Touring - 1 night bike camping, need advice on panniers etc

Hi I am in the LA area and I am thinking about doing some group 1 night bike camping trips. They bike about 25 mile to campgrounds where the participants set up their own tents.

I have a touring/road bike with rear Blackburn Expedition 2 rack mounted. (I actually have more than 1 of these sorts of bikes with racks.) Right now I am just riding locally recreationally and occasional bike commuting, and i mounted a rectangular milk crate on the rack on 1 of my bikes.

To do the 1 night overnight camping trip I would need: tent, sleeping bag, sleeping roll (I think) and would have to bring misc stuff ie clothes, jacket, flashlight, etc. I would not be bringing cooking eqpt., i would rather eat packaged food.

I do not yet own any panniers. I have a Chrome Citizen messenger bag and I put this in the milk crate on the rack on my bike when i dont feel like having the bag on my back.

I am wondering if i need panniers for overnight camping-- if i could just put the needed eqpt in my milkcrate and also add a front rack that takes a basket (like the racks and Wald basket rivendell bike sells).

I dont understand if i had panniers made for touring, if my tent and sleeping bag would go INSIDE the panniers or on top of them. I also dont know if my tent and sleeeping bag and sleeping roll would be a good fit for my milk crate or on top of the milk crate.

I dont currently own a tent, sleeping bag or sleeping roll. I figure id like to get a 2 person tent because i dont like to be cramped. So id be looking at a lightweight 2 person tent made for bike camping. I dont know any models of tents, sleeping bags, or sleeping rolls so i dont know sizes or weights or how they would fit on the bike.

Any suggestions as to panniers v. using my milk crate instead, and v. using a basket mounted on a front rack rather than front panniers, would be appreciated.

My preferance would be to not use panniers at all but keep my milk crate on back, and get a front rack and wald basket for the front from rivendelll, because i feel that for general use around town the baskets are more useful than panniers. For one reason is that i park my bike on streets all the time so i cant leave panniers on the bike around town due to theft concerns. Thats why for bike commuting i put my messenger bag in the milk crate and then take the bag into work.

Thanks

There are no specific bike touring tents, we just use the lightweight hiking ones.
Some people use taps which can be cheaper than tents. hammock are another option. it depends on temp, insect life, tree availability, pitching surface and privacy requirements. My first bike camping trip used a cheap simple tarp.
I can fit my tent, bag and mat inside a pannier if I am not taking coking stuff. If I need more room inside the panniers the tent, bag and mat can be strapped to the rack top.
Touring panniers can be quite expensive. You can probably manage without for your first 1night trip. just put everything in a bag in your crate.

My first tour was 1000 miles around Lake Michigan about 40 years ago and I did not own panniers. I didn't even know what they were. I bought a nylon duffle bag at the local sports store and hung it between the brake hoods, then rolled everything else into the sleeping bag and strapped it to the rear rack in a plastic garbage bag. I used a plastic tarp for shelter, the garbage bag as a ground sheet, hadn't even heard of camping mattresses so I didn't bring one of those, cooked over a wood fire with one pot--somehow I survived the trip without much gear and even enjoyed it. You don't really have to have panniers or half the stuff you'll see others using.

I have all that stuff now, bought on sale or used when I figured out I'd be using it a lot, knew exactly what I wanted, and it was worth it. I use a nylon tarptent now, and a down quilt, and the stuff is so small that everything I need for a three-season trip fits in two rear panniers, with a foam mattress on top.

Enjoy the trip!

2,200 miles camping all the way.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/Fred%20Tipps/FredTipps.jpg

This is what I got on sale recently: http://www.sportchalet.com/product/outdoor/backpacking+-+hiking/backpacking+tents/300416_3072657.do

It has a modified hoop tent design that results in vertical sides with loads of headroom. Also look at the Zia 2 at the same site.

Also look in Amazon for the ALPS Zephyr 2: http://www.amazon.com/ALPS-Mountaineering-Zephyr-Backpacking-Tent/dp/B000MAOEB4

There's lots of good reports on this one.

You can probably find a 20-30F down sleeping bag on sale on the Net or locally at some place like the Sports Chalet in LA for around $100. The temperature in summer is too high for that, but they compact down so small, and can be unzipped and used as a quilt if it's warm, that a cheap fleece sleeping bag is bulkier and a second choice.

Look into making your own panniers out of plastic containers. I just made some mini-panniers out of 7 quart dry dog food storage bins from the pet store, held on with zip-ties at the top and a strap around the bottom part to stabilize it to the lower part of the rack. Tent and sleeping bag were in a stuff sack on top of the rack. Advantages of the plastic panniers:

Cheap, and maybe lighter than waterproof ones such as Ortliebs.
Easy to make.
Absolutely weather and insect-proof, and more rodent-resistant.
Probably more areodynamic than nylon panniers.
Can be used as stools when no table or chairs at the campsite...such as stealth-camping, or the H & B siite at San Elijo State Beach I just did my overnighter at (the long-distance tourists said it is the crummiest H & B site on the whole Pacific Coast route, just some dirt patches up against the fence. The campground does have an awesome taco shop with outside seating on a patio clifftop overlooking the Pacific, with free wifi and an outside soda fountain that you can get lots of ice from. Ask the shop for the WPA password for wifi.)

Can be filled with ice (per above) and used as a makeshilft cooler.
Can be filled with water and used as "the kitchen sink" to wash dishes and clothes, clean veggies, presoak noodles, or even as a spare water jug.
I have an idea to paint the outside part with reflective paint, and the inner side with black, to see if it will make a good solar shower.
If you use a heavy-duty bucket, such as a cat-litter bucket, you can attach a hasp & lock to the lid to deter casual thieves/racoons (in camp); also some method to lock it to the rack for the same purpose.

Cons: looks "ghetto", maybe a paint job would fix that.

With the panniers, load heavier items to the front, light bulky stuff to the back. Lose the heavy crate and use stuff bags on top. For commuting, just use one pannier and take it inside, or stick with your current crate + bag setup.

Sleeping pads can be bulky or expensive. I'm able to sleep just fine on the smallest 1'' thick x 48'' long Thermarest backpack self-inflating pad ($80) that rolls up to about the size of my 32 oz water bottle, and fits into the mini-pannier, but many people can't. Maybe you can rent various pads from REI to test them out.

Also, for bike-touring, you don't need a powerful, expensive stove to melt snow for drinking water; make or buy an alcohol stove and make a mini-pot out a really-big energy drink can. Check ebay for stoves if you don't want to make one, though that's half the fun. Aluminum alcohol stoves are also very compact and light, perfect for a mini-pannier. The other mini-pannier is large enough to hold my netbook, power adapter, and Nook in a padded case, plus other stuff I push into the crannies (lighter, utensils, mini-bottles of shampoo, sunscreen, chainlube, multi-tools, etc.)

If you take off the lid of a plastic pannier, you can make an expanding top for it with a stuff bag with the drawstring looped and tightend around the top. A waterproof bag would still maintain weatherproofness, or a garbage bag inside the stuff bag.
This would be at the cost of security.

What campgrounds are you looking to ride to? If you get sick of the beach ones (Malibu, Doheny, or San Elijo), Silverwood Lake SRA at over 3000' in the Cajon Pass area has some nice Hike & Bike sites, plus a small camp store, and bike paths around the lake (heavily damaged by flash flooding when I went there years ago) Also, swimming in the lake is allowed and there's a nice beach at the camp store. It's thiirty-something miles from San Bernardino, which can be reached via Metrolink, and there are some short steep hills between I-15 and the lake. Also you can try and guess when you are crossing the San Andreas fault (hint: it's when you're still on the old Highway 66 segment) The fault is why there's a Cajon Pass in the first place, anyway, it's split a mountain range in two lengthwise.

Lash your tent, sleeping bag, and sleeping pad to the sides of the milk crate and/or the sides of the rack, with bungee cords. Put your other stuff in the milk crate.

Yes, get a 2 person tent, rectangular, free standing dome, with doors on the sides, not the ends. Get one with aluminum poles and clips instead of pole sleeves.

With an end entry tent, it's harder to get in and out of, and, when you're inside, laying down, all you see is tent.
The ease of entry/exit, view out, and ventilation is far superior on a rectangular dome with two doors.

Lash your tent, sleeping bag, and sleeping pad to the sides of the milk crate and/or the sides of the rack, with bungee cords. Put your other stuff in the milk crate.Yes, get a 2 person tent, rectangular, free standing dome, with doors on the sides, not the ends. Get one with aluminum poles and clips instead of pole sleeves.With an end entry tent, it's harder to get in and out of, and, when you're inside, laying down, all you see is tent.The ease of entry/exit, view out, and ventilation is far superior on a rectangular dome with two side doors.

Yes, get a 2 person tent, rectangular, free standing dome, with doors on the sides, not the ends. Get one with aluminum poles and clips instead of pole sleeves.



I know it's almost a religious thing around here, but I still maintain that free standing is not a requirement for a good tent. I've had a mix of free standing (or quasi-free standing, if it needs pegs for the rain fly, does it really count?) and non free standing tents, and the only real difference I've seen has been that free standing tents weight a little more all things considered. Ease of setup has more to do with the quality of the tent (I've found).

I've never camped in a place where I couldn't set up a non freestanding tent. Yes, that includes sand, yes it includes granite, there is always something to tie off too, or a rock or something.

If I were in your circumstances, I might just buy a 10x10 tarp at the hardware store, a length of mason's twine and spend about an hour in your backyard learning how to set it up. Unless bugs are an issue, a simple tarp will be cheaper than a tent, lighter than a tent, give you more room than a tent, afford you better views, and still be useful if you decide that you don't really like this camping thing, or if you really catch the bug and want to upgrade.

Have you considered renting the tent, sleeping pad and possibly even sleeping bag (although I probably wouldn't do the sleeping bag). REI does rentals. If you're just going for one night, maybe it makes more sense than dropping all this money all at once? It will give you some experience without the commitment.

As far as milk crate vs panniers, do a test ride before the trip to make sure. I think it would work, but it wouldn't be my preference.

Either way, have fun!

During the warmer months in Socal, the chance of rain is practically zero, so the only need for a tent or tarp is privacy. Even in the winter months, there's often weeks on end of warmer, dry weather. In that case, one can get by with maybe a mosquito net that hangs from a branch over the sleeping biker, and tucks under the ground sheet, just to keep out the mosquitos and those freaking black ants. This weighs almost nothing, and packs to the size of a softball. A space blanket makes a cheap and very lightweight ground cloth.

Try and make things do double duty. Use biking shoes that one can walk around in, rather than two sets of shoes. For towels, use a microfiber one from the 99 cents Only store, or use some Handy-wipes or a clone of the handywipe. The handy-wipes dry very quickly, and also use them to cushion things in the pannier, such as preventing a couple of nesting pots from clanging together. Don't bring a separate washcloth for the shower, instead use your dirty shirt and shorts. This will hand wash them at the same time as they clean your body.

Thanks for all the info so far. The group I know of that does occasional overnight bike camping trips i think mostly bikes from LA via PCH to some camground(s) in the upper Malibu area. But they also occasionally do other trips. If/when i have a tent i can also use it situations such as Solvang group bike rides where Id drive up but might be part of a group staying at local campgrounds there.

Id also be interested in any other local campgrounds where i could bike to overnight but from my googling so far there arent many options for campgrounds that offer bike camping within say 50 miles of Los Angeles. Obviously if I took a train somewhere from LA with my bike that would make the options much greater. I have read people do that, they can take a Amtrak or Metrorail train somewhere then bike out to start a bike camping trip that way.

Since i already like the use of a milk crate on a rear rack for local bike commuting, from the posts above it sounds like i could use the milk crate (and possible addition of front rack with Wald basket, ie see the Rivendell site) for all bike camping eqpt without needs for panniers. But i will see how i goes over time. My disinterest in panniers is that I dont want/cant use them for local use around town since i cant leave them on the bike for fear of theft. (Even if i got the Ortlieb panniers with the locking cable system that would not protect the contents from theft.) So if i buy panniers it would ONLy be for non local use. Whereas the milk crate and a front basket i could use for general local use also in addition to bike camping.

My disinterest in panniers is that I dont want/cant use them for local use around town since i cant leave them on the bike for fear of theft. (Even if i got the Ortlieb panniers with the locking cable system that would not protect the contents from theft.) So if i buy panniers it would ONLy be for non local use. Whereas the milk crate and a front basket i could use for general local use also in addition to bike camping.
Nothing wrong with using the crate/basket for short tours (or even some longer ones), but I think you're overly worried about theft of panniers. I use my bike for various shopping trips all the time and leave it locked up outside stores with the panniers attached and have never had anyone touch the panniers or their contents. Now my panniers are cheap ones from Nashbar, so I'm less concerned than if they were Ortliebs or Arkels, but my impression is that panniers are not something that thieves are likely to go after.

I do take out some items if I have something particularly valuable in a pannier when going into a store, but typically I may have stopped by a farmer's market first and then stop at a supermarket for other groceries. If somebody really wanted to steal the tomatoes or oranges in the pannier I'd probably figure they needed them more than I did - but again, it's never happened in many years of utility cycling.

Personally I've found the panniers to be far more practical than a basket or crate would be. They can carry most of my purchases inside (and hidden away if you're concerned about theft or robbery) and they leave the top of the rack free for additional items that don't fit inside and probably wouldn't fit in most baskets or crates (large pizzas, long items from a hardware store, etc.).

Have you considered renting the tent, sleeping pad and possibly even sleeping bag (although I probably wouldn't do the sleeping bag). REI does rentals. If you're just going for one night, maybe it makes more sense than dropping all this money all at once? It will give you some experience without the commitment.

As far as milk crate vs panniers, do a test ride before the trip to make sure. I think it would work, but it wouldn't be my preference.

Either way, have fun!

I like that idea. Especially the tent. I started bike camping with a 3-person REI tent. For some reason, I thought I needed something bigger... but then realized later that all that wasted space ended up being more pounds to drag around.

Re my concern of theft of panniers: the type of in-city use I am talking about would be, i.e.:
- M-F commuting to work in WLA and then leaving the bike parked on on the street, in approximately the same spot every day. (No way to lock it up inside at work.)
- bike rides all over the city of LA at all times including evenings, for example near a movie theater near USC. (Pretty high crime area and lots of students and others attuned to bikes.)
- group bike rides with many other riders ie over 100 on some rides who I do not know all who look at the eqpt on other bikes at the various stops.
I think odds are if i had something like a Ortlieb or Arkel pannier it wouldnt last a week on the bike. Again the Ortlieb models (at least some of them) can be cable-locked but that wouldnt stop someone from opening up the panniers and taking whatever is in them such as bike pump, tools, tubes, rain gear, shoes, anything else interesting (Ray Ban sunglasses), etc.or cutting the cable, which is very thin.
I can tell you in the last year that i had one incident of tube and tool kit stolen out of a small saddle bag one night when i left the bike locked to my bike rack on the back of my car, in front of my apt, after being too tired after a ride to take the bike off and garage it. Also for awhile I was driving about 1/2 mile away from work in WLA and biking the rest of the way in (because I didnt have parking in the building i work at at the time) and after doing that about 2 months one day my bike rack was stolen off of my car. It was a Yakama (sp?) and the thief had to cut through the nylon straps that went through to the trunk. I thought that rack was safe because I thought there was no way to remove it (short of cutting the straps and making the rack less useful) unless the trunk is opened. I could buy cheap panniers but then i wouldnt like them as much. So if i bought panniers for caompng or touring i would get good ones, probably ortliebs because of the cable lock system, and not keep them on my bike for local use and not keep anything of value in them parked in a city. I also had an incident where someone messed around with the seat and seat tube on a bike i have (that has a quick release) probably just to warn me how it easy it would be to have stolen it. For that reason i would never buy a brooks seat and I dont want quick releases on my seat tubes (most of my bikes dont have it but a couple of bikes do.)

So for the type of city riding i do, it is much better to put a messenger bag in a crate or basket for the ride and then take the bag with me off the bike.

I do take out some items if I have something particularly valuable in a pannier when going into a store, but typically I may have stopped by a farmer's market first and then stop at a supermarket for other groceries. If somebody really wanted to steal the tomatoes or oranges in the pannier I'd probably figure they needed them more than I did - but again, it's never happened in many years of utility cycling.

That isnt the type of riding I do. You arent bike commuting, not parking for long stretches in the same place day after day. Also your stops are short, not all day or hours long. Also you arent parking on group bike rides with 100+ bike riders all very attentive to what eqpt is on your bike (that they may want.) The type of bike rides I am talking about are urban group rides with a lot of young people none of whom i know, i do it for excercise, it isnt like the other group rides i do where there's a handful of people and it is the same people every Sunday and we stop for lunch.

That isnt the type of riding I do. You arent bike commuting, not parking for long stretches in the same place day after day. Also your stops are short, not all day or hours long. Also you arent parking on group bike rides with 100+ bike riders all very attentive to what eqpt is on your bike (that they may want.) The type of bike rides I am talking about are urban group rides with a lot of young people none of whom i know, i do it for excercise, it isnt like the other group rides i do where there's a handful of people and it is the same people every Sunday and we stop for lunch.
Actually I've done all that type of riding as well - I just mentioned the shopping trips since those were the ones where I'd have the most risk of theft of items in the panniers. When I commute I take the contents out of the panniers since I'd have my work stuff in a plastic bag inside a pannier and take it in with me. Since that's basically what you do now with items in your crate I'd think it would be the same if you used a pannier. And on group exercise or century type rides I don't normally have the panniers along since all I need to carry fits in a small saddlebag that stays on each of my bikes.

Thieves look for things that they can sell quickly and easily and AFAICT, they don't go after panniers. I've had bikes stolen (although fortunately not recently) and some thwarted attempts (evidenced by cut marks on my locks) and various bike components taken, but my panniers have never been touched.

I know it's almost a religious thing around here, but I still maintain that free standing is not a requirement for a good tent. I've had a mix of free standing (or quasi-free standing, if it needs pegs for the rain fly, does it really count?) and non free standing tents, and the only real difference I've seen has been that free standing tents weight a little more all things considered. Ease of setup has more to do with the quality of the tent (I've found).

I've never camped in a place where I couldn't set up a non freestanding tent. Yes, that includes sand, yes it includes granite, there is always something to tie off too, or a rock or something.

If I were in your circumstances, I might just buy a 10x10 tarp at the hardware store, a length of mason's twine and spend about an hour in your backyard learning how to set it up. Unless bugs are an issue, a simple tarp will be cheaper than a tent, lighter than a tent, give you more room than a tent, afford you better views, and still be useful if you decide that you don't really like this camping thing, or if you really catch the bug and want to upgrade.

I've got nothing against non-freestanding tents but if I were choosing between the two it would be freestanding.

I just got back from a tour to Jalama Beach were the ground is so hard that stakes are impossible.

I hear you about the concrete-like ground at beach sites; San Elijo was the same deal. A workaround is to put sand, rocks, or dirt in bags and tie the guy cords to them.

When you attach a shoulder strap to a pannier and take it inside with you, what's the difference between that and your messenger bag? That will eliminate any chance of theft. You don't have to commute with two panniers, one is enough, and you won't be unbalanced.

The problem I can see with the milk crate and things attached to its sides is that the weight would be high and away from the bike/rider center of gravity, possible leading to instability and high speed wobble. Ideally weight should be as low and as close to the crankset (center) as possible, at least get as much weight as possible between the axles for stability.

Group rides mean you really aren't concerned as much about hike & bike sites as a solo tourist. There are many county parks around the outskirts of LA, you'll just have to check out a guide such as "Tent Camping in Southern California".

Besides Silverwood Lake, Lake Perris SRA, south of Riverside, is a much flatter ride from San Bernadino or Riverside. It's a large reservoir that also allows swimming and has hike & bike sites. Being in the Inland Empire at lower elevation, the terrain around it is much more barren than the mountain campgrounds. There are also some non-state parks in the area, such as Lake Skinner. Past Lake Perris and Hemet, there's a big, big climb up to the state park campsite in Idyllwild, out of the valley heat and with big pine trees, also with hike and bike sites, but I don't know how adverse the group you camp with is to hills. Hills will sure make you appreciate a lighter load and double-duty gear!

When you attach a shoulder strap to a pannier and take it inside with you, what's the difference between that and your messenger bag? "


The differences are this:
1. I can use the messenger bag also on a bike I dont have a rack mounted to; I have a few bikes.
2. I can use the messenger bag when walking or traveling not by bike. The messenger bag is much more comfortable off the bike than a pannier with shoulder strap would be.
3. By using the messenger bag in a milk crate or basket, while on the bike, it gives me the option to pick up more stuff ie groceries to transport while riding, than would fit in the messenger bag. I could eithr put the new stuff AND the messenger bag in the crate or basket or else wear the messenger bag and put the new stuff, only, in the crate or basket.
So the messenger bag + crate or basket is more versatile than a pannier that converts to a shoulder strapped bag.

There are many county parks around the outskirts of LA, you'll just have to check out a guide such as "Tent Camping in Southern Salifornia".

What's the legality of bike/tent camping in a Los Angeles County Park? What I have done is googled bike camping and Los Angeles and only come up with very few campgrounds that seem to specifically permit camping in tents. Is it stealth camping (illegal) if you set up a tent in a county park? I think generally all parks close at dusk, but i have no experience camping.

I don't think you'll be allowed to set up a tent in a day-use park; too much competition with the homeless for that. I meant parks run by LA county that do have tent sites, such as this one: http://parks.lacounty.gov/Parkinfo.asp?URL=cms1_141677.asp&Title=Castaic%20Lake%20State%20Recreation%20Area

I don't think you'll be allowed to set up a tent in a day-use park; too much competition with the homeless for that. I meant parks run by LA county that do have tent sites, such as this one: http://parks.lacounty.gov/Parkinfo.asp?URL=cms1_141677.asp&Title=Castaic%20Lake%20State%20Recreation%20Area


Castaic Lake is about 47 to 51 miles from my apt in mid LA. Also it is probably pretty arduous and steep going into the Valley. I dont think i can do that trip by bike. I am really looking for something more flat and also more like 25 miles from mid LA. The camping ground(s) in N Malibu that i know some people go to are probably a lot closer than Castaic, and although hilly on PCH maybe not as hilly as to Castaic.

Im new at this and think a 51 mile route that is very hilly is too much for me to be able to do, on a loaded bike. Also without knowing the route or any guidebook I think I would most likely have a lot of trouble. Dont want to seem negative but I dont see a lot of closer bike camping options say within 25-30 miles from mid LA that also wouldnt be arduous climbs.

What i saw when i looked online was 1 or 2 camping grounds in the N Malibu area and one near Pomona County Fair grounds (that i think is run by a private company.

I think bike camping might be possible in Topanga Canyon park but i dont know.

The publicly operated campground for tent camping with restrooms (and showers) within an approx. 30 miles of mid LA that i have found is San Onofre, in the N. part of Malibu. That's where the group I know of goes bike camping. I read that Topanga has a campground for tent camping but it is what they call "primitive", no showers or restrooms.

Just picked up an ENO doublenest and a wallmart lightweight tarp as a rainfly for overnight trips. . . doing my first soon and hope all goes well : )

Am I the only one that thinks 70 bucks for a rainfly is retardedly expensive? I know I can't find that material elsewhere in tarp form, but the tarp I bought was 6 bucks (8x10 light duty tarp) and I imagine it's going to be just fine. The 6x8 was a little small for the hammock O:-)

Will have to figure out how to get those clips it came with off. . . they are half the weight of the hammock itself. Still with all that stuff it's about the same weight as a tent.

Gary, look at panniers you can take off when you stop, and worry, bring in with you ,
still not making it out of LA.

or a 2 wheel trailer to carry all your stuff , that you can detach and bring in with you.

If you can get well out of LA before you start riding , that would be good .. Bus and Amtrak train.

FYI:
Greyhound bus: bike has to be in a bag or box.
Amtrak: folding bike only, unless it is a special "coastliner" train. I have a folding bike and a bag for it, that I got to do some weekend trips by Amtrak or Greyhound, but wasn't necessarily planning to camp on those trips because it would require more transporting more eqpt. So with my bus or train trips i was thinking more of credit card camping but maybe i can find interesting campgrounds i could bike to after a train or bus trip. Since Id have the folding bike (an old West Marine that is a Dahon type of old bike) with no rack I'd have to figure out what to do about that. Id either need a rack on the folding bike with panniers or else some sort of small trailer that folds, maybe a Burly Travoy.

No folding bikes are needed, the Amtrack trains between San Diego and LA will take bikes without boxing; heck, it even turned out I could have started in San Diego and ended up in Redding, (almost to Oregon), for one of my tours without boxing or paying an extra fee. You or I could also do the same thing and end up in the Yosemite Valley via the Amtrack connecter bus, then stay in the almost-secret backpacker's campground behind the North Pine campground there...mmmm. All the Surfliner trains northbound to Santa Barbara will also allow roll-on bike service (the Surfliner's not a special train, it's the normal one that goes from SD to SB) If you wanted a longer flat ride, you could catch the train on Friday evening north to maybe Carpenteria, stay in the $10 (!) hike and bike site at the state beach there, then ride south (dead flat) and meet the group Saturday at the campsite in Malibu. Metrolink also allows bikes and would really expand your reach, since if you are looking for campsites near to LA city center, your choice is sadly limited.

Hopefully, if you increase your fitness level, the hills will become easier. I plan to do a mountain trip from San Diego tomorrow up to use the H&B sites at the Cuyamaca Rancho SP campsites (two campgrounds, 5 miles apart, at 4000 and 5000'. You can camp in the day use area for $5) I realize that I'm not in shape yet to do the full climb easily, so am going to spend a couple bucks on the public bus that goes halfway up to the Viejas Casino past Alpine at 2500'. At one time I was able to handle these mountains and the Sierra... :(

Also, you can also make very cheap plastic panniers that would hold your messenger bag. You could make them out of $3 wastebaskets, zip ties, and a nylon strap. Anybody that would steal those would be crazy. I have some very nice large Axiom panniers, but decided to make some of my own cheapo 7-liter plastic panniers for an overnighter to San Elijo State Beach, between San Diego and Oceanside ($6 H&B sites, no picnic tables, so the panniers were used as chairs) I later added a vertical strap connecting the lateral strap near the bottom with the rack, just to hold the lids on in case they popped off. I have the light bulky stuff in the stuff sack and heavier items, such as any tools, netbook, etc., in the pannier's bottom. They take maybe 60 seconds to carve a slot with a Swiss army knife awl and attach with zip ties. A better method maybe to melt the slots with a heated screwdriver blade.

(also note the crazy 16 spoke front and 20 rear wheels. They haven't gone out of true or broke once in thousands of miles. Go figure)

http://41374c9a-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/stevosfilehideaway/Home/more-files/IMG_0048.JPG

Am I the only one that thinks 70 bucks for a rainfly is retardedly expensive? I know I can't find that material elsewhere in tarp form, but the tarp I bought was 6 bucks (8x10 light duty tarp) and I imagine it's going to be just fine. The 6x8 was a little small for the hammock O:-)

It depends. $10 will buy you a heavy tarp for your hammock. $70 will buy you a lighter, but still plenty durable tarp, and $250 will buy you a very light tarp (http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/hammock_tarps.shtml). The expensive ones will be lighter by a substantial amount, and pack smaller, but it's up to you if you really care.

I'd compromise with a rectangular Silnylon tarp in something like 9X9 (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___20069)(remember, squares are a special case of rectangle). For about $80 you get a good rain fly for your hammock, a good, light weight shelter for the ground, and something that is light enough to bring along in addition to a tent to provide added living space.

It depends. $10 will buy you a heavy tarp for your hammock. $70 will buy you a lighter, but still plenty durable tarp, and $250 will buy you a very light tarp (http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/hammock_tarps.shtml). The expensive ones will be lighter by a substantial amount, and pack smaller, but it's up to you if you really care.

I'd compromise with a rectangular Silnylon tarp in something like 9X9 (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___20069)(remember, squares are a special case of rectangle). For about $80 you get a good rain fly for your hammock, a good, light weight shelter for the ground, and something that is light enough to bring along in addition to a tent to provide added living space.

I will definitely dish out some more when I go on a larger tour, but the 6 dollar tarp isn't very heavy overall. I could ditch the carabiner clips on the hammock and it would even out. I would say it takes up a lot of space but I feel better about a more durable tarp being out of the bag, so in actuality it gives me more room in my bags. roll it up and slap it on the back rack. I personally would love that 9x9, I simply can't justify the price. I'd rather spend it on food so I can tour more. : D

http://www.walmart.com/ip/General-Purpose-Tarp-8-x-10/16889152 I don't know why none of them are square, but I can deal with a little asymmetry. It does cause me to have to get a slightly larger tarp, but I can deal with that.

Will have my first night under it soon, but not travelling by bike. I'll see how it goes.

I was aware there are Amtrak trains that go from LA to SD; and LA to SB that you can take full size bikes on.
But at the time I was/still am interested in going to N Calif ie SF/ Berkeley. Most of the Amtrak trains do not go direct to SF or Oakland. You have to transfer to a bus in the SB area. I dont think it would be likely you could take a full size bike that is not boxed on the train + bus + train to get to SF or Oakland from LA via Amtrak. There are some trains that are direct I think they are called Coastliners but they are not as frequently scheduled and they cost more. I didnt find any leaving LA in evening on Fridays for example. So I concluded a much better and cheaper way to get to SF or Oakland on a Fri night from LA is the Greyhound Express bus. That requires you to have a bike either boxed or bagged.

So if you want to LA to SD; or LA to SB via Amtrak, maybe it could routinely be done with a full size bike that is not boxed. I am not sure. But I read elsewhere on this website that there is some issue where you have to take a bus right now in the middle of the LA to SD run that would likely interfere with getting an unboxed full size bike all the way to SD on Amtrak.

Only some Amtrak trains allow full size unboxed bikes. The schedule of these trains is not as frequent ie to N Calif as the rest of the trains. Also if there is a problem where they route you instead by bus, I am concerned that a full size unboxed bike wouldnt get on the bus, but I dont know.

I have no experience with bikes on trains but it is certainly safer with a folding bike because folding bikes are permitted on all Amtrak trains at all times. My plan to go to Oakland or SF with bike from LA is to take the Greyhound Express due to cost and direct route and time schedules. (This is another discussion other than my interest in overnight bike camping in the City of LA area, but Amtrak came up.)

[QUOTE=stevepusser;14719328]You or I could also do the same thing and end up in the Yosemite Valley via the Amtrack connecter bus,


What happens with your full sized unboxed bike loaded with panniers if you have to transfer to an Amtrak connector bus?

[QUOTE=stevepusser;14719328]You or I could also do the same thing and end up in the Yosemite Valley via the Amtrack connecter bus,


What happens with your full sized unboxed bike loaded with panniers if you have to transfer to an Amtrak connector bus?

When I've done it, I had already boxed the bike in San Diego or LA's Union Station, but it turns out the connector bus driver allowed unboxed bikes (at your own risk). This was the case for the bus from LA to Bakersfield, also the bus from Stockton to Redding. The panniers must be removed from the bike, boxed or unboxed, and either stowed with the rest of the bags in the luggage compartment, or in the overhead storage in the bus. On the train, the overhead storage is big enough for even really large panniers.

To get to the Bay Area from LA, the fastest and cheapest train route is to take the connector bus to Bakersfield, then get on the San Joaquin (with roll-on bike service) to Martinez, which I guess is in the Oakland area. The Amtrak bike boxes are a lot easier to get bikes into than a Greyhound-size bike box; all you have to do is remove the pedals and turn the handlebars sideways. I've always sprung for a box for the protection; but Amtrak will warn you that they don't guarantee your bike will make the transfer if boxed (unless you go down and make sure), but they've always made the transfers OK when I've done it on even their busiest day of the week (Fridays).

My idea is to bike from home to a bus or train station, then arrive at a destination then do it in reverse. So this doesnt allow for boxing up a bike. There is no guarantee any station will have a bike box available. (I was in the Greyhound station in Oakland about 4 months ago and a guy with a mountain bike was told he couldnt put the bike in the cargo hold without a box and they have no boxes for sale.) So what you are saying is that on Amtrak you can probably get away with a bike unboxed on the connector buses but there is no guarantee. And there is no guarantee the Amtrak station will have a bike box for sale, some do, some don't and they can run out. Also there is the cost of the boxes-- I think it is $25 a box so if i were to bike to the Amtrak station buy a box for the outgoing train and then bike around at my destination, then i would need to buy a box for the return trip also. That's $50 for 2 boxes. It seems to me the only sane approach is a folding bike with a bag it fits in, so it can go on any Amtrak train or any Greyhound bus at any time. Thats why i got a folding bike (used) with a bag ($40) to put it in. I havent made any trips with it but i hope to do so soon. On these weekend trips out of town i wasnt planning on camping (just fixated on figuring out how to travel with the bike alone) but i can think about that too. Maybe a Burly Travoy, i dont know. Maybe i can mount a rack or a large saddlebag kind setup on the folding bike, I havent gotten that far yet.

The last time I bought a bike box at an Amtrack station was maybe 3-4 years ago, and they were $7, or they had some used ones that other bikers had left behind for free. One time I got on the southbound train in Modesto, and wanted to bike the box up and put it in baggage to San Diego, but the station had no boxes. They called ahead down the line and got one for me from another station to put the bike in as we rolled south. Major stations such as San Diego and LA keep a good supply of boxes on hand, and it costs nothing to call the station beforehand to make sure.

What I'm saying is that in California, in my experience, the Amtrak crews have been very accommodating and helpful with transporting my bike; whereas the few times I've taken the bus have been rather unpleasant & more expensive, as well as a pain to pack the bike. I don't know why you're coming up with these imaginary barriers such as the $25.00 box; I'm sure many more CA Amtrak users will have the same good reports (barring the horror stories of delays due to accidents and suicides jumping on the tracks) The best thing is to try a short trip north or south of LA on Amtrack or Metrolink and ride home; it's fun!

When you attach a shoulder strap to a pannier and take it inside with you, what's the difference between that and your messenger bag?I'll add one in addition to those OP already listed: commuting panniers get dirty.

My Ortliebs are close to 15 years old and it shows. The only way I can carry them without worrying about my clothes is by pointing the rear panel away from me. And then I have to worry about everyone else's clothes, furniture etc. I admit I could have done a better job keeping them clean to begin with, but even then it's not always possible/practical to wipe them down completely before carrying them away.

OP, it seems to me too that you can use the equipment you have now. If the milk crate and front basket are not waterproof, get a couple of dry sacks for your stuff, or pack everything in plastic bags. And have fun!

--J

Here's another way to get up into beautiful touring country without boxing your bike: Take Metrolink up to Lancaster, then use the bike rack on the Eastern Sierra Transit bus to get up to Mammoth Lakes ($40)

http://estransit.com/pages/bus-routes/crest-mammoth-lancaster.php

Note that some routes run all the way up to Reno.

This is my overnighter setup. Also had small backpack with hydration bladder, couple of tarps (one for above sleeping bag, one for below), tools, tube and a couple of bungees.

Works fine in low bug count areas. Would definitely want a tent in heavily bugged areas.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5032/7224094654_64da79343c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/7224094654/)
P5170149 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/7224094654/) by Lester Of Puppets (http://www.flickr.com/people/lesterofpuppets/), on Flickr

This is my overnighter setup. Also had small backpack with hydration bladder, couple of tarps (one for above sleeping bag, one for below), tools, tube and a couple of bungees.

Works fine in low bug count areas. Would definitely want a tent in heavily bugged areas.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5032/7224094654_64da79343c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/7224094654/)
P5170149 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/7224094654/) by Lester Of Puppets (http://www.flickr.com/people/lesterofpuppets/), on Flickr

Boy, if you had a down bag, you could get it really small and fit it under the bars, along with a hanging mosquito net too (pyramid shaped or something) to handle the bugs. The only reason I take my tent to the beach here in California is to keep out those freaking tiny Argentine black ants, which will get in through the tiniest seam or fold under your sleeping pad, then proceed to explore your whole tent plus your body. The only thing that slows them down is cooler weather.