Touring - Brake brand opinions

I'm slowly starting a touring bike build on a Nashbar frame, and I'm making a list of components I'll want to put on it. my last will be my brakes. I'm trying to keep to mnt components. It'll be running butterfly handlebars, twist shifters, and Shimano Alivo drivetrain.

I'm wanting to get mnt brake levers and Cantilever brakes (cartridge pad shoes if possible) and I'll be using 700 x 32c tires.

What are your opinions on the various brands I could look into?

You'd be better off using V brakes with the mtb components (lever). They brake better than cantis and are easier to set-up and maintain.

Avid SD7 calipers are great performers and good value.

I'll have to look into those, I'm out the door now though.

Paul Components (http://www.paulcomp.com/brakes.html) probably makes the best bicycle brakes in the world. I want a set, but I really don't need a set.

Cantis still have a lot of advantages for touring, and if you want to go that route, you can be sure you will have more braking energy, than any of those of us who use drops and road levers.

http://www.paulcomp.com/brakes.html

Go to the Paul components site, and look at their cantis. Forget the cost for now. You will notice the neo retros, and you will see the touring cantis. These are two basic shapes. On the front fork, which is were a lot of your breaking power comes from, you need to choose the canti based on clearances. A neo style works on a wider clearance fork, often welded shoulders, a fork that would accommodate tires well over 35 mm, and maybe nearing on 2". Nashbar's cross/touring fork is in this range, and if their touring fork is similar, you may be in neo territory. Either style works well on the rear, though some people say they hit the neo style back there, so a lot of cross riders run neo front, and touring rear.

On the other hand, if your front fork is a narrow road style with lessor tire clearance, you may find a touring works well front and rear.

Of course, if you don't pay the Paul prices, you will find these shapes available in many different brands. I even bought some Nashbar touring shape brakes that were very similar to the Paul touring, and about 15 bucks a pair, and they worked well.

I run Paul neo, or sometimes Paul up front, and petersen self energizing in the back.

When I bought the neos, I thought they might improve my braking result over some Shimanos I was using that were cheap as dirt plated steel, with a plastic fairing for looks. Basically similar results as far as braking power goes. But Paul is easier to service on the road, and looks really nice. So no, you do not need to have fancy brakes.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=&_osacat=57262&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=Pedersen+&_sacat=57262&_from=R40

Tektro CR-720 you can buy them for about $20.00 per wheel (Treefort Bikes), use short pull ie. road levers. Once set up they're wonderful- powerful, great modulation

Tektro CR-720 you can buy them for about $20.00 per wheel (Treefort Bikes), use short pull ie. road levers. Once set up they're wonderful- powerful, great modulation

he's wanting to use MTB levers.

i'll repeat what someone said earlier; go with the v-brakes. much more powerful than regular cantilever brakes, much easier to set up and adjust on the road, and much easier to find replacement pads for when you're away from home.
i have an avid single digit 7 on the front of my flat bar commuter bike. there's enough difference between the SD7 and the stock tektro that came on it that i ordered SD7s for the front of 2 of my other bikes. on most road style bikes with v-brakes on the rear, the rear triangle flexes before the worst v-brake arm will, so it doesn't make much sense to upgrade the rear brake (unless you find a sweet deal). the fork area is solid enough to notice a difference in braking, though.

With Trekking bars and a grip shifter, I use Magura's HS33. THE Hydraulic Rim Brake.

that it is smooth operating is a given ..made in Germany
the easiest pads in the world to change.. :thumb:

Fits on v/Cantilever bosses , but an an anchor point, not a pivot.

If ~$300 for Magura brakeset is over budget for your Nashbar/Alivio build, then you might consider this Avid SD7 set, $79 including s/h:

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/11986-347_AVD7K0-3-Parts-911-Brakes/Rim/Avid-Single-Digit-7-Brake-2011-W_Avid-Speed-Dial-7-Levers-COMBO.htm

Tektro CR-720 you can buy them for about $20.00 per wheel (Treefort Bikes), use short pull ie. road levers. Once set up they're wonderful- powerful, great modulation
I'm liking the way those Tektro's look and found levers for em' too that will work on trekking bars ^^ (the RT354AG ones) thanks for all the great opinions people!

Btw CycleBum and MassiveD. I agree, those Paulcomp NeoRetro seem excellent! though i'd suggest looking here for em' http://www.jensonusa.com/Cantilever-Brakes?c=C0000DYH

Those are pretty good prices, and they show up at good prices on ebay also. While you would love them, I just mention them as an example of the geometry, there are a ton of Cantis out there.

I'm slowly starting a touring bike build on a Nashbar frame, and I'm making a list of components I'll want to put on it. my last will be my brakes. I'm trying to keep to mnt components. It'll be running butterfly handlebars, twist shifters, and Shimano Alivo drivetrain.

I'm wanting to get mnt brake levers and Cantilever brakes (cartridge pad shoes if possible) and I'll be using 700 x 32c tires.

What are your opinions on the various brands I could look into?

It sounds like you are going with a flat bar. I'd second seeker333's suggestion of v-brakes and a mountain bike lever. Not because the v-brake does a better job than a canti...it doesn't...but because it's far easier to get v-brake levers for a flat bar than it is to get a cantilever brake for a flat bar.

It sounds like you are going with a flat bar. I'd second seeker333's suggestion of v-brakes and a mountain bike lever. Not because the v-brake does a better job than a canti...it doesn't...but because it's far easier to get v-brake levers for a flat bar than it is to get a cantilever brake for a flat bar. actually, I know at the local LBS they have kits that'll convert brake pads to cartridge so no matter what, I'll be also getting those. so I don't think that will be much of a problem

actually, I know at the local LBS they have kits that'll convert brake pads to cartridge so no matter what, I'll be also getting those. so I don't think that will be much of a problem

I think you are confused about the brakes. The cartridge brake pads are only there to allow you to easily slide new pads into holders. It has nothing, really, to do with the type of brake. Cantilever brakes and linear brakes ( same as a v-brakes) use different cable pulls to make the brakes function. You need to match the levers to the brakes. You can use a cantilever lever on a linear brake but you need a device called a Travel Agent to account for the different cable pull.

Because the mountain biking world has run away from cantilevers, finding brake levers for flat bars that work with cantilever brakes can be difficult. Your life will be simpler by going the linear brake route if you are using flat bars.

I think you are confused about the brakes. The cartridge brake pads are only there to allow you to easily slide new pads into holders. It has nothing, really, to do with the type of brake. Cantilever brakes and linear brakes ( same as a v-brakes) use different cable pulls to make the brakes function. You need to match the levers to the brakes. You can use a cantilever lever on a linear brake but you need a device called a Travel Agent to account for the different cable pull.

Because the mountain biking world has run away from cantilevers, finding brake levers for flat bars that work with cantilever brakes can be difficult. Your life will be simpler by going the linear brake route if you are using flat bars.
I did find some levers and brakes that would work for my build (both tektro) and when I need to replace em' I'll hunt down from a lbs (while on the road) or order em' from an online source.
Thanks for the concern.

Also, everyone. Thanks for all the input.

typically if you get the lower price brake, the pad will be molded 1 piece.
when you need to replace those ,. then you can go for the replaceable insert type,
then the 3rd buy can just be the inserts.

The Tektro rt354ag are hands down the best mountain levers I have ever used. The ergonomics and adjust-ability are great along with being able to use v brakes or cantis. I use v brakes on my nashbar touring with a deore up front and bottom of the line shimano in the rear. I have no problem stopping. I am 205lbs, I do fully loaded shopping runs with loaded panniers front and back, and pulling my daughter in a trailer behind me. So all together about 330-345lbs and I stop well from up to about 23mph regularly. The caveat is that I live in florida, so no 40mph downhill crazyness.

You'd be better off using V brakes with the mtb components (lever). They brake better than cantis and are easier to set-up and maintain.

Have to offer a differing opinion... I have run a lot of touring bikes and tandems. When paired with appropriate levers, the Canti's stop a bike far better than v-brakes. So if the touring is just some longer distance, vbrakes are ok if setup well and fitted with good pads. But if touring is to involve hills and some loaded panniers, then canti's are the best answer without a doubt.

Have to offer a differing opinion... I have run a lot of touring bikes and tandems. When paired with appropriate levers, the Canti's stop a bike far better than v-brakes. So if the touring is just some longer distance, vbrakes are ok if setup well and fitted with good pads. But if touring is to involve hills and some loaded panniers, then canti's are the best answer without a doubt.
Yeah, I intended on loaded touring all over (at least California) so I think it'll also involve mountains (not just hills ;) )
Thanks for the clairification.

Basics of leverage.

V brakes combine high MA, demand lots of cable pull for a small motion of pads to rim.
so the lever has to have a much lower MA to provide it.

cantilever brakes, particularly, the L type 'high profile' are lower MA,
so the corresponding brake lever can be a higher MA.

the V brakes have to be set up with a dime's thickness of rim clearance,
or less, so when wheel true goes off optimum, the brakes drag,
then people loosen the brake adjustment to not drag,
then have almost no brakes .. the lever may hit the bars first.

Whereas a cantilever brakepad can sit, a couple nickels stacked,
away from the rim,
so minor imperfections of wheel truing are less of an issue.

Basics of leverage.

V brakes combine high MA, demand lots of cable pull for a small motion of pads to rim.
so the lever has to have a much lower MA to provide it.

cantilever brakes, particularly, the L type 'high profile' are lower MA,
so the corresponding brake lever can be a higher MA.

the V brakes have to be set up with a dime's thickness of rim clearance,
or less, so when wheel true goes off optimum, the brakes drag,
then people loosen the brake adjustment to not drag,
then have almost no brakes .. the lever may hit the bars first.

Whereas a cantilever brakepad can sit, a couple nickels stacked,
away from the rim,
so minor imperfections of wheel truing are less of an issue.

While you've got the mechanics right, you are off on the set up. V-brakes don't need to be set up as close to the rim as you say, unless you happen to be using the wrong brake lever. I have several bikes with v-brakes and all of them are set as far away from the rim as my cantilever equipped bikes are. There is little problem with a linear brake and a wheel going out of true and it's certainly not any different from a cantilever equipped bike.

just been building up MTB's and repairing them for the last couple years, again,
and a lot of other bikes, also with V brakes ..
they are as I described it.

:50: Was wrenching thru the 70s and 80s. in various LBS.
pre V brake years, admittedly.

Folks will tend to ignore pad wear, so after the pads thin out
they still work OK if starting out closer..

If you on your own bike are more on top of it, then it may be as You describe.

L type Cantilevers work better on Muddy CX courses, the rim clearance thing.
and
Given few old ones remained , as the younger riders got into the sport,
so the companies like Spooky , Empella And their copiers at TRP,
began making a new generation of those..

My own touring Bikes had Cantilevers, Mafac, and the Scott SE

now the recent 2 , the HS33 Magura's ,
and the BB7 Disc Brakes

They're on the BiFri .. it gets most use.. back out into the Deluge..

another Veteran of a made up war, .. for Peace.

Have to offer a differing opinion... I have run a lot of touring bikes and tandems. When paired with appropriate levers, the Canti's stop a bike far better than v-brakes. So if the touring is just some longer distance, vbrakes are ok if setup well and fitted with good pads. But if touring is to involve hills and some loaded panniers, then canti's are the best answer without a doubt.

I've never found a setup where this was true... The Avid Shorty 6 canti on my touring bike, combined with road levers, is one of the worst brakes I've ever used! I've tweaked the setup six ways from Sunday and it's never been better than mediocre. I would definitely be using V-brakes if they were an option for me!

Because the mountain biking world has run away from cantilevers, finding brake levers for flat bars that work with cantilever brakes can be difficult. Your life will be simpler by going the linear brake route if you are using flat bars.
Two sets of Shimano flat bar levers that I`ve had in the past were convertable to either long or short pull by just moving a little plastic wedge. Are they no longer made that way?

I`ve been wondering that because I`ve been using SD-7s with straddle-cantis for a couple years and they really don`t work like I expected. I thought I`d be able to dial them in with that pull adjustment they have, but it runs out of adjustment before it gets there. I was thinking maybe I`d have to look for Shimano levers.

Two sets of Shimano flat bar levers that I`ve had in the past were convertable to either long or short pull by just moving a little plastic wedge. Are they no longer made that way?

I`ve been wondering that because I`ve been using SD-7s with straddle-cantis for a couple years and they really don`t work like I expected. I thought I`d be able to dial them in with that pull adjustment they have, but it runs out of adjustment before it gets there. I was thinking maybe I`d have to look for Shimano levers.
I found these, don't know how well they work though http://www.treefortbikes.com/cat/0/453/Brake-Levers-Mtn.html#navbar=pro___333222335586___453

Thanks, Draig. The description really doesn`t clarify, but from the customer comments it sounds like they`re what I was looking for.

BTW, sorry about the hijack!

Ah, it's alright. I feel we're all here to help each other find out things anyways.

just been building up MTB's and repairing them for the last couple years, again,
and a lot of other bikes, also with V brakes ..
they are as I described it.

:50: Was wrenching thru the 70s and 80s. in various LBS.
pre V brake years, admittedly.

Folks will tend to ignore pad wear, so after the pads thin out
they still work OK if starting out closer..



Sorry but you are just wrong about the linear brake setup.I've been using cantilever since I started bicycling in the '70s (matching your agedness;)) and I've been using linear brakes since around their introduction in the 90s. I have several sets of v-brakes and several sets of cantilevers on bikes in my current garage. Both are set up the same way with a similar distance of the pads from the rims. Lever throw on both types of brakes are the same once the brakes are actuated.

Two sets of Shimano flat bar levers that I`ve had in the past were convertable to either long or short pull by just moving a little plastic wedge. Are they no longer made that way?

I`ve been wondering that because I`ve been using SD-7s with straddle-cantis for a couple years and they really don`t work like I expected. I thought I`d be able to dial them in with that pull adjustment they have, but it runs out of adjustment before it gets there. I was thinking maybe I`d have to look for Shimano levers.
Avid Single Digit 7 lever are linear brake levers. They pull too much cable to be useful for cantilevers. The Tektros that draig linked to above or Shimano BL-R550 would work better.

I've never found a setup where this was true... The Avid Shorty 6 canti on my touring bike, combined with road levers, is one of the worst brakes I've ever used! I've tweaked the setup six ways from Sunday and it's never been better than mediocre. I would definitely be using V-brakes if they were an option for me!

Try using Sheldon Brown's guide on setting up cantilevers (http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html). It does work. If you are currently using link wire for the cable, try a traverse wire. I've found them to be much more useful than a link wire because you can change the cable geometry much easier. I'd also suggest a wider straddle cable yoke as well.

I get a kick out of these comment time and again, the OP is building up a $100 frameset and the cheapest Shimano group available and you're telling him to put Paul's brakes on it that will cost more than his entire frame, fork and most of his components together. Ha

Hey and don't forget your Chris King Headset.

You silly people

The Tektro 354AG can pull both V-brake and cantilever with a simple adjustment of the cable's pivot point. I'm using them with Avid BB7 Road disc brakes on my flat bar bike.

How well do they work cale?

How well do they work cale?

As advertised. I guess most folks know if they are going to set up their bike with flat bars or drops. My frame was designed for disc brakes and I wanted to start with a flat bar build with the option to switch to drop bar in the future.

ah, cool. thanks for the info cale

I've got the Paul touring cantilever brakes on my LHT land really love them.I heard that they were difficult to install but they weren't.

You silly people

I agree, see #10 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/853017-Brake-brand-opinions?p=14853127&viewfull=1#post14853127).

Avid Single Digit 7 lever are linear brake levers. They pull too much cable to be useful for cantilevers.
In my previous post I just said "SD7"- not sure if they have a "Single Digit" series lever, but mine are actually the "Speed Dial" model, which have adjustable pull. I used to have that same model on another bike (with linear pull calipers) and liked them, thought the pull adjustment would be enough, but it doesn`t quite make it. Will probably try a different lever, most likely a more period correct piece from our local bike junkyard.

The main reason I didn`t just switch calipers to match the levers is that its an older mtb, not original, but all parts at least from the same era. Except the brake levers :D
I only use it for piddling around, so "close enough" brakes are more an annoyance than a hazzard.

Anyway, I`m glad that levers are still available with dual ratio options.

In my previous post I just said "SD7"- not sure if they have a "Single Digit" series lever, but mine are actually the "Speed Dial" model, which have adjustable pull...

You mean the same levers I linked in #10, Avid Speed Dial levers, only change in over 10 years now is cosmetic.

These levers, like many nicer mtb levers, have an adjustable reach distance to the lever, NOT adjustable cable pull.

It sounds like you've been using std Vee levers (long cable pull) with cantilever calipers (short cable pull) for some time.

^^Adjustable pull, yes. Just not adjustable enough to cover traditional brakes, only for fine tuning on Vs or (I guess) mechanical discs. And yes, I`ve been using them with the wrong calipers.

I would definitely be using V-brakes if they were an option for me!

If you don't like your canti's did you ever consider mini-V brakes? I've got some cross riding friends that prefer them to canti's but again, clearance isn't always optimal.

I had centre-pull brakes on my bike initially (it came with the Tektro ones). When I put on the touring (handle) bars (same diameter as flat bars) I changed the brake arms to direct pull type ("V brakes"). I didn't find the braking any more or less powerful when both types were set up, adjusted well. But, I did find the direct-pull ("V brakes") to be much easier to adjust.

Given that both types of brake lever have essentially the same distance through which they can be pulled, basic leverage principles dictate how 'hard' a brake pad can push on the rim. The closer the static offset (resting position), the greater (in principle) the force which can be applied, because you can, in principle, use a higher lever ratio between the finger and the brake pad. (But of course the lever ratio in the brake lever itself is often not adjustable...). So I doubt very much that 'V brakes' can be shown to be any more, or less, "powerful" in terms of braking, than centre-pull canti's.

I get a kick out of these comment time and again, the OP is building up a $100 frameset and the cheapest Shimano group available and you're telling him to put Paul's brakes on it that will cost more than his entire frame, fork and most of his components together. Ha

Hey and don't forget your Chris King Headset.

You silly people

I wasn't going to mention it but, since you did I have to agree.

I wasn't going to mention it but, since you did I have to agree.

Still, it's nice that your all letting me know what's all out there. as well as when i go upgrade I'll know what I'll want too. (and know what the prices will be, + where to get em')

Basics of leverage.

V brakes combine high MA, demand lots of cable pull for a small motion of pads to rim.
so the lever has to have a much lower MA to provide it.

cantilever brakes, particularly, the L type 'high profile' are lower MA,
so the corresponding brake lever can be a higher MA.

the V brakes have to be set up with a dime's thickness of rim clearance,
or less, so when wheel true goes off optimum, the brakes drag,
then people loosen the brake adjustment to not drag,
then have almost no brakes .. the lever may hit the bars first.

Whereas a cantilever brakepad can sit, a couple nickels stacked,
away from the rim,
so minor imperfections of wheel truing are less of an issue.

I'm not familiar with the abbreviation of "MA" what's that mean?

In my previous post I just said "SD7"- not sure if they have a "Single Digit" series lever, but mine are actually the "Speed Dial" model, which have adjustable pull. I used to have that same model on another bike (with linear pull calipers) and liked them, thought the pull adjustment would be enough, but it doesn`t quite make it. Will probably try a different lever, most likely a more period correct piece from our local bike junkyard.

The main reason I didn`t just switch calipers to match the levers is that its an older mtb, not original, but all parts at least from the same era. Except the brake levers :D
I only use it for piddling around, so "close enough" brakes are more an annoyance than a hazzard.

Anyway, I`m glad that levers are still available with dual ratio options.

My mistake. "Single Digit" is the name that applies to the calipers and Speed Dial is the name that applies to the lever. Speed Dials...at least current models...are for linear brakes, however. You can sometimes find old Speed Dials for cantilever on Fleabay that would of the era.

I'm not familiar with the abbreviation of "MA" what's that mean?

MA means mechanical advantage. Sheldon Brown has a nice explanation. (http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html)

Still, it's nice that your all letting me know what's all out there. as well as when i go upgrade I'll know what I'll want too. (and know what the prices will be, + where to get em')

I personally would advise not getting all that caught up in the "ultimate build" attitude. When it comes down to it the parts that come as standard equipment on touring bikes is a pretty good guide for what is required. The exception might be gearing. It may not be low enough on some bikes.

Just me, but a lot of obsessing over the bike and exactly which parts it has is a waste of time and effort and if anything has a negative impact on the touring experience. Once the bike meets some minimum standard of suitability to the task it has pretty much zero impact of the touring experience.

If the actual touring experience is your goal, don't go crazy over all the hardware choices. They really do not matter all that much as long as they are suitable to the task. I know that when I think back on my tours what I remember are the people, places, and food; not the brand and model of brakes, headset, racks, or bags.

If what you are really into is the bike itself just ignore my comments.

I've never found a setup where this was true... The Avid Shorty 6 canti on my touring bike, combined with road levers, is one of the worst brakes I've ever used! I've tweaked the setup six ways from Sunday and it's never been better than mediocre. I would definitely be using V-brakes if they were an option for me!

I have never used the brake/lever combination you cite, so I can't comment on whether that is an anomoly or the norm for those. And for every successful combo I can probably remember a case or two where it performed poorly. For the Avid's, perhaps changing out the levers would help (or might not). But I will stick with my assessment and again ensure that the qualifiers to that assessment of "with the appropriate levers", with "good pads", and "well setup" are included in the assessment of any brake setup. Basically any brake on one of my bikes that still sucks after taking care of those three aspects is going to get replaced fast. In my experience this has seldom been needed with canti's (no Avid experience), but has happened several times with earlier disk brakes and with most all the low to mid-tier/cost v-bakes. I suspect that the type and size of the rims also has an effect but I haven't spent much time thinking that through. And I am not adverse to replacing or modifying a set of levers to optimize the MA or to change the lever angle to better fit my hands. I acknowledge that many folks want/expect brakes to work well right from the start (without tuning, modifying, adjusting) which is something I have seldom found to be true, especially with off the rack production bikes. Hope this helps explain my original reply/post. It is perfectly fine with me if others have other views or experiences.