"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - phil ligit and paul sherwin (sometimes bob roll)

well, every bike race i've ever seen has these guys as commentators. i like them and certainly don't mind listening to their voices for several hours on end. BUT, is there anyone else? how did they get to dominate the race scene so much? for many people, these guys are the voice of professional cycling and have been for many many years.



p.s. forgive my spelling..should be liggett.

Believe me, after suffering through some of the lame commentary on CBS and ESPN by American commentators, Liggett, Sherwen, and Roll are godsends (yes, I know Roll is American). Phil has been covering the Tour for over 30 years. Sherwen and Roll were pro racers in the '80's, so they have first hand experience with what they're talking about. I love the sophisticated style of Liggett and Sherwen, and I actually like the contrast provided by Roll's off the wall style.

Anyone who has just gotten in to watching racing on TV in the last 6 years or so has no idea how bad the coverage was in the 80's and early 90's. Pretty much every race broadcast in the '80's had cheesy John Tesch music as the soundtrack. CBS would have Pierre Salinger doing an investigative report on the vineyards of Bordeaux when the Tour finished there. I could not have cared less about French wine making! I wanted to see if Abdoujaparov was going to keep it upright, or if he was going to careen through the field sprint like a cannonball (usually the latter). I still remember one of the commentators (and I'm being charitable by using that word) said there were only 3 reasons to climb Alpe d'Huez on a bicycle:
1) You have a thing about looking down on birds.
2) You ordered a Japanese mail order bride, and they delivered her to the top of the mountain. (Yes, he really said that!) or...
3) You're a racer in the Tour de France (pronouncing "Tour de France" with all the cheesy hyperenthusiasm of a late night infomercial).
God, it makes me want to chug a gallon of Drain-o just thinking about it.

Others will disagree with this, but I think it will be a sad, sad day for American audiences when Phil Liggett retires. He has an encyclopedic knoweldge of the sport, as well as a genuine understanding and respect for what the riders are going through. I love the dry humor between him and Paul Sherwen.

Let us hope that Liggett never retires. Even when he dies, I think I'll invent a program that will take his entire commentaries for every race he's covered in 30 years and mix them in such a way that it will fit the current race perfectly.

As far as I'm concerned, the man is a cycling commentary genius.

Paul and Phil are not only the two best English speaking cycling commentators in the biz, but I'd go so far as to say that they are among the best in any sport.

totally agree with Laggard.
The pity is I don't see anyone who could fill either of their
shoes. Sure Bobke is good for colour but not as a replacement
for either Phil or Paul.
I just hope we get to see them this year.

Marty

...trying my best to write the way he sounds....

"Phil, these bite-ridas bode-ies are racked with pain now. Look at Ullrich's eyes, a beast of mahn grinding up this climb..."

i'm continually amazed at how well phil covers the sprint finishes especially.

I've rewatched sprints just to hear Phil's call.

Paul and Phil are not only the two best English speaking cycling commentators in the biz, but I'd go so far as to say that they are among the best in any sport.

YES! The best thing a commentator can do is make an event seem exciting. There are many times in different sports that if I turned the volume off it would make no difference. Paul and Phil make even grinding on the flats sound exciting. The two things they bring to the table are knowlage of the sport and huge passion. I mean haven't we all played these guys in our heads as we've climbed some redicules climb or sprinted with our buddies?!

I mean haven't we all played these guys in our heads as we've climbed some redicules climb or sprinted with our buddies?!

Absolutely. I've thought that Phil Liggett could make a killing by recording personalized "broadcasts" tailored to the individual's own scenarios. "My goodness me, Joey Bagodonuts (or insert your name here) has just laid the hammer down on Heart Attack Hill. He's making Joey Schmuckatelli suffer like he has never suffered before. Schmuckatelli is certainly resenting that extra pint of beer that he had at the pub last night..."

When I call World Cycling Productions, they use the audios from their race videos as hold music. I can listen to Phil and Paul while I wait to talk to someone, and I have actually been disappointed when they pick up - I was enjoying the race too much!!! That's clearly a testimony to their stellar ability, when you resent being taken off of hold. :beer:

It was said in the late '80's that the three most popular people in American cycling were Greg LeMond, Andy Hampsten, and Phil Liggett. I still remember a race where Phil and Paul were talking about a German pro on T-Mobile (Telecom) who had done the Hawaii Ironman. Udo Bolts, perhaps? Any way, Phil said that the German probably wished that the bicycling segment was the last leg of the race. Phil added that nobody would have to worry about him (Phil) taking up triathlon because he couldn't swim. Paul noted that shouldn't be a problem, as Phil's fans seem to think he could walk on water! That's the best one-liner I've heard from him yet!

Paul and Phil are not only the two best English speaking cycling commentators in the biz, but I'd go so far as to say that they are among the best in any sport.

Agreed.

I agree that Phil and Paul are the best. I was an enthusiastic but ignorant fan of racing when I started watching coverage on OLN a few years ago. After watching just a few races I felt like I had enough understanding to begin to appreciate why teams and individuals were doing what they were doing. I've read a couple of complaints that they dumb down the commentary too much. I, for one, appreciate ever morsel. And I love the tidbits of local flavor they throw in as the races go through different areas, pointing out interesting structures, terrain, agriculture, etc. Let's face it, sprinters stages, barring a flurry of attacks, can get be a little routine until near the end sometimes. Even with a long early breakaway it's usually just a matter of waiting for the peloton to slowly bring them back. It's nice to have some interesting commentary to pass the time. And Bobke cracks me up. I really miss it when he is not there.

Unfortunately, I think our concern will be not so much who will replace Phil but whether there will be any OLN coverage for even him to announce. TDF is the only thing we can be sure of this year, and will they even cover that once Lance retires and Europeans start winning?

Unfortunately, I think our concern will be not so much who will replace Phil but whether there will be any OLN coverage for even him to announce. TDF is the only thing we can be sure of this year, and will they even cover that once Lance retires and Europeans start winning?

This will be up to the promoter in Europe. F1 is in the same situation, there are no US drivers in F1, but the head of F1's promotion (Bernie Ecclestone) has pushed to get F1 exposure to the US. He understands that the US is the biggest market in the world and that can only benifiet F1 and bring in more US sponsor money. If those in charge of the UCI and the ProTour want more US exposure they will strike a deal with OLN just like Bernie did with Speed and CBS.

If you check out the current issue of VeloNews (with the Syringe cover story), you'll see an article on the "hot new announcer", Dave Towle. This guy has been around the sport in various capacities. Now, he has made it clear that his main goal is to be on TV. With Phil and Paul, presumably.

(You can read some of Towle's words at the tourdegeorgia.com website. Let me know if you think he's doing his best to promote himself.)

I wasn't too pleased to see VN pump this guy up at the expense of Jeff Roake. That was pretty bad form, to be honest with you. Roake, though exlusively a LIVE announcer in the US, is definitely on par with Phil and Paul. He was given short shrift in the article. Tacky, for what Jeff's done over the past 20 years.

Still, Phil and Paul are unquestionably the kings.
Long may they reign, because there ain't much on the horizon.

While I like Phil ... I have to add that he's nothing without Paul. I have a tape of one of the one-day races OLN broadcast in 2004 (Amstel Gold I believe) where Phil was the only one on the mike and he had a tough time pulling it off. Alternatively, maybe he was just having a bad day.

-mark

...trying my best to write the way he sounds....

"Phil, these bite-ridas bode-ies are racked with pain now. Look at Ullrich's eyes, a beast of mahn grinding up this climb..."



"Oh, now they are in a spot of bother" :D




tomcat

"...........Absolutely. I've thought that Phil Liggett could make a killing by recording personalized "broadcasts" tailored to the individual's own scenarios. "My goodness me, Joey Bagodonuts (or insert your name here) has just laid the hammer down on Heart Attack Hill. He's making Joey Schmuckatelli suffer like he has never suffered before. Schmuckatelli is certainly resenting that extra pint of beer that he had at the pub last night..."



:roflmao: :beer: :roflmao: :beer: :roflmao:

While I like Phil ... I have to add that he's nothing without Paul. I have a tape of one of the one-day races OLN broadcast in 2004 (Amstel Gold I believe) where Phil was the only one on the mike and he had a tough time pulling it off. Alternatively, maybe he was just having a bad day.

-mark

The commentary by Phil and/or Paul always seems a bit worse on the heavily edited broadcasts.

I agree that they are among the best commentators for any sport. As far as why we don't have our own, I think road racing just isn't big enough in America to justify hiring a "Monday Night Football"-style crew of anchors. I know every country in Europe has their own broadcast, but I think American broadcasters just see it as more cost effective to use Liggett and Sherwin.
There's only one other sport I like to watch on TV, and that's Sumo wrestling. Compared to that cycling is HUGE, so I guess the lack of popularity in this country doesn't bug me as much as some people.

Anyone remember the coverage of the 2003 San Francisco grand prix on OLN?

No Phil or Paul. Just some really loud excitable American who knew little about bike racing and would have a stroke everytime an American moved so much as five feet off the front of the peloton.

My wife in the other room even asked who the yahoo was.

I don't know if anyone remembers the absolutely atrocious English coverage of the summer Olympics in '99(?). I don't remember who it was that was speaking in the US Broadcast but it wasn't Phil or Paul. During the Women's road race, the leader, France's Jeannie Longo was dominating the field. During the commentary of the race, the announcer continued with insult after insult denegrating her performance. He made comments about how unlikeable she is and her demeanor off the field. There was nothing of importance to the race itself or her athletic performance. It was a disgrace.

Anyone remember the coverage of the 2003 San Francisco grand prix on OLN?

No Phil or Paul. Just some really loud excitable American who knew little about bike racing and would have a stroke everytime an American moved so much as five feet off the front of the peloton.

My wife in the other room even asked who the yahoo was.


Now you've got me really curious... Does anyone remember who the commentator was?

Now you've got me really curious... Does anyone remember who the commentator was?

Was it the same guy who did the US Pro Championships with Paul?

Phil and Paul are the bizness. Long may they rule!

I think it may have been bob Costas, but for all I know it was Joe Garagiola... I just remember he was an idiot.

Phil and Paul are really the best; for one thing, they obviously read and are literate, and genuinely witty. Not like the illiterate morons who commentate on football. Bob is hilarious too. I remember he used this expression, "Bling-bling tchotchkes", which referred to the riders throwing their helmets off, and the crowds getting them as souvenirs. I still use that expression. They always come up with amusing things off the top of their heads. Once, some poor guy from Fakta took a header into a ditch and made a huge splash; he was okay, though. One of them said something like, "My, I wonder what the diving judge would say about that." IT's worth watching even the slowest parts of the flat road stages just to listen to them, although sometimes they go on a bit too much about lance. However, I think they do that more for the american audiences and it's not really that bad. ANother thing I like about them is that they're animal lovers and know so much about all kinds of birds or whatever, it's like watching Animal Planet!

While I like Phil ... I have to add that he's nothing without Paul. I have a tape of one of the one-day races OLN broadcast in 2004 (Amstel Gold I believe) where Phil was the only one on the mike and he had a tough time pulling it off. Alternatively, maybe he was just having a bad day.

-mark

Not so, Phil has commentated on a variety of Australia races for as long as I can remember all without Paul (as far as I know). He's usually stuck with some read novice commentator (read clown) but still manages to get the job done in his inimitable way.

Mind you Paul does add a bit of value to the long TDF commentaries...

Met Paul Sherwen in Austin back in the early 80s when he had a (brief?) business relationship with a local bike importer. REALLY nice guy, knowledgeable, friendly, worldly. His low-key color is the perfect balance to Liggett's understated but dramatic and witty, what do we call it, spin-by-spin? Roll is real, so he's good for the sport and the broadcasts. John Tesh was JT: you took what you could get back in the day. Wanted to see Mrs. Tesh (Connie Seleca) in a lycra TT suit...

Just imagine A. Karstens doing the ENTIRE broadcast by himself to get an idea how silly the 80s telecasts were. Plus, who did you have to root for, that goofy Lemond?

Little known facts about Phil & Paul from behind the scenes...

Phil has vision issues. So much that he basically has his TV monitor within a foot or two of his eyes. If you've noticed the last few years that Phil has been making incorrect rider calls when breaks go on a more regular basis; that's why. Lets all pray he never retires as even without good eyes he's the best.

Phil and Paul argue off air during commercial breaks when Paul corrects him on air. Phil argues that it's a visual media and no one really cares if he isn't 100% correct. The terms Tosser & ****** are some common shots that are traded back and forth.

When Bob Roll is working with Phil & Paul (Giro 04) he gets no where near the TV Monitors as Phil & Paul get the good seats. From Bob's angle it's not a problem until they start paying by the word!

The boys are also aware of the Phil and Paul drinking game and make sure to include specific phrases on a regular basis.

Phil and Paul argue off air during commercial breaks when Paul corrects him on air. Phil argues that it's a visual media and no one really cares if he isn't 100% correct. The terms Tosser & ****** are some common shots that are traded back and forth.


In spite of that they are good friends who often vacation together.

An info page on Paul's cycling career:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony-lyons/Cyclists/SherwenP.htm

paper technology degree?

In spite of that they are good friends who often vacation together.

An info page on Paul's cycling career:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony-lyons/Cyclists/SherwenP.htm

I don't doubt they're good friends. From the way Bobke made it sound, it's all in good fun.

When asked Al Trautwig or Kristin Gum - he answered with in or out of prison and then said Al all the way in prison...

If you check out the current issue of VeloNews (with the Syringe cover story), you'll see an article on the "hot new announcer", Dave Towle. This guy has been around the sport in various capacities. Now, he has made it clear that his main goal is to be on TV. With Phil and Paul, presumably.

(You can read some of Towle's words at the tourdegeorgia.com website. Let me know if you think he's doing his best to promote himself.)

I wasn't too pleased to see VN pump this guy up at the expense of Jeff Roake. That was pretty bad form, to be honest with you. Roake, though exlusively a LIVE announcer in the US, is definitely on par with Phil and Paul. He was given short shrift in the article. Tacky, for what Jeff's done over the past 20 years.

Still, Phil and Paul are unquestionably the kings.
Long may they reign, because there ain't much on the horizon.

Yeah, I read this as well, guy seems very enthusiastic but I doubt he has the gravitas of Liggett or Sherwen.

What is the deal with his comments RE: Trautwig? I'm less familiar with Trautwig than I am with Sherwen or Liggett. Are the Trautwig criticisms he mentioned a common critique of Trautwig, or do you just think Towle is gunning for his job, or possibly jealous.

I was pretty surprised to see an up-and-coming commentator speak so harshly of a colleague, lacked class IMHO, but then again I'm not too familiar with Trautwig.

What is Trautwig's background?

The boys are also aware of the Phil and Paul drinking game and make sure to include specific phrases on a regular basis.

Sounds like a fun game! How's it work? I can imagine which phrases might be used, but if anyone has already put some thought in to this game, let's hear the "rules"... :beer:

Sounds like a fun game! How's it work? I can imagine which phrases might be used, but if anyone has already put some thought in to this game, let's hear the "rules"... :beer:

Here you go

Phil & Paul Bingo (http://www.geocities.com/fourlakes_99/home/cycling/pnpbingo.htm)

Thanks - there's a lot of other good information in that site too!

I remember the ads for the Phil and Paul bingo, during the vuelta a couple of years ago. I should point out that "left-tenant" is actually the right pronunciation. The USA is the only country that pronounces it loo-tenant. I actually remember Paul saying F ing hell, he obviously thought the mike was off- there was some screwup with the graphics.

THey forgot one I think: Very Select Group (referring usually to the climbers); A beast of a climb; a cheeky move; pipped on the line; he's absolutely broken.

Well, that's just the way it is. Left-tenant is actually the proper pronunciation. Like COLONEL- you don't pronounce it the way it's written, I hope.

ANd Jo-sheba is also the right way to pronounce it. I think the point is that americans butcher everything! Still, the ad was funny.

:D James Doohan does rule, by the way.

divekrb++

Gotta love watching someone work the jab like. :)

It does give a passing nod to the Brit's and Canadian's bastardization of how it should, by all phonetic right, be properly pronounced. Canadian, BTW, is a language so befouled and bastardized that there are entire web pages devoted to it.
Interesting. Britain and Canada have the pronunciation all wrong, and good old American English is correct. So when the Brits left America to form their own colony they took our language and stuffed it all up? Good thing, because I'd hate to think American pronunciation has any to do with a couple hundred years of foreigners coming in and "Butchering" the language.

lieutenant

lieu

"Loo" in lieu of "left"?

Or is it in "left" of "left"

Perhaps the USA are the only ones who know how to spell? I think you'd be hard pressed to find any english language reference book that would lead you to believe the letters I, E, or U either in combination or individually produce a phonetic "ffffffffffff" .

USA, btw, is really spelled "efthsmd" and pronounced "restricadorf".

It is loo-tenant as in tenant of the loo or one who lives in a ***** house, ergo, one who is full of *****.

Private don d.

It is loo-tenant as in tenant of the loo or one who lives in a ***** house, ergo, one who is full of *****.

Private don d.
:roflmao:

Well language or not it doesn't change the fact that General (pronounced "general") Cornwallis was a puss that got his arse driven back into the Atlantic, and the world is a better place for it.

Could you imagine tea intervals in the middle of the seventh inning of baseball games? Apple pie and bread pudding? BBQ Welsh ******s? Kickers getting paid more than quarterbacks? (shudder)

In fact we inherited the pronounciation from Britain, saw it made no rational sense, and fixed it. It parallels what we did with a form of government that allowed inbred hemopheliacs to summarily lop off your head at a whim, or convict you of a crime and exile you to some godforsaken continent full of poisonous snakes, fresh water crocs, and excellent Syrah.

And while I would point out that in the US of A no one pops out of the womb and is declared President, we stifle our giggles at the continued swearing of allegiance to the floppy-eared bastard offspring of Henry VIII. Our floppy-eared offspring was elected, and is presumed to be legitimate (please move other discussions of said offspring to the political forum).

Look, we even took no offense at the modifications other English speaking (well, sort of) people's made to the finest game ever invented, Football (Cycling still being the finest sport period, and you are welcome). We haven't invaded and forced anyone to play it correctly, though we certainly could have, and with our current administration still might. Only time can tell.

Till that decision is made all we ask is that you avail yourself of a dictionary from time to time before insisting that the old and peculiar is in fact, normal and correct. Applying that logic to cycling would have us all still riding high wheelers, wearing wool knickers, and sporting handlebar moustaches.

(Note to moderator: This post contains two cycling references in hopes that this thread will not be moved...yet)
:roflmao:

Phil and Paul rock. They not only call the game with some class, they are a great complement to each other. I actually think Paul is underrated. He brings an amazing knowledge and a knack for feeling what is really going on to complement Phil's enthusiasm (which sometimes goes a little overboard).

If you listen to Paul sometimes when re-viewing a race/stage, it's amazing how often he'll quietly slip in a little prediction or take note of a little strategy that is going on that seemed insignificant at the time but on review, was amazingly key.

Just two minor nit-picks:


And while I would point out that in the US of A no one pops out of the womb and is declared President, we stifle our giggles at the continued swearing of allegiance to the floppy-eared bastard offspring of Henry VIII.

The current queen lizzy is actually the floppy-eared, horse-faced legitimate descendant of Henry VII, not of Henry VIII at all. His line died out with Elizabeth I at which point James I (James VI of Scotland), the son of the daughter of Henry VII came to the throne and, albeit with a few hiccups, the line meanders to the present time. If you're going to insult the british monarchy, at least get your facts straight :D


Look, we even took no offense at the modifications other English speaking (well, sort of) people's made to the finest game ever invented, Football

I presume you're referring to the sport that the aforementioned Henry VIII banned several times during his reign from which American Football, Rugby and even Soccer are all derived? It was generally played between two villages where the aim of the game was to touch a stuffed pigs bladder against a post planted in the centre of the opposing village and it was notoriously violent. I can't remember the first recorded mention of the game but I think it was sometime in the 1300s but it's generally mentioned in legal notices about banning the game due to villages not having enough fit men left to farm the fields or man the local levy.

As to which version of the language is correct, they both are. They're just two derivations from a common root, just as most modern languages are just derivations of Sanskrit. One dictionary happens to have been written by a dyslexic, the other has been phonetici(s/z)ed.

Obligatory cycling content: I rode my road bike for the first time in 6 weeks this morning and it felt good to be on the road again.

What road did you ride your road bike on when you rode it?

Hey, I had to get the two mentions of 'road' in the comment. The answer to your question is 4th Street, Sir Francis Drake, Magnolia Avenue and then Camino Alto.

Since moving to Oz, I've learnt (correct Aussie spelling) that they have no allegiance to the queen over here. Their greatest fear is becoming the 51st state.