Touring - Isn't this highway robbery?

Just a few years ago, I remember purchasing other brands of "gas treatment" for 2 or 3 bottles for $1 from automotive supplies stores which advertised in Sunday papers. I am making a soda can alcohol stove and looked up the price of the Heet used as fuel and it is an eye popping $11 for 12 Oz at Sears (http://www.sears.com/heet-28201-gas-line-antifreeze-and-water/p-SPM7271411902?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2).

There are other sources that indicate that Heet is $3 for a 12 Oz bottle and I checked at the Home Depot and it was $8 for a quart.

I was a working in chemical factories in my early career and know how dirt cheap methanol is. There must be some law against such blatant extortion by retailers. This behavior has started after 9/11 in the US and grown like a plague. E.g., Ice cream was 64 Oz for all of last century and now the new half gallon is 48 Oz. Same for orange juice. The new gallon of bleach is now 96 Oz. not the 128 it was for ever in past. If you write to the retailers you get a sugar dripping reply about market research and constantly adjusting to the products to the needs of people, etc.

I wish there was a simple design for a DIY stove that can burn gasoline.

ak08820, It's the ice cream packaging that dies it, right? :)

Brad

Why buy HEET when you can get a qt. or gallon of alcohol at HomeDepot or the hardware store?

If you are on the road and can not find a hardware store, almost any auto parts store (AutoZone, O'Reilly's, etc.) and a lot of conv. stores sell a bottle of the yellow heet for $2-$3. Gallons of denatured are sure cheaper proportionately but we don't always have the luxury of carrying an entire gallon of fuel when we only need a pint or so.

Why buy HEET when you can get a qt. or gallon of alcohol at HomeDepot or the hardware store?
Because I only ever buy it when on tour and 12 ounces is about the right amount to carry to last a few days to a few weeks depending on how much you cook. Also it is already in what I have found to be a suitable bottle.

I would buy it from Home Depot if I were buying it at home, but that does me no good if I fly to my touring location.

To the OP, yeah $11.12 is crazy expensive, I have probably never paid more than $4 and usually much less. Then again if I needed it and it was the only store available for the next couple days I wouldn't bat an eye at that price.

If you think that mark up is bad, look at something as simple as the cost of bottled water vs tap water.....

If you think that mark up is bad, look at something as simple as the cost of bottled water vs tap water.....

That's funny, before all the various energy drinks and bottled water I'd fill my water bottles from a hose or bathroom faucet. Spending $2 for a qt. of water is normal now.

That's funny, before all the various energy drinks and bottled water I'd fill my water bottles from a hose or bathroom faucet. Spending $2 for a qt. of water is normal now.

And to add insult to injury, the fine print on many of those bottles of water indicates it is filtered from a "municipal source," aka tap water.

To the OP - that price is outrageous for HEET. But it's hard to call it extortion when the choice on whether to pay that price or not is entirely yours. Nobody's got a gun to your head. Sears will make a fortune on it if there are enough people out there who don't bother looking or caring what the price is. Otherwise, they'll have lots of bottles with dust on them. It's the free market.

Just give up cooking.. eat out, at breakfast and lunch ,
bears (etc.) wont tear up your tent then , either..
since food smells wont be there.



Defining:
Highway robbery is when men come to the road, stop you,
and take everything of value you have.

you are just complaining about prices, where you went to a
chosen shopping outlet .

Sears has been broken as a retailer for a long time.

It's 16.44 at WalMart.......for a dozen (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HEET-Gas-Line-Antifreeze-and-Water-Remover-12ct/16879746).

Just remind me which coloured bottle of HEET I need to get for our Trangia. I need to be on the lookout for some as we move south in the US.

Just remind me which coloured bottle of HEET I need to get for our Trangia. I need to be on the lookout for some as we move south in the US.

Heet Yellow ---> 1.67 at WalMart

http://www.ziligy.com/photos/posts/Heet-Walmart.jpg

And to add insult to injury, the fine print on many of those bottles of water indicates it is filtered from a "municipal source," aka tap water.

To the OP - that price is outrageous for HEET. But it's hard to call it extortion when the choice on whether to pay that price or not is entirely yours. Nobody's got a gun to your head. Sears will make a fortune on it if there are enough people out there who don't bother looking or caring what the price is. Otherwise, they'll have lots of bottles with dust on them. It's the free market.

It is pretty funny/sad how much people will hate on drinking tap water trying all sorts of BS excuses like tap water is bad for you etc. It really makes one want to do a literal facepalm.

May be OK on the Air Force Academy campus,
Though they serve a particular Kool-aide there..

Central America does not have the same level of water treatment..
stick to the Beer.

Cervesa ..

Simpler solution, use rubbing alcohol. It all comes down to how far above the stove you sit the pan as to how blue you can keep the flame. You can get a 32 Oz bottle of rubbing alcohol almost anywhere for $1 and it will last you at lot longer than a 12 Oz bottle of Heet. Watch the videos on youtube. I've been doing some experimentation to build my own rubbing alcohol stove to use as my main stove for home yet alone on the road. Like I said from what I've seen it all comes down to how far above the stove you sit the pan....VERY KEY AND IMPORTANT.

Simpler solution, use rubbing alcohol.

Rubbing alcohols is usually 70% alcohol and 30% water. It doesn't burn very well in my jetted type stove. It might work better with bigger jets. It reportedly burns OK in open flame non jetted stoves. It is cheap and available and I'd would use it in a pinch, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Another good option is denatured alcohol from any paint store or department. You get it in a tin about a quart in volume, for about five bucks. It's not *pure* ethanol, as it legally must be denatured; sometimes it's as much as 50% diluted with methanol (and sometimes just a little methanol; or a little isopropyl alcohol, kerosene, gasolene, some other petroleum derivative -- but most often methanol), but just look up the MSDS to see if you're concerned.

I can't speak to the cost of fuel for a stove but I am well versed in the food industry. I retired after spending 32 years there and can say without hesitation the package size has nothing to do with consumer preference and everything to do with margins, profit and wall street expectations.

Heet Yellow ---> 1.67 at WalMart

http://www.ziligy.com/photos/posts/Heet-Walmart.jpg

That is much better!
I will have to go there.

Simpler solution, use rubbing alcohol. It all comes down to how far above the stove you sit the pan as to how blue you can keep the flame. You can get a 32 Oz bottle of rubbing alcohol almost anywhere for $1 and it will last you at lot longer than a 12 Oz bottle of Heet. Watch the videos on youtube. I've been doing some experimentation to build my own rubbing alcohol stove to use as my main stove for home yet alone on the road. Like I said from what I've seen it all comes down to how far above the stove you sit the pan....VERY KEY AND IMPORTANT.
Rubbing alcohol is 30% water as indicated and also it burns with a very sooty flame and turns your pots messy on the outside.

Rubbing alcohol is 30% water as indicated and also it burns with a very sooty flame and turns your pots messy on the outside.

In my stove at least it was kind of sooty and didn't burn very hot. It might be possible to build a stove that burns it cleanly, but I think the BTU per weight ratio is going to be kind of poor even then. I figure it is probably best reserved as a fallback option when there is nothing else available.

Just a few years ago, I remember purchasing other brands of "gas treatment" for 2 or 3 bottles for $1 from automotive supplies stores which advertised in Sunday papers. I am making a soda can alcohol stove and looked up the price of the Heet used as fuel and it is an eye popping $11 for 12 Oz at Sears (http://www.sears.com/heet-28201-gas-line-antifreeze-and-water/p-SPM7271411902?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2). There are other sources that indicate that Heet is $3 for a 12 Oz bottle and I checked at the Home Depot and it was $8 for a quart.

I was a working in chemical factories in my early career and know how dirt cheap methanol is. There must be some law against such blatant extortion by retailers. This behavior has started after 9/11 in the US and grown like a plague. E.g., Ice cream was 64 Oz for all of last century and now the new half gallon is 48 Oz. Same for orange juice. The new gallon of bleach is now 96 Oz. not the 128 it was for ever in past. If you write to the retailers you get a sugar dripping reply about market research and constantly adjusting to the products to the needs of people, etc. I wish there was a simple design for a DIY stove that can burn gasoline.

9/11 led to a fair number of odd things, but seems a stretch to blame these things on it. When the mainstream box of your fav butter pecan shrinks from a full 64oz half gallon down to 48oz, it was caused by the brands attempting to keep the "out the door price" close to what folks are used to paying even though the cost of materials, production, packaging, and transportation have gone up quite a bit. Supply and demand as distorted by reality and those marketing wonks!

Most grocery stores stock 70/30 rubbing alcohol and 91/9. The 91% isopropyl works quite well in a jet stove. Still a little sooty, but it's the same price as 70% in most places.

if you're willing to fork the price, everclear works pretty well too O:-) Buy it in bulk. I'm not sure what the price compared to isopropyl would be, but it's 95%.

Unfortunately can't be bought in a lot of states.

This behavior has started after 9/11 in the US and grown like a plague. E.g., Ice cream was 64 Oz for all of last century and now the new half gallon is 48 Oz.

I think that began well before 9/11. In my mind, the trend started with the 13 oz "pound" of coffee and those began to appear in the late 80s.

This behavior has started after 9/11 in the US and grown like a plague. E.g., Ice cream was 64 Oz for all of last century and now the new half gallon is 48 Oz.

I think that began well before 9/11. In my mind, the trend started with the 13 oz "pound" of coffee and those began to appear in the late 80s.

Been going on a long time, even back in the 70's. BTW a "pound" of coffee is now about 11 oz, must be that "new math" :innocent:

Aaron :)

It's only "extortion" in the sense that it is an exorbinant charge. Nothing illegal about it in this instance. And it's not highway robbery since there are plenty of other, cheaper sources available. As noted, no one is forcing you to buy it from Sears.

This stove for 70% iso is highly rated by his competitors. These things are so light, that one can carry more than one stove, say a jetted for when you can get it, and an iso for other times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaHQuLCQkr4

I've been doing a bit of this with ultralight gear. It is so light, sometimes I carry more stuff, because I can. I'll carry a tarp and a hammock, because I like sleeping on flat ground, but a hammock makes it possible to use trees in stealth locations that are sometimes more available. And some of the parts can be shared. If I carry a Hennessey, and a tent it is too heavy. I can use the hammock spreader bars as one end of the poles for the ground tarp. I can always find one tree.

... Sears (http://www.sears.com/heet-28201-gas-line-antifreeze-and-water/p-SPM7271411902?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2)...




There's your problem.

But if this is true, then how can we have a conspiracy theory? Where's the fun then?


9/11 led to a fair number of odd things, but seems a stretch to blame these things on it. When the mainstream box of your fav butter pecan shrinks from a full 64oz half gallon down to 48oz, it was caused by the brands attempting to keep the "out the door price" close to what folks are used to paying even though the cost of materials, production, packaging, and transportation have gone up quite a bit. Supply and demand as distorted by reality and those marketing wonks!

This behavior has started after 9/11 in the US and grown like a plague. E.g., Ice cream was 64 Oz for all of last century and now the new half gallon is 48 Oz.

I think that began well before 9/11. In my mind, the trend started with the 13 oz "pound" of coffee and those began to appear in the late 80s.

It started when the US adopted the liquid gallon at 3.8 litres, while the rest of the world used the imperial gallon at 4.5 litres.

That also means the quart and pint measures are out of whack because they are based on the gallon measure.

It started when the US adopted the liquid gallon at 3.8 litres, while the rest of the world used the imperial gallon at 4.5 litres.

That also means the quart and pint measures are out of whack because they are based on the gallon measure.

That still doesn't explain the 11.3 oz pound of coffee... BTW I just checked and of the 3 different brands of coffee cans I have, they range from 10.9 ounces to 11.3 ounces according to the label. :rolleyes:

Aaron :)

That still doesn't explain the 11.3 oz pound of coffee... BTW I just checked and of the 3 different brands of coffee cans I have, they range from 10.9 ounces to 11.3 ounces according to the label. :rolleyes:

Aaron :)

It weighs a pound, once you add the water required for a sturdy cup of coffee.

This is one of the reasons I burn gasoline...... Highway robbery to use my stove? No thanks....

It weighs a pound, once you add the water required for a sturdy cup of coffee.

Rehydrated weight...who would have thunk...

Aaron :)

This is one of the reasons I burn gasoline...... Highway robbery to use my stove? No thanks....
Alcohol for the stove has been a pretty minor expense for me. So it just doesn't seem like fuel expense is likely to be a big factor against it. Given that my pop can stove was essentially free and I don't need to buy a special fuel bottle, I would have to save a lot of money on fuel to buy a gasoline stove and a dedicated fuel bottle. Granted that I eat quite a few restaurant meals and a good bit of cold food, but I am sure I spent less than $5 on fuel for my Southern Tier trip.

There are pros to gasoline like extremely good availability, good cold weather performance, and a good BTU per weight ratio. There are also negatives like odor, higher volatility, heavier weight of the stove itself, need for a special bottle etc.

Gasoline stoves are expensive enough that it would probably take many months of consecutive touring for fuel savings to add up to the cost of a stove and fuel bottle. Figure that a gasoline stove will probably be $80-100 and a fuel bottle $10-25. So roughly $100 which would buy a few years worth of alcohol for a pop can stove.

Bottom line... lots of reasons to choose either alcohol or gasoline stoves, but fuel cost is pretty low on the list of reasons.

I use Denatured Alcohol when available. It is often more expensive than methanol, but it burns considerably hotter (20%) and longer (10%) that is if you get brands that are 90+% ethanol. Klean-Strip Green and Sunnyside are the two brands I look for in quarts tins at hardware stores when on tour. I do go to methanol (Yellow HEAT) when that is what is available. I seldom pay more than $2 - $2.25 per 12 oz. bottle in convenience stores or gas station minimarts. That seems pretty reasonable to me. My local Ace Hardware has pure Canadian methanol in a plastic qt. containers for $2.00 in the paint section compare that to Crown DA, which is nearly 75% meth and >25% ethanol at nearly $8.00 per qt. at REI.

I can't speak to the cost of fuel for a stove but I am well versed in the food industry. I retired after spending 32 years there and can say without hesitation the package size has nothing to do with consumer preference and everything to do with margins, profit and wall street expectations.

I would agree to some point however I strongly disagree with the consumer preference. This has been eye opening to me now in manufacturing.

I should ask though, are you taking on general or in this instance?

Klean-Strip Green and Sunnyside are the two brands I look for in quarts tins at hardware stores when on tour.
I balk at carrying a quart of fuel and would only buy it in that quantity when on tour if it was the only option, which it typically never is. I try to keep things very light and carrying an amount of fuel that I might not use up on a coast to coast tour just doesn't work for me. I guess if you cook a lot more than I do and are less weight conscious it might not be so bad.

I balk at carrying a quart of fuel and would only buy it in that quantity when on tour if it was the only option, which it typically never is.


From my perspective and calculations, I buy a quart or a liter of alcohol but I only carry a ½ quart or .5 liters on an average day. The Sunnyside DA is often available in ½ quart tins at True Value Hardware stores but I still tend to buy it in quarts for two reasons. 1) I do cook a lot and consider it an important and enjoyable part of my overall touring experience. I love to pick road side fruit for example and simmer it into “apple sauce” while I eat my main course. That’s 20+ minutes of burn time. I typically drink three cups of hot tea in the morning and also at the day’s end. I heat water to wash dishes after meals. I heat water to shave. I heat water to shower if I’m not in a campground with facilities. So I tend not to conserve fuel if it is readily available. I have pushed a quart of DA out to 8/9 days when forced to but more normally after four days I am looking for a refill. 2) More and more I find myself touring on back roads, dirt roads and no roads on US forest service and Canadian crown lands. I often don’t know what my route will be or what distance I can cover with unknown road surfaces and conditions. If I find an exquisite spot to stop, I often want to spend an extra day there as I did many times on my most recent tour around the Olympic Peninsula and the Oregon Coast Range. I don’t want those possibilities thwarted for the lack of a few mls of alcohol.

With all of the above said, I do buy Yellow HEAT all the time. I have on many occasions bought small town stores out of all the Yellow HEAT on their shelves. It burns very cleanly. There are no problems whatever mixing it with any amount of DA left in my fuel bottle. (As a side note I have found I can mix 70% isopropyl alcohol one part to two parts ethanol and/or Methanol and still get a good, clean, hot flame.) I take what I can get on the road, but it takes nearly four 12oz bottles of Yellow HEAT to equal the output of one quart of ethanol. At least those are the results I have gotten testing a couple of different alcohol burners in my kitchen using a thermometer and a stop watch.

Edit: Trying to get back to the OP's original thought. Four bottles of Yellow HEAT are typically more expensive than one qt tin of high quality denatured ethanol, especially when factoring in the heat output.

Rubbing alcohol is 30% water as indicated and also it burns with a very sooty flame and turns your pots messy on the outside.

Many stores also carry 90% or better Isopropyl. Probably still blackens things though.

From my perspective and calculations, I buy a quart or a liter of alcohol but I only carry a ½ quart or .5 liters on an average day. The Sunnyside DA is often available in ½ quart tins at True Value Hardware stores but I still tend to buy it in quarts for two reasons. 1) I do cook a lot and consider it an important and enjoyable part of my overall touring experience. I love to pick road side fruit for example and simmer it into “apple sauce” while I eat my main course. That’s 20+ minutes of burn time. I typically drink three cups of hot tea in the morning and also at the day’s end. I heat water to wash dishes after meals. I heat water to shave. I heat water to shower if I’m not in a campground with facilities. So I tend not to conserve fuel if it is readily available. I have pushed a quart of DA out to 8/9 days when forced to but more normally after four days I am looking for a refill. 2) More and more I find myself touring on back roads, dirt roads and no roads on US forest service and Canadian crown lands. I often don’t know what my route will be or what distance I can cover with unknown road surfaces and conditions. If I find an exquisite spot to stop, I often want to spend an extra day there as I did many times on my most recent tour around the Olympic Peninsula and the Oregon Coast Range. I don’t want those possibilities thwarted for the lack of a few mls of alcohol.

With all of the above said, I do buy Yellow HEAT all the time. I have on many occasions bought small town stores out of all the Yellow HEAT on their shelves. It burns very cleanly. There are no problems whatever mixing it with any amount of DA left in my fuel bottle. (As a side note I have found I can mix 70% isopropyl alcohol one part to two parts ethanol and/or Methanol and still get a good, clean, hot flame.) I take what I can get on the road, but it takes nearly four 12oz bottles of Yellow HEAT to equal the output of one quart of ethanol. At least those are the results I have gotten testing a couple of different alcohol burners in my kitchen using a thermometer and a stop watch.

Edit: Trying to get back to the OP's original thought. Four bottles of Yellow HEAT are typically more expensive than one qt tin of high quality denatured ethanol, especially when factoring in the heat output.

It sounds like for your usage the quarts or maybe buying more than one 12 ounce bottle of Heet at a time make sense.

I don't usually bother with hot beverages and generally do not heat water for washing pots or dishes. I similarly do not heat water for washing my body. I never cook lunch and only sometimes cook oatmeal at breakfast. If there is a diner I eat breakfast there and even when there isn't I might just gave a granola bar or two for breakfast. I do cook a hot meal a lot of the time for my evening meal, but not always. A quart of alcohol would usually last me for at very least several months on most of my tours. I think I only used two bottles of Heet between San Diego and Pensacola and I cooked dinner for the guy I was riding with some of the time.

Four bottles of Yellow HEAT are typically more expensive than one qt tin of high quality denatured ethanol, especially when factoring in the heat output.

Western Flyer, where in Portland have you been picking up your quart tins of denatured alcohol? Every time I've checked in local hardware stores, the per oz price of quarts of denatured alcohol is more, or at best, a few cents higher than the price per oz of HEET. Being a cheapskate, I stick with HEET, but haven't done enough comparison with denatured alcohol. The one time I used denatured it seemed awfully soot-tastic compared to yellow bottle HEET.

Western Flyer, where in Portland have you been picking up your quart tins of denatured alcohol?

I usually get the Klean-Strip Green at A-Boys, which has a store close to where I live. I think I paid $7.00 or $7.50 last time?? Lowes carries it for $6+ /qt. and even have gallon cans. I saw it at the Home Despot the other day in the paint section but I didn’t catch the price. The $2.00/qt Canadian methanol was at A-Boys, but that was before they disassociated from ACE and I haven’t check to see if they still carry it. Methanol is ubiquitous in Canada. It’s on display everywhere in little black bottles about the size of Yellow HEET. I once bought a bottle at a rural Canadian post office. Remember to figure in the calorie difference between Methanol and Ethanol. My very unscientific tests show between 15% and 30% difference depending on the percentage of ethanol in the DA. By the way the DA I have purchased in Canada is the hottest and cleanest burning I have ever used. I think they must have very tight purity standards.

Thanks, Western Flyer. The $7 for a quart is still more than HEET, as Fred Meyer sells a 12 oz bottle of HEET for $2. But I may try some of the DA and experiment with burn times and all that.

Adventurepdx, I saw the K-S Green at my local Burlinggame Freddy's. Don't remember the price. (For the rest of you following this side thread that's PDX talk ;))

I can't speak to the cost of fuel for a stove but I am well versed in the food industry. I retired after spending 32 years there and can say without hesitation the package size has nothing to do with consumer preference and everything to do with margins, profit and wall street expectations.

It's a game of cat and mouse where the sellers frequently try to trick the buyers. Smaller packaging does a good job of that since so many do not pay attention to it. An easy way around it is to compare the price per ounce, rather than the price per container. My grocery store usually posts both of those prices, making it easy. But sometimes I have to use my phone's calculator.

Sorry, just catching up on a few old threads...including this one.

As I said before, to avoid sooting up the bottom of the pot you have to keep a blue flame. A yellow flame will cause soot. To keep the flame blue you have to watch how high up off the stove the pot is. The pot height is VERY CRITICAL to the successful use of isopropyl alcohol stoves. I've simply cut the top off a pop can and used it to test. No other fancy modifications to the pop can, just cut the top off it. I was able to get and keep the blue flame. To get higher temp out, so it doesn't take 45 minutes to boil water, you do have to make a few modifications, jetting, to allow more air to get into the stove. The key critical factor in controlling the blue flame/lack of soot is to control pot height.

No.