Touring - Choosing a Bike for a South American Tour: Part Deux

Hi again.

Thanks for all the help so far. My questions are becoming more and more specific, and so I thought I'd clarify myself with a new OP since the other thread was getting very confusing between what I was currently asking, and what I had already asked.

Here's where I'm at so far:

#1. The bike HAS to be a steel frame. Even if other materials could, perhaps, fill the niche, Steel is just the safe bet.

#2. I need to use 26" wheels so I can replace them if necessary.


I have taken a look at the Surly Troll and the Silkroad, and decided both were overkill for my UL Touring ideal. My body, gear, food, and water comes in at less than 200lbs. When you have to lift the bike onto your shoulders and hike a few miles, 5-10lbs makes a big difference, and the right frame will be just as reliable with less weight.

Salsa (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi_ss) looks like a great bet. In a couple of days, I'll be calling them to see about an El Mariachi-style frame with a 26" wheelset. My LBS is also a Salsa dealer, which is very convenient for me.

271820


Here's what I still need help understanding, if anyone has some experience. This is the only question I've got left: Buying wheels: do they need to be handbuilt? What types of wheels are specifically designed for bikepacking and what are they made of?


Thanks again for all the help. Please PM me if you have anything to suggest on safety, routes, or anything else in regards to the trip. Since I have lots of time, I haven't yet begun my research on the area beyond expected terrain, so it has no place in this particular thread.

I don't agree with #2 but if it's important to you than that's fine. I toured down there with 700c wheels and it was fine.

I can't answer your questions about wheels... in fact I'm curious about this too.

What I can offer is route ideas. I was down there a couple years ago for 7 months (http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/vagabondingsa). You'll hear a lot about the Carretera Austral and the Lake District which are great but there are other gems. If you like stunning views of the Andes you have to hit the passes.

Paso Agua Negra is amazing! I write about it here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=137277&v=J5), here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=137278&v=JD), and here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=137279&v=JP).
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4004/4314034743_0958b1e047.jpg

Another great pass is not far from Santiago which I write about here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=136024&v=LK) and here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=136025&v=Le).
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/pics/docs/00/00/59/96/large/4569?v=0

Finally the Atacama Desert is often avoided but it was probably my favorite spot. It has an endless horizon with nothing but sand but it lets you explore your mind and the night skies are amazing. I write about it here (https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1&page_id=137689&v=Gv) onward for two weeks.
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/pics/docs/00/00/59/96/large/5179?v=0

You'll find lots of route ideas at crazyguyonabike. Check that out and see what looks prettiest and feel free to ask.

. When you have to lift the bike onto your shoulders and hike a few miles, 5-10lbs makes a big difference, and the right frame will be just as reliable with less weight.

Salsa (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/el_mariachi_ss) looks like a great bet. In a couple of days, I'll be calling them to see about an El Mariachi-style frame with a 26" wheelset. My LBS is also a Salsa dealer, which is very convenient for me.

271820


Here's what I still need help understanding, if anyone has some experience. This is the only question I've got left: Buying wheels: do they need to be handbuilt? What types of wheels are specifically designed for bikepacking and what are they made of?


Thanks again for all the help. Please PM me if you have anything to suggest on safety, routes, or anything else in regards to the trip. Since I have lots of time, I haven't yet begun my research on the area beyond expected terrain, so it has no place in this particular thread.

You must realize that a lighter frame will not be 5-10lbs lighter but a lb. lighter.

Wheels should be hand built. Focusing on light weight rims when tire weight can vastly exceed the range of rim weights should suggest that robust rims can allow for light tires but light rims will not be more durable with heavy tires.

I think we'll definitely be having conversation, my friend!

But on another note, can you elaborate on your wheel experience a little? Did you find 700c support in South America, or did you just not have any flats/breaks?

You must realize that a lighter frame will not be 5-10lbs lighter but a lb. lighter.

Wheels should be hand built. Focusing on light weight rims when tire weight can vastly exceed the range of rim weights should suggest that robust rims can allow for light tires but light rims will not be more durable with heavy tires.

A Giant mountain bike is about 25lbs, but it's aluminum. A Salsa, fully loaded with a fork, is 28-29lbs. A Surly Troll or Surly Ogre is 33-34lbs. A Silkroad is 35lbs. But my research is based on manufacturer measurements, so it may not be that big a disparity. However, the Surly Troll has incredibly beefy tubing compared to the slightly more conservative Salsa. This is what I've found so far.

I understand that the more money you put into tires, the less they weigh. For instance, Schwalbe Marathons are 800g's, and Schwalbe Marathon Supremes are 440g's. For rims, I have to say that I do not care about weight. I do, a little... Unlike frames, I'll be perfectly fine buying rims that are heavier and overbuilt. I'm not slamming the frame all day, but I am slamming rims. I need bulletproof ones.

Any suggestions?

I think we'll definitely be having conversation, my friend!

But on another note, can you elaborate on your wheel experience a little? Did you find 700c support in South America, or did you just not have any flats/breaks?

Knowing that 700c would be in short supply in South America I brought two spare tires (only used one) and 3 or four tubes which were plenty. I even went so far as to bring spare spokes and a heavy cassette removal tool but didn't need anything. Like I said I don't know much about wheels so I went down with just the stock rims that came with my Trek 520 and they held up to the rough roads. Even if one split you could easily have one sent down and have it built up. Just go prepared and chances are you won't have any problems.

I know this is going to be like talking religion or politics and may get me in trouble, but here goes...

There are two common beliefs in touring that get repeated so often, they have become dogma.

The first is that a dollar bill can be used if necessary as a tire boot. Have you actually tried this? I don't want you to tell me what you've heard. I want to know from real experience. Dollar bill=tire boot ? Rubbish.

The second is that traveling in foreign lands with anything but a steel frame is asking for trouble. Afterall, no matter how remote the location, you will find a villager with a full machine shop in his mud hut and you will be able to have a broken frame welded. Once again, has this ever happened to you? I'm not interested in speculation, or remote theoretical possibilities. I want the facts, just the facts. Where were you when your frame broke, and how did you get it mended?


Now I'll stand back and watch for arrows and insults.
Is this what they call "trolling", stirring up trouble with inflamatory statements on the internet?

Something like old late 70s' stumpjumpers would be good,
because of their long chainstays and stable 71, 68 degree head and seat tube designs

offer a solid stability , if built with a low trail front fork
the steering with the front pannier load would be easy to handle, and as trail goes lower
with more rake, a J bent fork tight radius near the tip, would add a bit of give.

Building with a Horizontal oval top tube vertical oval down tube
and a brazed on as part of the frame rear rack would also be good..


NB I Did seek out some welding assistanceMid tour, this was in Killarney Ireland,
got help from a shop that made A/C heating, air distribution Ducts of stainless steel ..

My wheels were hand built by Me, so I knew how to cope with problems should they arise, and had extra spokes aboard in all 3 lengths.

My 26" wheel trekking bike , has a Rohloff hub, was built 3 X, [sort of like4 cross in a 36 hole
but Koga missed the key spoke on that set, so pattern was Off..
so I rebuilt it 2X which Rohloff recommends.

The first is that a dollar bill can be used if necessary as a tire boot. Have you actually tried this? I don't want you to tell me what you've heard. I want to know from real experience. Dollar bill=tire boot ? Rubbish.


Obviously you haven't done it. I have many times with 700x25-28mm tires.

OP, can't figure out how you came up with the bike weights, but I can assure you a typical steel frame is about 1-2 lbs heavier than a comparable aluminum frame. Your total bike weight differences come from other components or possibly slick marketing.

OP, can't figure out how you came up with the bike weights

OP is apparently just making stuff up.

A Surly Troll frame weighs about five and a half pounds. (http://forums.mtbr.com/surly/troll-frame-weight-715719.html) By comparison, an Ibis Tranny frame weighs about three pounds (http://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/tranny/#).

And nobody is going to lift the bike onto their shoulders and "hike a few miles" with a loaded touring bike. Ever. (And yes, I have had to portage plenty of times.)

OP is apparently just making stuff up.


I'm pretty sure he's looking at complete bike weights. Which if he's building the bike up himself, are totally irrelevant. Not sure if he is though.

I think we need to sort out exactly which bike the OP is talking about. His link about the El Mariachi goes to the single-speed version. There are geared MTB versions, but are they what he wants?

A quick check on google shows a price of $1900 for the El Mariachi 2 (SRAM components), and $1400 for the 3 (Shimano). Already a bit out of the OP's stated price range, especially when the No Tubes rims on the 2 have to be replaced by good old traditional tubed versions at 36H instead of 32H, and 26" instead of 29".

I won't go into whether the dropout arrangement could support a rack, because we don't know if a rack will be needed or not. The dropout arrangement itself is a bit of a worry, too, because extra screws and moving bits mean more things to go wrong.

And I won't mention much that frame weights usually are with the fork included. The weight for a medium frame is 2409 grams, and the fork with uncut steerer tube is 1080 grams, making an all-up weight of 3489 grams or 7.6lbs. The Troll, according to the mtbr link is 7.3lbs.


The devil really is in the detail.

As to tyres, well, anyone can recommend their favourite tyres. I used to love Conti Town and Country 26ers until they transferred manufacture from Germany to Thailand (IIRC). Picking a tyre by weight is only one factor -- feel, ability to handle rock or mud (or whatever the majority of the terrain will be) and harshness through the handlebars plus ability to handle low pressures are all factors.

Wheels? I have a pair of Velocity 26" Deep Vs in 36H form on my MTB at home that are tough as nails. Suns have a good reputation based on their Rhino Lites.

The El Mariachi might be supplied as a frame so that the OP can fit his own 26" wheels, but that might upset the intended handling characteristics of the bike, and void the warranty. I'd like to be a fly on the wall of the Salsa office when he calls.

Here's where I'm at so far:

#1. The bike HAS to be a steel frame. Even if other materials could, perhaps, fill the niche, Steel is just the safe bet.

#2. I need to use 26" wheels so I can replace them if necessary.


Max,

I think it's good to listen to recommendations because you asked for them, but please don't confine yourself to steel and 26-inch wheels. That's what I have, but I wouldn't limit myself to them.

Recommendations here generally migrate towards steel, 26-inch wheels and then possibly a Brooks saddle, Schwalbe tires, quill stem, and cantilever brakes. Next will probably be whether to use racks/panniers or a trailer system. How about neither. Another option is sacks, frame bags, and straps with our without a rack, especially if going ultralight or missing bike mounting points. (See link below.) I like what you did with the Raleigh Townsend for your recent tour. Ride and tour based on your own style and the knowledge you accumulated.




Here's what I still need help understanding, if anyone has some experience. This is the only question I've got left: Buying wheels: do they need to be handbuilt? What types of wheels are specifically designed for bikepacking and what are they made of?


If you are going lightweight, you probably don't need custom wheels although they are probably nice to have. Rims probably do matter to some extent if you use rim brakes because they wear the rim metal.

By the way, it's little known that a 700c wheel can be mounted on an old rigid mountain bike fork with a reflector hole at the crown for road brakes. A 700c wheel for the rigid mountain bike back may require an adapter or very vertically adjustable brakes.

Speaking of bikepacking, check this site for bikepacking setups (http://www.bikepacking.net/category/individual_setups/). I really like the one where rider sewed some velcro straps to a regular stuff sack for an inexpensive huge saddle bag. It doesn't appear like strapping stuff to the bike is necessarily lightweight.

-Lance

And I won't mention much that frame weights usually are with the fork included. The weight for a medium frame is 2409 grams, and the fork with uncut steerer tube is 1080 grams, making an all-up weight of 3489 grams or 7.6lbs. The Troll, according to the mtbr link is 7.3lbs.


It's pretty common (in my experience anyway) for MTBs to quote the frame weight sans fork, since anybody who is doing their own build is probably going to select a fork separately. Regardless, the difference between a heavy touring frame and the lightest stupid-light race frame you can buy is around two pounds, not ten. Significant for an XC race bike, but pretty much totally irrelevant for a touring bike. I mean, a pint of water weighs a pound. You can take a pound off your rig by having a good crap in the morning.

M,

DT Alpine III spokes are excellent, among the very best for your application. I've had zero problems with them. Sheldon Brown has written highly of them, and Joe Young (a great and very experienced wheelbuilder) recommended them to me.

Yes, I think an ace wheelbuilder is worth finding. They don't cost that much, even the best ones; and the added reliability is worth it. This is one of the most important things to get right, if you want reliability and the freedom from mechanical issues while touring.

Years of experience can really make a difference when it comes to mechanics and wheelbuilders. Some of these guys have seen so many failures and breakdowns, and the good ones understand what works, far better than the vast majority of cyclists and less experienced mechanics and wheelbuilders. Some are also very conscientious and perfectionistic.

These guys also know rims. If you give your weight, trip length, terrain, riding style etc., they'll recommend the most appropriate rim choices.

If Joe Young is still around, you could give him a call. He is a good guy to work with. Last I heard he was in Texas. It's easy to ship the wheels via FedEx. Gravy Wheels in San Anselmo, CA, used to be good. Don't know the current situation.

If you want to learn about wheelbuilding, there are good, detailed books by Jobst Brandt and Gerd S(c)hraner. I woul still recommend a crack wheelbuilder, though. They'll have some extra levels of skill and understanding compared to anyone doing it for the first time, even with these books and other resources. Some people do it themselves and it works out fine. I would still recommend an excellent builder, though. Along wth understanding as much of it as you care to go into.

Another approach to finding ultra-reliable rims is to see what companies like Co-Motion use on their tandems and touring or touring-expedition bikes. They have a ton of experience with many high quality builds, and a wide variety of riders -- they've seen a lot and know what works. Same for other longterm high-end, quality tandem builders.

Tandems see extra stresses, especially touring and expedition tandems; and these setups need an extra level of reliability. You might not need to go all the way to the end of their spectrum, but they might have some good recommendations or indications for you.

Downhill mt biking is another field where you will find exceptionally strong rims being used. Mtbr.com reviews might be of interest.

In general, the narrower rims are not as suitable as the wider ones for your application. Someone like Joe Young could explain this well.

OP is apparently just making stuff up.



Making stuff up does nothing for me, so why would I? Please don't come in here to pick fights...




A Surly Troll frame weighs about five and a half pounds. (http://forums.mtbr.com/surly/troll-frame-weight-715719.html) By comparison, an Ibis Tranny frame weighs about three pounds (http://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/tranny/#).

And nobody is going to lift the bike onto their shoulders and "hike a few miles" with a loaded touring bike. Ever. (And yes, I have had to portage plenty of times.)


I hiked 2.2 miles from the road to the summit of Mt. Hurricane with a 46lb touring bike, gear and that night's food and water included. My touring bike alone was 29lbs.

In fact, LAST NIGHT I biked up Mt. Greylock in MA, and then carried my bike 1.5 miles down the trail. This time, we were leaving from town, so it was only a 15 mile ride up the mountain. I put a 25lb backpack on my back for the entire excursion, so I was carrying a backpack AND a bike when I took the thunderbolt.


If it means a summit with a view, I'd hike 5+.

Maybe you don't walk with a bike on your shoulders, but I do- it's part of getting to the best camp spots for me, an experience I am not willing to give up. 2.2 miles of hiking with 46 lbs balanced across my shoulders got me this:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7135/7876172358_af2f0cd4a5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81057494@N03/7876172358/)
2012 Northeast Bike Tour (Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81057494@N03/7876172358/) by Max Roman (http://www.flickr.com/people/81057494@N03/), on Flickr

There's my motivation for shaving pounds off the frame. So, for the last time, NO SURLY TROLLS!!! :)

Much love for full touring setups like 4x panniers, those who do it enjoy life. But it's not me- my gear is minimal. I may use a back rack if the frame supports it. More likely, I'll be bikepacking it with Relevate Designs frame bags, as other users suggest. Please make reccomendations with this in mind!



Alright, addressing other posts:

I see Rolhoff a lot on this forum, so I'll look into that. Also, I got to see an expedition tandem this summer and the wheels were burly, but if I'm not mistaken, considerably wider than most wheels. I doubt there's a direct translation to be had here, but I'll keep the materials in mind and check these out anyways.

I will not be building this bike up myself, since it's considerably cheaper to get a fully built bike. The El Mariachi picture was just so you all could see what kind of frame I was interested in. 26" wheels won't fit on it. What I need is a DIFFERENT bike frame that does fit 26" wheels, salsa or otherwise. The Salsa is a great example of a minimalist steel frame without too much overkill in the weight department.

A big thanks for the advice on handbuilt wheels. Anyone know of pre-built wheels that also fit the bill? The stock rims on my Port Townsend are absolutely beastly, I've never even untrued them and I've had to "mountain bike" more than once. There must be some rims out there that I don't have to get custom made, since that'll cost a small fortune (though, I'd do it if I had to).


Also, my pricing on the El Mariachi was off of mtbr.com, and they had it at 1500 even. That may have been for the steel fork version, though.

Thorn, out of SJS.co.UK, makes frame-sets used for lots of world adventure tourists..

they weigh a few Oz more for .. reliable durability.. offered in R'off friendly frame designs
and those for Derailleur drive trains.

if in the US, QBP has their own wheel building cubicle division,
ships out of the same wholesale distributorship ..

Thorn, out of SJS.co.UK, makes frame-sets used for lots of world adventure tourists..

they weigh a few Oz more for .. reliable durability.. offered in R'off friendly frame designs
and those for Derailleur drive trains.

if in the US, QBP has their own wheel building cubicle division,
ships out of the same wholesale distributorship ..


Thank you! Will look into both of these. What's QBP?

Do a google search. You might be surprised at what bike brands they control.

The type of bike the guy is looking for in Thorn is probably the Sherpa, and they are quite expensive, let alone landing on inn the US with the freight. Over $2000 when last I looked, but I notice they have a special on right now for ex-display stock of 1,000 pounds. The Raven Sport Tour frames start at 600 pounds.

A new Rohloff hub generally will cost as much as the OP has budgeted for a whole bike.

A simple google search on bike models also will reveal the actual asking price (on-line) by bike shops. mtbr is not the best place to get that sort of current pricing.

And about the only worthwhile suggestion your best buddy Niles has made is in regard to the Jamis Dragon that came in at the price you wanted and in steel.

I really like how you now have prioritised this thread to concentrate on the wheels to go on your bike. But you aren't going to avoid devolving this thread back into discussing the bike, when you haven't progress any further than steel, 26" MTB, and like the El Mariachi, off the shelf.

Regardless, the difference between a heavy touring frame and the lightest stupid-light race frame you can buy is around two pounds, not ten. Significant for an XC race bike, but pretty much totally irrelevant for a touring bike.

The frame is probably the last place to worry about weight on a touring bike, but one thing is often overlooked when folks say that a pound (or two) doesn't matter. That 2 pounds may not make a big difference, but it is one of many choices and they all add up. With choices of 2 pounds here, 8 ounces there, a couple more ounces somewhere else, and so on pretty soon you have a very substantial gain in weight.

It may be worth the extra pound or even two in the frame, but I would caution against too liberally applying the logic that a pound doesn't matter.

Paying attention to the weight of each and every item can make a big difference. I think that I went from something a bit under 80 pounds of bike and gear on my first tour to 33 pounds of bike and gear. Despite a 45+ pound reduction, I maintained comfort. the ability to cook and camp, and was actually better prepared for cold weather on the more recent lighter tours.

You do need adequate durability and probably more so on a South American tour than a US tour and there always is the question of where to draw that line. Taking heavier items may make sense, but the weight should be considered and balanced against the required durability.

Bottom line, choosing to take extra weight for added durability or even added comfort may make sense, but it is a slippery slope to say that a couple pounds for one item does not matter.

Damn no Trolls.... Why the hate :)

I think Rolfhoff's are a 135 mm dropout. Whatever that means. Its way over your budget anyway, your looking closer to 1700 bucks for the wheel/hub alone.

Hand built wheels are nice. I'd rather spend a few extra bucks and stronger wheels that might last a little longer. Your looking at getting a factory bike, different wheels will likely be out of your budget.

The first is that a dollar bill can be used if necessary as a tire boot. Have you actually tried this? I don't want you to tell me what you've heard. I want to know from real experience. Dollar bill=tire boot ? Rubbish.


Will you accept a twenty crown note or an energy bar wrapper?

Damn no Trolls.... Why the hate :)

I think Rolfhoff's are a 135 mm dropout. Whatever that means. Its way over your budget anyway, your looking closer to 1700 bucks for the wheel/hub alone.

Hand built wheels are nice. I'd rather spend a few extra bucks and stronger wheels that might last a little longer. Your looking at getting a factory bike, different wheels will likely be out of your budget.

True, those wheels are way out of my budget. Still, my LBS owes me a favor, so if I need to replace the stock wheels with a $200-400 wheel, they'll internalize the cost of the stocks to cut me a bargain. Probably. I'm going to ask really nicely.

I really don't want to derail my own thread, but here's a question:

The Dragon 26 Sport is an extremely good bike, but it's 2011. All the 2012's are 29. If I were to find a frame, is it taboo or just a bad idea to buy up the Deore or SRAM Component group off of ebay over the next 6 months? Has anyone done this successfully?

I see Rolhoff a lot on this forum, so I'll look into that. Also, I got to see an expedition tandem this summer and the wheels were burly, but if I'm not mistaken, considerably wider than most wheels. I doubt there's a direct translation to be had here, but I'll keep the materials in mind and check these out anyways.

It's spelled Rohloff. Rohloff hubs are heavy, require a specially built wheel and are ungodly expensive. Don't waste your time and money. Tandem wheels are overbuilt for your purpose. Check Universal/Handspun for decent handbuilt wheels at a reasonable price. Pre-handbuilt stock wheelsets run around $300, then add the cost of rotors and cassette. Mavic XM719 and XT hubs.

And by the way, even though I don't like the guy at a personal level, Peter White is regarded as one of the best wheel builders in North America, and he is in Vermont or New Hampshire or close to the border of the two, if I remember correctly, which means he is, I think, a hop skip and jump from you. You could probably make an appointment to see him personally to discuss your needs and budget on wheels. Talk to Linda, his wife, first -- she's s sweetie and will try to get things organised for you to talk to him (although, as we found, there are no guarantees on that, either).

No doubt Peter White builds great wheels, but my recent experience was less than expected. I got a quote for wheels, which came in about $100 higher than the same handbuilt wheels from Universal/Handspun. Is his expertise worth $100? Not to me. The thing that lost the sale, though, was the lack of personalized service. I asked for his recommendations, and basically got a quote from someone else who works there. Maybe my requirements are not unique enough to warrant a personal response and suggestions of alternatives, but it felt like I was dealing with a large impersonal corporation eager to take an order and charge a premuim, but offering nothing in exchange. Mistakenly thought I was dealing with a small home business that actually listens and responds. Competing on price against the likes of Universal/Handspun is a losing proposition.

No doubt Peter White builds great wheels, but my recent experience was less than expected. I got a quote for wheels, which came in about $100 higher than the same handbuilt wheels from Universal/Handspun. Is his expertise worth $100? Not to me. The thing that lost the sale, though, was the lack of personalized service. I asked for his recommendations, and basically got a quote from someone else who works there. Maybe my requirements are not unique enough to warrant a personal response and suggestions of alternatives, but it felt like I was dealing with a large impersonal corporation eager to take an order and charge a premuim, but offering nothing in exchange. Mistakenly thought I was dealing with a small home business that actually listens and responds. Competing on price against the likes of Universal/Handspun is a losing proposition.
I can see where you are coming from in the comparison with Universal/Handspun. I had a similar experience with White when we were on our way to the BMB1200... lined up to meet him, buy a SON hub for Machka, get the spokes, chew the fat, but when we got there, he wasn't interested. It was all left to Linda to do.

I suggested White because he is, I think, in the OP's area. I've also though of suggesting Bruce Gordon as a frame builder to make up a custom frame for the OP. Now that would be quite the ego-fest -- Max, White and Gordon!

I digress. I deleted the post you quoted, because... well, I'm just not in the mood anymore. In case others are wondering, here is what it was:


I really don't want to derail my own thread, but here's a question:

The Dragon 26 Sport is an extremely good bike, but it's 2011. All the 2012's are 29. If I were to find a frame, is it taboo or just a bad idea to buy up the Deore or SRAM Component group off of ebay over the next 6 months? Has anyone done this successfully?

We do it all the time and it's a good-value way of getting good, reliable components. All of our most recent seven or eight bikes bar one (the tandem) have been built up that way.

I know you're not keen on playing the mechanic, but really, putting this stuff on such a bike will give a much deeper understanding of how things work, and how you might go about repairing them on the road or track.

The fact that the Dragon 26 is a 2011 bike should not deter you. Just look harder. There is this listing on CL I turned up on a google search, and I think I saw others referenced with 650B wheels:

http://for-sale.yakaz.com/jamis-dragon-pro#lo=4&docid=0003q3stthpmntjk

It's always much better to buy a complete bike, and to upgrade as you go along. You never know, you might be able to handle SS with the right sized cog on the back.

The thing I am thinking is this, whether you like it or not:

The longer you go with the vacillation on which bike you should have, the less time you actually have to ride it, get used to it, see exactly what capabilities it and its components have, and whether it will carry the loads you want, where you want. And... if it doesn't work, then you can flog it off at a still reasonable price, be well equipped with knowledge, and make a better selection.

As I said on the other thread, and others have said it, too, the only way to find out is to do it. Getting all the information in the world isn't going to resolve the issue.

And believe it or not, I do admire your desire to take this tour as light as possible. I've just lugged bike and packs on and off several trains between cities in France, in and out of hotels, today, and I am buggered. Admittedly, I am carrying a load for a round-the-world trip (not ride), and there's also food and other consumable stuff in there. But the weight here and there does add up.

Having said that, a balance has to be struck, not in the comfort area, but in the reliability area for what you want to do. That may mean, as staehpj1 points out, putting on heavier duty wheels and tyres that might otherwise be desirable for a Trans-Am trip or one of those rides up into your North-East mountains.

And by the way, even though I don't like the guy at a personal level, Peter White is regarded as one of the best wheel builders in North America, and he is in Vermont or New Hampshire or close to the border of the two, if I remember correctly, which means he is, I think, a hop skip and jump from you. You could probably make an appointment to see him personally to discuss your needs and budget on wheels. Talk to Linda, his wife, first -- she's s sweetie and will try to get things organised for you to talk to him (although, as we found, there are no guarantees on that, either).

Tandems come with some of the same rims as expedition touring bikes. Velocity Aeroheats (442 grams) are used both for their (Co-Motion's) expedition tandem,

http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/tandems/mocha

and for their expedition single,

http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/singles/pangea

These would be a reasonable, but perhaps not optimal, choice.

If you want something more bombproof (580 grams), there is:

http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/product.asp?pID=55&cID=22

If you want something even more bombproof (804 grams) there is:

http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/product.asp?pID=239&cID=22

And there are other Velocity rims as well.

The Synergy is an offset design, meaning that you can build a wheel with more even dish and spoke tension between the drive side and the non-drive side, or on a front disc wheel, which is a stronger design (430 grams), AEBE:

http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/product.asp?pID=61&cID=22

DT Swiss rims are high quality. I have found that high-end Swiss products tend to be especially well engineered. Also rather expensive, though.

Mavic rims are widely used, and are well made.

There is a balancing act between weight and durability or strength.

There is also a balancing act involved when you want something that is 'overbuilt.' Overbuilt can be good. It ensures a greater level of durability, a greater buffer zone or margin of error. But you can go too far with it. How much is enough? How much is too much? One notch past 'just strong enough'? Two notches?...

It depends on weight involved, length of time involved, riding style, speed, toughness of hits, roughness of terrain, etc.

For an extremely fast, aggressive rider on the type of trip you'll be doing, an extremely durable rim would be a good choice. I don't know if you want or need 804 grams, though.

A wider rim will give you a wider footprint and more traction. It will also increase the air volume and provide more protection against pinch flats. It will also have more lateral strength than a narrower rim of similar thickness and design. It will be more difficult to taco.

M,

These descriptions might be of interest:


26" Aeroheat





Our favorite rim available in 26” size and under. It’s strong, durable and makes the ideal single track, city riding, loaded touring, tandem, and recumbent wheel… the Aeroheat can handle it all without weighing you down. We also use this extrusion throughout our complete range from 16" to the 700c Dyad.


Cliffhanger 26"





The only choice when you need a rim that is tough and long-lasting. The Cliffhanger is based on the Aeroheat rim, but we made the walls 15% thicker to give it added strength and durability. We also made it a little wider and a little deeper to handle anything you can throw at it.


Psycho 26"





Just like the name. It’s the toughest rim we manufacter, making it the only choice for downhill, or fully loaded touring & offering a low profile box section, with eyelets. Built to handle anything you can dish out.


They are, respectively, 24mm, 28mm, and 31.5mm wide.

No doubt Peter White builds great wheels, but my recent experience was less than expected. I got a quote for wheels, which came in about $100 higher than the same handbuilt wheels from Universal/Handspun. Is his expertise worth $100? Not to me. The thing that lost the sale, though, was the lack of personalized service. I asked for his recommendations, and basically got a quote from someone else who works there. Maybe my requirements are not unique enough to warrant a personal response and suggestions of alternatives, but it felt like I was dealing with a large impersonal corporation eager to take an order and charge a premuim, but offering nothing in exchange. Mistakenly thought I was dealing with a small home business that actually listens and responds. Competing on price against the likes of Universal/Handspun is a losing proposition.

What lost the sale for me was an extremely, almost absurdly arrogant, PITA attitude. Along with some inaccurate information and misinterpretation of my questions. What a headache. Who needs it. There are always alternatives to these sorts of guys. I would rather give my business and my time to someone who has some manners and courtesy.

Dealing with Joe Young was a genuine pleasure. He was a real gentleman.

Even if alternatives are hard to find, I've resolved to make it a policy not to do business with the others.

Question, essentially, answered. These wheel descriptions will be all I need to choose something durable and sufficient for my needs. Thank you.

Rowan, your insight with purchasing a bike was especially helpful. Forgive me for drilling these forums to death- reselling a bike to recuperate funds is scarier when you have a limited income. I am not a rich man. I want to try, if possible, to get it right the first time.

I am strongly considering building the bike up myself to learn more about threading cables and such successfully, if I ever need to make a replacement on the road. My one barrier to doing this is price, but if that can be overcome through patience and good research, I'm sold.

Do I need to worry about what year components were manufactured in to make sure they are compatible? Within the same compset, like Deore or Deore XT.

Gracias, everyone.

M,

A couple of people who work in the bike industry and know rims well suggested that I use rims that are at least 28mm wide. I just pass this on in case it might be of interest to you.

Also, that Jamis Dragon Pro looks interesting. Goleta is where the University of California Santa Barbara students often live. The campus is right there, near the beach. How it has been ridden and cared for isn't clear; but if it's well cared for, then it looks like a decent prospect.

If you see Gunnar Rock Hounds and Gunnar Rock Tours at a reasonable price, they are worth a look. They're also made with high-end steels (Reynolds 853 and OX Platinum). I've heard some very good things about these bikes. Some young bike enthusiasts working in a large bike shop, who had access to a wide variety of bikes, and test rode many of them, were raving about the ride quality and feel of the Gunnars.

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/support/gunnar-history/

I've seen them on ebay within your price range.

If you see Independent Fabrication bikes, have a look. They are an excellent builder, and also use high-performance steels.

There are some models from Marin that are right on a par with the Jamis Dragon. The Team Marin and the Team Issue (certain vintages) are among them.

This guy used the Team Marin for some very rugged trips,

http://www3.utsidan.se/corax-e/

By the way, Waterford, the company behind Gunnar, also made some of Salsa's high-end steel frames for them.

I am strongly considering building the bike up myself to learn more about threading cables and such successfully, if I ever need to make a replacement on the road. My one barrier to doing this is price, but if that can be overcome through patience and good research, I'm sold.

Do I need to worry about what year components were manufactured in to make sure they are compatible? Within the same compset, like Deore or Deore XT.

Gracias, everyone.

Some people buy a bike with the compset they want, at a good price; then strip it and transfer it to another frame; and then, sometimes, resell the first frame. That's just another possible way of going about it. It is sometimes easier and more economical to get a bundle than a bunch of separate parts and transactions.

You do need to be careful. There are changes through the years. You wouldn't want 8- or 9-spd shifters with a 10-spd cassette, for example. You would want to know the tubing diameters. You would want to know the exact width of the bottom bracket shell (they can vary), in order to know whether or not a given bottom bracket will fit properly. You need to match diameters and sizes. You wouldn't want a short cage derailleur when the rest of the system called for a long cage.

XTR cables are not exorbitantly expensive. They are very smooth, and are one of the best ways of raising the level of your bike's feel.

If you have the time and inclination, there is a lot to be said for knowing your bike inside out, on a trip like yours. An alternative way of learning (instead of assembling the parts on a bare frame) is to get a complete bike to begin with, and then take it apart, and put it back together, several times. And learn what everything does. You can learn a lot that way. It's a good way to learn. They've been doing it with rifles in the military for many years, and it works. You develop proficiency and familiarity, and it becomes natural. There is a lot you can understand just by taking things apart (carefully and properly) and figuring them out, and putting them back together. It would help to have some guidance or resources for understanding some things better. Sheldon Brown is one resource. If you have the right tools (you'll want a good, light set of tools for the trip anyway; and they aren't too numerous or expensive), it can actually be enjoyable. And it's not rocket science; it isn't that difficult. One of the joys of bikes is their simplicity.

There are many good resources online to help you learn -- videos, for example, from Park Tools and others (youtube.com and elsewhere). There is a guy who calls himself the Bicycle Tutor. He used to be free. Now there is a small fee. He's very good, though; and I think he's worth the small asking price, at least.

Sheldon Brown's writings are great for learning about mechanical issues, repairs, assembly, etc.,

http://sheldonbrown.com/repair/index.html

Question, essentially, answered. These wheel descriptions will be all I need to choose something durable and sufficient for my needs. Thank you.

Gracias, everyone.

You're welcome.

One other point about rims, though: designs with eyelets tend to be more durable than those without eyelets (with rims of otherwise comparable designs). The Psychos are among the rims with eyelets. Eyelets help to distribute the loads or stresses where the spokes pull on the rims; and they help prevent cracking at and between the spoke-nipple holes, which is a fairly common problem.

Uniform and proper spoke tension is a very key point. It's worth researching and learning more about it, for durable wheels.

It helps prevent spoke breakage (which is a very common problem for many who tour), among other problems.

Triple-butted spokes of high-quality steel and construction (DT Swiss Alpine III) also help with this. Spokes often fatigue and break at the elbow, where they connect to the hub. Triple butting; quality steel; stress relieving when building or hand-finishing the wheel; and appropriately high, uniform spoke tension are together tremendously helpful for wheel durability.

It isn't just the rim. These other factors are extremely important as well. Even the strongest, heaviest rim available will make for a non-durable (even a very non-durable) wheel if other aspects are not in order. Especially: quality spokes that are well and evenly tensioned.

Hope you keep another, possibly less tangible value in sight, and at the fore:

I don't know how you spell this, so I can only offer it in sound, beginning at about 00:18 (it helps to have good, robust sound/earbuds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbsw5qLjyhw

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbsw5qLjyhw)May your trip have it in abundance.

Hope you keep another, possibly less tangible value in sight, and at the fore:

I don't know how you spell this, so I can only offer it in sound, beginning at about 00:18 (it helps to have good, robust sound/earbuds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbsw5qLjyhw
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbsw5qLjyhw)
May your trip have it in abundance.


Well received. Whilst standing in the middle of a rotary in Cape Cod, I made that noise after completing 102 consecutive miles, my first Century. I remember it fondly :)

The frame is probably the last place to worry about weight on a touring bike, but one thing is often overlooked when folks say that a pound (or two) doesn't matter. That 2 pounds may not make a big difference, but it is one of many choices and they all add up. With choices of 2 pounds here, 8 ounces there, a couple more ounces somewhere else, and so on pretty soon you have a very substantial gain in weight.

Oh, I don't disagree with this at all. But I would suggest that on an adventure touring rig, weight (especially on the frame) should be a secondary consideration to reliability, especially if cost is a critical issue. And as Mr. Bontrager says, "Light, strong, cheap: pick two".

Surprised nobody in this thread has brought up Rhyno Lite rims, which is what I run on my 26" backcountry tourer.

It's spelled Rohloff. Rohloff hubs are heavy, require a specially built wheel and are ungodly expensive. Don't waste your time and money.

A Rohloff is hardly a waste of time or money. They become considerably more economical when you consider how many other hubs/cassettes/derailleurs, etc. you are likely to go through over the lifetime of a Rohloff. And if you are interested in reliability under any and all circumstances, nothing compares. Curious what you mean about a "specially built wheel". They lace to any 32-hole rim, and don't require any more "special" building than any other hub, i.e. spokes the right length. And they're dishless, so much stronger than a cassette hub.

They also have the nice feature of shifting without pedaling, which is handy on a loaded rig.

A Rohloff is hardly a waste of time or money. They become considerably more economical when you consider how many other hubs/cassettes/derailleurs, etc. you are likely to go through over the lifetime of a Rohloff. And if you are interested in reliability under any and all circumstances, nothing compares. Curious what you mean about a "specially built wheel". They lace to any 32-hole rim, and don't require any more "special" building than any other hub, i.e. spokes the right length. And they're dishless, so much stronger than a cassette hub.

They also have the nice feature of shifting without pedaling, which is handy on a loaded rig.

Not recommending a Rohloff for the OP's first touring bike. It would be a complete waste of money, for the OP, who appears to have a limited budget. You need a custom built wheel, which adds to the cost, rather than an off-the-shelf wheel that is mass produced and is far less expensive. They are heavy and reliable, and will indeed last a very long time, but probably not advisable for the OP.

Not recommending a Rohloff for the OP's first touring bike.

Oh, of course not. A Rohloff is wildly out of his price range.

Not recommending a Rohloff for the OP's first touring bike. It would be a complete waste of money, for the OP, who appears to have a limited budget. You need a custom built wheel, which adds to the cost, rather than an off-the-shelf wheel that is mass produced and is far less expensive. They are heavy and reliable, and will indeed last a very long time, but probably not advisable for the OP.
And I gather they need to be serviced with oil changes at the specified intervals, with the correct grade of oil. I have read of several (surprising) examples of gears being lost in them (although I can't give you links to those right now).

And I gather they need to be serviced with oil changes at the specified intervals, with the correct grade of oil.

This is correct, every year or 5000 km, whichever comes first. I imagine you could go quite a lot further than this without issue. The oil-change procedure is simple and pretty much foolproof (http://youtu.be/fVhmgqICNhU).

One nice thing is that an oil leak is non-catastrophic. A Rohloff can run indefinitely on retained oil even if it drains completely.

The future me will have a yearly salary and a bike with a Rolhoff as a mid-life crisis as opposed to a boat or a motorcycle. One day, I'll take that dive.

Judging by the video posted in another thread on wheelbuilding, it seems machine built wheels don't necessarily have the limitations that seem to be famously associated with them. Is this a case similar to, say, Ortlieb vs. Vaude where everyone has a general opinion that holds up some weight, but not a lot under scrutiny? I don't want to avoid machine-built rims based on a taboo when it could save me $300.

My LBS is Mavic-supported to a fault, so having Mavic wheels would mean I really get taken care of as to truing/tensioning. But, they're machine-built...

The future me will have a yearly salary and a bike with a Rolhoff as a mid-life crisis as opposed to a boat or a motorcycle. One day, I'll take that dive.

Judging by the video posted in another thread on wheelbuilding, it seems machine built wheels don't necessarily have the limitations that seem to be famously associated with them. Is this a case similar to, say, Ortlieb vs. Vaude where everyone has a general opinion that holds up some weight, but not a lot under scrutiny? I don't want to avoid machine-built rims based on a taboo when it could save me $300.

My LBS is Mavic-supported to a fault, so having Mavic wheels would mean I really get taken care of as to truing/tensioning. But, they're machine-built...
It does depend on the hubs that are used and whether they are what you want.

In short, the reason why people like me build our own wheels is that we can get exactly the rims, spokes, nipples, hubs and rim tape we want. That may mean a 36-spoke wheel when the only off-the-shelf, ready-built option is a 32H one.

An example concerns the wheels on our current touring bike -- Mavic A719 rims with DT Swiss double-butted spokes, and XT Shimano hubs and Zefal rim tape. I don't think there is a machine-built wheel available like that.

My LBS is Mavic-supported to a fault, so having Mavic wheels would mean I really get taken care of as to truing/tensioning. But, they're machine-built...

My impression is that Mavic wheels are mostly low spoke count racing wheels with straight pull spokes which will leave you needing a total wheel replacement in the hinterlands.

Not necessarily. I'm thinking something like these. (http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/mountain/downhill-freeride/mavic-721-quando-20mm-/-xt/prod_114.html)

Downhill wheels for very heavy riders. The spoke count is high, and the materials seem pretty bulletproof. It would be helpful to know if I can expect drawbacks versus getting handbuilt wheels, besides what Rowan pointed out.

That isn't to dismiss you, Rowan! It's a strong point. If I found a wheel-builder, I may do just that.

Not necessarily. I'm thinking something like these. (http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/mountain/downhill-freeride/mavic-721-quando-20mm-/-xt/prod_114.html)

Downhill wheels for very heavy riders. The spoke count is high, and the materials seem pretty bulletproof. It would be helpful to know if I can expect drawbacks versus getting handbuilt wheels, besides what Rowan pointed out.

That isn't to dismiss you, Rowan! It's a strong point. If I found a wheel-builder, I may do just that.

Oh hell yeah! Out of curiosity is there an adapter for converting a 20mm dropout to 9mm?

I didn't see the reference to Quando hubs until just now. They're a cheap hub, too. Be warned (apart from that need for a throughbolt 20mmm dropout).

XT on the rear would be fine.