Bicycle Mechanics - Cup and Cone Bottom bracket inquiry

original bottom bracket on 84 schwinn high sierra is just a touch rough. didnt notice it while riding, only when spinning cranks by hand with chain off. not sure if I should try to replace with cartridge, do nothing, or try to service. how do I determine which way to go?

thanks

The first step would be to try to service it. Servicing it could be a simply as just adjusting it, cleaning it up and relubing it, or replacing the bearings. You could take it to a shop or DYI. If you want to DYI, you need to determine what tools you need. You'll need three bicycle-specific tools at the minimum. Post closeup pics and we can get started on tool selection.

I'm always for diy. will get pics soon. i have a crank puller but not a c-spanner . it looks like the adjustable cup has wrench flats, i think.

It's just going to get worse and worse if it's rough. The metal's started to crumble. Either a cartridge or a stock replacement would be fine but the cup and cone style bb's longevity will totally depend on proper adjustment.

picture
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Looks like you only need a crank puller. A large Crescent wrench for the cup and a pair of Channel Lock pliers for the lock ring. Remember, the drive side is loosened in a clockwise direction and the left side is counterclockwise.

If the bracket axle is good, you can get new cups and bearings for about $10.00. A cartridge is nice, but they don't always fit in nice on an older bike. I had a bear of a time on a Trek 360.

Pull the cranks, remove the non-drive side lockring and adjustable cup as oddjob2 recommended and then pull out the spindle and bearings. Don't remove the fixed cup yet as you can clean and work on it through the bb shell.

If the spindle's and cups' bearing tracks are smooth, just clean everything and replace the bearing balls. Loose balls can be used in place of retainer held balls but you will need a couple of extras per side. "Glue" the balls in place with a bead of grease to hold them in position as you place them in the cups. Add the spindle, thread in the adjustable cup, add the lockring, adjust for minimal to no play and tighten the lockring.

If the spindle or cups are damaged, the easiest replacement is a cartridge. Removing the fixed cup requires a specific tool or it can be clamped in a bench vise and the frame used as the turning lever. Remember the fixed cup is left-hand threaded.

You don't want any play. It should have a little preload that you can feel as drag with your fingers.

http://draco.nac.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.8.html

If the spindle's and cups' bearing tracks are smooth, just clean everything and replace the bearing balls. Loose balls can be used in place of retainer held balls but you will need a couple of extras per side.
Is there a standard size for loose bearing balls in bottom brackets? Or at least a common size?

I know front hubs usually take 3/16" and back hubs normally use 1/4", but I have no idea what size to get for BB's.

Edit: link in above post makes it sound like between 9 and 11 1/4" balls?

Is there a standard size for loose bearing balls in bottom brackets? Or at least a common size?

I know front hubs usually take 3/16" and back hubs normally use 1/4", but I have no idea what size to get for BB's.

Edit: link in above post makes it sound like between 9 and 11 1/4" balls?

Yes and no. The vast majority of loose-bearing bottom brackets use 1/4" ball bearings, available anywhere. Bicycle shops typically sell them in retainers, for ease of installation if nothing else. Cheap retainers have 9, 1/4" balls, more expensive retainers have 11, 1/4" balls.

I think the spindle would go bad first.

I have put cartridges in Taiwan Schwinn frames and they fit fine. Just get the right length and offset.

I have a feeling you may not be able to tighten the lockring enough on an old style cup and spindle set with pliers. A plumber's wrench is another substitute you can use but a hook spanner isn't that much money.

Just get the right [cartridge] length and offset.
Dumb question, if I have a bike whose BB is shot and I want to replace with a cartridge, how do I go about finding out which size I need to order?



Yes and no. The vast majority of loose-bearing bottom brackets use 1/4" ball bearings, available anywhere. Bicycle shops typically sell them in retainers, for ease of installation if nothing else. Cheap retainers have 9, 1/4" balls, more expensive retainers have 11, 1/4" balls.
But the 9-ball and 11-ball retainers are the same diameter, and it's just the # of balls that differs? In other words, there aren't different race sizes and retainer sizes to worry about?



Loose balls can be used in place of retainer held balls but you will need a couple of extras per side.
Is there anything specific I should keep in mind if I'm using loose balls rather than a retainer? I just add a couple extra balls until it "looks pretty full"? I'm just scared to ever try it without a retainer, cuz I learned hub overhauling from reading Sheldon Brown, who wrote to be very very careful about the number of balls that go in the race. ("If there is one too many [balls], the wheel will tilt slightly one way and another after installation, and can not be trued.") I just want to make sure I can't goof up a bottom bracket somehow.

Sorry for the thread sidetrack, I just have similar questions and I didn't want to bother starting a whole new thread. Thank you all for the help, by the way.

Dumb question, if I have a bike whose BB is shot and I want to replace with a cartridge, how do I go about finding out which size I need to order?


Remove crankarms & measure the length of the spindle from end-to-end. It's the only way to be certain. Your Schwinn High Sierra is English thread, and I'd bet the BB spindle is 122.5 or 124mm in length.



But the 9-ball and 11-ball retainers are the same diameter, and it's just the # of balls that differs? In other words, there aren't different race sizes and retainer sizes to worry about?


Exactly.



Is there anything specific I should keep in mind if I'm using loose balls rather than a retainer? I just add a couple extra balls until it "looks pretty full"? I'm just scared to ever try it without a retainer, cuz I learned hub overhauling from reading Sheldon Brown, who wrote to be very very careful about the number of balls that go in the race. ("If there is one too many [balls], the wheel will tilt slightly one way and another after installation, and can not be trued.") I just want to make sure I can't goof up a bottom bracket somehow.

Sorry for the thread sidetrack, I just have similar questions and I didn't want to bother starting a whole new thread. Thank you all for the help, by the way.

Fill the cup, using the spindle to push the balls into place and grease to keep them there. "Enough" is the number of balls it takes to fill it, minus one. You don't want them rubbing against one another.

After you drop a bearing ball inside the frame for the fifth time in a row you'll understand why bike mechanics like retainers over loose balls.

If you are trying to maintain the bike as original, than you can do the BB service, if not you can pick up a cartridge BB http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-BB-UN26-Square-Bracket-68x113-mm/dp/B001IOW41U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1351749941&sr=8-2&keywords=shimano+square+taper+bottom+bracket install it and forget it.. personally I like loose ball, but I also have a lot of time on my hands.

The big thing for me is to use plenty of sticky grease to keep the balls in place as you work. Tweezers are a good tool to have once your fingertips get greasy.

The big thing for me is to use plenty of sticky grease to keep the balls in place as you work. Tweezers are a good tool to have once your fingertips get greasy.
For working inside an installed fixed cup, tweezers are more than "good", they are essential if you don't want to drive your self crazy positioning loose bearing balls. :)

Is there anything specific I should keep in mind if I'm using loose balls rather than a retainer? I just add a couple extra balls until it "looks pretty full"? I'm just scared to ever try it without a retainer, cuz I learned hub overhauling from reading Sheldon Brown, who wrote to be very very careful about the number of balls that go in the race. ("If there is one too many [balls], the wheel will tilt slightly one way and another after installation, and can not be trued.") I just want to make sure I can't goof up a bottom bracket somehow.

Sorry for the thread sidetrack, I just have similar questions and I didn't want to bother starting a whole new thread. Thank you all for the help, by the way.

sheldon has a pretty good set of instructions for putting it back together with loose balls. you may have already seen it
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbadj.html

once I get this thing apart, I'll decide if I want to go with the cartridge or old style. mostly depends on spindle and cup damage. I have the tool needed to install a cartridge, but I have yet to remove a fixed cup and this one may be on there pretty tight. a new adventure either way

I have the tool needed to install a cartridge, but I have yet to remove a fixed cup and this one may be on there pretty tight. a new adventure either way
If you have a decent bench vise, you can clamp the flats on the fixed cup in the jaws and use the frame as your lever to unthread it, left-hand threads as you probably already know.

Otherwise, if you have, or can borrow, a commercial fixed cup wrench, look in the "Homemade Tools" thread for a description of some aids to keep it from slipping.

Remove crankarms & measure the length of the spindle from end-to-end. It's the only way to be certain. Your Schwinn High Sierra is English thread, and I'd bet the BB spindle is 122.5 or 124mm in length.I would also measure each side from the center of the frame to see if your crankset requires a bottom bracket with offset.

If you do get a cup and cone bb, be sure to regrease it every now and then unless you buy one with seals around the spindle. Unsealed bottom brackets like the stock one you had depend on the grease to catch any grit that gets around the spindle but if it gets wet or oiled or wet with soapy water that can emulsify the grease, or even if it's just not regreased often enough, the grit will work its way in to where the bearing balls roll.

If you have a decent bench vise, you can clamp the flats on the fixed cup in the jaws and use the frame as your lever to unthread it, left-hand threads as you probably already know.


ha, i have been going through people i know attempting to find one with a bench vise. first time i've ever found facebook useful.

ha, i have been going through people i know attempting to find one with a bench vise. first time i've ever found facebook useful.

The vise trick can work, but it can be difficult to find a vise with nice sharp ends. The fixed cut flats are really thin. Likewise the bike can slip out its grip and you can end up with scratched paint or with getting smacked in the face by the bike you are leaning on. So the lesson is; using the real tool is always a better answer if possible. Almost any LBS will have one and would likely break the cup free for you and charge maybe $10 to do it. Then after you get it all back together you will need to have them tighten it for you, so another $10. You can get the Park branded tool with the pin spanner on the other end for less than that:

$17.55 w/ free 2 day shipping here:

http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-HCW-4-Spanner-Wrench/dp/B000AOA2G8/ref=sr_1_14?s=cycling&ie=UTF8&qid=1351870901&sr=1-14&keywords=tool+bottom+bracket

While you are there...might want to look for other bike tools you will eventually need; A crank bolt tool, a crank extractor, a cassette remover, and definately a pedal wrench and maybe a set of cone wrenches if you wheels are not all sealed bearing ones....

Post more questions as they arise. Folks here are glad to help.

Thanks kisisler for showing me the tool. I already have most of the others you mentioned. Not a pedal wrench though. My box end wrenches have never failed with pedals.

I have a giant adjustable wrench that I think would fit, would it be a big step down from the park tool below?


The vise trick can work, but it can be difficult to find a vise with nice sharp ends. The fixed cut flats are really thin. Likewise the bike can slip out its grip and you can end up with scratched paint or with getting smacked in the face by the bike you are leaning on. So the lesson is; using the real tool is always a better answer if possible. Almost any LBS will have one and would likely break the cup free for you and charge maybe $10 to do it. Then after you get it all back together you will need to have them tighten it for you, so another $10. You can get the Park branded tool with the pin spanner on the other end for less than that:

$17.55 w/ free 2 day shipping here:

http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-HCW-4-Spanner-Wrench/dp/B000AOA2G8/ref=sr_1_14?s=cycling&ie=UTF8&qid=1351870901&sr=1-14&keywords=tool+bottom+bracket

While you are there...might want to look for other bike tools you will eventually need; A crank bolt tool, a crank extractor, a cassette remover, and definately a pedal wrench and maybe a set of cone wrenches if you wheels are not all sealed bearing ones....

Post more questions as they arise. Folks here are glad to help.

I have a giant adjustable wrench that I think would fit, would it be a big step down from the park tool below?

Probably not that much if it's really nice, but if there's play on the sliding jaw it'll likey end in tears.

That big adjustable wrench is more likely to slip off of the flats than a "real" fixed cup wrench and should have at least the same clamping arrangement as the proper tool. I believe a decent quality vise is a far better tool than the adjustable.

thanks for everyone's help

I got the old bb out. lockring was the most difficult, woulndt budge. so i sprayed it with pb blaster, sprayed a bunch down the seat tube as well. waited a few days and struggled a bit but got it off with channel lock pliers. fixed cup actually came off easy with my cheapo adjustable wrench. spindle and cups are pitted. leaning towards a cartridge for replacement.

thanks for everyone's help

I got the old bb out. lockring was the most difficult, woulndt budge. so i sprayed it with pb blaster, sprayed a bunch down the seat tube as well. waited a few days and struggled a bit but got it off with channel lock pliers. fixed cup actually came off easy with my cheapo adjustable wrench. spindle and cups are pitted. leaning towards a cartridge for replacement.

Good job! Now measure as has been told. What brand of crankset is it?

Plus, this might be a shortcut: Are there any markings on your dead spindle? Give 'em up, if there are. You can usually (Edit: change that to "sometimes") directly cross-reference a cartridge BB from Japanese spindle markings.

it's a sugino. tgt i think. spindle says 3u iirc.

From Sutherland's, for the 3U BB spindles the length is 124.5 mm and the SER (Shell to End Right) is 32.5 mm, for 68 mm shell width. The SER is interesting because it is the distance from the right face of the BB shell to the right end of the spindle. In Shimano cartridge BBs there isn't an exact match. The lengths of the closest cartridge BBs is 122.5 (SER 28 mm) for the Shimano NL length, and 127.5 mm length (30.5 mm SER) for the EL length.

So your original spindle may place the crank 2 mm farther away from the center than the widest EL Cartridge BB. You can try that and see if it works. If you measure the chainline and think it's too far offset to teh center, think the crank to chainstay clearance is too small, or have shifting issues on the smaller cogs, perhaps try spacing the EL cartridge BB to the right with a 2 mm spacer. Using the 127.5 mm EL BB you'll have a wider Q factor than the spindle, by 3 mm.

I can't say these fitting discrepancies will cause you any problems or discomfort. They are differences, and some would think they are significant. YMMV.

But double-check if it says "3U."

If you can find a JIS 68 mm BB length 124.5, it's worth a try.

it's a sugino. tgt i think. spindle says 3u iirc.The crank is a TGT (or Triple GT). The BB spindle has a Japanese code for the length; you can find the below chart at http://sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

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Wow Roadfan, thanks for walking through all that for me. I was trying to get it all straight in my head last night using the chart one speed biker posted above but pulled the trigger on a 127.5-68 before I had it sorted out as well as I do now after reading your post. The thing that threw me off a little on that chart was the symmetrical equivalent being 133. i took that to mean i should find a 133 spindle cartridge which of course does not exist.

hopefully the one i ordered will work out. i suspect i'm not too sensitive to the old quack factor. we shall see

.......but pulled the trigger on a 127.5-68.......

That's the way I would have went.

You can get a Sugino 3-S from
loosescrews.com
which would basically get you in the same place as the 127.5 cartridge. (3mm short on the DS)
By the time you pay for new cups (if you can find them), you're up into the price of a cartridge anyway.

Chris, that should work well for you, possibly with some shimming.

Bill Kapaun suggests a Sugino 3S, and that would be a good choice to try if you can also buy a new set of cups - you said they were pitted, too. They're not too dear on loosescrews, if I recall. And cup/cone BBs will not need replacement if you overhaul them once a year or so. Clean insides and clean grease is the key. I've seen a wide range of spindles on the Niagara site, and if you can find a 3u, you'll have a direct replacement. They are a bit crudely made, and will need to wear in and then be re-adjusted. At that point the BB should remain stable for a very long time, with servicing.

Glad to help! The handbooks aren't hard to use, but it can take a while to stare at them and understand what they are saying.

Loosescrews seemed to be out of the cups, else I would have suggested them.

I think the cartridge is the simplest way to go, instead of paying shipping from 2 different places IF one can find the cups.

Possibly, the 127.5 cartridge has a bit of offset?? which would help.
Wish there was a chart showing actual offsets for cartridge BB's, since apparently, some aren't symmetrical.

The Sutherland's charts allow you to calculate it. I recall the 127.5 being symmetrical.

Edit: This is wrong, see the next post! It's good to do the math rather than just guess, I guess.

Ok, self-correction! I went back to Sutherland's and did the math. The EL width, 127.5 on a 68 mm shell, is not symmetrical, contradicting my previous post. To start, the SER (again, Shell to End Right) is 30.5 mm. Subtract that from 127.5, getting 97 mm, which accounts for the shell width and the left end width SEL, Shell to End Left. (A symmetrical BB has SER = SEL.) Subtract 68 mm for the shell from 97, which gives you 29 mm left over, which must be the SEL. So the drive-side stub is 30.5 mm from the BB shell, and the non-drive side is 29.0 mm from left edge of shell to the end of the spindle. If possible, cranksets chosen to use with this BB should be designed to center up with this assymmetry.

So, Bill, the 127.5 EL cartridge BB has a 2.5 mm offset, longer on the drive side. And the paragraph above shows how you can figure it out if you ever need to.

FWIW, I looked at the 3S, which seems to have been nut0type only. It has SER of 29.5, 1 mm shy of the 127.5 EL cartridge. As well, the length is 124.5, 3 mm shy of the EL cartridge. So the non-drive end will be 27.0 mm, 2 mm shy.

Biggest issue with the 3S is the nut v. bolt design: nut designs are said to be less reliable than bolted, and a different extractor might be needed, than the old standard Campy. Other than that, one should be mindful of the chainstay clearances on both sides of the bike, due to the narrower spindle length.