You're not alone.
Thanks guys. That actually turned into a nice conversation. I'm serious. Too many times I've seen these things turn bad and I'm happy to see that we're all mature enough to not resort to that type of posting. I was a bit afraid to start something for that reason but I'm glad it turned out as well as it did.
Bah, take the ol death penalty debate away from the cycling thread!
As far as fair punishment for this guy, he got it. He won't be getting out and he won't be in a psych ward he gets maximum security prison. He gets to suffer in his enviroment and in his twisted mind everyday for the rest of his life. Woohoo for both sides!
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