Touring - Single touring using tandem , WHY NOT ??

Single touring using tandem , WHY NOT ??

Seems like the problem with light wheels, front panniers and short wheelbase of the classic diamond bike can be solved by the tandem frame. It is much longer, have heavy duty wheels etc. I am planning on building hybrid , or 1 1/2 long frame with two seat tubes and two bottom brackets , rear bottom bracket will be used for stand. Front wheel will be 36 hole rims with dynamo/brake hub, rear wheel will be 48 heavy duty spokes soldered. Frame will have 5 couplings for easy disassembling, instead of panniers I will have braze ons for two , airline 62 linear inches legal size aluminum cases.

Single touring using tandem , WHY NOT ??


I've seen a great big four wheeler normally powered by four people pedaling, why not go the whole hog & use one of those? :lol:

Uh, what am I missing here?
Why would you want to carry the weight of an extra crankset, saddle, bars, etc. if you are riding solo?
If you want a long wheelbase, just get a Surly Big Dummy or any other cargo bike.

who needs extra crankset, saddle , bars , etc. ???
1 and 1/2 longer frame will need only 1 and 1/2 longer chain
i would like to have LONGER wheelbase than Surly

Sound a bit like you are trying to create an Xtracycle? http://www.xtracycle.com/

^ I liked the "Long John" - "steers like a boat." + 1 to that manufacturer for honesty.

OP, this might sound crazy, but couldn't you just make a custom built trailer that would allow your bike to be more maneuverable and save weight? If you have the mechanical skills to build that tandem frankenstein I'm guessing you could build one heck of an aluminum trailer.

I'm presupposing here you only want the longer wheelbase on the bike for cargo carrying capacity, though. Maybe you just want a bike that handles like a pig on roller skates.

well, everybody is PROPOSING same old same old SOLUTIONS
I do not want trailer ( extra wheel, extra weight, extra volume)
I do not want to have anything weighting down front wheel

The idea is to have TWO hard cases with 62 linear inches for air travel)
secure them to the frame in lieu of panniers ( that is why the long wheel base)
Frame also will have to withstand extra weight of water for stealth camping , multi fuel stove with large tank , to avoid frequent refueling

sound a bit like you are trying to create an xtracycle? http://www.xtracycle.com/

yes and no :):)

xtracycle is just "adaptor" or extension for regular bike with regular diamond geometry

well, everybody is PROPOSING same old same old SOLUTIONS
I do not want trailer ( extra wheel, extra weight, extra volume)
I do not want to have anything weighting down front wheel

The idea is to have TWO hard cases with 62 linear inches for air travel)
secure them to the frame in lieu of panniers ( that is why the long wheel base)
Frame also will have to withstand extra weight of water for stealth camping , multi fuel stove with large tank , to avoid frequent refueling

Well since you've made up your mind, OP, why are you asking people's opinions?

Well since you've made up your mind, OP, why are you asking people's opinions?
Please do not get offended

well
I need a good argument WHY NOT
but not the same solutions from the past

from my perspective having double purpose hard case air travel / panniers is very valuable feature
light load on front wheel is great for steering
second bottom bracket is ideal for steady kick stand
extra length translate to larger volume behind pedals and space for water etc

You can tour on anything, including a tandem with one person. However, the question is, why? You can always put heavy duty tires on a regular bike, you don't need front panniers (I've never used them), and I don't see where a "shorter" wheelbase has anything to do with touring. And if you have to get repairs on such a modified bike, you might have problems getting someone to fix it for you.

What you need more than anything else is a bike that feels comfortable to day after day after day....

From the sounds of things - not quite a tandem since its not intended for two riders. More like a custom bike using a stretched frame. Could be interesting!

Sounds crazy to me, but I'm not going to be the one pushing the pedals, so who cares what I think. Post up some pictures when you are done.

From the sounds of things - not quite a tandem since its not intended for two riders. More like a custom bike using a stretched frame. Could be interesting!

more or less :):)

Sounds crazy to me, but I'm not going to be the one pushing the pedals, so who cares what I think. Post up some pictures when you are done.

:):)
how crazy ???

crazy hahahaha
or crazy hihihihihi

WHY NOT use longer bike and save front ???

You can tour on anything, including a tandem with one person. However, the question is, why? You can always put heavy duty tires on a regular bike, you don't need front panniers (I've never used them), and I don't see where a "shorter" wheelbase has anything to do with touring. And if you have to get repairs on such a modified bike, you might have problems getting someone to fix it for you.

What you need more than anything else is a bike that feels comfortable to day after day after day....
well
what do you do in far away land with your two
air line traveling cases 26X26X10 ???
and why do You need panniers there
when you have to dispose hard cases
which were used to transport panniers

For anything above very low speeds, bicycles turn by leaning the whole frame. The cyclist starts the lean by trying to turn the bars in the opposite direction from the intended turn, in response, the whole bike leans in the opposite direction. Put an experienced cyclist on an off-road trike for the very first time, and his reflexes will be all wrong in turns, and he may crash (speaking from experience here!)

Basically a load on the front wheel just makes it harder to steer at very low speeds

sounds a bit eclectic,think i understand the concept - op wants to be fully self supported includingbike transport luggage. i've cycled solo on our tandem a few times - not the best balanced rides. the stretched frame concept makes more sense in terms of bike handling and performance. the only serious why not ? weight - the fully loaded bike and stuff would be pretty heavy - it would be a beast to slog up hill or into a wind.

You'll figure out why not when you try touring with the thing. A good rule of thumb is that everyone else is not stupid.

Please do not get offended

well
I need a good argument WHY NOT
but not the same solutions from the past



First of all, I don't oppose your idea. Build it. As far as "why not" here's all I've got:

1. You need to keep the rear wheel weighted on a tandem. Otherwise, when you apply your front brakes, your rear end will literally fly by you in mid-air. I know you are intending to keep all your gear over the rear wheels, but that may not be enough if you don't have great braking skills when the feces hit the blades on a steep descent. (Hint: if the rear wheel is losing traction, the front brake is working too hard.) You are also giving up the technique of getting your bum behind the saddle to increase rear wheel load for improved braking.

2. It sounds like you are going for a heavy rig. In my neck of the woods (Pacific Coast), speed equals safety. Dragging extra pounds up hills means having more motorists pass which increases the odds of winning the lottery. If you're riding where that's not an issue, have at it. Besides, lots of slow riders tour here and we only have a handful of lottery winners each year.

..... A good rule of thumb is that everyone else is not stupid.
sure

WHY NOT ??
weight ??
how many #s
is extra seat tube & bottom bracket & half top tube & half down tube & 50% more chain

First of all, I don't oppose your idea. Build it. As far as "why not" here's all I've got:

1. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

2. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.

thanx

PS - the contraption won't be full tandem size

I used to commute (solo) on my tandem. It's a really great bike for solo use, very solid and dependable. The only thing is, if someone yells, "you forgot somebody" one more time I might try to kill them

First of all, I don't oppose your idea. Build it. As far as "why not" here's all I've got:

1. You need to keep the rear wheel weighted on a tandem. Otherwise, when you apply your front brakes, your rear end will literally fly by you in mid-air.

That certainly hasn't been my experience in many miles of riding our tandem solo without any extra weight on the rear of the bike. The tandem used to be our commute vehicle so if I ever needed to go somewhere during the day I'd hop on the tandem by myself. Applying the rear brake could be an issue since it would skid rather easily with the light load on that wheel, but using the front brake was never an issue. Also used the tandem to climb some particularly steep (but fairly short) hills since the low gearing on the tandem let me pedal up them whereas I'd be forced to walk on my solo road bike. Definitely had to use the front brake a lot on the way down - but again, it was never an issue and the tandem handled fine (although a bit truck-like) when ridden solo.

To the OP:
I know it's been done before since I remember reading an article about someone setting out on a long (round the world?) tour who was choosing to use a tandem for its ability to carry lots of luggage within the long wheelbase. But I wouldn't choose to use your proposed design. For one thing the extra weight burden seems excessive - the tandem itself probably adds 15 or more pounds compared to an equivalent solo bike, the large number of couplers add some more pounds, and the two hard cases plus packing material add still more. So you're probably at least 50 lbs. over the typical bike tourer.

And then there's the bulk of the package you're proposing. A tandem is trouble enough to transport, but consider if you ever find the need to hitch a ride or take public transit with a tandem plus two full-size suitcases (yes you could do the disassembly and packing - but in my experience with other's coupled bikes that's a rather lengthy procedure - and you still have two big and heavy pieces of luggage to deal with plus whatever you now have to carry the rest of your gear).

An alternative to fully self-contained touring incl. airline luggage would be Bike Friday's system using a folding bike that tows a trailer frame on which you carry a regular Samsonite suitcase with your gear inside. Ride to the airport and the bike and trailer frame fit inside the suitcase after you take out the gear and pack it in your carry-on duffel. That way you only have one big suitcase, the bike packs more quickly (and folds enough for transit systems in only a few seconds), and the trailer disconnects quickly leaving you with a nice riding and maneuverable bike for city sightseeing when you stop somewhere for a day or two. Or, if you really don't want a trailer then something like a Big Dummy gets you the long wheelbase and luggage carrying capacity but without going all the way to a tandem length and weight.

It sounds like you want one of Avorn Cycles touring longtails (http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/?page_id=10).

Yeah, Arvon, and to some lessor extent Sakkit. Arvon is a tandem guy who used to do long miles picking up his partners, solo on the tandem. He found he liked riding the bike solo. So from that he adapted the touring bikes he made. It isn't a overbuilt as an extracycle, or Big Dummy. Arvon is pretty cool, he makes the best designed racks I have seen. I like his long bikes, and some of his hubs are pretty interesting also. Hard to get anything out of though. Made a number of attempts and did not get responses. But others here have his bikes, so it is apparently possible.

Sakkit is more just a case of realizing current stay lengths on touring bikes are still too close to irrelevant road paradigms, which obviously work, but would be better off a little longer. There is only upside to longer stays, at least on the tar.

Single touring using tandem , WHY NOT ??

It sounds like a solution looking for a problem to solve. I don't get what you are saying with regard to the reason for doing this.

Light wheels? The same wheels fit on any length bike. Use the ones that are appropriate for the load you are carrying.
Front panniers? How are they a problem that needs to be solved?
Short wheelbase? Once it is long enough for heel clearance I don't see why you want to go longer.

You don't state anything that sounds like a good reason for this proposal. Would I be correct in assuming that the purpose is to carry a lot more stuff than a normal touring bike typically carries? I am guessing this must be the case. If so why do you want or need to carry so much?

I know that my experience is that comfort and riding enjoyment increased greatly for me as I took less and less stuff and rode a sportier bike. If I was forced to tour on a rig like you suggest, I would give up touring. Not everyone shares my preference for a very minimally loaded touring style, but it sounds like you are going pretty far to the opposite extreme. Two 62" cases is something in excess of 100 liters and most of the cases I have seen in that size weigh something like 13 pounds each. Do you really want or need to carry that much? A lot of folks tour with about as much total gear weight as the two empty cases will weigh and some with substantially less.-

If you have you done some fairly extensive touring and are basing your ideas on actual touring experience, then go ahead and do what you are suggesting, but it doesn't sound like a good idea at all to me. Otherwise I suggest doing some touring with a more moderate load and seeing if you really need so much carrying capacity.

I'm sure that not long ago I read of a guy doing exactly this. South America I think. The thing is - he picked up people to ride stoker with him as he went along. Some people for an hour, some for a week. A brave but fantastic way to travel I thought.

Maybe the title was a little misleading. The OP doesn't plan on building a full size tandem - if you read the initial posts carefully he plans on cutting up, shortening, and modifing a tandem frame to integrate some components in a single person vehicle that will give him some advantages.
(1) A strong spot to mount a central stand - always a problem on a touring bike.
(2) A secondary mounting point to mount his oversize shipping cases, which will be doubling as paniers.

It might not be conventional - but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Something like this?
http://surlybikes.com/uploads/bikes/geo_bigdummy_2011.gif

The Surly Big Dummy Cargo Bicycle (http://surlybikes.com/bikes/big_dummy)

Why not?
1. Extra expense
2. Extra weight
3. Overkill. Like using a shotgun to swat at gnats.
4. Climbing hills would be a beast

The only "advantage" that I can see is that you could pick up hitchhikers.

:):)
how crazy ???

crazy hahahaha
or crazy hihihihihi

Both. Make sure you bring along a good pair of walking shoes.

yes and no :):)

xtracycle is just "adaptor" or extension for regular bike with regular diamond geometry


xtracycle solves the root issue that you speak of by letting you run your full touring load on the rear of the bike and NOT use any front panniers. The big dummy does the same.

Maybe the title was a little misleading. The OP doesn't plan on building a full size tandem - if you read the initial posts carefully he plans on cutting up, shortening, and modifing a tandem frame to integrate some components in a single person vehicle that will give him some advantages.
(1) A strong spot to mount a central stand - always a problem on a touring bike.
(2) A secondary mounting point to mount his oversize shipping cases, which will be doubling as paniers.

It might not be conventional - but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

1 absolutely
2 correct

:):)

Something like this?
http://surlybikes.com/uploads/bikes/geo_bigdummy_2011.gif

The Surly Big Dummy Cargo Bicycle (http://surlybikes.com/bikes/big_dummy)

well

something similar

The starting point was the size of the airline suitcase limits , which establish the size of luggage/panniers.
Then the wheelbase is determined by that as well as height of the frame.
Having two seat tubes with partial top & down tubes makes natural extension of diamond frame, from the mechanical / stress point of view. It also allows to use two sets of regular lugs to build this longER bike.

As a tandem captain I often refer to our bike as "the truck", what the OP is proposing is to build a truck for a single rider. Pros & Cons? If you build it right you will have a nice truck to haul 150-200 lbs of gear, but it will ride like a tandem with a stoker who isn't pedaling.

well
what would be the good proportion of weigh of the rider
vs. the total weight of bike/panniers/camping equipment / H20 etc

I would say that 180# guy, should be able to ride comfortably with 90# if not 120#
with improved / correct gearing .

...... If you build it right you will have a nice truck to haul 150-200 lbs of gear, but it will ride like a tandem with a stoker who isn't pedaling.
:thumb:

Why not?
1. Extra expense
2. Extra weight
3. Overkill. Like using a shotgun to swat at gnats.
4. Climbing hills would be a beast

The only "advantage" that I can see is that you could pick up hitchhikers.

1 goes without saying
2 not much (proportionally)
3 but solves a lot of problems
4 well :):) , after the hill , you always go DOWNHILL

You'll figure out why not when you try touring with the thing. A good rule of thumb is that everyone else is not stupid.

I just bought you a virtual beer. Enjoy!

Why not?
1. Extra expense
2. Extra weight
3. Overkill. Like using a shotgun to swat at gnats.
4. Climbing hills would be a beast

The only "advantage" that I can see is that you could pick up hitchhikers.

1 goes without saying
2 not much (proportionally)
3 but solves a lot of problems
4 well :):) , after the hill , you always go DOWNHILL

I just bought you a virtual beer. Enjoy!


ohhh
come on

seems like people do not take into consideration the "horse power" of the rider

counting 60# of load is different for 120# rider then for 180# rider

well
what would be the good proportion of weigh of the rider
vs. the total weight of bike/panniers/camping equipment / H20 etc

I would say that 180# guy, should be able to ride comfortably with 90# if not 120#
with improved / correct gearing .

It's pretty clear that you have never ridden a bike with 90-120lbs loaded on it. I can see you have this idea stuck in your craw, so how about this as a suggestion, put 100 lbs on a mtn bike with super low gearing and see how it is to ride...up hills too.
Then evaluated your project and go from there.

..... put 100 lbs on a mtn bike with super low gearing and see how it is to ride...up hills too.
Then evaluated your project and go from there.

well

again

working horse can pull wagon full of coal
but will not race like arabian horse

in my opinion the equation have a lot of variables
strength of the rider, tire size and pressure , gearing , desired average speed etc.

well
I should also mention
that building custom frame as 1.5 length with extra FRAME MODULE
would allow me to assemble regular size bike and store it inside single 62" case for air flight
Case / pannier would be left at the hotel during few days trip

Planning on hanging a sign on the back .. girlfriend wanted, no slacker-stokers, please?:rolleyes:

Planning on hanging a sign on the back .. girlfriend wanted, no slacker-stokers, please?:rolleyes:

hehehe

girlfriend which likes riding without seat ???

it must be needy one :):)

I wish you all the best with your project.

Why not? The big flaw I see with your plan [while it would be a pretty cool design] is that you are focusing on making it easy for you/ the airlines to move the bike with you, but once you get to your destination you will be in a suffer fest -humongous 'touring' bike that will weigh a lot, heavy and metallic 'panniers', have to buy a lot of stuff upon landing [you had the bike in pieces in the containers with some of your stuff, the rest will have to come in a separate bag and probably a decent amount will need to be bought there], and if there is a problem on the road you need to abandon using your bike/ panniers until you can fix them

With most touring bikes they are made of a hefty steel tubing, and the triangle design is still around because it is tried and true, strong, dependable, and they are a solid piece so your frame shouldn't have a chance of coming apart [a hand built, frame that breaks down will NOT be as solid or as reliable, even if you are very very good at building bike frames, bolts and other things have a way of working their way out]. With traditional panniers a swatch of nylon, a sewing needle, a few feet of thread, and worst case scenario duct tape and one of your shirts will patch up most any issue you might have [a fiber/ press board case with thin gauge aluminum sheet metal on the outside that is held together with aluminum angle iron and rivits, with a cloth laid up interior -the most common construction I've seen for such cases- is not conceivably 'fixable' by yourself -you would need to find some sheet metal, a drill, pop-rivits, a rivit tool, and probably some other tools should the cases have a bolt pull through and drop the case]... IMO a heavy/ large bike and awkward 'panniers' to make it easy on the TSA and the airlines, that's going about it wrong, you should make it as hard on them as possible so they come up with better ways to accommodate cyclists



IMO you would be best served by packing relativly light [you can still have a lot of the provisions and creature comforts, just not all of them], a 'traditional' touring frame with a longer chain than a typical bike, and a rear rack that keeps the panniers far enough back [using panniers properly you should not have and issue with heal strike], then a set of decent panniers and a handle bar bag [easy access to stuff on the road], and using a large 'hocky' type duffel bag to store your pannires and some of your bike in -like the fork- and then another bag for the bike [or use a bike box that the airlines should have/ loan to you -you would have to figure out what your options are with that]... and I would consider a front rack and low rider bags as it is stable, shouldn't really change handling in a bad way [you are traveling mostly in a straight line, not weaving in and out of traffic in a crowded city, so the dampened steering should help if anything], plus it moves a portion of the weight onto the front wheel.


If you decide to go with your plan, post tons of pictures. Best of luck!
PS: If I were you I would do extensive sketching and planning of all the parts and how they will fir together before putting tools to metal, once you start cutting into an existing frame you don't want to be changing your mind!


EDIT: also, take the above suggestion and completely LOAD UP an existing bike [grab all the ratchet sets and wrenches you have that will fit in your panniers, then add some stuff strapped to the top of the rack] then try tackling a 20+ mile ride around you [preferably a route with some hills]. If you don't have a rack or panniers, then go out and buy a decent set [I]immediately and start training with them. if you haven't been moving with a loaded bike at all, I highly doubt you have the legs to move your envisioned beast far without some major complaints by you and your body [unless you are currently a semi-pro racer that has been doing so for years]. Its all about training and getting your body adapted to a different load, you will want at least a few months of constant moving with a moderate load, if you don't do it, I suspect a sufferfest is in store for you [even if you are moving at just 10mph, and are 'content' with that]... If you don't have panniers, and absolutely refuse to go and buy them, the easiest way to replicate its effect is to set one brake pad on the rear to constantly rub pretty well on the rim [or just lightly lock up the rear brakes], go for a 20+ mile ride and see how it goes!

.....

If you decide to go with your plan, post tons of pictures. Best of luck!
PS: If I were you I would do extensive sketching and planning of all the parts and how they will fir together before putting tools to metal, once you start cutting into an existing frame you don't want to be changing your mind!
well

the first step / prototype is going to be two frames of trek 820
one is 21" and will be the front part
another is 19.5" and will be cut ~ 10" at top and down tube
Oversize road lugs from nova will be attached to remaining tubes
Seat tube of front frame will be partially cut and retrofitted with steel tube
which OD is equal to ID of installed Head Tube set of the rear frame
All the angles will match perfectly.
Steerers of front frame will cut down and be brazed to the down tube of rear frame