Training & Nutrition - Power Training Question (Mean Maximal Power Curve)
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10-30-12, 03:28 PM
Looking at my mean maximal power curve, I have weaknesses in the 30sec to 60sec range and also the 8min to 15min range where my power drops off significantly (near vertical drop).
30 sec: 620W
60 sec: 410W
8 min: 340W
15 min: 280W
The rest of my curve is somewhat flat.
Question: Do I focus on training the 8-15min first, then the 30-60sec, or vice versa, or both at same time during weekly trng sessions?
10-30-12, 05:07 PM
Rather than type out all the questions and information that's needed to properly answer this, I'll just point you to this: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1934030554
Read it, it'll answer your questions.
10-30-12, 10:20 PM
Thanks, I've read the book, couldnt find anything about this specific situation. I'm looking for more anecdotal/trial and error examples for others. I'm looking for any insight about which energy system 30-60sec or 8-15min I should work on building first.
For example, if I build the 30-60sec system first, will it negate any trng I do for the 8-15min energy system? Would make sense that it does, but wanted to get others ideas.
I know folks typically build an aerobic base of 6-8 wks before doing any anaerobic trng or your anaerobic power becomes limited (in theory), just wondering if same applies to these 2 systems.
10-31-12, 09:42 AM
What are you training for?
How are you determining where you have a weakness? Using the "e-wang" (category vs w/kg) chart?
Are you doing focused testing or cherry-picking for the different time periods? A big step in the mean max power chart is often because you're just not doing max efforts longer than that time period. Low 1 min power is often because you don't do intervals that length.
Normally one trains longer periods first, because the response takes longer and the fitness lasts longer. As you approach your peak you shift to shorter time periods (more intensity) to build that fitness, while trying to not lose the more endurance based fitness.
But it really depends on what you're training for. Have you read Friel and planned out a season?
I'm not sure that not having aerobic fitness limits anaerobic power. But if you're lacking aerobic fitness you'll burn more anaerobic matches during the race and not have them when you need them.
10-31-12, 01:59 PM
Great info, thank you! Basically doing "all-rounder" training, so I could enter a stage race and do well w/ the distance, hills, TT, etc. I'm fairly strong in hills and long efforts, but lack any snap in my legs for short (<2-3min efforts) for breakaways.
Yes, I'm basically cherry picking the time periods. Read in Hunter Allen's book that large vertical drops show weakness in those areas, so I figured I would target those areas.
I've read Friel's book, but I'll read it again. I'm not convinced that periodicity is the way I want to set up my training plan (hence, I would start a 6-8 wk period now of base building and strength work). I've been doing basically endurance, LT, AC, etc in small parts every week. I basically do 1 session of each every wk:
- Anaerobic drills/intervals
- Strength trng
- Long ride/aerobic
10-31-12, 05:44 PM
That was the old way to do it, back when all we had was Eddie B's book. It burnt me out. I like periodization a lot better just for the mental freshness aspect. And I think on my peaks I am doing significantly better than I did on a try to be fit all the time plan. My race results are better (but it's been 20+ years and a lot has changed, so its not that great a measure).
That said I don't subscribe to the strict Z2 only during base theory either.
Before you decide that you suck at time period X, do a dedicated test and then use the e-wang chart. And look at the discussion about it in Coggan... he uses it to show different athlete types, i.e. sprinter vs time trialer. There is only so much of your natural type that you can change. For example I can do a ton of sprint workouts and weight lifting and it won't turn ectomorph me into a sprinter. It'll just make me suck a bit less so I can get 12th instead of 20th in the field sprint. Sometimes its better to race to your strengths.
It's not unusual for people to suck at 1 min on the e-wang even if they do 1 min tests. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just that most people don't do that interval in training but the more of the people Coggan used to generate the e-wang chart did.
If you read the wattage list there are people who do intensity all year round. I think a lot of them are on trainers in the winter and structured workouts are the only way to maintain sanity. But some of them are national champs so it cant be too bad (modulo the idea that they'd probably be champs even if they did JRA).
10-31-12, 06:04 PM
How long have you been riding with power? I suspect the drop in power from 8 to 15 min is due to an artifact of your testing rather than something lacking in your training. If you test properly you should see your mm curve approach the critical power curve derived from a combination of your threshold power and anaerobic work capacity. To get the curve you do a couple of all out tests at something like 3 and 15 minutes and plug them into a calculator. You should be able to achieve the points on the curve if you do all out tests at different time periods.
Have you started racing yet?
11-02-12, 04:02 AM
Thanks everybody. Great info.
I just got my power meter about 2 wks ago, taking it out on "coffee shop" rides as well as dedicated trng sessions.
I have never raced, just goofed around on group rides.
1. How do I do a proper power test?
2. What is the "e-wang" chart?
11-02-12, 01:39 PM
Coggan explains how to do a test.
The e-wang chart is the chart in Coggan that shows w/kg for 5sec, 1 min, 20min, ftp, and on the left has different racer categories from pro to untrained. Don't take the categories too seriously. Having a "cat 3" ftp doesn't mean that you're strong enough to be a cat 3, even taking into account that there's lots that go into racing besides how strong you are. They're for comparison purposes, as explained in the book.
11-02-12, 03:21 PM
Thanks. In WKO+, I only register for 5min and FT, not 5 sec and 1 min. I've read here it's b/c my power values dont even reach the values for "untrained", which I understand...but, not sure if this is this an area of "weakness" I should work on.
11-02-12, 06:16 PM
You need to do the tests before you decide that you suck. Especially for 1 min. 1 min efforts are unusual in races, group rides and JRA. I get my best 5 sec intervals from sprints on group rides, but I am really bad at short solo intervals. I need competition to motivate me.
You should try the tests yourself. Do the protocol in Coggan.
11-02-12, 11:56 PM
If you want to find your weakness just go race a few times. You don't need a power profile to race. You can look at the data after a few races and start to figure out what to work on. For now you'd be well advised to find botto's sticky in the racking sub-forum: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/380788-New-to-Racing-Here-s-a-tip-or-two
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