Bicycle Mechanics - Wheel Sits Too Close to Chain stay and other Maladies

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Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some insight on a few things:

First, I've noticed that the rear wheel on my '86 Voyageur sits precariously close the drive-side chainstay while I can get almost my whole pinky between the wheel and the left chainstay. I've looked to see if could align or adjust via drop-out adjustment screws, but this frame has none. Also, the dropouts are vertical, if that is pertinent information. I've got a few pictures of everything if need be. What can I do to make sure the wheel sits straight?

Second, my rear derailleur cage also sits very, very close to the spokes. I've checked to see if the hanger is bent, but it appears everything is ok. When on the largest gear, the hanger sits within 5mm or so of the spokes. It's a little worrying to me.

I should also say that this isn't the original rear wheel. Someone replaced the OEM wheel with an Araya that has a 6 speed freewheel on it instead of the 5 speed that was stock. Would this create any spacing issues or cause any of the issues I have?

Common Hub Specs for Freewheel Type Hub

Dimension A = Freewheel Stop to End of Locknut
Dimension C = Outside Locknut to Outside Locknut


Regular Spacing

5-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm A = 29.00mm
6-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm A = 35.00mm (C = 125.00 - 127.00mm is optional)

Narrow Spacing - Road

6-speed C = 120.00-122.00mm OR 125.00-127.00mm A = 31.00mm
7-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm OR 130.00mm A = 36.00mm
8-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm OR 130.00mm A = 40.50mm (Not the best to go with...)

Narrow Spacing - MTB

7-speed C = 125.00-127.00mm (Not the best to go with...) OR 130.00-135.00mm A = 39.00mm
8-speed C = 130.00-135.00mm A = 40.50

Be aware that very old frames from the 50's and 60's often have dropout faces that are so large that the smallest outermost cog and chain will be contained within - i.e., spacing to 130mm for 8/9/10 has a high success rate for chain clearance near the seat stay.

Be aware that relatively newer frames from the 90s onward have stays that approach the OUTSIDE of the dropouts - i.e., they're offset to the outside. This creates room for 8/9/10 setups while providing chain clearance for the chain and seat stay while the chain is on the smallest cog.

Be aware however, that many entry to mid-range frames in the 80s had small dropouts combined with stays that hit the dropouts inline - not offset to the outside. Spreading to 130mm for 8/9/10 setups is not guaranteed to work - you need to test the clearance between the seat stay and the chain while the chain rests on the smallest outermost cog.

=8-)

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the fact that someone put a 6 speed freewheel with its corresponding sized hub, this is what causes the spacing to be off?

If the old hub was a 5-speed hub and meant solely for a 5-speed freewheel - not a modern day Ultra/Narrow 6-speed freewheel - you'll have a situation where the chain will reside 2mm closer to the seat stay than it should.

If the old hub was spaced for an Ultra/Narrow 6-speed freewheel and you put an old regular spaced 6-speed freewheel on it - you'll have a situation where the chain will reside 4mm closer to the seat stay - assuming it's not scraping the seat stay already.

=8-)

Dimension A is the key - that determine what freewheel can be used - it's the industry's way of saying:

"Here's what will fit on the hub, clear the seat stay chain-wise AND keep the chain line somewhere near the middle of the freewheel."

=8-)

I can't see anything wrong based on your pictures. (you've got 5 pictures of your QR lever) I assume you mean that the tire is almost rubbing one side of the frame ?
The wheel spacing is not affected by the hub size. Usually, the problem is caused because the rim is not centered between the hub locknuts. So it's a little to the left or right. If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?

Sometimes a bent frame can be the cause, but much less common that an uncentered rim.

As for the derailleur, I think you mean the "cage" is 5mm from the spokes. The "hanger" is the part of the frame the derailleur bolts to. As long as it doesn't hit the spokes when shifted completely on the largest cog, you are probably ok. If your bike gets dropped or crashed on the drive side, check for damage and that the gears are still good before riding. If something's bent, you could then end up with a derailleur in the spokes ... which is not fun.

I can't see anything wrong based on your pictures. (you've got 5 pictures of your QR lever) I assume you mean that the tire is almost rubbing one side of the frame ?
The wheel spacing is not affected by the hub size. Usually, the problem is caused because the rim is not centered between the hub locknuts. So it's a little to the left or right. If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?

Sometimes a bent frame can be the cause, but much less common that an uncentered rim.

As for the derailleur, I think you mean the "cage" is 5mm from the spokes. As long as it doesn't hit the spokes when shifted completely on the largest cog, you are probably ok. If your bike gets dropped or crashed on the drive side, check for damage and that the gears are still good before riding. If something's bent, you could then end up with a derailleur in the spokes ... which is not fun.

We really could use a photo from the back that shows the derailleur, freewheel, right dropout and chain/seatstay in one straight on shot.

=8-)

When switching a wheel set from one bike to another I have often just put a bottom bracket spacer or two behind the freewheel... Its a quick but dirty shortcut...

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We really could use a photo from the back that shows the derailleur, freewheel, right dropout and chain/seatstay in one straight on shot.

=8-)


As in looking directly at the side of the bike? I just took a few looking down into the derailleur, freewheel and right drop out.

When switching a wheel set from one bike to another I have often just put a bottom bracket spacer or two behind the freewheel... Its a quick but dirty shortcut...

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How does putting a spacer behind a freewheel solve the problem if the freewheel is already putting the chain up against the seat stay?

Quick and dirty shortcuts are nice IF they're not being used to hide an underlying issue.

=8-)

Yep, solves one problem, creates two more - cog close to dropout/stay and poorer chainline with small chainwheel. If it is doable it's of course important to readust the derailleurs.

Here are a few more:

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As far as the hub spacing on the drive side looks, not too bad really. So long as the chain clears the seat stay when the chain is on the smallest cog - I don't see any worry at this point.

Do make certain the derailleur limit screws high and low are set properly - the last thing you want to do is throw the chain into the spokes - that'll cost you big time. While the chain guard offer protection against that - doesn't hurt to set the limit screws right as a matter of practice.

=8-)

That fender bolt looks like it might be a problem when the chain is on the smallest cog. I had a similar level of closeness and because my derailleur hanger got bent some bad shifts would occasionally cause the chain to go off the inside of the small cog. Then it wedges between that screw, the seatstay and the cog and can be a bear to get out on the road in the middle of nowhere. A properly adjusted derailleur should avoid that particular problem however.

The fender bolt was a temporary 'holding place' while I took off the fender so we could get a better look. I do appreciate the insight on that.

So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?

Post #12

=8-)

So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?

It doesn't have to be exact. Different people have their own definition of "good enough". If it's not rubbing, you can ride it, or try to improve it if you want.

The fender bolt was a temporary 'holding place' while I took off the fender so we could get a better look. I do appreciate the insight on that.

So all is well? It's totally OK that the wheel doesn't sit exactly in the center with equidistant width between each chainstay?

The hub seems OK, but still the rim can be nearer to one side if it isn't correctly dished. You should take the wheel off and check out with a dish stick.

Anybody can point where is the problem? I can't find anything weird with the bike. The other thing is that the bike is not a "high end colnago" and has some stuff here and there like for example the eyelets for the fenders in the rear like in the wrong place or maybe screws too long but can't see any problem with the bike. Even the dork wheel is still there.

Unless your chain is rubbing on the dropout or the chainstay when in the smaller cogs, then there is nothing to worry about from the spacing in the back.

If the tire is closer to one side than the other, the first thing you should do is remove the wheel, flip it around, and re-install it with the freewheel on the left and the chain riding on the axle of the other side of the wheel. If the tire is closer to the side that previously had lots of room, or more in the centre, then the problem is, at least in part, that your rim is not centred between the axle locknuts (out of dish). If the wheel is still close to the same chainstay as before, then the problem is the frame.

....If you take the wheel out, and put it in backwards, with the cogs on the wrong side, is the wheel still too close to the same chainstay, or is it now close to the other one ?...

That has my curiosity too-

I'll try this little check tomorrow.

BTW, this wheel is out of true and bent - I would not be surprised if it's not dished correctly.

Looking at the pix of the chainstay with the tire in...it looks like the frame was build for very skinny tires and the current wheel has some fairly fat tires on it. That will make any issues with dish, spacers, etc., more likely to be noticed. I would suggesting borrowing a known good wheel from someone (or may from a LBS) and slide it all the way in, hold it there or tighten the QR, and see if the rim is centered between the stays or pretty close to centered. Also be sure to take out or replace that fender mount screw with a shorter one before you end up with the chain jammed in between it and the cog as that will not be a good situation. Of course, follow with all the other replies about spacers and whatnot...

Add: Suggest getting one of those pie-pan protectors to put in behind the freewheel so you don't have to worry about the derailleur hitting the spokes. They look a bit Walmart-ish nay Sears-ish, but it beats walking home with skin missing and a parts bill to face.

Looking at the pix of the chainstay with the tire in...it looks like the frame was build for very skinny tires and the current wheel has some fairly fat tires on it. That will make any issues with dish, spacers, etc., more likely to be noticed. I would suggesting borrowing a known good wheel from someone (or may from a LBS) and slide it all the way in, hold it there or tighten the QR, and see if the rim is centered between the stays or pretty close to centered. Also be sure to take out or replace that fender mount screw with a shorter one before you end up with the chain jammed in between it and the cog as that will not be a good situation. Of course, follow with all the other replies about spacers and whatnot...

Spacing appears to be fine, see photo...

Dish is what others are having the OP check...he'll get back to us.

If a tire is too fat for stays - it'll be because of the tire and the stays, not because of dish or hub spacing.

Overlong fender mount screw has already been dealt with...

He already has a spoke protector...

Pay attention please...

=8-)

Second, my rear derailleur cage also sits very, very close to the spokes. I've checked to see if the hanger is bent, but it appears everything is ok. When on the largest gear, the hanger sits within 5mm or so of the spokes. It's a little worrying to me.

LOL. I wouldn't sweat it, man.

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That's a 2mm key. Mind you, that's a G3 wheel; the spokes aren't laced.

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This is more normal; 3-4mm. Handy how the spokes cross right about where the derailleur comes nearest the wheel, innit.

Hey man - Be sure to post your solution...!!!

Hey man - Be sure to post your solution...!!!

Solution? To what?

=8-)

Okay Gentlemen,

I flipped the wheel as everyone suggested and guess what? When its flipped with freewheel on the left side of the bike, the wheel/tire sit perfectly centered between the chainstays! what the heck does this mean?

I'd recheck a couple times to verify-

IF the same results, centered one way and not the other, something is bent.

"BTW, this wheel is out of true and bent - I would not be surprised if it's not dished correctly."----

What part of the bent rim are you using to check center?

All you are doing is checking to see if the wheel is properly dished - i.e., - that the rim of the wheel is centered between the lock nuts of the hub. A wheel that is properly dished will also by default end up centered between the chain stays when properly installed in the bike.

1. Normally done with a little more accuracy using a dishing tool.
2. Some folks do it by flipping the wheel - if the rim position stays the same after a flip - then it's close enough.

If the wheel is out of true to begin with, the LBS will true and dish for you if you bring it to them...

=8-)

Doesn't look too close at all.... My seven speed FW cogs (126mm rear spacing) might be even closer to the right stays than what you show. Just make sure that the chain does not contact the stays or dropouts at the smallest cog. Look for at least a minimum of slightly wider than an eight of an inch space. Such closeness should not be a problem as there should h=be hardly any flex between the hub and stays at that area, Bigger flex/movement can be expected more at the other end of the chain stays near the bottom bracket.

Chombi

I'd recheck a couple times to verify-

IF the same results, centered one way and not the other, something is bent.

"BTW, this wheel is out of true and bent - I would not be surprised if it's not dished correctly."----

What part of the bent rim are you using to check center?

There's a pretty good sized bend on one of the lips. I came to realize this when I was braking; the brake lever and brakes pulsate pretty badly when it goes over the bent part.


All you are doing is checking to see if the wheel is properly dished - i.e., - that the rim of the wheel is centered between the lock nuts of the hub. A wheel that is properly dished will also by default end up centered between the chain stays when properly installed in the bike.

1. Normally done with a little more accuracy using a dishing tool.
2. Some folks do it by flipping the wheel - if the rim position stays the same after a flip - then it's close enough.

If the wheel is out of true to begin with, the LBS will true and dish for you if you bring it to them...

=8-)

So what you're saying is that a bent, out of true wheel is probably not dished correctly at this point and is causing all of this?

Check using the same point in the rim when flipping...or if the wheel is pretty out of true - say more than a 1/8 inch each way - consider getting trued and the dish checked professionally anyway.

=8-)

Check using the same point in the rim when flipping...or if the wheel is pretty out of true - say more than a 1/8 inch each way - consider getting trued and the dish checked professionally anyway.

=8-)

Can you even get a bent wheel trued? I figured once it was bent, it was done for.

Can you even get a bent wheel trued? I figured once it was bent, it was done for.

Ever watch a desperate person "unbend" a wheel? Not something I'd recommend - but I wouldn't be surprised if a few members here have done it.

=8-)

I have ridden thousands of kms on wheels that I unbent (re-bent, actually). They are weak as a kitten, but they got through the brakes and held my weight.

If the wheel went from off to one side to centred when you flipped it then the offset was partially caused by the dish of the wheel and partially caused by the alignment of the frame. If it was entirely the wheel dish then the tire would have been an equal amount misaligned in the other direction. If it was entirely the frame alignment then the wheel would have been in exactly the same position after being flipped.

This is true, with two possible confusing factors I can think of: the wheel is warped and you are checking at different points such that it makes the measurement inconclusive (as others have said, mark a point on the wheel and check the alignment in the frame at that point with the wheel in properly and in flipped).. THe other thing that just crossed my mind: Is the axle bent? If the axle is bent such that the locknut on one side is off by a mm or two, it will greatly affect the alignment of the wheel at the rim, and if you are removing and reinserting the wheel you are likely not reinserting it so the bend int he axle is oriented the same way each time. THe solution: Replace the axle.

Okay Gentlemen,

I flipped the wheel as everyone suggested and guess what? When its flipped with freewheel on the left side of the bike, the wheel/tire sit perfectly centered between the chainstays! what the heck does this mean?As mentioned, compare the same spot on the rim between the chainstays when you flipped the wheel. This is a sign that your dishing is off; the rim isn't perfectly centered between the axle locknuts' outer surfaces. Not that terminal, a good truing will take out the wobbles and center the rim; provided there's no permanent kinks that can't be undone by adjusting spoke-tension.

The clearance is fine, I use the fattest training tyres possible on my race-bike. With new tyres, they actually rub both chainstays on the inside just slightly. I take out a sharp razor-blade and lightly skim the shoulder of the tyre to remove enough rubber to clear. About 1mm clearance is all that's needed to account for frame & wheel flex.

Also this picture shows that your B-tension screw on the RD is way too tight. Loosen it up all the way to bring the RD upper-pulley closer to the cogs for better shifting. And 5mm gap between the RD cage is more than enough. I actually mill down the freewheel seat on my wheels to push the cogs even closer to the spokes to reduce dish to get a stronger and more durable wheel. This places the RD cage just 1mm away from the spokes. No problems with this clearance in +30 years of riding.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=273570&d=1347998260

Okay Gentlemen,

I flipped the wheel as everyone suggested and guess what? When its flipped with freewheel on the left side of the bike, the wheel/tire sit perfectly centered between the chainstays! what the heck does this mean?

It means you should dish your wheel to sit in between the two positions, so that when you flip it, it's in the same place.

Then your wheel is good and it's showing you the wrongness of the frame.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to mention this when it comes up - remember to turn the spindle in the frame to rule out a bent spindle; if the wheel moves around as you turn it, you'll have to replace it before you proceed.


There's a pretty good sized bend on one of the lips. I came to realize this when I was braking; the brake lever and brakes pulsate pretty badly when it goes over the bent part.

You can usually fix a bend in the brake track fairly well with an adjustable wrench and some care.


So what you're saying is that a bent, out of true wheel is probably not dished correctly at this point and is causing all of this? Ideally the wheel should be true before you try to ascertain if it's dished properly, but if it's not too bad just give it a spin and look at the average.

Ok, excellent info so far; thanks!

A few mentions of 'bent frame' came up here. Is this something serious? What's bent? The chain stays? Can this be fixed?

Ok, excellent info so far; thanks!

A few mentions of 'bent frame' came up here. Is this something serious? What's bent? The chain stays? Can this be fixed?

Take it easy. Nobody said you have a bent frame.

Thread Summary:
1) Your wheel is a little bit off center
2) Your rim is a little bit bent based on one of your posts
3) The screw in the right dropout looks like it could rub against the chain on the smallest cog ... can't really tell

Go ride your bike, and get your wheel fixed if you feel like it.