Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area - Different Clinchers for the Track

Hi folks.
I currently am riding a FELT TK3 with the original Felt TkR-4 30mm deep aluminum aero track rims.

I'm thinking of swapping off the stock Vittoria Rubino Slick foldable 700cX23, with a max 125 PSI
and using Conti Supersonics. Of course I could not tell you if the Vittoria's are good or bad as this is my first track bike. On the road I can define the feel of asome tires
and of course the bike.

The question is whether I could safely use the 700 x 20 with a max 170 PSI or go to
the 700 x 23 with a max 145. I understood that some rims may not be designed for higher PSI.

As a a note I am about 210 lbs.

Of course I could get other clincher or tubular wheels but thought this was as good as any place to start.

Thoughts or suggestions

Hi folks.
I currently am riding a FELT TK3 with the original Felt TkR-4 30mm deep aluminum aero track rims.

I'm thinking of swapping off the stock Vittoria Rubino Slick foldable 700cX23, with a max 125 PSI
and using Conti Supersonics. Of course I could not tell you if the Vittoria's are good or bad as this is my first track bike. On the road I can define the feel of asome tires
and of course the bike.

The question is whether I could safely use the 700 x 20 with a max 170 PSI or go to
the 700 x 23 with a max 145. I understood that some rims may not be designed for higher PSI.

As a a note I am about 210 lbs.

Of course I could get other clincher or tubular wheels but thought this was as good as any place to start.

Thoughts or suggestions

Contact the manufacturer and ask if there are any limitations in regards to max pressure.

My suggestion is to go with 23c at 140PSI. I weigh more than 210 and use them at 140psi. I have a 23c Supersonic on my rear clincher training wheel right now.

The 20c is really narrow. I rode one for one track session and hated it.

The Supersonic is a great tire, but it's a "race tire" so it's fast, thin, and light. It won't last as long as other tires. You can find some high pressure tires that have more rubber on them.

Look into "Open Tubular" type tires or the Vredstein brand to name a few options.

Also, I remember Vittoria making a 320tpi tire that goes up to 150-160psi, too.

Contact the manufacturer and ask if there are any limitations in regards to max pressure.
I dd but no answer from them

Thanks, I did hear that they will not last that long but up here the season is shorter than other parts of the country so I do not expect more than a season. Then again I race once a week, sometimes twice.

Thanks, I did hear that they will not last that long but up here the season is shorter than other parts of the country so I do not expect more than a season. Then again I race once a week, sometimes twice.

Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.

Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.
Actually I did not make up my mind so I am all ears open wide and listening. I have found only great suggestions and comments here.
My comment on how long they last were just from commnets made on review sites.
I race at Kissena an outdoor venue so I'm all game for saving a few bucks and giving me a bit of an edge.

Thanks Robert

Who knows, by the time spring rolls in I may find some other wheels. In the meantime I will try to get faster and stronger. I haven't run into too many people who want to get slower and weaker

Supersonics aren't *that* thin. I got some for my ellipses (which are training only wheels) and they've lasted through a lot of track time and a lot of road and off-road time. My girlfriend uses the ellipses when she's riding her fixed gear on the road, and that frequently includes fire roads. They've been holding up fine for several thousand miles, I don't think either of us has ever gotten a flat on them.

The rim is probably your big limiting factor-- even the ellipse rims, which are among the beefiest track rims I've seen, are only rated to 145 or 150 or something. There's not a big advantage to super high pressures for clinchers, and some disdvantage- at high pressures you're going to increase your chance of blowing the bead off the rim going through a turn fast (seen it happen). You get a brief bead lift, the tube peeks out, explodes, then the bead sets back in place while you slide on the apron.

20 mm tires are only good for TTs. If you're riding a track with any banking at all you want something like a 23 and a round cross section.

Yeah people get way too into the idea of having the thinnest tire possible on the track. Leave that to the pros or big race days and keep it comfy for the weekly stuff.

I raced nothing but 19/20's until this year when I put some 23 supersonics on my ellipses. So good. I even lowered my psi to 120 max from my usual 130/135. Even better as our track is anything but smooth lately. So I'll echo the duck's sentiment. Supersonics, while light and thin, are definitely beefy enough for weekly racing.

I have a '12 TK3 and have been using the stock Vittoria Rubino Slicks w/o any issues. Of course, they're my first track use tire so I have nothing to compare them to. I'd like to pick up a set of the SuperSonics as I've heard nothing but great things about them. My big plan is to use the stock wheels for training and get a set of tubulars for racing.

The rim is probably your big limiting factor-- even the ellipse rims, which are among the beefiest track rims I've seen, are only rated to 145 or 150 or something. There's not a big advantage to super high pressures for clinchers, and some disdvantage- at high pressures you're going to increase your chance of blowing the bead off the rim going through a turn fast (seen it happen). You get a brief bead lift, the tube peeks out, explodes, then the bead sets back in place while you slide on the apron.


+1

I wouldn't even try running more than 145 PSI in a clincher... it's just asking for a rim failure IMO.

I would challenge that you would be any faster on 175 PSI than 145 anyway... maybe on an indoor board track, but that's it.

JMR

On a related note, I contacted Velocity about maximum tire pressure for their rims. They responded that I could go as high as the tire stated with no problem.

I would challenge that you would be any faster on 175 PSI than 145 anyway... maybe on an indoor board track, but that's it.


Clinchers already generally have lower rolling resistance at ~120 psi than most tubulars at ~170 psi (the glue can be very lossy). On anything but perfect concrete or a really smooth indoor track higher pressure is going to start being counterproductive because your tire won't flex enough to stay in contact with the track as you go over all the small features.

On a related note, I contacted Velocity about maximum tire pressure for their rims. They responded that I could go as high as the tire stated with no problem.

Really? I emailed Velocity here in Australia to enquire about the max pressure I could run on Deep-V rims and was told 120PSI.

Here is the email conversation:

Hello J,
Some go higher but we don`t recommend it.
regards
albert
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

Thanks Albert… even on track? (no heat into the rims from braking)

Kind regards,

JMR


From: Albert [mailto:albert]
Sent: Monday, 5 March 2012 2:17 PM
To: JMR
Subject: Re: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

Hello J
120 max
regards
albert
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: info@velocitywheels (info@velocitywheels.com)
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 2:02 PM
Subject: max tyre pressure on 700c Deep V rim

Hi,

Just hoping you could tell me what the maximum tyre pressure I can run using a Velocity Deep V rim is?

Thanks.

Kind regards,

JMR

Hmmm... well, this is what I was told by a guy named Adam from Velocity USA:

"Carleton

For tire pressure we would default to the max pressure listed on the tire as the appropriate gauge for pressure limits due to the fact that the tire will give out long before the rim would."

Great. Who is right?

Great....Now what

Great....Now what

Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.

Sounds as if I should be safe especialy since my track is no where near deep banked.
Thanks, sounds like this should work then. In the meantime I'll work on my Speed and Strength and maybe a nice set of tubulars will fall in my lap creating an entire new series of questions.

Rob


Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.

Which particular model of Tri Comp did you use as I found several with high PSI.

Sounds like you've already made up your mind, but here goes anyway...

I bought them because, at the time, they were the only tires that I knew of that would go over 120psi. Plus they were $30 each on Amazon that day. Win-Win.

Since then I bought a Vredstein Tri Comp. It's a great training/racing tire for an outdoor track that goes up to 160psi. Lots of rubber on it. I loaned it out and had the Supersonic laying around so that's why it's on that wheel now. If I had to buy a new tire today, it would be something else.

There are many others options now with more rubber. I say look around and choose one of those. In my estimation, the Supersonic was designed as a light "race day" tire for triathletes who use clinchers.

Which particular model of Tri Comp did you use as I found several with high PSI.

I can't recall and I don't have the tire right now (still loaned out).

Don't over-think this.

Don't over-think this.
TOO late, just kidding. I am sure the current tires on my bike are fine, but we all look for an edge.
As big(ger) guys we all may be a bit slower getting out of the gate, but once the train is rolling get out of the waaaaaay.

Velocity does not have any rating on their rims. Velocity told me that if I ran a continental supersonic 700x20c at 170 psi, I should be fine.

Ellipse has a specific pressure rating (145psi ) and rider weight limit (for the newer version).

A 20mm tire is going to have more sidewall flex and a higher rolling resistance unless you really put a lot of air in it. You can look at the famous tire pressure drop chart and article (http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf) but that 20mm tire is going to need over 150psi to match the % tire pressure drop of a 23mm tire at 130psi.

I think the only real advantage between 20 and 23 mm clincher might be aero, but how much is that really worth.

But on the subject, I have been riding on the road the new Michelin pro4. It has an interesting pointy profile that
1) makes it more aero
2) gives it a lot wider rubber patch on turns - which could be good for slower riding on a steep velodrome.

It does seem to have a smoother ride too, which would be a benefit for those of us on outdoor tracks. Food for thought...







Hmmm... well, this is what I was told by a guy named Adam from Velocity USA:

"Carleton

For tire pressure we would default to the max pressure listed on the tire as the appropriate gauge for pressure limits due to the fact that the tire will give out long before the rim would."

Great. Who is right?

TOO late, just kidding. I am sure the current tires on my bike are fine, but we all look for an edge.
As big(ger) guys we all may be a bit slower getting out of the gate, but once the train is rolling get out of the waaaaaay.

Ummm...no one at DLV can beat me out of the gate (seriously) :)

Well, I'm 240+ lbs and I've been using high pressure (140-160psi) in my clinchers (Deep V and Mavic Ellipse) consistently on steep-ish tracks for a long time. I use tubular most of the time. But, when my tubular wheels are flat (due to punctures) I use my clinchers till I get the tubulars repaired.

I've only had one blowout with a clincher and that happened immediately when I got on the track (like 20 meters). I suspect that was because the bead wasn't set right. It was a Conti GP 4000 tire rated for 120psi and I pumped it to 130psi. I didn't mount the tire myself, the mechanic at a shop did. I should have checked his work. I count that as user error on my part for not maintaining my equipment myself.

I did think that 120psi seemed pretty low... especially on a track rim (no heat from braking), also they are a solid looking rim and not exactly lightweight!

I think I am going to start running 145 in them.

JMR

I did think that 120psi seemed pretty low... especially on a track rim (no heat from braking), also they are a solid looking rim and not exactly lightweight!

I think I am going to start running 145 in them.

JMR

Umm, the issue isn't that you aren't heating the rim from braking. It's that, in contrast to a tubular rim, you have a thin aluminum sidewall sticking up with all that tire pressure forcing it outwards, and the additional pressure and flex induced with every wheel revolution with your weight on the bike. On a banking, there's still a little more.

All that being said, I can't remember when I last saw a clincher rim blow out on a track. So in real life, it's more about the ride you get (or don't get) with clinchers at any particular pressure.

There are still rolling resistance issues to consider, insofar as higher pressures nominally have higher rolling resistance. However, you're rolling on a pretty smooth surface so rolling resistance caused by tire deflection on the riding surface isn't too much of an issue.

Likewise, there are comfort issues. Anyone who thinks all tracks are smooth hasn't ridden many tracks. There are prominent tracks with big gaps going into and coming out of the bankings. There are tracks with bumps, pits, cracks, you name it. And at high speed on a banking in a race, some of those flaws can really kill you. There's a reason why experienced trackies tend to ride heavier and more comfortable saddles rather than the ultralight stuff.

There's also the way that clinchers feel on the track. Whether you're sprinting (or starting) or are simply on a steep banking, tubulars tend to keep a pretty stable shape, while clinchers by virtue of their somewhat taller profile tend to flex sideways and flop a bit. The lower pressures cause this even more. So if you want a tire that simply feels stable and without wobbles, you are likely to have to inflate it a bit more.

So what kinds of pressures and what kinds of tires? My recommendations for clinchers always come down to two lightweight ones -- the Conti Supersonic and the Veloflex Record -- and then just about anything in a heavier training tire. I've put a lot of track riders on Supersonics and Veloflexes and the only difference I've found is that the Veloflexes are more tolerant of misses on the tire pressure, while Supersonics are pretty picky about it. But on the track, both tires should last well. The Supersonic is thinner but the rubber is more durable. Both stick really well on bankings, with the edge going to the Veloflex. But it always comes down to pressure. You can ask all day what the best tire is, but it's the wrong tire with 5 psi too much or too little pressure. And you have to figure that one out yourself. Just go out with your bike and wheels, and do 5 psi increments of pressure. Not just a lap or two, but several hard sprints, a kilo, ride some rails, etc. Then you have the formula that works for you.

Umm, the issue isn't that you aren't heating the rim from braking. It's that, in contrast to a tubular rim, you have a thin aluminum sidewall sticking up with all that tire pressure forcing it outwards, and the additional pressure and flex induced with every wheel revolution with your weight on the bike. On a banking, there's still a little more.


Thanks, I am aware of the forces on a clincher rim.

The reason I mention the lack of heat from braking is; this heat actually increases the tyre pressure (from what I have been told, by 15 PSI or more) and can increase the risk of a rim failure due to the outward pressure on the rim (from the now higher tyre pressure).

Follow me?

JMR

Ummm...no one at DLV can beat me out of the gate (seriously) :)
Kinda tongue in cheek comment on my part, but the truth is that I need to wake up those fast twitch muscles.

Thanks, I am aware of the forces on a clincher rim.

The reason I mention the lack of heat from braking is; this heat actually increases the tyre pressure (from what I have been told, by 15 PSI or more) and can increase the risk of a rim failure due to the outward pressure on the rim (from the now higher tyre pressure).

Follow me?

JMR

You only mentioned the issue of brake heating, so your post wasn't clear. If that wasn't your original point. I'm glad you understand the forces on a clincher rim. Follow me?

You only mentioned the issue of brake heating, so your post wasn't clear. If that wasn't your original point. I'm glad you understand the forces on a clincher rim. Follow me?

No, I don't follow you at all... if fact I have no idea what you are on about.

Go back and read my posts above, it should all make sense.

Then, read your post above and explain to me how my posts weren't clear and what you mean by "If that wasn't your original point."

JMR