Advocacy & Safety - Bike, Car, and Stop Sign Anomaly

Yesterday on the way home from work I was rudely reminded of a situation that very rarely affects me on my bicycle largely because I ride fast and don't stop for anything except to grant right-of-way to crossing motor vehicles at intersections. So generally, motor vehicles never catch up to me as I run stop signs and red lights in order to stay ahead of traffic and ride in traffic gaps created by those traffic features in my city.

So some of you law abiding types may have way more experience with this anomaly than I do, although it does rear it's ugly head around me every year or two.

I was cycling along a quiet neighborhood street literally within sight of my house. 20 mph limit one block from a busy playground, two way street, curbside parking on both sides. Each block is two houses (and their yards) wide between stop signs. I turned right onto "Street A" a few seconds before an SUV turned left onto the same street and was a short distance behind me. I hear the engine gun behind me - unusual here because the block is so short and there is a stop sign at every corner. I need to turn left at the next corner - I have a stop sign, the cross street does not. This may be the only stop sign in the city where I MUST stop. The intersection is blind due to all the parked cars, my street gets used as a "bypass" to beat a traffic signal a block away so traffic is usually flying, and there is a busy playground just at the next corner. So like it or not, I have to at least track stand at the corner before turning left, then right into my driveway two houses away.

So I hear the SUV engine rev, look in my mirror, then move left to bike in the left tire track of the right lane so as not to allow the SUV to pass me before the stop sign (the cars parked curbside create an artificial 1-lane road situation here). So basically, I am in the middle of the road. As I near the stop sign I slow down to look right toward the playground, track stand for an instant, then begin to look and lean left into my turn. Before I can push a pedal the SUV is NEXT TO ME on my left. Parking is not allowed within 18 feet of the corners here, so she took that opportunity to try to go around me in the opposing lane. I got my cleat unclipped but could not put my foot down for fear of getting it run over, so I smacked the SUV with an open palm of my left hand to keep from falling leftward against (or under) the vehicle. The conversation that ensued thereafter was polite on both ends (because my neighbors were outside) and she proceeded on her way with her new found driver's education homework which I am certain was a waste of my breath.

Anyway...this scenario used to happen to me fairly often years ago when I commuted in suburbia where stop signs were farther apart - sometimes five blocks apart. Cars would rarely follow me to a stop sign. They would often try to pass me AT THE FRIGGIN' SIGN! while driving completely in the opposing lane which put them in danger of being clobbered by a turning vehicle head-on. This happened a hundred times during an 8 year period at least. Even my boss did it to me once. When I asked him WTF was he thinking (five minutes later at work) he had no idea what I was referring to. He remembered seeing me, that's all. The danger for me of course is when that "head-on" collision is looming, where do you think that passing car is going to go to avoid the crash? Yep - in my lap.

In the city where blocks are shorter this has not happened to me in ages, but served as a reminder and just another reason to stay ahead of traffic and use stop signs as a means to do so whenever possible.

PS: Many years ago a fellow in a pickup made this move and did end up in my lap - almost. I bailed up the curb while smacking his truck with a fist, then into the front yard of a home. He jumped out, ran up to me with fire in his eyes, fists clenched, as I calmly reminded him that he was in a company truck. He said "I could report him, he didn't care", but he immediately stood down, jumped in the vehicle and squealed away leaving a rubber stripe on the road. I did not report him to his boss, but I am certain he was sweating it. One more step and he would have gotten a face full of "bear spray" and perhaps a few thumps after that.

Good story. I think passing people riding bicycles is a reflex for some people driving cars and they don't realize the futility of attempting to pass at or very close to a stop sign.

Good story. I think passing people riding bicycles is a reflex for some people driving cars and they don't realize the futility of attempting to pass at or very close to a stop sign.

Agreed. I can be going over the speed limit (rare, but it does happen) and cars will still pass me because their brains tell them I'm slow.

motor vehicles never catch up to me as I run stop signs and red lights in order to stay ahead of traffic and ride in traffic gaps created by those traffic features


Before I can push a pedal the SUV is NEXT TO ME on my left. Parking is not allowed within 18 feet of the corners here, so she took that opportunity to try to go around me in the opposing lane.

So what you are saying is that the rules of the road apply to SUVs but not to you??? You break the law to stay ahead of traffic and that's fine but she breaks the law to get ahead of you and you're pissed???

Joey, here is a thread from April of 2006 where I tried to explain a similar situation and why it occurs... http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/188845-The-Notion-explained?highlight=The+notion+explained

It comes from "the notion" of motorists thinking that cyclists are supposed to get out of the way of cars... so motorists do this stupid move at stop signs to try to pass you by going around you just as you stop... and they do it by going into the other lane and end up on the wrong side of the road at the stop. It seems motorists cannot stand being behind a cyclist, even if you are going over the speed limit.

So what you are saying is that the rules of the road apply to SUVs but not to you??? You break the law to stay ahead of traffic and that's fine but she breaks the law to get ahead of you and you're pissed???

Yeah, that was my first impression too... sort of reminds me of news stories where a drug dealer calls 911 to complain that someone ripped him off. ;-)

Yesterday on the way home from work I was rudely reminded of a situation that very rarely affects me on my bicycle largely because I ride fast and don't stop for anything except to grant right-of-way to crossing motor vehicles at intersections. So generally, motor vehicles never catch up to me as I run stop signs and red lights in order to stay ahead of traffic and ride in traffic gaps created by those traffic features in my city.

You can often get those gaps by stopping and waiting until all the motor traffic has cleared the intersection.


So some of you law abiding types may have way more experience with this anomaly than I do .... Cars would rarely follow me to a stop sign. They would often try to pass me AT THE FRIGGIN' SIGN! while driving completely in the opposing lane which put them in danger of being clobbered by a turning vehicle head-on.

I've heard the traffic in New Orleans can sometimes be lawless. They always want to beat you to stops, that's universal I guess. In this area, I'll make the left turn in a way that invites a two-vehical turn, if it's wide enough. I've never had someone force their way inside of me on the turn though - perhaps they're frustrated that you're running all the lights and stop signs, and reason that doing so renounces your right of way?

I didn't read in Joey's OP of him signaling a left turn, that generally gets even the most clueless of motorist's attention, and might be helpful in avoiding a similar situation in the future.

You can often get those gaps by stopping and waiting until all the motor traffic has cleared the intersection.

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I've heard the traffic in New Orleans can sometimes be lawless. They always want to beat you to stops, that's universal I guess. In this area, I'll make the left turn in a way that invites a two-vehical turn, if it's wide enough. I've never had someone force their way inside of me on the turn though - perhaps they're frustrated that you're running all the lights and stop signs, and reason that doing so renounces your right of way?

Don't know about NOLA, but I've had motorists try to pass me on the left, while they eventually wanted to turn right.... now how does that make sense? Especially right at a stop sign... the motorist is setting up to be in totally wrong position... just to pass, even though they are going to turn away anyway.

So what you are saying is that the rules of the road apply to SUVs but not to you??? You break the law to stay ahead of traffic and that's fine but she breaks the law to get ahead of you and you're pissed???

I don't care who breaks what law in what vehicle really, so long as it is not mindless. I don't even care how close they pass me (3-foot law) so long as they don't force me off the road doing it by merging onto my line before they clear my front wheel. Had the roles been reversed in my story, I would never pass the SUV on the left at a stop because it leaves me wide open to a "left hook" if she turns left, or a conflict with a car turning into my face at this blind corner.

But assuming you are right and I break the law willy-nilly all the time, a cyclist getting hit by an SUV is a bit different than a cyclist hitting an SUV.

The real point of the story is to illustrate why obeying every law is dangerous on a bicycle. If I stopped completely at every stop sign, this scenario would play out a dozen times each day and is one of the reasons when I was 15 years old I learned to ride where the cars are not whenever possible and use every traffic control features as an ally, not a nemesis.

I didn't read in Joey's OP of him signaling a left turn, that generally gets even the most clueless of motorist's attention, and might be helpful in avoiding a similar situation in the future.

That would have been ideal for sure, but the surface at that intersection requires both hands on the bars with white knuckles, which also contributed to me falling against the vehicle. I always signal turns when practical. So you are correct. My chances would have been better, but what if I was going straight and not turning? She still would have made this common bonehead move next to me only to be boxed in behind me by parked cars after crossing the intersection. Did she plan to just squeeze me off the road? You betcha.

It was obvious there was no place to go ahead of us if we were side-by-side, and as you noted, she had no way of knowing I wanted to turn left. What was her plan? If she was going to let me proceed ahead of her (I got there first remember?), why was she next to me?

As someone suggested: THEY MUST PASS

You can often get those gaps by stopping and waiting until all the motor traffic has cleared the intersection.

I do that all the time, just depends on how I hit the lights and what the road ahead is like. The whole point is to limit the number of cars passing me. I very often stop at a GREEN light with a foot on the curb a safe distance from a crazy intersection and cross on the yellow light or behind the last car and ride the gap that way.

Joey, here is a thread from April of 2006 where I tried to explain a similar situation and why it occurs... http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/188845-The-Notion-explained?highlight=The+notion+explained

Thanks. I will check it out.

That would have been ideal for sure, but the surface at that intersection requires both hands on the bars with white knuckles, which also contributed to me falling against the vehicle. I always signal turns when practical. So you are correct. My chances would have been better, but what if I was going straight and not turning? She still would have made this common bonehead move next to me only to be boxed in behind me by parked cars after crossing the intersection. Did she plan to just squeeze me off the road? You betcha.

Looks like you'll have to check your mirror more regularly on that particular section of roadway or roads similar to that one. If a motorist really wants to pass you, they'll do some really asinine maneuvers just to get by.

Looks like you'll have to check your mirror more regularly on that particular section of roadway or roads similar to that one. If a motorist really wants to pass you, they'll do some really asinine maneuvers just to get by.

Yup, so much for predictability.

Yup, so much for predictability.


Predictability is still a good thing, as long as it's sprinkled with a big helping of situational awareness.

intersections where I have to stop are the one place where I insist on taking the full lane. If they want to go over into the oncoming lane at the stop sign in order to pass, nothing I can do about it. On my commute, there is one stop sign where I have seen multiple cars pass me and then run the sign at speed. I'm pretty sure if I wasn't there, they would have pretended to stop.

intersections where I have to stop are the one place where I insist on taking the full lane. If they want to go over into the oncoming lane at the stop sign in order to pass, nothing I can do about it. On my commute, there is one stop sign where I have seen multiple cars pass me and then run the sign at speed. I'm pretty sure if I wasn't there, they would have pretended to stop.

Yep. There are a number of stop sign intersections like that where I've had this same thing happen a number of times. I now preemptively move far to the left when approaching those intersections precisely to head off this exact behavior by motorists. Sometimes they need "encouragement" not to pass where it isn't safe or sensible to do so, and after you've been riding a route for a while, you know where these trouble spots are.

That would have been ideal for sure, but the surface at that intersection requires both hands on the bars with white knuckles, which also contributed to me falling against the vehicle. I always signal turns when practical.
Can't you put your foot down and signal? That's what I do, and somehow this situation never happens to me.

If you're going straight, coming to a full stop allows the car to be a jerk, but at least not dangerous. If you're stopped with your foot on the pavement, you're just a stationary obstacle that they go around and they have to give enough room... otherwise they're blatantly running you over.

I think coming to a full stop is far safer. Your assertion that obeying the law is dangerous doesn't make sense to me. With the exception of 4-way stops where nobody is there, I come to a full stop at every stop sign, and this situation doesn't play out a dozen times a day - in fact, I can't remember it ever happening. The only times a similar situation occurs are the times when I have no stop sign and am turning into a side street.

Predictability is still a good thing, as long as it's sprinkled with a big helping of situational awareness.

Excellent advice.

Can't you put your foot down and signal? That's what I do, and somehow this situation never happens to me.

Putting my foot on the ground would have made this incident less of a safety issue for sure, I agree. Far and away most of these incidents occur shortly before I actually arrive at the stop sign. The motorist begins to pass me when I am still at speed approaching the intersection, then realizes they can not beat me to the sign so either remain in the oncoming lane all the way to the sign, or simply squeeze me off the road as they move into my lane without the slightest regard for my whereabouts (see the "company truck" story higher up this page). My mirror keeps this action from taking me by surprise, but it is never fun when it happens bordering on unbelievable.

The fact that I am still here having cycling experiences at 55 years of age should give some assurance that I know how to handle a bike around cars. I began cycling seriously at 15 and became totally car free once and for all at 30. (My wife owns a car that I do enjoy for dates with her and some vacation travel). If I want to get somewhere on my own, be it across town or across the country, I am on a bicycle. It is not easy to sneak up on me or catch me off guard. But there are certain scenarios, this one included, that really stumps me. Stopping completely at the signs would be besides the point and after the unwanted interaction most times.

get cameras and let the police give 'em some real education - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oovVNL0wpKc

I'm reading the OP and it seems to me that the SUV driver had a similar motivation and method as the cyclist -- to drive in "the clear" between obstructing clumps of traffic. The opportunity to pass and get free of the obstructing traffic occurs when that traffic stops at intersections, whether the passer is an SUV or a cyclist.

I'd suggest that for those who are offended by this kind of "selective law breaking" on the part of a motorist, now you can begin to understand why some motorists have an emotional response when they see a cyclist break the law.

BTW, Joey, no criticism of your riding style implied -- if I was in NOL, I'd ride the same way, and for the same reasons.

I'd suggest that for those who are offended by this kind of "selective law breaking" on the part of a motorist, now you can begin to understand why some motorists have an emotional response when they see a cyclist break the law.
here is the big difference -- this directly impacted the safety of the OP. I see people breaking traffic laws all the time. Since there seems to be a concerted propaganda effort to blame cyclists for the sociopathic behavior of some motorists, I do happen to notice it when motorists break the law even though it doesn't directly impact anyone's safety. OTOH, I do take it pretty seriously when motorists break the law and it impacts my safety.

here is the big difference -- this directly impacted the safety of the OP. I see people breaking traffic laws all the time. Since there seems to be a concerted propaganda effort to blame cyclists for the sociopathic behavior of some motorists, I do happen to notice it when motorists break the law even though it doesn't directly impact anyone's safety. OTOH, I do take it pretty seriously when motorists break the law and it impacts my safety.

I agree with you and understand the distinction -- my attitude towards law breaking is that it is the actual risk and potential impact on others that really matters.

However, I'm talking about the emotional response -- reading the responses to the OP, you can see that some people seem to be miffed at the motorists' "need to pass", the idea that drivers don't have the patience to slow down and wait and then go on to intentionally break the law. This emotional response that others are unreasonably impatient and willful is the same response that motorists have when they observe that cyclists can't be bothered to obey traffic laws.

What you should do in these situations is to "arrange" a set-up where the errant driver finds themselves in the poo. So if you are say 80% certain the motorist will make a specific move in that circumstance, you wait patiently until there is a situation where you can play the right card and leave them in the diabolical mess whilst you scoot away chuckling!!

...now you can begin to understand why some motorists have an emotional response when they see a cyclist break the law.

Humans are balls of emotion to begin with, so I have no trouble understanding an emotional response to actual danger leveled at the emotional person. It will never make sense to me why a motorist will become infuriated after observing a cyclist run a red light when the coast is clear, then immediately find their way to an Interstate Highway and drive fifteen miles over the limit without a second thought, even when sober, obviously putting anyone actually obeying the law at a greater risk.

If I do something dumb and mindless on the road to cause a motorist to swerve and narrowly miss a power pole on the way to a soccer game with ten kids in the car - there should be a strong emotional response. If I run a red across an empty street ahead of the same person, why do they get angry enough to chase me down and yell at me? Is it jealousy? Are the miffed that somehow I am staying ahead of them when every fiber of their being wants to be ahead of me? I don't really know.

I interviewed my wife about this. She does not cycle at all and has few cycling friends besides me. I asked her how she feels when she sees a cyclist running a red light "safely". Her response was "I could not care less". Other friends of mine get enraged at the mere mention of this stating "IT'S AGAINST THE LAW!" None of them obey any speed limits, stop dead at stop signs nor before turning right-on-reds. It is selective lawbreaking and hypocrisy at its finest. Bottom line - most motorists believe the streets belong to them and any non-motorized vehicle gets lumped into a category of "non-moving" objects like fire hydrants, trash cans, and dead dogs. When I am totally disregarded as such, and my life an limb put at risk because of it, yes - my emotions do stir.

If I do something dumb and mindless on the road to cause a motorist to swerve and narrowly miss a power pole on the way to a soccer game with ten kids in the car - there should be a strong emotional response. If I run a red across an empty street ahead of the same person, why do they get angry enough to chase me down and yell at me? Is it jealousy? Are the miffed that somehow I am staying ahead of them when every fiber of their being wants to be ahead of me? I don't really know ...

I think the emotional motorist response stems from a number of things -- your riding violates their sense of "the way things should be". Also, there is a "law-abiding" portion of our society that is offended by the idea that anyone would intentionally break the law

Humans are balls of emotion to begin with, so I have no trouble understanding an emotional response to actual danger leveled at the emotional person. It will never make sense to me why a motorist will become infuriated after observing a cyclist run a red light when the coast is clear, then immediately find their way to an Interstate Highway and drive fifteen miles over the limit without a second thought, even when sober, obviously putting anyone actually obeying the law at a greater risk.
I think you hit it: emotional responses don't make sense. Inherently.

However, I have to admit that as a cyclist, I get annoyed when other cyclists pass me (stopped at the light) and go run the light. They cause the emotional response in drivers, who then get angry at ME. Drivers can't chase down the cyclist who ran the red light, so they're going to rev their engines and squeeze out the one who didn't.

In this case, it's a "you're making me look bad" thing. I have no idea if it's true or not - maybe those cars would have been rude even if the other cyclist hadn't been there - but it sure feels that way sometimes.

Of course, as you say, if the emotional response hadn't been there in the first place, then there wouldn't be a problem...

In this case, it's a "you're making me look bad" thing. I have no idea if it's true or not - maybe those cars would have been rude even if the other cyclist hadn't been there - but it sure feels that way sometimes.

There are certainly motorists who have a great natural disdain for us (cyclists) to begin with, and it would be myopic of me to deny my red light running could further their cause and continually reinforce their hatred. "Luckily", my community tilts the field in our (cyclists) favor a bit because of the unique traffic culture here in New Orleans. First, there are lots and lots of cyclists on the streets at all times of the day and night. None of them (at least in my observations) stop for red lights when the coast is clear, so motorists generally expect it and most of them become desensitized to that behavior. At stop signs it is very common for a motorist to stop and wave me through even though I have a stop sign and they do not - that is how much they expect us to run them. So in a weird way, it all works out for the most part. Second, cyclists and motorists here are dancing on a stage of general traffic mayhem. Lots of motorists run red lights on purpose and none of them know how to properly stop at a stop sign. Everybody speeds. They turn left from the right lane and right from the left lane and rarely signal any turn legal or otherwise. They stop in the middle of the street to chat with friends on the sidewalk regardless of traffic behind them. They double park, park too near corners and fire hydrants, and park against traffic. Cyclists, not to be outdone, bike against traffic often and generally do whatever they can get away with in traffic. Rarely do you see a well lighted bike after dark, or the rider wearing bright clothing. Stop lights and signs are a nuisance to be ignored, partly because we can't depend on vehicles to stop at any of them. Then...there is the alcohol thing. A study in the 1990s found that HALF of all motorists on the road in NOLA at any given time, even weekdays, are at least mildly impaired with alcohol. Now add cellphones to the equation. Somehow, we don't all get killed every day because, I think, the vast majority of residents are laid back, liberal, and really don't care what everyone else is doing (emotionally).

If I lived in a more rigid, rule following community with a similar large cycling community of law abiders, my behavior might be different entirely. And my affect on my fellow cyclists due to an outlaw riding style might be magnified accordingly. I would be "out of place" and scorned by motorists and cyclists alike. In NOLA, I am more interested in just surviving my four mile commute. A lion on the savannah is a different critter than a lion in a petting zoo. His/her environment shapes the behavior. Ignoring the rules of engagement and the facts on the ground, and not adapting to them, is a risky business.

It's this whole "emotional stir" that makes me question the "logic" often embraced by the vehicular cycling sect. Motorists (and yes, cyclists) don't run through the range of rules before making traffic decisions... they simply tend to react to what is happening before them.

Yes, we need rules... but we also need to be aware of why rules may not work.

I turned right onto "Street A" a few seconds before an SUV...

Once I saw "SUV", I knew what was coming...

I actually had to read the whole first paragraph to get the full sense of what the OP was about. While I can sort of understand his self-serving logic about ignoring traffic rules that inconvenience him (as I suppose most of us do at least some of the time), it's his impulse control that needs work. I wouldn't trust him with nuclear weapons, put it that way.