Winter Cycling - Best cold weather fabrics

Here are some hard data on fabrics insulation i've gathered from this link
http://coldweatherclothing.ciehub.info/ref/ADA336776.pdf

Here all fabrics have been tested when dry. So in wet environment things could be different. Doesn't say much regarding the ability to move the water away neither. Nor does it say much more about the durability


CLO per inch before laundering best to worst
Silk/wool 18.38
Wool/thermax 12.27
Pyroloft A 6.38
Polartec 300 5.35
Primaloft 4.67
Microloft 150R 4.39
Polartec powerstretch 4.3
Thinsulate CS100 4.29
Thinsulate CS300 4.20
Thermolite 100 3.93

CLO per inch after laundering best to worst
Silk/wool ?
Wool/thermax ?
Pyroloft A 4.12
Polartec 300 ?
Thinsulate CS300 3.21
Thinsulate CS100 3.14
Polartec powerstretch ?
Primaloft 2.07
Microloft 150R 1.98
Liteloft 96g 1.4
Polarguard HV 4.4oz 1.26
Liteloft 65g 1.16

CLO per oz before laundering best to worst
Pyroloft A 1.27
Liteloft 65g 1.11
Liteloft 96g 0.9
Primaloft 0.89
Microloft 150R 0.62
Polarguard HV 4.4oz 0.5
Thinsulate CS100 0.41
Thermolite 100 0.4
Thinsulate CS300 0.33
Silk/Wool 0.32
Polartec powerstretch 0.14
Polartec 300 0.13

CLO per oz after laundering best to worst
Pyroloft A 0.78
Liteloft 96g 0.43
Primaloft 0.39
Liteloft 65g 0.36
Polarguard HV 4.4oz 0.33
Thinsulate CS100 0.27
Microloft 150R 0.26
Thinsulate CS300 0.21
Silk/Wool ?
Polartec powerstretch ?
Polartec 300 ?

EDIT:
no data available where the ? are

Useful data but how do the numbers look after a few washes and some wear and compression.
There is one value for wool but wool varies a lot in insulating capability according to fine-ness of fibre and type. Alpaca is a hollow fibre and there is cashmere and quiviut

Data for wool are from table 5
Other values are from table 9, 11 and 12

not sure how much it relates to cold weather riding gear..... in below freezing conditions, what's most important is a good wind shell layer combined with extremity and face protection. what is underneath the shell is pretty inconsequential in my book, as just about anything works.

just like while cross country skiing, you don't need to wear much to stay warm while riding.

not sure how much it relates to cold weather riding gear..... in below freezing conditions, what's most important is a good wind shell layer combined with extremity and face protection. what is underneath the shell is pretty inconsequential in my book, as just about anything works.

just like while cross country skiing, you don't need to wear much to stay warm while riding.

It relates in some way. I give you my example. I was looking for warm gloves for winter. My interest ended up on leather gloves. From there i started having problem with the way to guess how warm a leather glove will be based on its fabrics. Water is not important here as i will wear nitrile gloves directly onto my skin.
So the remaining aspects are the quality of the fabric, the layers and the type of fabrics.
From there i know that gloves have limited space available for insulation which by chance is related to CLO per inch. Secondly, on websites gloves insulation is presented in gram which is related to CLO per oz. And finally, if i choose a glove with a removable liner it means that this liner will probably end up in a washing machine which is related to before or after laundering. It's not an exact science but it will probably help.

Another example is if you decide to go into an expedition/touring you then need to have the best insulation with the minimum weight (CLO per oz).

Another example is that you could end up with gloves which don't have a removable liner so the before and after laundering won't be as important as there is little chance you put your gloves into a washing machine. The opposite goes if you're looking for a jacket for instance.

here's what happens: you buy lofty gear.

if it's not down, no matter which insulation you get, after a few years it looses loft and becomes less effective. If it's pile, it loses it at the shoulders and wear areas. (it can take a decade or two to wear out a pile coat) if it's fiberfill batting, it flattens out.

You give the less effective gear to charity, and get some more.


The best cold weather fabric for solidly below freezing temps is uncoated pertex nylon. the MEC Super Microfit cycling jacket (http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Cycling/MensClothing/PRD~5017-604/mec-supermicroft-cycling-jacket-mens.jsp) is a timeless, near perfect piece of cold weather gear made in one of the best performing cold weather fabrics.

underneath, you can wear whatever you'd like. any baselayer and any midlayer and any insulating vest provide impressive levels of warmth for an afternoon ride underneath a MEC cycling coat.

have you tried shell gloves? just like core layering, with a good shell you can put any old insulation underneath and get pretty good performance down to quite low temperatures.

The best cold weather fabric for solidly below freezing temps is uncoated pertex nylon. the MEC Super Microfit cycling jacket (http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Cycling/MensClothing/PRD%7E5017-604/mec-supermicroft-cycling-jacket-mens.jsp) is a timeless, near perfect piece of cold weather gear made in one of the best performing cold weather fabrics.
.

I thought about buying this one for a long long time but i had already bought another jacket when i learn about it. The massimo 2 jacket from louis garneau it's kind of heavy duty compared to the mec supermicroft, the later one being more versatile and I have another one in the same category than the mec supermicroft, a sugoi firewall 180 jacket. As i already bought the louis garneau jacket i decided to carry on with this way which is different than going with the mec supermicroft. I prefer my way now that i had time to try it. I think your way is similar to the gen3 ecwcs way of the US army my way is more like a gen4 ecwcs.
Here is why.
The mec supermicroft has few drawbacks, it lacks pitzips and other ventilation systems at the right places (and is not water resistant which is not really a problem below freezing temps except for frozen rain).
With the louis garneau jacket for cold weather and the sugoi firewall 180 for transitional weather both have the same ability to adapt to the anatomy by limiting the wind from coming from the front and by allowing the release of excess heat on the front arm, under arm and the back. Both mimics the way the body works. Overall the comfort is then better than what it could be with the mec supermicroft because of that. It's quite of the futur of what garments will be. Anatomy adapted.

Regarding the gloves, my problem is that i have big hands so common brands (black diamond, mammut, outdoor research, marmot, louis garneau, sugoi, hestra, north face, arc'Teryx, grandoe etc) don't works with me when it comes to layering so i have to go with snowmobile gloves which anyway are better for cold on the bicycle for the same reason than the jacket, insulation adapts to the anatomy (more insulation on the back than on the palm)

I have couple fleece shirts I'm very fond of. combined with base layer and outer shell they are quite versatile

The mec supermicroft has few drawbacks, it lacks pitzips and other ventilation systems at the right places (and is not water resistant which is not really a problem below freezing temps except for frozen rain).

The mec supermicroft does have pit zips and dwr treatment.

The mec supermicroft does have pit zips and dwr treatment.

There is pitzips and there is pitzips. Look at the 2 jackets i was talking about and you will understand what i mean. But the best ventilation systems are the pitzips there is no garment on the market able to have the same results than pitzips. The mec supermicroft simply doesn't have enough of them.
Same goes with DWR treatment. Just put the mec under 1hr rain. Anyway, here is the title of the first comment on the mec website for the mec supermicroft :
Not water resistant at all

I put the microft jacket under 3 hours of rain and had somewhat wet shoulders. The point is that these aren't rain jackets. You can't expect to be dry wearing a water resistant wind breaker in the rain.

the pitzips on a mec microfit are about two feet long, plenty ample for ventilation.

and the jacket rocks in cold weather, best i've found.

the pitzips on a mec microfit are about two feet long, plenty ample for ventilation.

and the jacket rocks in cold weather, best i've found.

I'm not saying there isn't enough ventilation where there is pitzips the problem is where there isn't, the forearms and the middle back.


But if i had bought the supermicroft rather than the sugoi firewall 180 i would see no point going for the other one. It's just 2 different ways to solve the same problem. The sugoi firewall 180 is more a middle layer in a multi layers softshell approach and which can be used as an outerlayer and react like the supermicroft, when the later one is more a light outerlayer.

But if there is little differences with one layer. When looking at the whole system my way is better overall.
Let's compare what one of the best systems would be:

outerlayer : supermicroft jacket
midlayer : smartwool phd divide full zip top
baselayer : merino icebreaker 200

outerlayer: louis garneau massimo 2 jacket
midlayer: sugoi firewall 180 jacket



Above freezing temps:

supermicroft jacket + light baselayer vs firewall 180 jacket

wind resistance : front panel, arms, neck and shoulders: advantage firewall 180; forearms: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage sugoi
breathability: back and forearms: advantage firewall 180; shoulders and underarms: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage mec
waterproofness: front panel, arms and shoulders :advantage firewall 180; forearms and back: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage sugoi
ability to dry: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage mec
sweat: advantage firewall 180 (supermicroft dry, breath better but the breathable areas are better placed on the firewall 180); overall: sugoi
cold resistance: advantage firewall 180 (warmer where needed(front,arms, shoudlers) and colder where not needed); overall: advantage sugoi
visibility: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage mec
fit: your choice (slim fit vs relaxed fit)
smellproofness: advantage supermicroft; overall: advantage mec
practicality: advantage firewall 180 (one pocket each but 2 layers vs 1); overall: advantage sugoi
price: advantage firewall 180 (85$ sugoi, 105$ mec (75$ supermicroft + 30$ base layer); overall: advantage sugoi
so to sum up:
supermicroft + light baselayer: breathability, ability to dry, visibility, smellproofness
firewall 180: wind resistance, waterproofness, cold resistance, sweat, practicality, price

So from those results the firewall 180 jacket seems better equipped for colder temperatures than the supermicroft jacket + base layer combo
Taking into account that at hotter temps a simple t shirt is enough.

Then in colder temperatures (around freezing)

combo merino icebreaker 200 top + mec supermicroft jacket vs louis garneau massimo 2 jacket + light baselayer
The same goes here as the design of the louis garneau jacket is quite similar with the sugoi firewall 180

wind resistance : front panel, arms, neck, shoulders and forearms: advantage massimo 2; overall: advantage garneau
breathability: back and forearms: advantage massimo 2; underarms : equivalent; arms: advantage equivalent; overall: advantage garneau
waterproofness: advantage massimo 2; overall: advantage garneau
ability to dry: advantage massimo 2 (merino is slow to dry); overall: advantage garneau
sweat: advantage massimo 2 (merino is better when wet but massimo 2 is better in wind resistance, breathability and ability to dry ); overall: advantage garneau
cold resistance: advantage massimo 2 (massimo 2 jacket beat the combo in wind resistance, sweat, breathability etc.); overall: advantage garneau
visibility: advantage combo; overall: advantage combo
fit: your choice (slim fit vs relaxed fit)
smellproofness: advantage combo; overall: advantage combo
practicality: advantage massimo 2 (2 jacket vs 2 but more pockets and better designed pockets ); overall: advantage garneau
price: advantage combo (176$ garneau (146$ + 30$ base layer), 119$ combo(75$ mec, 44$ icebreaker); overall: advantage combo

so to sum up:
combo supermicroft jacket + icebreaker 200 top: visibility, smellproofness, price
massimo 2 jacket + light baselayer: wind resistance, breathability, waterproofness, ability to dry, sweat, cold resistance, practicality
So from those results there isn't much to say as it is pretty obvious


Now way below freezing temperatures

combo supermicroft:
outerlayer : supermicroft jacket
midlayer : smartwool phd divide full zip top
baselayer : merino icebreaker 200

combo massimo:
outerlayer: louis garneau massimo 2 jacket
midlayer: sugoi firewall 180 jacket


wind resistance : front panel, neck, forearms: equivalent; arms, shoulders: advantage combo massimo; overall: advantage combo massimo
breathability: back, forearms : advantage combo massimo; underarms: equivalent; overall: advantage combo massimo
waterproofness: advantage combo massimo; overall: advantage combo massimo
ability to dry: advantage combo massimo (merino is slow to dry); overall: advantage combo massimo
sweat: advantage combo massimo (merino is better when wet but the combo massimo is better in wind resistance, breathability and ability to dry ); overall: advantage combo massimo
cold resistance: advantage combo massimo (the combo massimo beat the combo supermicroft in wind resistance, sweat, breathability etc.); overall: advantage combo massimo
visibility: advantage combo supermicroft; overall: advantage combo supermicroft
fit: your choice (slim fit vs relaxed fit)
smellproofness: advantage combo supermicroft; overall: advantage combo supermicroft
practicality: advantage combo massimo (2 jackets vs 3, more pockets and better designed pockets ); overall: advantage combo massimo
price: advantage combo (235$ combo massimo (146$ garneau, 85$ sugoi); 318$ combo supermicroft (75$ mec, 199$ smartwool, 44$ icebreaker); overall: advantage combo massimo

so to sum up:
combo supermicroft: visibility, smellproofness
combo massimo: wind resistance, breathability, waterproofness, ability to dry, sweat, cold resistance, practicality, price
So from those results there isn't much to say as it is pretty obvious again

hehe. yeah, i had a coat like that. A remarkably similar, fancy stretch softshell of latest cut from Endura. Got it in 2011 gratis as a shwag sample from the shop, 250 bucks new or something.

Wettest thing i'd ever ridden in.
.......promptly got rid of it as it was a swampmachine.

How much have you ridden in the coat? What are you comparing it to in your own kit? Have you ever used a windshell in the winter for any winter sport?

I started winter riding in the 1970's, so have a lot of baseline data to refer back to.

Thinking a stretchy waterproof softshell is somehow the 'best' cold weather fabric for cycling is barking up the wrong tree.

More power to you figuring it out. you may someday discover what truly constitutes the best cold weather fabrics, but it won't be from a spreadsheet of R-values.

I have been wearing a goretex paclite jacket for 10 years, have an event jacket, a rain jacket, a bunch of softshell jacket and other cycling gears (mec included). Have been wearing the louis garneau jacket for more than a year last winter included under rain, frozen rain, cold weather, very cold weather at -36C, wind, cool weather and even hot weather.
Under rain conditions it is the closest waterproof jacket from the goretex paclite jacket that i have ever been wearing. Above 55F it's usually too hot to wear

how well do the primaloft layers fit under the Louis Garneau shell?


out in nearly 40 below in that LG stretchy thing? impressive. I can see why you're concerned about more warm layers!

:D

here's a tip: when it gets really cold, waterproof starts to work against the rider.

how well do the primaloft layers fit under the Louis Garneau shell?

Well i have a polar fleece from quechua that i was using with the goretex paclite. With the louis garneau shell it will go all the way to -40F. But it defeat the purpose of having a breathable part on the back. The polar fleece don't have one. And with only two big layers. Sweat is guaranted and there is no way to use the polar fleece alone under heavy rain.



out in nearly 40 below in that LG stretchy thing? impressive. I can see why you're concerned about more warm layers!
Well, i found out that the only way to not sweat much on a bicycle is to be cold. Without a windproof front panel it's quite impossible to get there. Because you get a pneumonia before being cold. I nearly got sick with the mec thermal vertex that i was wearing last month at 65F due to the lack of windproof front panel. Those gears are well made for climbing, mountaineering but not for cycling





:D

here's a tip: when it gets really cold, waterproof starts to work against the rider.

I agree 200%. For the 10 years that i have been wearing the goretex paclite jacket i must have sweat enough to fill a lake

Wool.

/thread

:D

My stuff is way simple. When it's warm I wear a cycling jersey or a cotton tshirt. When it gets cool I add a thin, very thin windbreak jacket. When it gets a bit chilly I put on a thin polypro long underwear and that's never worn with cotton over it. A regular cycling jersey would go over it. Add the thin windproof jacket as needed. Still cooler and I'll probably add thin polypro gloves under my cycling jacket. Cooler yet and I may add stretch leggings that I can remove if I warm up enough. From there I add another thin polypro layer. By the time I get to two polypro layers with a thin windproof jacket I'll be swapping the thin windproof jacket for my only real cycling upper-outer layer, a Bellweather cycling jacket with a windproof front and open weave back. Two long john tops and a jersey with the Bellweather jacket with Craft pants and gloves with a thin polypro balaclava and I'm good to +20F. At +10 I simply add another layer of Polypro. At zero to -10 I swap a layer of polypro for a thicker synthetic layer and swap my balaclava for a medium weight balaclava. At -20F I add another thin shell over my bellweather or remove the Bellweather and swap it for another synthetic layer of med weight and use a large windproof jacket. I like the Bellweather because it allows perspiration to go out the back side. I don't want "wet but warm". I want warm and dry. I do get sweaty but if I stop or reduce my effort my own body heat will dry me out. The perspiration won't remain in my clothing to any great degree and I can stay in the same clothes (needing more layers if my work effort drops) without concern. I much prefer that to warm, wet, wool. Just a preference. Wool also rocks and some conditions make it shine but in general I prefer pure synthetics and simply adding layers on layers to mix and match while letting my sweat escape as best as possible.
Agreed that overheating is the way to sweating. When I leave the house in the winter I know I need to be quite chilly as I start. If I'm not almost uncomfortably cold as I start, I'm dressed too warm. Alternatively, when it's very cold I'll start out comfortably and then stop within 15-20 min and remove a layer. Either way works.

Am I the only one using leather with breathing room as a primary wind-break with often little underneath? Specifically soft leather chaps with a loose fit around the legs. I'm a practical-ist commuter not a stretch fabric shaved and oiled legs and arms roady and this year after getting really sick and tired of having to change before and after work for the commute especially in the wet soppy weather with wet road grime being thrown onto my legs by four wheeled motor vehicle traffic I started wearing motorcycle chaps to cover my legs while riding my pedal bikes and it has worked out great keeping my legs warm, dry, and clean. I might possibly wear out the leather in the knee bend area over time due to the pedaling action but so far I'm very pleased with the results. So pleased in-fact that on the really cold and windy days I've started wearing a leather motorcycle jacket as well with just a T-shirt underneath and the collar not zipped up tight and the bottom belt on the jacket not cinched down tight so it can breath around the waist and up through the front of the collar and that is really working well although it hasn't gotten into the F-scale sub-zero yet. Just using the leather as a very effective wind break that is pretty much water-proof and road grime proof as well seems to be working very well for me. I always figured motorcycle leather would be too heavy and bulky on a pedal bike but so far it has been worth it for me although both my chaps and jacket have been broken in and are soft and pliable might be different if they were brand new and stiff.

i use leather gloves with liners underneath for most conditions. have to get a new set of deerskin choppers, lost my last good set somehow.

I'm a fan of the lighter fabrics for shell pieces. Epic encapsulated fibers work great. In the snowstorm just last week I rode in a mil-spec wind pant. full conditions, high winds, driven snow and sleet, legs totally dry at end of commute.

I'm become very impressed how well these encapsulated, non laminate fabrics perform in most conditions. I even have a mountaineering tent made out of uncoated Epic encapsulated nylon that works admirably well.

I just got a pair of lightly insulated Nike golf pants for twenty bucks that should be the bees knees for cold weather riding around town while still looking presentable.



-----------------------

For the 10 years that i have been wearing the goretex paclite jacket i must have sweat enough to fill a lake

right. (so close) 10 years?

Has anyone told you about the value of riding in non-waterproof layers like windbreakers in wintertime yet? :D

Yes, 10 years. Now that i look at this, this jacket was (still is) indestructible. I gave it to charity because i wanted to change not because it wasn't wearable anymore. This jacket beat my willingness hands down. My guess is 100 years from now someone will still be wearing it.
I understand what you meant by timeless mec supermicroft cycling jacket.

Windbreaker panels at the right places (front panel, arms, shoulders, neck) are perfect for cycling but not at the wrong places. The body works dynamically it needs areas to release excess heat and moisture. Usually it is the head but the back is a bigger surface.

I have a Columbia Omni tech jacket with a waterproof shell and interchangeable liners... the fleece liner was not nearly as good as the Omnishield liner I picked up but then, the jacket was designed to handle the weather of the Pacific Northwest and also works very well in our colder drier climate.

Neither of the insulating layers in this system is as good as my trusty military issue wool sweaters which are superb insulators and because they fit very close to my body are almost like a second skin and will wick moisture from my base layer. With this a simple t-shirt can be worn under the wool and I will stay warm and dry in a wide range of temperatures. When it gets into extreme cold that base layer becomes Merino.

We were speaking to this at our winter cycling class the other night in that there are many excellent man made fibers, but my partner (and an expert in textiles and materials) also pointed out that there is no man made product that can match wool for warmth, wearability, bacterial resistance, and function under fire as wool retains it's insulating properties even when it is nearly saturated.

The biggest downside of wool is that quality wool gear costs much more than synthetics.

Wool is probably one of the best, I love wearing wool... the only downside I can think of is that it's not windproof. When the temps drop below freezing and wind starts blowing , wool needs to be layered with something that is windproof. As much as I love wearing wool, I also love wearing my North Face synthetics.

Neither of the insulating layers in this system is as good as my trusty military issue wool sweaters which are superb insulators and because they fit very close to my body are almost like a second skin and will wick moisture from my base layer. With this a simple t-shirt can be worn under the wool and I will stay warm and dry in a wide range of temperatures. When it gets into extreme cold that base layer becomes Merino.



Yes but like i was saying before the design of the garment is as important if not more important than the choice of fabrics itself. You could choose the best insulation fabrics in the world but if the design tend to make the cyclist overheating (for instant due to a lack of pitzips) then overheating will mean sweat and sweat with cold wind will mean cold

Wool.This.

Also, Bek makes an important point: when you go way down beneath 0C staying warm isn't the goal. It's staying warm AND avoiding excessive sweating. That can be difficult. You also need extra clothing for rest stops, or in case of mechanical failure. When I'm XC skiing I carry at least one extra middle layer plus a down jacket that packs into its own pocket. Everything is fine when you're moving. It's when you start feeling tired/hungry/thirsty you really need to start worrying about clothing.

--J

Juha I see you're from finland. What kind of brands of gloves do you have over there?

This.

Also, Bek makes an important point: when you go way down beneath 0C staying warm isn't the goal. It's staying warm AND avoiding excessive sweating. That can be difficult. You also need extra clothing for rest stops, or in case of mechanical failure. When I'm XC skiing I carry at least one extra middle layer plus a down jacket that packs into its own pocket. Everything is fine when you're moving. It's when you start feeling tired/hungry/thirsty you really need to start worrying about clothing.

--J

When my winter commute often took me through the river valley trails I always ensured I had the right gear in case I had a mechanical and had to walk out or spend time making repairs... the gear you need to be on two feet in severe weather and the gear you need for riding are two different things.

Have ridden at -46C with not much more than I ride with at -30C but if had to be out on foot I would have put on my seldom used parka and an extra layer or three.

I have put back data for wool in the first post as i don't see where an error could come from but the CLO values for wool are strangely high compared to synthetics. I know that wool is good but 3 times better than the next competitor?

I have put back data for wool in the first post as i don't see where an error could come from but the CLO values for wool are strangely high compared to synthetics. I know that wool is good but 3 times better than the next competitor?

I know that my wool feels three times better than my best high tech mid layer... as said there are many different types of wool and some are incredible in how well they insulate.

Alpaca and Musk Ox wool is so incredibly warm that you will feel a temperature increase as soon as you put it on... the wool from a Musk OX is called quivet and is 8 times warmer than sheep's wool and will not felt or shrink as sheep's wool does. It is really a super insulator but when you consider where Musk Ox are from this is understandable.

Alpaca is luxuriously soft as well... I have a scarf made from Alpaca and it has to be really cold before I will wear it but it's downside that it is not as robust as sheep's wool.

I've just order some merino wool gloves liners from Ibex. Will see where they stand. The merino wool come from new zealand.
To avoid the durability problems with thin merino gloves i will sandwich them with glue between 2 layers of nitrile gloves. This way i won't need to wash them and it will reinforce the tips and the base of the fingers

I've just order some merino wool gloves liners from Ibex. Will see where they stand. The merino wool come from new zealand.
To avoid the durability problems with thin merino gloves i will sandwich them with glue between 2 layers of nitrile gloves. This way i won't need to wash them and it will reinforce the tips and the base of the fingers

The biggest plus to the Merino is it's excellent wicking properties and putting a barrier between you and the wool will negate one of it's best features.

I use wool flip mitts with added thinsulate and then put a wool / thinsulate glove inside... they are windproof and have got me through temperatures as low as -46.

All of mans technology and they still can't make anything that can soundly trounce good old cotton, wool, and leather. In-fact they are so disturbed by the fact and so insecure in it that they have to remove the values from their list and put question marks in instead to make them feel better about their fancy synthetics.

Got nothing against synthetics except for the fact some people just can't stand the fact that the good old stuff used for thousands of years can still give all their fancy stuff a run for its money and they like to downplay the old stuff to the point of intellectual dishonesty.

Forgot to mention silk, hemp, down, and fur-on-hide as four of the other old natural standbys that can still give the new fangled synthetics a run for their money as well.

Cotten, Wool, Leather, Silk, Hemp, Down, and Fur-on-Hide ~ You can cover just about every nitch of clothing and household need with just those in all their variations for every climate and clothing need under the sun. To my knowledge they have not yet been able to come up with a synthetic that can even match much less exceed down and wolverine fur for their specific uses in cold weather gear.

All of mans technology and they still can't make anything that can soundly trounce good old cotton, wool, and leather. In-fact they are so disturbed by the fact and so insecure in it that they have to remove the values from their list and put question marks in instead to make them feel better about their fancy synthetics.

Got nothing against synthetics except for the fact some people just can't stand the fact that the good old stuff used for thousands of years can still give all their fancy stuff a run for its money and they like to downplay the old stuff to the point of intellectual dishonesty.

A comment from someone who hasn't read anything from the paper he is commenting.
If you had read it you would know that there is no data available where the question mark are.

Regarding the data for wool, what i have learned at school is that you don't present something if you have doubts about the legitimity of the source. The same way you don't talk about something you don't know. The data for wool comes from another table which is a problem because the methodology to get those data could be different than the methodology used to get the data for the other fabrics. My personal opinion has nothing to do with the results but i could have made some mistakes when taking the data from the link. Personnaly, i don't care which one come in first but if i can put my hands on it that's what interest me

The biggest plus to the Merino is it's excellent wicking properties and putting a barrier between you and the wool will negate one of it's best features.

I know that but below 20F, the vapor barrier system is more efficient than the classic breathable system. Especially at the extremities. In extreme cold weather the breathable system even become a liability because ice tend to accumulate on the outer layer due to sweat. I experimented that myself last winter. In my 5 hr trip at -36C/-33F ice did gather on my outer jacket. It was the sweat reaching the outerlayer which froze

You are correct that I did not read the full paper you linked too and only skimmed it and mainly read the posts on the thread itself especially your initial posts that started the thread.

I'm sorry but I didn't catch the edits to your first few posts. As I recall when I read them (fully admittedly way back when I posted my first post on this thread considerably before I posted my second and third post on this thread) the numbers for wool had been replaced with a question mark in the original thread start post and a following post by you explained that the question marks had been put in because you couldn't believe the numbers for wool could compare that way with the other fabrics. It is possible that my memory is way off and that wasn't the case and I have been wrong before sometimes way wrong but that is what I remember originally being there back on Sunday morning in my time zone when I posted my original post on this thread. I didn't comment on it at that time although it did sort of tweak me the wrong direction but I bit my tongue and just posted about leather as a wind break. But the thread has continued from there and there has been much more discussion on wool since then and you seemed to keep rejecting wool out of hand so I opened my big fat mouth and made the two above posts that had been in the back of my mind since my first post but I had held my fire on. I am into sewing and I do make some of my own gear or at the very least modify store bought gear to suit my needs and what I know about fabrics I didn't learn from any chart but rather from experience (same goes for venting vs. wind shielding of active wear clothing).

I have learned some things in this thread that have got me to thinking about some cycling specific modifications and alterations I could make. Starting with taking a thin soft leather only "no-lining of any sort" shirt like you can sometimes pick up in a western wear shop that is one size too big for me to wear as a shirt and then taking some wool and making a sewed in liner for it like a jacket and cut vent holes in the armpits and in the back through the leather wind shielding to directly expose the inner wool liner inside to allow an exit point for the moisture wicked away by the wool without compromising the leathers wind-break advantages on the front side which could fit better and tighter around my body and not be as bulky and eliminate moisture better and be over-all better for cycling then using the leather motorcycle jacket I have been using this year. Something similar could be done with the chaps as well although they are already vented to a certain degree due to the fact that they are chaps not full on leather pants.

I'm sorry but I didn't catch the edits to your first few posts. As I recall when I read them (fully admittedly way back when I posted my first post on this thread considerably before I posted my second and third post on this thread) the numbers for wool had been replaced with a question mark in the original thread start post and a following post by you explained that the question marks had been put in because you couldn't believe the numbers for wool could compare that way with the other fabrics. It is possible that my memory is way off and that wasn't the case and I have been wrong before sometimes way wrong but that is what I remember originally being there back on Sunday morning in my time zone when I posted my original post on this thread. I didn't comment on it at that time although it did sort of tweak me the wrong direction but I bit my tongue and just posted about leather as a wind break. But the thread has continued from there and there has been much more discussion on wool since then and you seemed to keep rejecting wool out of hand so I opened my big fat mouth and made the two above posts that had been in the back of my mind since my first post but I had held my fire on. I am into sewing and I do make some of my own gear or at the very least modify store bought gear to suit my needs and what I know about fabrics I didn't learn from any chart but rather from experience (same goes for venting vs. wind shielding of active wear clothing).

I think it's a misunderstanding like i said the question marks are there because there is no data available. I think you made an idea of a situation like 100 millions of people could have made 100 millions different ideas.
And i think you don't realize that there is some calculations behind the data on this thread. It's not like if i had just taken the data from the link and put it there. I had to make some calculations. And behind any calculations there is some risks of mistakes. Even copying the data from the link to the excel spreadsheet that i have made could generate mistakes. That's why i'm being careful with the results. Nothing to do with the fact that i like wool or not. I'm not against wool i'm against mistakes.
What i said in a previous post and it happened to be related to wool because Sixty fiver gave his own opinion which happened to be related to wool , is that CLO results are not the only thing to consider here, the design is as important as the fabric
Some other considerations are written in the first post and in the report as well.
Science is full of terms and uncertainty that's sad but that's what it is

All of mans technology and they still can't make anything that can soundly trounce good old cotton, wool, and leather. In-fact they are so disturbed by the fact and so insecure in it that they have to remove the values from their list and put question marks in instead to make them feel better about their fancy synthetics.

Got nothing against synthetics except for the fact some people just can't stand the fact that the good old stuff used for thousands of years can still give all their fancy stuff a run for its money and they like to downplay the old stuff to the point of intellectual dishonesty.

I don't know turbo, i understand the POV, but personally think pertex is preferable to egyptian gaberdine ala Roald Admunsen.

The Norwegian military still uses cotton in their polar outer layers, but it is part of a technical fabric blend.

I do agree wool provides a serious comfort edge in winter conditions.

Anecdotally, I volunteered for quite a few years on Mount Rainier in the winter as a backcountry patroller. When we'd be patrolling and stop, the people in synth layers and waterproofs would quickly move into a state of conductive heat loss. Those of us skiing in wool and simpler windproof layers could continue to function without undergoing the same heat loss effects.


Of course, i always had a puffy and a storm coat that sometimes got used on Rainier. but my storm shell didn't get worn as an everyday layer like many people in winter. not wearing a waterproof, and wearing wool, made all the difference.

Juha I see you're from finland. What kind of brands of gloves do you have over there?I have a pair of Sinisalo lobster gloves (VERY warm), Gore gloves (warm) and a few pairs of Halti XC skiing gloves. I never shop by brands, just grab what's available and see if it fits the bill (and hand). I ordered the Gores from a German web shop because I needed something obnoxiously bright and reflective for night riding.

XC skiing clothing is in many ways good for cycling too - long cut back, long sleeves and legs, gloves reinfoced in the right spots for shifters. The only problem is, there's not much reflectors, or they're not in the best places.

--J

Someone mentioned cotton - it is one of the worst fabrics one can wear in winter, close to skin anyway and unless heavily mixed with other fabrics. It drains all the moisture, takes ages to dry and is a great heat sink when wet.

I'm also not convinced wearing what in effect is a plastic bag in winter (reducing breathability to avoid frost). Sure, there will be some frost on your jacket/shoulders, but so what? You can shake it off. Excessive amounts tell you you're getting too warm and need to cut down the physical effort and/or remove some clothing, right now. If you cannot or will not do either, you'll soon need a warm shelter to dry off and cool down.

It depends on the kind of exercise you're after too - if you enjoy going 100% from start to finish, and can rely on not stopping somewhere in the middle for any reason, you can wear pretty much anything you like. I see XC skiers like that in the Finnish Lappland every winter - they're equipped with just enough clothing to keep them warm when they're moving, carrying a couple of energy gels and a hip flask for 30-40km distance. They are fast but will need help if they have to stop for any reason between shelters.

--J

I'm also not convinced wearing what in effect is a plastic bag in winter (reducing breathability to avoid frost). Sure, there will be some frost on your jacket/shoulders, but so what? You can shake it off. Excessive amounts tell you you're getting too warm and need to cut down the physical effort and/or remove some clothing, right now. If you cannot or will not do either, you'll soon need a warm shelter to dry off and cool down.


The frost is not really a problem if you ride a few hours but during a several days trip in polar expedition for instance in very cold temperatures sometimes you can't just remove your gear for several days because of the cold you can wake up with a block of ice on you inside your garments. This is dangerous because it can stops you from moving when you need it the most. In critical situations like at the poles or at 6000m above the sea level anything can become deadly

here is comment from someone going to the north pole

Of course, what really happened when we reached the pole was a moment of celebration followed by a realisation that we were all alone. I sat on my sled, and since I had overexerted myself to get to the pole my sweat froze inside my clothing and I froze for three hours waiting for a pick-up. It was, however, an incredible feeling to think that there was no longer the uncertainty of not making it.
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/04/23/young-people-have-got-to-stand-up-and-take-notice-of-climate-change/

Anyway for most of people who don't do polar expeditions there is nothing to worry about and i would even advise against doing that at the jacket level only hands and feet as it limit the ability for the body to release excess it. You end up overheating and cutting down the physical effort to compensate. It's not efficient at all. And we agree on that.
At the feet and hands level where there is the most chance to froze it does make a difference and because the body can release excess heat at the other part of the body
The bunny boots used by US military and commonly used in polar expeditions works with the vapor barrier principle

"eirg007" lots o' theory here. I use what works here in New England. Polypro base layer, thick or thin, then wool sweater, thickness temp dependent. Top layer, windproof fleece vest or a new balance running jacket, windproof front, knit fabric elsewhere. My favorite base layer is capeline by patagonia, comes in three thicknesses, works great. YRMV. Wool is tops in my list. Wear what works for you. Someone in the cool and rainy northwest will have different needs than me.

If I ever get into conditions where my sweat freezes inside my clothing, I'll be sure to report it here. Until then, I'd rather have it evaporate through the clothing.

Cotton has it's place but is an extremely poor insulator and has m no wicking properties... in very hot and dry climates it can serve quite well but not in winter weather.

When cotton fibres get wet they lay flat and lose what little insulating properties they had so it is unsuitable as a base layer although there are exceptions... I can wear a close fitting cotton undershirt under a close fitting wool sweater and if the two materials are in contact the wool pulls every drop of moisture from the cotton.

Jeans are made from better cotton (work clothes) and better work pants like Carharrt are okay for cooler temps as they are fairly windproof by themselves... the type of cotton makes a difference as closer woven cotton like canvas duck are rather waterproof but do this when they are saturated and the fibres expand and tighten.

I have almost quite buying and wearing jeans and live in cotton duck pants... they are much tougher noticeably more windproof... and my wife says they are as sexy as hell.

:)

You are correct on the limitations of cotton. Not for warmth in the winter, the tough canvis and "duck" type cottons do have their uses in wind-break and strength applications. For warm weather comfort it is very nice. Good for undergarments except in the extreme cold (sub-zero on the F-scale) where using a non-itchy wool blend especially a silk/wool blend is far superior both for warmth and wicking. My use of cotton in stuff I actually sew myself is pretty much limited to outer barrier layers using tough canvis and "duck" type cottons. Will sometimes use lighter weight canvis as an inner layer up against the skin for non-sub-zero (F-scale) gear to save money so I don't have to use the much more expensive non-itch wool fabrics or silk and can use the cheaper itchy wool fabrics since lighter weight canvis is extremely wear resistant, feels comfortable against the skin, and doesn't stick and cling to you like some synthetics do. An example being a summer time back-packing sleeping bag I made for myself that will actually take some abuse and not get torn up like all the commercially made sleeping bags do. For the outer layer I used a tough cotton duck fabric. Then two layers of army surplus cheap high wool content blankets and then an inner liner of light weight canvis. A good quality zipper and some 2" wide industrial strength velcro stripping on the flap over the zipper and then some long lengths of seatbelt bought from the auto salvage yard sewed onto the outer edges so that It can be strung between two trees as a hamock or on a steep mountain side I can stake off the top and sleep on the hillside feet down well secured and it works great for summer back-packing in the high country. Would I trust it for winter time camping ~ No, need some down filling and an inner liner that was wool/silk blend up against the skin at the very least and probably more or better grade of wool with thin leather exterior weather-proofed with a generous quantity of mink oil for the deep cold.

Sporthill 3SP

"eirg007" lots o' theory here. I use what works here in New England. Polypro base layer, thick or thin, then wool sweater, thickness temp dependent. Top layer, windproof fleece vest or a new balance running jacket, windproof front, knit fabric elsewhere. My favorite base layer is capeline by patagonia, comes in three thicknesses, works great. YRMV. Wool is tops in my list. Wear what works for you. Someone in the cool and rainy northwest will have different needs than me.

According to the report (table 5), there is at least 3 fabrics better at moving moisture away (IM/CLO)

Filament Silk 0.28
Spun Silk 0.28
Capilene Igt wt. 0.28


What i think and have already experimented that myself with 2 different base layers and 2 different jackets the last winter
merino icebreaker 200 top and an ultra warm top (50% angora, 30% wool, 20% polyamid)
hardshell windproof jacket and a breathable softshell jacket

is that in cold weather with cold wind windproof jackets work better (comfortwise) with garments like wool which stay wet and that breathable softshell jackets work better with garments like polyester tops which dry fast


If I ever get into conditions where my sweat freezes inside my clothing, I'll be sure to report it here. Until then, I'd rather have it evaporate through the clothing.


It happened to me a few times and it wasn't always at extra cold temperatures.
It depends on the wind and the length of the trip also. My jacket was shinning like a christmas tree

I'd love to wear wool, but I can't. Too itchy - drives me nuts. Even superfine merino wool is not an option. Guess it's recycled pop bottles for me!

I'd love to wear wool, but I can't. Too itchy - drives me nuts. Even superfine merino wool is not an option. Guess it's recycled pop bottles for me!

Wool works better not directly onto the skin but above a moisture management layer maybe this could limit the itchyness