Advocacy & Safety - Joggers in bike lanes

I have noticed that some cyclists take issue with joggers in the bike lane. I agree that when joggers have a good, uncrowned sidewalk, as an alternate to running in the street, they should use it. I have also been alive long enough to know that not everyone will do as they should, and that many will not consider the desires of others. I have also found inner peace in not getting all worked up when people do not behave in consideration of me, and only me.

Yesterday, I had an experience on a club ride that will make it my last ride with that club. The behavior of several of the members toward joggers in the street was so egregious, that it so disturbed my sense of inner peace that I did get a bit worked up over it. It started when one young man, who was ironically wearing a “sharethedamnroad.com” jersey, ran a woman off the street near the start of the ride. I witnessed more aggressive behavior toward joggers by this individual, and others in his grouping, along the coast highway, North of San Diego. This route is very popular with cyclists and joggers.

C’mon people. Life is too short to get upset with joggers in “your” bike lane.

Jogger in bike lane=golden opportunity for me to "take the lane".

Well, if it's a pure BIKE lane only then they should NOT be on it, especially if they try and keep the regular US "rules of the road" and try and keep left as a pedestrian should on a regular road when they should instead be keeping to the right. On most if not all trails or lanes ALL users should keep to the right.

If it's actually a MUP then they have every right to be on it. Again, keeping to the right.

I would recommend taking up the issue with your proper city department to try and get a determination of proper use and try and get some enforcement in place if they agree to keep the bike lanes for bikes only.

Joggers in the bike lane should run facing traffic as if on the road, and make room for cyclists. I understand their reasoning for wanting to run on the asphalt bike lane rather than the concrete sidewalk; it's easier on your joints as asphalt is a "flexible" pavement that yields some to impact unlike concrete.

Joggers in the bike lane should run facing traffic as if on the road, and make room for cyclists. I understand their reasoning for wanting to run on the asphalt bike lane rather than the concrete sidewalk; it's easier on your joints as asphalt is a "flexible" pavement that yields some to impact unlike concrete.
This, and I don't care if they jog in the bike lane as long as they don't try to take the center with me as oncoming traffic.

Ya. Ur totally right.

Much of where I live has bike lane and no sidewalk - the bike lane serves as the sidewalk. Sharing seems to work well, but if the joggers will not give up part of the lane (folks like to run side by side) or are running in the same direction that I am riding, it becomes an issue. I just usually slow down and move out into the lane when it is safe to do so.

there are what I call "junior deputies" in every crowd. I like to give everyone as much room as I can, I figure next time they are in their car they might remember that.

Well, if it's a pure BIKE lane only then they should NOT be on it, especially if they try and keep the regular US "rules of the road" and try and keep left as a pedestrian should on a regular road when they should instead be keeping to the right. On most if not all trails or lanes ALL users should keep to the right.

As Kactus does, I find it makes much more sense for the pedestrians to stay on the left side and the bicycles to stay on the right. When I walked my dog on a MUP, I (1) wanted to see the bicycle coming and (2) wanted to make sure that I was always in between the dog and the bicycle (dogs always walk on the left).

For joggers, I assume most the them don't have dogs, but I think it makes i t much safer if both parties are facing each other as far as passing goes. This is particularly true for joggers wearing headphones.

Cheers,
Charles

. . .

C’mon people. Life is too short to get upset with joggers in “your” bike lane.

Wise advise but don't expect the juvenile jerks to take it.

The situation is standard bike lane, paralleled by side walk. Since this is an oceanfront road, and the weather was nice, there was a lot of cycle traffic. There was also a lot of slow speed traffic on the sidewalks, which is a big motivation for the joggers to be on the bike lane. Most were out of the way, and gave more courtesy to the cyclists than I saw coming from this particular group of bikers.

Joggers in the bike lane are great, at least I am less likely to be ticketed for NOT riding in the bike lane.

I only have a problem when there are 2 or 3 joggers, jogging side by side, taking up the entire bike lane. This s especially so if I am forced to go into traffic because the joggers are too oblivious to be aware of their surroundings.

Other than that, I have no problems with joggers on the bike lane. It is easier to run on the softer asphalt that on hard cement sidewalks. I know...I am a runner and so are several members of my family.

Joggers in the bike lane are great, at least I am less likely to be ticketed for NOT riding in the bike lane.

How many tickets have you ever received for NOT riding in the bike lane? Do you know anybody that has?

Did I hear something? Oh, just trolls in the woodwork.

I find that MOST bike lane joggers are courteous. They know they're on our turf and try to stay out of the way. There are always some oblivious jerks, but there are oblivious jerk cyclists, too. I try to live and let live.

How many tickets have you ever received for NOT riding in the bike lane? Do you know anybody that has?

I've actually been pulled over by police around the Alawai (in Honolulu) area for that.

I see quite a few joggers on the bike path and I don't mind them, but if they're in the way, and are listening to their Ipod, they won't hear me. However I have less problems with them than with the stupid roller bladers.

How many tickets have you ever received for NOT riding in the bike lane? Do you know anybody that has?

Hell, there's even video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

^ People keep posting that video, as if it proves anything. That guy is a seriously terrible rider. He keeps running into things! :lol:

Joggers in the bike lane should run facing traffic as if on the road, and make room for cyclists. I understand their reasoning for wanting to run on the asphalt bike lane rather than the concrete sidewalk; it's easier on your joints as asphalt is a "flexible" pavement that yields some to impact unlike concrete. I have heard that but I find it highly implausible. If asphalt yielded significantly under a jogger's shoe, it would be so soft that a cement mixer would leave deep tracks. The extent that it might yield is totally insignificant compared to what is absorbed by the soles of the runner's shoes.

Don in Austin

I have heard that but I find it highly implausible. If asphalt yielded significantly under a jogger's shoe, it would be so soft that a cement mixer would leave deep tracks. The extent that it might yield is totally insignificant compared to what is absorbed by the soles of the runner's shoes.

Don in Austin

You're not a runner (or civil engineer) are you! While it may seem implausible, the deflection caused by the weight of the human foot striking on an asphalt pavement of normal thickness is discernible.

You're not a runner (or civil engineer) are you! While it may seem implausible, the deflection caused by the weight of the human foot striking on an asphalt pavement of normal thickness is discernible.

you have data for this? I did a quick search and couldn't find the compliance of either material. I am pretty sure that the displacement of concrete and asphalt under the weight of a human runner is pretty much the same, and dwarfed by the displacement due to the compliance of the runner's shoes.

What I would have done as a jogger is get up on the sidewalk to let cyclists pass, same as with cars. If there is no adjoining sidewalk, I have a lot more patience with joggers.

The nearby city of Superior has started doing something nice: Adding 18" wide strips of crushed rock along some of the sidewalks. That has the nice effect of getting joggers out of the bike lane. I wouldn't mind so much but for the damned fools who run with their back to traffic on 30+mph descents, then throw big sh*t-fits when a bike passes them.

As for asphalt being softer than concrete, yes it is, but the pounds-per-square-inch required to actually deflect the surface is far in excess of the weight any human being can put into a foot step. Someone some time back proposed a theory that since asphalt *usually* has a rougher surface than concrete, as the sole of the shoe conforms to the surface, that might provide the effect of stepping on a softer surface. If so, putting a texture into concrete could replicate it.

you have data for this? I did a quick search and couldn't find the compliance of either material. I am pretty sure that the displacement of concrete and asphalt under the weight of a human runner is pretty much the same, and dwarfed by the displacement due to the compliance of the runner's shoes.

I'm not sure if studies have been done to measure the deflection caused by a runner or if it is quantifiable with common testing, but all asphalt pavements deflect at a far greater rate than concrete which is classified as a "rigid" pavement and it is discernible by a person. The concrete sidewalk will be be faster than the asphalt bike lane by returning more energy to the runner rather than transferring it into the pavement underlayment but the concrete feels harder. It's the same principle as to why given similar surface smoothness, a concrete roadway will give a car slightly greater fuel economy than an asphalt roadway.

As for asphalt being softer than concrete, yes it is, but the pounds-per-square-inch required to actually deflect the surface is far in excess of the weight any human being can put into a foot step. Someone some time back proposed a theory that since asphalt *usually* has a rougher surface than concrete, as the sole of the shoe conforms to the surface, that might provide the effect of stepping on a softer surface. If so, putting a texture into concrete could replicate it.

That may be part of the reason! Studies have shown that a difference in surface roughness has a greater effect on fuel economy than a difference in surface deflection.

I (literally) ran into a very annoying jogger once. He was jogging on the right side of the road. When I got close to him, I rang my bell to alert him that I'm coming and please stay your course. Then as I was just about to pass him, he made an abrupt LEFT TURN to cross to the left of the road in front of me! Thank God I was not riding very fast and immediately braked with a instinctive scream. He calmly uttered a "sorry" and continued his way. I wish I was riding fast and did not stop :(

They are another reason, why I don't use bike lanes.

How many tickets have you ever received for NOT riding in the bike lane? Do you know anybody that has?


I've actually been pulled over by police around the Alawai (in Honolulu) area for that.Which is a door zone bike lane by the way. The traffic lanes there are only 9-10 feet wide for the roadway, making the bike lane very unsafe.

In CA (and I believe most states), the law does not restrict cyclists to bike lanes only. If anyone here were to get ticketed for it, it would be a good opportunity to go to court armed with the relevant sections of the Vehicle Code (in CA it is Sec.21202), and embarrass one belligerent cop.

Which is a door zone bike lane by the way. The traffic lanes there are only 9-10 feet wide for the roadway, making the bike lane very unsafe.

Have you received any tickets for avoiding those "unsafe" bike lanes?

I've had a head on (well, shoulder to shoulder) collision with a guy walking in a bike lane once. He was walking on the left:
1 - facing traffic
2 - after dark
3 - in the bike lane
4 - adjacent to an empty sidewalk......

Even with my light (this was 15 years ago, when lumens were...negligible at best), I didn't see him until I was almost on top of him, and he clearly wasn't paying enough attention to see me, either. I hit his right should with my right shoulder as I tried to veer around him. Didn't quite knock him down, and I managed to not fall over either.

In CA (and I believe most states), the law does not restrict cyclists to bike lanes only. If anyone here were to get ticketed for it, it would be a good opportunity to go to court armed with the relevant sections of the Vehicle Code (in CA it is Sec.21202), and embarrass one belligerent cop.

In Maryland, it says to use a bike lane when possible. That in and of itself, is ambiguous at best. Just like their saying to stay "as close as practicable" to the right hand side of the road.

Both are a judgment call on the part of the cyclist. Yet a lot of motorists' just don't 'get it'. Many motorists' in Maryland think that, a cyclist has to 'ride in the gutter', without fail, or, stay in a bike lane, without fail. Regardless of anything going on around the cyclist.

Have you received any tickets for avoiding those "unsafe" bike lanes?As the other poster noted he, and yes myself, have been stopped and had to talk our way out of tickets. I and many cyclist have been run off the road for not riding in this particular bike lane. So do you have a point or are you just being your normal troll self again?

In Maryland, it says to use a bike lane when possible. That in and of itself, is ambiguous at best. Just like their saying to stay "as close as practicable" to the right hand side of the road.

Both are a judgment call on the part of the cyclist. Yet a lot of motorists' just don't 'get it'. Many motorists' in Maryland think that, a cyclist has to 'ride in the gutter', without fail, or, stay in a bike lane, without fail. Regardless of anything going on around the cyclist.

Yea , here in Queensland we get
You should:


always use a bicycle lane where provided, unless it is impracticable to do so



who defines what is practical :rolleyes:

avoid hanging things off the handlebars.

Is a good one too :p who writes these dam thing, "you can ride on the road or the bike path or the fence if you feel like it and it is practical ....."

I'm not sure if studies have been done to measure the deflection caused by a runner or if it is quantifiable with common testing, but all asphalt pavements deflect at a far greater rate than concrete which is classified as a "rigid" pavement and it is discernible by a person. The concrete sidewalk will be be faster than the asphalt bike lane by returning more energy to the runner rather than transferring it into the pavement underlayment but the concrete feels harder. It's the same principle as to why given similar surface smoothness, a concrete roadway will give a car slightly greater fuel economy than an asphalt roadway.

Agreeing with you. You can verify experimentally by slapping asphalt and concrete with your bare hand -- you will find the concrete stings more.

I'm a little rusty on this but here goes: materials deflect (or strain) a finite amount when loaded (or stressed). The ratio of stress needed to cause a given amount strain is the elastic modulus, which varies based on material and temperature. Bottom line -- asphalt deflects not much under the load of an impacting running shoe, but ten times more than concrete. This is microscopic in scale.

Ok, now to impact or impulse -- when a shoe hits a surface, it comes to a sudden stop or deceleration. In the case of a hard surface, the deceleration is in the hundreds of g's (for the material adjecent to the surface). I'll spare you the F=ma and dF/dt equations, but the harder the surface, the less the deflection, and the higher the impact.

Now to shock absorbing properties of running shoes -- this partially but not totally dampens the difference in impact between asphalt and concrete. The increased impact of concrete over thousands of cycles results in increased fatigue and injury rates.

Proof, empirical and theoretical, is left to the reader.

As the other poster noted he, and yes myself, have been stopped and had to talk our way out of tickets. I and many cyclist have been run off the road for not riding in this particular bike lane. So do you have a point?
Point is: You are belly aching again about getting bike lane tickets that you have never gotten. But then again, you are always finding a reason to be bellyaching about the evils of bike lanes.

I used to get really bothered by it but just kind of came to accept it over the years. It's one thing if they are jerks about it but most of the time they are easily avoidable and life is too short to get worked up over little things like that.

Point is: You are belly aching again about getting bike lane tickets that you have never gotten. But then again, you are always finding a reason to be bellyaching about the evils of bike lanes.I do not like bile lanes for all the glass, rubbish they collect, the intersection problems they cause, the harassment by motorist and police the create, the time wasted explaining to police why a was riding legally, the tickets that several here have gotten or posted about, being forced off the road because I was not in the bike lane, etc. A bike forum seems to be the proper place to note all these problems with bike lanes.

So just go back to your pointless trolling in bellyaching about John.

PS - my first post in this thread that you whined about, had no bellyaching in it.

Proof, empirical and theoretical, is left to the reader.
I see what you did there. ;)

I tend to treat joggers in the bike lane the same way I would hope motorist would treat me in the street.

I see what you did there. ;)

You picked up on the preemptive twit blow-off mechanism? :)

Agreeing with you. You can verify experimentally by slapping asphalt and concrete with your bare hand -- you will find the concrete stings more.

I'm a little rusty on this but here goes: materials deflect (or strain) a finite amount when loaded (or stressed). The ratio of stress needed to cause a given amount strain is the elastic modulus, which varies based on material and temperature. Bottom line -- asphalt deflects not much under the load of an impacting running shoe, but ten times more than concrete. This is microscopic in scale.

Ok, now to impact or impulse -- when a shoe hits a surface, it comes to a sudden stop or deceleration. In the case of a hard surface, the deceleration is in the hundreds of g's (for the material adjecent to the surface). I'll spare you the F=ma and dF/dt equations, but the harder the surface, the less the deflection, and the higher the impact.

Now to shock absorbing properties of running shoes -- this partially but not totally dampens the difference in impact between asphalt and concrete. The increased impact of concrete over thousands of cycles results in increased fatigue and injury rates.

Proof, empirical and theoretical, is left to the reader.

You probably do more impact hopping up and down one curb, than you do running miles of concrete instead of asphalt.

Your mileage may vary.

I only have a problem when there are 2 or 3 joggers, jogging side by side, taking up the entire bike lane. .

This.
And the people who get mad when you ring the bell before you pass. "I'M NOT MOVING OVER!!"
It's a warning that I'm behind you, not a demand for you to move over.

Our dedicated bike lanes are multi-use here, and I respect that of course.

Shouldn't joggers wear helmets when jogging with bikes nearby?:rolleyes:

I never had problems with joggers. They usually wave, too. Walking pedestrians, on the other hands, are usually more clueless of their surroundings and annoying in groups. If I see joggers in the bike lane, I give them the right-of-way.

There's a right turn only lane to the left of one of the few bike lanes I see. It's a stupid bike lane that lasts for less than a minute. I never need to turn right at those spots, so I never use it. It just seems unsafe to do so with all the 4-way intersections and heavy traffic in that area with the mall and other businesses. There are two straight lanes to the left of the right turn only lane, so I just stay in the right straight lane.

I never had problems with joggers. They usually wave, too. Walking pedestrians, on the other hands, are usually more clueless of their surroundings and annoying in groups. If I see joggers in the bike lane, I give them the right-of-way.

There's a right turn only lane to the left of one of the few bike lanes I see. It's a stupid bike lane that lasts for less than a minute. I never need to turn right at those spots, so I never use it. It just seems unsafe to do so with all the 4-way intersections and heavy traffic in that area with the mall and other businesses. There are two straight lanes to the left of the right turn only lane, so I just stay in the right straight lane.

Hmm. Thinking about it I have worse problems with walkers, worst of all those with baby strollers. And amoung the joggers it is the ones who cannot be called runners who are the most apt to be problems.

Overall msot are fine, even walkers. The problem is that one cannot be reasonably sure jsut which one will be a problem until it is too late. Something worth considering in our interactions with cars as it seems to me the same holds for people riding bikes.

Hmm. Thinking about it I have worse problems with walkers, worst of all those with baby strollers. And amoung the joggers it is the ones who cannot be called runners who are the most apt to be problems.

Overall most are fine, even walkers. The problem is that one cannot be reasonably sure just which one will be a problem until it is too late. Something worth considering in our interactions with cars as it seems to me the same holds for people riding bikes.Most motorist seem to assume cyclist with helmets know how to ride and cyclist without helmets will suddenly jump in front of them.

In CA (and I believe most states), the law does not restrict cyclists to bike lanes only. If anyone here were to get ticketed for it, it would be a good opportunity to go to court armed with the relevant sections of the Vehicle Code (in CA it is Sec.21202), and embarrass one belligerent cop.
What about Sec.21208?

In CA (and I believe most states), the law does not restrict cyclists to bike lanes only. If anyone here were to get ticketed for it, it would be a good opportunity to go to court armed with the relevant sections of the Vehicle Code (in CA it is Sec.21202), and embarrass one belligerent cop.

As Ninety5rpm pointed out, in CA we are required to ride within bike lanes when they are present (except in certain conditions as called out in 21208). I was unaware of this myself until Bek clued me in.

It's not enforced that I'm aware of, and many people including myself routinely ride outside of the bike lanes without a hassle.