I have been an active participant on these forums for a while now and have noticed that there seems to be a marked decline in the degree of common courtesy and civility. I understand that people feel strongly about things and that this can lead to frustration and dislike towards people who don't agree with you. But, come on people, the purpose of these forums is to exchange ideas and opinions about things, isn't it? If you have and express a certain opinion, shouldn't you expect that some people won't agree with you?
I enjoy a spirited debate and have been persuaded by the informed and skilled arguments of some forum members. People like Serge, Laika, and Closetbiker provide us with an important service, I believe, by contributing their sometimes unpopular, but very well informed viewpoints. You may or may not agree with them, you can hit the "ignore" button if if they really bother you, but I really don't see any reason to be insulting or denigrating towards them.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Yes the has been a decline, however this is still a very polite forum compared to some. Maybe a thread like this will get us back to where we were.
Joe
KrisPistofferson
I think you should be able to say whatever you want as long as it's not ridiculous/psychotic. I've got a couple people on my ignore list, but if anyone really got my goat, I'd report them to the mods. No one's ever got to me that badly, though.
nick burns
People should be able to post their opinions freely. The heated exchanges in some of these threads makes for some pretty entertaining reading & keeps me coming back for more. Especially during these long boring winter months.
Cyclists are opinionated people, maybe because of the variety of reasons we're involved in cycling in the first place. Some ride for transport, some for health, some sport, & some just for the fun of it. With all these different mindsets mixing it up, you're inevitably going to find differences of opinion. I enjoy reading other people's opinions, even if I don't agree with them.
slvoid
Here's the problem. I have no problem with people having their opinions. But sometimes, it's just a tad irresponsible to voice an opinion that can do more harm than good even if you have good intentions.
In engineering, everyonce in a while, I face a situation with 2 kinds of errors and it's always favorable to be wrong one way than another.
For example, (I'm making up these figures) Helmets work 80% of the time and cause harm 20% of the time.
If someone pushes the 20% in a real biased sort of way, it could convince unsuspecting people to not wear a helmet.
If someone pushes the 80% in a real biased sort of way, it could convince unsuspecting people to wear a helmet.
If the former argument wins, the price of failure is great (80%) in an accident.
If the latter argument wins, the price of failure is less (20%) in an accident.
I tell my coworkers to stop at lights every single time. On the other hand, I never stop at lights and cross every red light on my way to work. But I don't try to hide the negative aspects of crossing a red while touting the positive aspects. Because if I'm right, the best that can happen is you save a few minutes and risk getting injured and the worst that can happen is you don't save a few minutes and have a significantly lesser risk of getting injured.
OTOH, I won't have much of a problem if someone is wrong at recommending coke over pepsi since the price of failure should that decision be wrong is pretty slim on both ends.
It's a personal choice. You're right, people should have their opinions. Others also have the right to vehemently speak out against it if they feel that it's more harm than good.
Mars
slvoid:
Now there is an argument that I can relate to! And I completely see your point, AND it is a persuasive one. What if someone is posting bad information on the forums that could potentially harm people if that advice/opinion was followed? I remember 54-11 or whoever he was posting all kinds of advice to people over in the roadies forum and feeling annoyed because what if some newbie actually listened to him?
But let me put this to you, slvoid. In engineering, I imagine that you can always build something stronger than it is. You could make a car that could survive a 90 mph collision (I'm making these figures up too!) but it would weigh 35 tons and cost 4 million dollars. So, imagining the work of an engineer, at some point you must weigh the risk and likely use of a product and make the best decision that you can. Right? And I think this is where we disagree. Engineers must interpret the data, so do all cyclists in making our decisions of what to do. I interpret it one way, you another. I ride fast road bikes. A comfort bike may be safer. You run red lights, it would be safer if you didn't. We are both choosing convenience/preference over a marginal increase in safety...
In any case, I would like to keep this thread on topic. I don't mind vehemence, I do mind disrespect. I would like to say that I, very much, appreciate your thoughtful and respectful posting here. I look forward to more of the same in the future.
junioroverlord
Let's not get all worked up by words on a compter screen put ther by people that we most liekly will never come in contact with in real life.
closetbiker
I find the lack of civility to be counter productive to a good argument. It's just not a good way to dispute the issues at hand and shows a lack of ability to reason through an argument, so the uncivil ones are just shooting themselves in the foot.
glowingrod
PubMab doesn't realize when there is a debate on and when there isn't. He should start his own thread about his pet project instead of hijacking others that arent interested.
PaperBoy
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" --Voltaire(?)
"I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong" -- Anonymous (female, no doubt).
Anyway, I voted to keep things as they are. Let's just keep it between the ditches.
slvoid
But let me put this to you, slvoid. In engineering, I imagine that you can always build something stronger than it is. You could make a car that could survive a 90 mph collision (I'm making these figures up too!) but it would weigh 35 tons and cost 4 million dollars. So, imagining the work of an engineer, at some point you must weigh the risk and likely use of a product and make the best decision that you can. Right? And I think this is where we disagree. Engineers must interpret the data, so do all cyclists in making our decisions of what to do. I interpret it one way, you another. I ride fast road bikes. A comfort bike may be safer. You run red lights, it would be safer if you didn't. We are both choosing convenience/preference over a marginal increase in safety...
In engineering, with most companies, pretty much everything comes down to cost. When you're doing work for say, NASA, things are often done for political reasons. In science, you find some real headway in terms of not letting things get to you.
But sometimes, as stated in the above, you have two interpretations and even if both have the same odds, you always choose the one with the smaller penalty. In this case, when wearing a helmet, IF you do get into an accident, the penalty of injury FROM the helmet is lesser than the penalty of injury if not wearing a helmet. If you DON'T get into an accident, the penalty of wearing a helmet is $50 or so missing from your wallet, looking dorky, and having a pod on your head.
For someone riding like grandma, the gap is marginal as is for someone riding 30mph in the TDF peleton who has cat like reflexes and world class training.
However, anyone who rides enough will tell you, you take enough risks, you go fast enough, you go far enough, and your odds of getting into an accident approach the stage of not "if" but "when" and "how hard". For very many of us who go out, ride in heavy traffic, mountain bike, do crazy jumps, push 30+ on the flats and 60+ on the downhills in tight formation who can't afford or who don't have the natural cat like reflexes that some people have, a helmet, like gloves, like padding, like sunglasses, offers real protection.
Mars
[For very many of us who go out, ride in heavy traffic, mountain bike, do crazy jumps, push 30+ on the flats and 60+ on the downhills in tight formation who can't afford or who don't have the natural cat like reflexes that some people have, a helmet, like gloves, like padding, like sunglasses, offers real protection.[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything that you are saying here. Well, mostly. Might take out the word "real". And maybe "heavy traffic" Good points, though. If you ride like that, the likelihood of a crash is increased and everyone should consider more protection... even.....gasp, gurgle...a helmet.
THERE! I SAID IT!!!! DAMN YOU!!!
joeprim
People should be able to post their opinions freely. The heated exchanges in some of these threads makes for some pretty entertaining reading & keeps me coming back for more. Especially during these long boring winter months.
Cyclists are opinionated people, maybe because of the variety of reasons we're involved in cycling in the first place. Some ride for transport, some for health, some sport, & some just for the fun of it. With all these different mindsets mixing it up, you're inevitably going to find differences of opinion. I enjoy reading other people's opinions, even if I don't agree with them.
When I voted for civility I hope that wasn't interrupted as saying folks need to agree! Even in heated exchanges replies should be polite and attack the idea not the poster. As closetbiker said it actually helps the argument.
Joe
:beer: :beer:
slvoid
THERE! I SAID IT!!!! DAMN YOU!!!
Excellent... :)
timmhaan
i think we should be able to rate the quality of people's posts. have a little rating system from 1 to 5 that you can click on. it would be even cooler to be able to sort posts by the quality rating they recieve. netflix does this with movies, and after a while you're more exposed to the type of movies you rate higher. ebay does it as well. maybe you could even universally ignore people with a low rating.
billh
Civility is relative to one's past experience. bikeforums.net seems very civil to me. Of course, I am coming from a local bicycle message board experience in St Louis, stlbiking.com, in which I posted unpopular opinions re Iraq in the "Off Topic" forum, which eventually escalated to threats toward my family and unauthorized posting of my home address and phone number, as well as my work phone number. The forum admin thought I "deserved it" for making controversial posts. I ended up filing a complaint with the local police department who promised to put extra patrols on my house. Needless to say, I have stopped posting there. So, a little heated discussion on bikeforums.net seems pretty minor compared to that mess.
Helmet-Head
i think we should be able to rate the quality of people's posts. have a little rating system from 1 to 5 that you can click on. it would be even cooler to be able to sort posts by the quality rating they recieve. netflix does this with movies, and after a while you're more exposed to the type of movies you rate higher. ebay does it as well. maybe you could even universally ignore people with a low rating.
Great idea. Even better, instead of funding it with ads, have posters fund the forum based on the rating scale:
Reading is free (and no obnoxious ads).
First 5 posts are free.
From then on, the price of posting varies based on your average rating (the higher the rating, the lower the posting fee).
Also, the votes of higher rated members count more than the votes of lower rated and new members.
The very highest rated are paid to post.
norton
Great idea. Even better, instead of funding it with ads, have posters fund the forum based on the rating scale:
Reading is free (and no obnoxious ads).
First 5 posts are free.
From then on, the price of posting varies based on your average rating (the higher the rating, the lower the posting fee).
Also, the votes of higher rated members count more than the votes of lower rated and new members.
The very highest rated are paid to post.
Serge....what a foolproof way to cut down the number of people reading your excallent (if overlong) posts....
Diggy18
Aw come on, you're making too big a deal out of this. I mean, if someone is calling you names, you can always just ignore them - just don't respond. End of story, end of problem. You don't even need the neat little ignore function. Just avert your eyes.
Edit: The walking dead should be allowed to say whatever they want. Spongebob and Squidward, too.
slvoid
i think we should be able to rate the quality of people's posts. have a little rating system from 1 to 5 that you can click on. it would be even cooler to be able to sort posts by the quality rating they recieve. netflix does this with movies, and after a while you're more exposed to the type of movies you rate higher. ebay does it as well. maybe you could even universally ignore people with a low rating.
www.slashdot.org :)
LordOpie
*Bruce Willis Voice (Die Hard)*
Welcome to the internet pal!
scottogo
There are people who enjoy the feeling of power it gives them to belittle another poster. Who are we to say, "Take it easy. Or, Think about how that will affect the readers. Or, Just keep on bombing them until they capitulate, and/or retaliate and escalate"?
We are asking now so we don't have to escalater.
slvoid
There are people who enjoy the feeling of power it gives them to belittle another poster. Who are we to say, "Take it easy. Or, Think about how that will affect the readers. Or, Just keep on bombing them until they capitulate, and/or retaliate and escalate"?
We are asking now so we don't have to escalater.
53-11 used to belittle people too but no one cared that much cause we all knew he was a nutjob. But when people try to belittle other people for wearing a helmet, etc, you're putting someone in harm's way if they're not smart enough to make a decision for themselves.
Somebody has to embiggen people.
genec
In engineering, with most companies, pretty much everything comes down to cost. When you're doing work for say, NASA, things are often done for political reasons.
Oddly enough, your example, NASA, also works to a cost line.
There are always compomises in any engineering task. Where to draw the bottom line is never the engineers' job, sadly.
slvoid
Oddly enough, your example, NASA, also works to a cost line.
There are always compomises in any engineering task. Where to draw the bottom line is never the engineers' job, sadly.
When I worked at a research lab that had govt. funding and shared it with some other labs that had nasa or military funding, the attitude was, "here's some money, if you don't spend it, you lose it". And if we spent more, we got more, if we spent less, we got less.
Helmet-Head
When I worked at a research lab that had govt. funding and shared it with some other labs that had nasa or military funding, the attitude was, "here's some money, if you don't spend it, you lose it". And if we spent more, we got more, if we spent less, we got less.
The horrifying reality is that every function in government operates under similar guidelines.
Just look at cycling advocacy. The only game in town is getting "funding" for facilities. Guess what cycling advocacy focuses on?
You see this kind of thinking to some extent in large corporations, but ultimately profit margins and competition keeps them honest. There is no such ultimate check in government; just increasing taxes, deficits and debt.
genec
When I worked at a research lab that had govt. funding and shared it with some other labs that had nasa or military funding, the attitude was, "here's some money, if you don't spend it, you lose it". And if we spent more, we got more, if we spent less, we got less.
Yeah I saw the same thing in the labs here on the west coast... but there are limits, and managers that draw the lines. It may look like an endless stream... but it is not.
sbhikes
I haven't noticed much incivility, at least nothing like I've experienced elsewhere.
There may be an increase in evangelism lately, which can be annoying. Religeous zeal tends to be extreme and generally inflexible and this can appear to lack civility.
Also annoying, especially when combined with evangelism, is when people post in the "nit-pic" method where they quote and refute what you said sentence-by-sentence. I find that annoying and don't like to read those types of posts.
And nobody likes ad hominem attacks or any comments about your mother.
Maybe you can post a vague example of what you mean?
genec
You see this kind of thinking to some extent in large corporations, but ultimately profit margins and competition keeps them honest. There is no such ultimate check in government; just increasing taxes, deficits and debt.
LOL honest large corporations... Riiiiiiight...
Lessee: Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, Arthur Andersen, Global Crossing, Tyco... and more.
I suppose "honesty" can "claimed" if one considers that at least a few of these have closed their doors. Of course, if you were a share holder or a worker, your view may differ.
Here is a nice comprehensive list... from Forbes magazine of ultimately "honest" large corporations...
Lessee: Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, Arthur Andersen, Global Crossing, Tyco... and more.
I suppose "honesty" can "claimed" if one considers that at least a few of these have closed their doors. Of course, if you were a share holder or a worker, your view may differ.
Here is a nice comprehensive list... from Forbes magazine of ultimately "honest" large corporations...
I think he meant it keeps the staff honest. Cause if there are real caps handed out by management, you can bet the engineers cower in their little cubicals and design to cost while upper management piss away money.
qmsdc15
Serge....what a foolproof way to cut down the number of people reading your excallent (if overlong) posts....
People read those!? HAHA, JUST KIDDING! I forget how to make the smileys so my posts are mis-understood. I sort of mean what I say although I'm sarcastic and devil's advocate often and way too flip. Is this thread about me? Can anyone see this post or am I on everyone's ignore list? If I'm not, who is (the blue frightened smiley here)?
If you have a problem with someone's post, you should challenge it there in that thread or PM the transgressor and see if he is willing to edit/delete the post and/or be more civil in the future.
I think the bike forums are very civil, I guess I'm the biggest jerk here, I can't think of anyone else you could be talking about (pink embarrassed smiley). Sorry,
Diggy18
53-11 used to belittle people too but no one cared that much cause we all knew he was a nutjob. But when people try to belittle other people for wearing a helmet, etc, you're putting someone in harm's way if they're not smart enough to make a decision for themselves.
Somebody has to embiggen people.
"embiggen"!!
"escalater"!!!!
:roflmao:
Haha they were pretty good ones!
Diggy18
Can anyone see this post or am I on everyone's ignore list? If I'm not, who is (the blue frightened smiley here)?
Hey, did anyone hear anything? Coulda sworn I heard somebody say something. Hmmm, musta been the wind.
Haha, what did someone say? Don't say things about people's moms? So if someone posts about how to clean their rims, we shouldn't reply with a simple, "Your mom!"?
cyclezealot
I think it is fine to have a spirited disagreement with someone.Let all the cards out on the table as long as you do it with civility...
Roughstuff
I voted for alterbative three just to be a nasty fella.
I have more experience with this than many of you. I have been using discussion boards ince the early 1980s when I was a grad student at UMass. A buddy of mine monitored---loosely---a 'discussion' board called Graffiti. It was anything goes. You wouldn't believe this board...there would 150, 200, 250 letters posted every DAY, full of all kinds of invective and insults, as well as occasional discussion of issues.
This went on for weeks and weeks and weeks. I knew many of the people who wrote, since we were all clueless SciFi geeks with no life who spent Friday nights in the mainframe computer lab till 3 AM. We would often use 3 computer terminals at the same time...one for D and D, one for Graffiti, and one for doing some actual work. (Obviously this was before 'windows.')
Eventually the whole process blew itself out. I mean, how many times can you call someone a Fag, a loser, a hypocrite, a dyke, a moron, ad nauseum? Eventually things got pretty mellow. The folks who had thin skins stopped using the board, and the ones with thick skins weren't worth abusing any more, since it didn't do any good.
roughstuff
billh
Well said, this is the way of life in the Wild West of the Internet. The problem comes when message boards intersect real life. In the case of stlbiking.com, I had an avatar that was stored on the same web server as my personal web page. With a little exploring, some people found the web page and posted the link, which included pics of my wife and son in the hospital after his birth. I quickly took down the web page. Then followed lewd comments about my wife and encouragement to do harm to her and my son. This followed by posting of my full name and address. Unfortunately, none of this is considered private information because the web site was not password protected and my home address is in the phone book. However, the combination of all these elements in that context was frightening, if not illegal. In essence these were the same tactics of intimidation as those used by groups like the Klan, except executed in cyberspace.
Mars
Holy crap, billh, that is a scary story. Amazing that you are still active on any forum. You are brave guy and not easily intimidated.
And I guess that leads me to a response to RoughStuff's post above. I believe that there are a lot of people who read these forums and never contribute. And I think tht the perception that they might be attacked, put down, or called names for having a certain opinion is a discouraging factor. Not everybody has thick skin, nerves of steel, or is impervious to insult. None the less, I would like to hear what they have to say. I suspect that a degree of civility and respect for opposing views would help encourage them to contribute.
cyclezealot
As to roughstuff..When arguments get too hot and just insults, the reason to share ideas is futile..No ideas are exchanged.. Most will then not bother...One can challenge one's premises without getting personal...When it gets personal, the other person will not listen anyway.. Any exercise if futile is not worth our time..
yes, some of us just enjoy being ill tempered.
Laika
wow! maybe I'm wrong, but relative to a lot of other boards, this is like a Methodist tea social. my wife posts to urbanbaby, a mothers' board, which is way more foul and full of personal invective than bikeforums is. you want to see catty, get a group of young moms together & get them started talking about breastfeeding, sleep training and stay-at-home vs. work outside the home moms. it can get ugly.
it's nice here.
KrisPistofferson
Shut up, Laika. ;)
Mars
haha, I have got to go see this urban baby forum!! No one is more dogmatic than a new mother!!
eubi
On these forums, we have to be very careful how sensitive we are. We only get a look at someone's words. Someone we don't even know in person, for the most part. We don't get vocal inflections or body language. What may be intended as harmless joshin' may be taken by someone as a gross insult.
But is it a disagreement or insult? Be careful on this!
I think any perceived insults should be challenged. In most of the cases, I'll bet it was just a misunderstanding.
And I agree, this is one of the most civil boards I have visited.
I need to go back to work and yell at some subordinates now.
closetbiker
As to roughstuff..When arguments get too hot and just insults, the reason to share ideas is futile..No ideas are exchanged.. Most will then not bother...One can challenge one's premises without getting personal...When it gets personal, the other person will not listen anyway.. Any exercise if futile is not worth our time..
yes, some of us just enjoy being ill tempered.
Good post.
I liken the responses to the abusing poster(s) as being somewhat similar to what to do about a road raging driver. There is not much you can really do if someone is being unreasonable and even if you try to straigten out the situation, often the offender only gets angrier.
Still, there has to be something that should be done or said or the uncivil ones take over and that would be the end (one way or another) of our civil board. I guess that's why the mods put in a report button on each post. They can shut the whole thing down.
billh
Holy crap, billh, that is a scary story. Amazing that you are still active on any forum. You are brave guy and not easily intimidated.
I felt like if I backed down in response to the threats from the stlbiking.com message board, I would be their "biatch" forever, since I have to live in the same city as most of them. I couldn't identify the ones making the threat so I made the entire board pay by becoming as big a pain in the rear as I could. Then I left on my own terms, ie. "at a place and time of my choosing", to paraphrase one wartime leader. I'm not saying that was mature, but in the absence of help from the board admin, I felt I had no choice. I don't plan on that ever happening again, least of all here.
DnvrFox
Aw come on, you're making too big a deal out of this. I mean, if someone is calling you names, you can always just ignore them - just don't respond. End of story, end of problem. You don't even need the neat little ignore function. Just avert your eyes.
I would be nice if the "ignore" function REALLY ignored the person, rather than telling you that they have written a post, but you can ignore it unless you click the little "show post" button. That just whets my curiosity.
I would like the "ignore" button to totally ignore the poster, including attributed quotes in follow up posts.
Now, I have only one person on my "ignore" list, but that person and I can't even say "Hi!" without some sort of an argument breaking out. :(
cyclezealot
closetbiker...The thread you responded to does pose a dilema...When just in the give and take of a general argument about outside ideas, respect should be expected.
However, I can think of forces outside this forum whose motives are questionable, and their motives need be outed..Guess that could apply to Bike Forums...
But, if you think one is an evil doer and need be exposed, how can that be done without getting personal...
closetbiker
closetbiker...if you think one is an evil doer and need be exposed, how can that be done without getting personal...
I would hope a well founded and reasonable argument should expose the weaker argument and disqualify the weaker points but that would assume the uncivil element is interested in the topic's merits.
Most of the uncivil types use the argument to denegrate so there really is a point in not bothering to take part at all once the denegration begins.
Maybe my biggest sin is giving some too much leway, hoping for reason when none is going to be forthcoming. I might have too much faith in peoples ability to reason and learn. Some just can't argue without using personal attacks because the attacks on the merits of the arguments aren't strong enough to sway an opinion or part of an opinion.
My daughter elementary teacher said, when someone attacks someone personally, they might as well hang a sign on their neck saying, "I don't like myself". In my experiance, I find this to be true.
cyclezealot
I would hope a well founded and reasonable argument should expose the weaker argument and disqualify the weaker points but that would assume the uncivil element is interested in the topic's merits.
My daughter elementary teacher said, when someone attacks someone personally, they might as well hang a sign on their neck saying, "I don't like myself". In my experiance, I find this to be true.
Unfortunately, discussion in this TV age has been relegatd to the clash of PR titans and issues only clutter the way to winning a PR war...I think the way we handle advertisment effects our personal lives as well..
closetbiker
Unfortunately, ...I think the way we handle advertisment effects our personal lives as well..
I agree.
I should have added a last comment after,
when someone attacks someone personally, they might as well hang a sign on their neck saying, "I don't like myself"
I'll add, there isn't much you can do about a person's tendancy or ability to handle things on a message board when it's just an extension of their personality. Just like you can't change the way their minds have been shaped by mass media and culture. All you can do is stay on topic and address the merits of the discussion.
Mars
Another element in all of this seems to be the way complex issues are treated in a black or white, right or wrong way in our culture. People like to see absolute resolution of issues and if the issue is founded on a belief system of some sort, there is even more trouble brewing. That's because when an idea is based on a belief instead of evidence, no rational data or argument will persuade them. It's like arguing with someone who isn't listening to you, only waiting for their turn to talk. Furthermore, the person challenging the belief is wrong/stupid/evil. And this, of course frees people up to insult the stupid evil doers.