Cyclocross - Retroshift advice?

Hey gang,

I'm thinking ahead to my next bike, I want to build up a Surly Crosscheck frame and use it for commuting, light touring, maybe a little trail riding. (I don't want to buy a new complete build because I don't want bar-ends).

Then I saw these mofos: http://retroshift.com/ and now I am certain I want these on my bike. Unless you CX guys know that these are actually crap. But they look like they work very well, and it would be a distinctive, unique touch that would help my bike stand out from the crowd (which hopefully won't get it stolen!)

So apart from the question of does anybody have experience with retroshifters and are they as good as they claim, I am also not sure whether to go bare and put on 3x8 indexed shifters (which I would have to find), or just buy the full 3x9 version with retroshift's own shifters on. ($129 for a bare pair, or $189 with their indexed 3x9 shift levers). (Or buy a brand-new Crosscheck, swap out the levers for retrofits and move the bar-ends onto them)

I have this impression that for ultra durability, it is best to stick with 8sp, because with 9+ speed drivetrains, the chains get so narrow and weak that they break a lot more easily. Is this just a myth? I am not a powerful biker (I have never broken a chain before), is this even something I should worry about?

I wouldn't worry about the durability of 9 speed.

I don't have any hands-on experience with the retroshift setup, but my feeling is it will work about as well as the bar end shifters mounted to it. Bar end shifters are about as bulletproof a shifting method as you can get. Shimanos are good. I'm not sure about the stock Retroshift shifters. They look like Microshift to me (same as IRD uses). They are probably fine too.

The real question is ergonomics. If you like to cruise on and shift from the hoods they would probably be fine. If you live in the drops maybe less so.

Unless you have specific parts in mind for a build or have stuff you want to use I'd get the complete and move the bar ends over to the Retroshift levers.

The stock cassette goes up to 32, giving you a 36x32 low gear with the double that comes with the complete. That should be enough for just about any situation.

Thx, yes I am a hoods rider, not a drops rider. I try to get myself into the drops more often because I know I should be there, but it always has to be a conscious effort (and doesn't last long). And my current road bike has the sora brifters with the little thumb levers for upshifting, which are not accessible from the drops, and I have never had a problem with those.

Also might want to look into a pair of Kelly Take-Offs.

Sorry, no experience with them, though I DID nonetheless spout some opinions on them earlier in the year :innocent:: Retroshift Brake and Shift levers for Cyclocross. (http://goabloc.tumblr.com/post/13639881994/retroshift-brake-and-shift-levers-for-cyclocross)

Since then I've actually done some cross races and would rescind somewhat my concerns about safety and vulnerability, though these aren't really such a concern for you since you aren't planning to race cyclocross. I still think it's a bummer that they're basically unusable from the drops - it looks like it would be less awkward to to reach for downtube shifters from the drops than to reach for these. Obviously, fine on the hoods. But again, this is just sheer uninformed opinionating. I would love to try them out someday.

I think the main reason that they get my goat is that they just look so... hacky. That's fine for Kelly Take-Offs, which if we are honest ARE a hack - they're intended to be clamped down under a brake lever, for crying out loud. But these are custom made and expertly machined... and look, if anything, even hackier thank the Take-Offs. And yet, with shifters, they cost almost $200! You can buy a used set of Dura-Ace 7700 shifters for that money; I know, because I did. Of course, you only get 9 speeds instead of 10, but that's a minor quibble especially since you didn't want to go for more than 9 anyway. But all of this could well be me just being an old stick in the mud, especially as I haven't tried the things!

I don't know, if you're that into them, I would go for it. They would certainly be unique.

Interesting those Kelley take-offs. IMO the are more hacky than retroshifts, but the price is certainly better. I'll have to think a little more about both, but I'd lean towards the retroshift.

I have a pair of the Retroshifts and they're a quality product. I used them for a while on my touring bike with Shimano 8s bar end levers, but recently set them up with 6s Shimano DT shifters and moved them to my tandem.

Kelly Take Offs? No, thanks. I'd much rather use bar end shifters.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8435/7819775160_ca30ddfeea_b.jpg

RubeRad - I will refrain from stating anything as to how Awesome our shifters are as I do work for the company and want to be fair. If you check out Retroshift on Facebook you will see some signs of the systems ability with photos and results from a couple of the recent cx races here in the muddy PDX area. Think we already have 3 wins with bikes sporting our system.

Just wanted to note. Shimano 9sp bar-end or down-tube shifters and Retroshift 9sp shifters are compatible with Shimano 8sp. This could be an option if you have 8sp parts you want to use. As for as 9sp I would have NO worries as to its durability. It is probably on balance the best of the lot and popular for cx. People are moving to 10sp however simply as that is more common in the pits if you need to swap out a wheel.

Happy riding and may the mud at least taste good!

The Goats

Thx for the info, Goats! (may the mud at least taste good -- that's a good one)

When you say compatible with 8sp, do you mean in friction mode, or that the indexing/cog spacing is also the same and I just lose a click on one end or the other?

And as for Awesomeness, would it not be self-evident and fair to say that they shift exactly as Awesome as the system would have shifted with the levers in their original downtube or bar-end installation? And beyond that it's an ergonomic consideration to install the levers instead onto the brakes -- and sideways.

Interesting, I've never seen that before. IF you get them let us know what you think.

Thx for the info, Goats! (may the mud at least taste good -- that's a good one)

When you say compatible with 8sp, do you mean in friction mode, or that the indexing/cog spacing is also the same and I just lose a click on one end or the other?

And as for Awesomeness, would it not be self-evident and fair to say that they shift exactly as Awesome as the system would have shifted with the levers in their original downtube or bar-end installation? And beyond that it's an ergonomic consideration to install the levers instead onto the brakes -- and sideways.

Shimano 8 and 9 speed cassettes have the same spacing between cogs. You can use a 9sp Shimano down-tube shifter for instance with an 8sp cassette and it will work fine but you will have one extra click on the shifter. So yes you can have index 8sp with our 9sp shifter. We reccomend you put the extra click at the high (high gear - small cog) end of the range.

Awesomeness - Yes bar-end shifters can teach those heavy and complex integrated shifting systems a lesson or two in speed and ability. Our shifters will give you all that you would expect from the superior simplicity of a bar-end shifter but placed in such a way that you can utilize this while still maintaining control of the brakes.

Most awsome is that we get to call our 'shift lever on front of brake lever' - "REACH AROUND" Technology. None of the competitors can claim that! ;)

Shimano 8 and 9 speed cassettes have the same spacing between cogs.

I'm actually pretty certain that this is NOT the case. According to Sheldon Brown (http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml), there is a spacing difference of about 0.5 mm; that doesn't sound like much, but it's enough that it won't work. This matches my personal experience - Shimano 7 and 8 speed cassettes are in fact close enough (0.2 mm) that 8 speed shifters can work well on a 7 speed cassette, and I've done this myself. But I wouldn't recommend trying to use 9 speed shifters on an 8 speed cassette, I really don't think it will work.

Most awsome is that we get to call our 'shift lever on front of brake lever' - "REACH AROUND" Technology. None of the competitors can claim that! ;)

Here's your new marketing slogan: "Let Retroshift give you a REACH AROUND!" I'm not interested in any monetary reimbursement for my creative genius, just send me a pair of 9sp CX2 and we'll call it even.

I'm actually pretty certain that this is NOT the case. According to Sheldon Brown (http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml), there is a spacing difference of about 0.5 mm; that doesn't sound like much, but it's enough that it won't work. This matches my personal experience - Shimano 7 and 8 speed cassettes are in fact close enough (0.2 mm) that 8 speed shifters can work well on a 7 speed cassette, and I've done this myself. But I wouldn't recommend trying to use 9 speed shifters on an 8 speed cassette, I really don't think it will work.

Listen to GROLBY!

Actually as good as Sheldon Brown is I would say default to your LBS.

Goats

Here's your new marketing slogan: "Let Retroshift give you a REACH AROUND!" I'm not interested in any monetary reimbursement for my creative genius, just send me a pair of 9sp CX2 and we'll call it even.

Yes RubeRad that is where I was going. ;)

Listen to GROLBY!

Actually as good as Sheldon Brown is I would say default to your LBS.

Goats

Always good advice! The LBS bit I mean, I'm right about as often as a stopped clock.

For what it's worth, I think 8-speed bar end shifters might still be available, and those would work great!

For what it's worth, I think 8-speed bar end shifters might still be available, and those would work great!

Well I'd be balancing $129+cost of 8-sp shifters against $189+cost of 9-speed cassette, I think the 9-speed option is better as I'd like to have a wider cassette anyways.

Thx for all the advice...

Another question if anybody's still out there...

Retroshifters come with either 9sp or 10sp bar-end shifters, but what about the left/front? Does it make a difference for double/triple?

If, as marqueemoon suggests above, the levers are rebranded from microshift, this from RivBikes (http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/sh4.htm) implies that the left is friction-only -- is that the case? Or is this another case of "it's triple-indexed, but set your limit screws and you will only need two of the indices"?

Actually I think I would prefer friction for the front. That's really where you want infinite trim. (Isn't that the Campy way? Or did they eventually start indexing their left brifters?)

but.. how can you add another cog, 9 in the space of 8 and still have the same spacing,
between them ..
if so there will be no market for 9 speed chains..

Have not managed the Multiple Universe 10th dimension thing,
of sub atomic physics, 'string theory' yet. stuck with just 4.

Not sure where yer goin there fietsbob, I think we've established that 8/9 are not the same spacing, and 8/9 indexed shifting are not compatible.

Right now my bike has a 3x8 sora/tiagra brifter setup (although the RD is labeled "9-speed" the brifter/cassette are 8), this will all be going onto my new crosscheck frame for starters. Someday, I will buy a 9sp cassette and 9sp retroshifters, and I expect to be good to go. I'm just trying to figger out whether the front shifter is indexed or friction, and if indexed, does it care about double/triple?

i heard Kona might make a retroshift equipped bike. i do not work for a bike shop, i just overheard that in a bike shop. might be interesting....

I thought half the point of barcons, DT, friction, and other Retro type control levers was they're less expensive than brifters. At the price they're asking why not just get some used brifters off ebay?

retroshift vs brifter....
same price level, really just a question of slight durability in the simpler mechanism, vs the ability to shift from the drops
not that compelling a trade off in my book, maybe if they cost less than the alternatives...

Retro shift is much simpler, than brifters, but you can still do both actions, from the hoods.

seems to me, reading about mucked up brifters, simpler is good.

they ,may be pushing the price to follow the maximizing returns
that the system of markets runs on.

+ economy of scale, they are small, Shimano is Huge.

getting into the numbers of OEM equipping, is how SRAM
went from a grip shift after market, sold just to bike shops
[expensive, then]

To a mass producer and buying out other companies.

if they do get Kona to buy 10,000+, for their assembly lines, overseas
then maybe the price can come down..

I thought half the point of barcons, DT, friction, and other Retro type control levers was they're less expensive than brifters. At the price they're asking why not just get some used brifters off ebay?

retroshift vs brifter....
same price level, really just a question of slight durability in the simpler mechanism, vs the ability to shift from the drops
not that compelling a trade off in my book, maybe if they cost less than the alternatives...

If you want to shift from the drops, then you're right, it's not a good trade-off. My current road bike has sora brifters with the thumb-tab for return-shifting, so I have never shifted from the drops and I have never felt inconvenienced.

And frankly, I want to be a little different. Call me a hipster...

I've not used the specific shifters that the Retroshifts come equipped with, but if it's like Shimano, the front shifter just has a lot of tiny "notches" kind of like an old micro-ratchet, but not. It's more like friction shifting, yes, and the same shifter will behave the same with a triple or double setup up front.

i tried the cx1 on a bike in a workstand yesterday and it was a nice crisp feel. something reassuring about indexed shifting. the mechanic said the shift lever itself was microshift. the finish looked nice too. i can see the allure of a product like this though, especially here in the NW where roadies and sasquatch tend to resemble one another and road conditions are wet and leafy 8 months of the year.

Some confusion (sure we are to blame for some of it!).

Some points I hope will help.

Left Shifter - Left/Front shifter is FRICTION only and can be used with a double or triple. It can also be trimmed which is one of the advantages it has over using Shimano.

9/10 Speed - 9sp only works with 9 speed cassettes, 10 speed only works with cassettes. My apologies for brain fart. A 9sp System can be upgraded to a 10 speed system with little pain or cost. Our system can also be used as a friction only system if the CX levers are purchased without 9 or 10 speed option and you instead mount some friction levers (Rivendell Silver Shifters work great).

Kona – Personally I think Kona are one of the smartest companies with bike design and spec but I would say it is unlikely that any major brand of bike will pick up our system this early in the game. We are certainly not talking to anyone about such. Major issue would be that we do not have production capability yet that could fill such an order and it is just not really our focus. We are exceptionally busy keeping up with demand from our dealers in Japan and have not yet started to market to US bike shops (but we will soon). We have also had offers from US distributors but for now plan to sell directly to shops to offer shops better margin. This is important for us as well as making a US product we are keen to support the core foundation of the industry – Bike shops.

Retroshift brifter vs Campy/SRAM/Simano brifter – Sure we use a bar end type shift mechanism in our system which we see as a plus due to its reliability but really the similarity ends there. CX shifters are just another option in brifters (which all basically do the same thing):

Basic operations:
STI - brake lever and inboard sub lever
Ergopower – inboard sub lever and thumb button
SRAM – inboard sub lever (bi-directional)
CX – outboard sub lever (bi-directional)

Pricing – You can look at this many ways but keep this in mind: CX are half or less the cost of a set of Ultegra and 50 grams lighter as well as offering faster shifting ability in both directions as well as ability to shift more gears at one time. CX shifters provide a less restrictive shift cable routing which results in lower friction which results in a higher threshold to contaminates and better shifting under adverse conditions. If a unit is crashed (or dies somehow) we will re-build it to operational condition for $24. Much of the product is made from high quality US made machinhed parts (aluminum and stainless) and involve much US labor.

Downside – CX levers are not as pretty as a set of STI like Ultegra and do not shift from the drops. For a road rider with a beautiful road bike we are going to recommend (hell - even tell you) to use your STI! For a CX bike we are going to recommend you consider the cost savings and added performance capability offered by CX shifters. The money you save alone will buy you better tires and likely result in a faster bike.

Sasquatch – Happily we are not a corporation that is beholden to stock holders and under pressure to develop products to meet market sales numbers. Our goal is to make shifters to perform as best as possible in the very small market of ‘cross. People are not going to buy our products for looks but rather for performance and or performance advantages that come from saving money that can better be spent on other components.

CX shifters are still virtually unheard of and a tiny percent (of a percent) of the market. That said people are buying enough of them for us to be required to move production to a higher volume milling machine (still machined in the USA). We are also thrilled with the demographic who are using our shifters which tends towards the hard core racer and knowledgeable industry personal. These include everyone from staff at Cyclocross Magazine to local racer Ron Strasser (kudos to you sir!!!) who just won the Masters series of our local Cross Crusades series.

Will be working on a video (sooner than later it is hoped) that will better introduce those who have not tried the system to its function which telling from much of what is being mentioned is still not obvious. It is totally the case that people can have a CX shifter equiped bike right in front of their noses and still say stuff like "That won't work". We need to do a better job explaining and I think short of a test ride a video will come close.

Happy to be involved in explaining our product but do hope most of all that you are able to try it.

Cheers,


The Goats

Thx for the clarification -- you should maybe mention on your website somewhere that, for the shifters you sell, left/front is friction-only, and right/rear is indexed-only (9sp or 10sp version); and of course, whatever other levers somebody install onto naked retroshifters will be friction and/or indexed according to the capabilities of those levers. Maybe also mention that your levers are rebranded ("customized?") microshift levers, that would maybe help potential customers look up their tech specs -- depending on your partnering relationship with microshift, how you want to publicize that.

Regarding price, I think it is not quite a fair comparison for xenologer to criticize retroshifts for being as expensive as a used pair of brifters off of eBay. Let's wait until retroshifters also trickle into the resale market, then we can compare new-vs-new cost or used-vs-used cost.

Also, your $24 rebuild policy, even if it broke from a crash -- this is even better than a warranty! Is there any other bike component out there with a policy like that? I'd like to see somebody try that with a fork, "uh, Mr. Rock Shox customer service, so I totally bit it on this jump, or I had a run-in with a car, my fork now looks like a corkscrew, as you can see because I mailed it to you with a $24 check, please repair/replace, thanks!" I would speculate that Retroshift, being a new operation, is offering this kind of coverage to attract customers to a radically different product, give them more peace of mind, but do you intend to maintain this kind of super-warranty forever?

Anyways, as for me, I'm sold! I plan to buy a pair of CX-2 9sp in 2013 -- I hope that qualifies me as an early-adopter!

Will be working on a video (sooner than later it is hoped) that will better introduce those who have not tried the system to its function...

PS I think the side-by-side shifter/RD video on the front page already says it all. Not sure why there would be any questions left (except of course, all of MY questions! thanks for your feedback)

Hey one more thing, Mr. Retroshift, check out the ad copy from Rivendell where they sell microshift levers; they buy left-only and sell them as friction-only pairs. Retroshift might consider the same deal and offer not just 9sp and 10sp, but also an all-friction version. That would also appeal to a certain audience, old-school touring nuts (who are also into hyper-reliability)

Buy the complete bike and take advantage of Surly's/QBP's low component pricing. Sell stock shifters or just get shifter-less Retroshifts and do the conversion/retrofit.

An ibis / retroshift collabo could lead to the ultimate marketing slogan...

RubeRad – There is MUCH we should get on the site when we have time. Also need to work on documentation to go with product. One step at a time.

$24 for us to re-build a crashed lever is something we do not plan to discontinue. We need to be profitable so that we can continue to be a viable business and develop our products. We do fel however that if a customer has bought into our system that we have a responsibility to support them in its use (which is primarily racing cx). We may lose a little in a re-build and may have to adjust it a little in time but think it is well worth it.

Front page video is neat and gets point across of basic operation but still does not address people fears that shift levers will interfere with braking, ease of shifting while braking, shifting with palms of hands resting on very top of hoods etc (this one is really nice for when JRA) and various ways to shift etc.

Rivendell copy. A left bar end shifter can quite easily be mounted to a right bar end. A left bar end shifter can be mounted to a left CX system but not to a right one. We generally recommend the Rivendell down tube friction shift levers (sold in a pair) to customers to achieve a friction set up. It is really quite super.

Early adopter – maybe, but if you buy before December 15th you will at least be able to say were a user from our fledgeling first year of business.

MileHighMark – I might suspect from the emails we receive that a good percentage of our units go to CrossCheck’s and Vaja’s etc to do just this.

Goats

I saw these shifters in person at a fundraiser for the Alpenrose Velodrome. It's a pretty cool system and perfect for CX or even touring.

I've not used the specific shifters that the Retroshifts come equipped with, but if it's like Shimano, the front shifter just has a lot of tiny "notches" kind of like an old micro-ratchet, but not. It's more like friction shifting, yes, and the same shifter will behave the same with a triple or double setup up front.

ColonelJLloyd - Our 9 and 10 speed shift levers are what you might call 'micro index' or even better 'teeny weeny index' and basically feel like a friction lever with smooth motion one direction. Very like a Dura-Ace 7800 left bar-end shifer just a bit ligher in weight and action. Very nice.

Fietsbob - Regarding cost. Appart from the bare brakes from Tektro the whole thing (producing the system) takes place in the USA. Dissasembly, machining of parts, anodizing, laser engraving, assembly etc. We absolutely could sell them for cheaper if we did so direct. We chose to sell them via bike shops to do our part to support the industry. We also (I suspect) have ridiculously large R&D budget as compared to our competitors (as a percentage of actual sales). Many parts and sets of shifters are given to local and national riders to test and provide feedback. Our goal is to provide the best possible shifters for CX and as such we see Ultegra as a good bar to beat. We are more than happy with the price when compared head to head with 6700. You are very right on the economy of scale - we are just for now at least choosing to follow a different path from the bigger is better. :)

The Goats
http://www.cxmagazine.com/retroshift-cx2-cyclocross-shifters-brake-levers-review

PDX alone will have a big market to serve..

racing always made getting a Car, to drive, when I was younger.. so un affordable..
so I just owned the bike type.. then.





Cross crusade abandoned the County Fairgrounds Halloween weekend
in favor of Bend.. from what I see you get drier weather, there [wealthier town too]

so I cannot even say, "see you on the Beer tent"