Touring - How does your bike handle UNloaded

So I'm the owner of a disc trucker and did a 1500 mile tour over 20 days earlier this year. I weigh about 250lbs and had about 50lbs of gear on the bike via front and real panniers and a trunk bag. I really haven't done much loaded up riding at all since I got back from the tour but the bike is my regular commuter. Today I went to pick up my farm share veggies and being that we are getting late in the year there were tons of heavier root type veggies; butternut squash, potatoes, turnips, cabbage, etc. I probably had about 30 or so lbs loaded on the bike and for whatever reason, the bike just really seems to handle BETTER with a load on it, then unloaded. I can't quite put a finger on it, it just seems to be a smoother more floaty type of ride. Anyone else experience this? I'm kind of at the point where I want another bike for a commuter because other than the ability to put bigger tires on which is great for the potholed roads of nyc, the surly is just kind of sluggish especially since I ride so many recreational miles on a carbon race bike Sram Force all around. I don't think I can justify a 3rd bike, yet I don't know if I should sell off the trucker as inthe warm weather months i will potentially be loading it up and hauling some weight with it and it seems to do that so well.

The word "Trucker" in the name isn't just window dressing.

You might be a candidate for a Cross-Check. Bit lighter and nimbler. Still runs good sized tires. Will carry some stuff.

54cm, 26" LHT, 80 pounds with gear and water...4,080 miles over a 70 day period (TransAm) this summer. She feels much better loaded!

I've put more than 58,000km on a Fuji Touring doing randonnees, touring, commuting, training and leisure riding. It started out with 32mm 700C tyres, and over a period I put narrower wheels and 23mm tyres on it to improve its speed performance. I even toured on that tyre-wheel combination, but I did wreck a couple of rims doing so.

Maybe invest in a second pair of narrower wheels and tyres with the same cassette set-up so you can just swap them with the originals.

Having said all that, touring frames such as the Fuji Touring, the LHT and Trek 520 are designed to be loaded and to ride and handle best that way.

You might also consider reducing the pressure in your tyres compared with what you run when loaded. I usually run between 90 and 95 psi with all my single bikes, and maybe up to 100 if I have a load on board. The lower pressure improves ride and makes the bike a little less twitchy over bumps in corners.

I'm kind of at the point where I want another bike for a commuter because other than the ability to put bigger tires on which is great for the potholed roads of nyc, the surly is just kind of sluggish especially since I ride so many recreational miles on a carbon race bike Sram Force all around. I don't think I can justify a 3rd bike, yet I don't know if I should sell off the trucker as inthe warm weather months i will potentially be loading it up and hauling some weight with it and it seems to do that so well.[/QUOTE]

Ok, you obviously enjoy the utility of LHT. Is the problem of a third bike cost or storage for three bikes? If it's cost the solution is easy, don't get a $1500 bike. Get a $400 Bikes Direct Motobecane and spend some time assembling it. If your commuter needs to look understated go to it with a can of spray paint.


In the 80's when I rode a lot a lot of poor racers kludged together commuters out of everything from three spds to old racing bikes with outdated equip.
You might look at that racing bike and ask whether it really meets your needs. If you train/race keep it. If you need a beat 'em up road bike that can take fatter tires, 28-32mm, for urban commuting AND fast recreational rides there are bikes that can pull that off better than your carbon racer that probably can't take larger than 25mm tires. While you can perceive the difference of that lighter road bike it doesn't make a practical/measurable difference in recreational riding if the rider is packing extra weight.
If you're a 250lb person with a carbon road bike on 25mm tires and you want something for fast riding AND potholes it seems to me the carbon road bike should be replaced with a road/cross bike that can take 32mm tires.

Btw, if your LHT is 700c consider getting a Cross-check frame and transferring parts over. You won't have "three bikes" you'll have two bikes and a frame.
It's what I did when I got a Cross-check frame. I had a 700c LHT that I was replacing with a 26"wheel LHT. The parts went to the cross-check frame and I had no problem selling the 700cLHT. In your case you don't have to give up the LHT frame. Btw you might see what happens putting your light road bike wheels on the LHT with 28-32mm tires and stripping all the touring stuff off. It might be all the difference you're looking for.




Only reason I caution selling the LHT is that replacement cost will be high.

Touring bikes get more use than the lighter one , here..
because i tend to need pannier space to pick up a few things
before returning home, and carrying foul weather gear for changing weather.

Bike #3 , a folding bike wont take-up much room when not being ridden.

other bikes, here, include one that I just left the Studded tires on.
So Freeze up is coped with by just checking the tire pressure,
rather than pulling wheels off to change tires.

54cm, 26" LHT, 80 pounds with gear and water...4,080 miles over a 70 day period (TransAm) this summer. She feels much better loaded!
I KNOW YOU! YOU ARE DALE! I'm Dave, my buddy Todd and I met you at Gerty's Country Store on our way out to Joplin! I recognized the "threeisacharm" from your crazy guy on a bike journal! How's it going?! I read through most of your journal, how did Daniels health end up?

Regarding the bike, I agree, it rides so frigging great fully loaded, I just can't place exactly what it is about it, maybe because objects in motion stay in motion so once that baby gets going she really moves, but it also just has such a nice balanced feel. When it's unloaded, she just doesn't seem to feel quite right.

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Still rides fine in my cases..

My Brompton Without the usual load in the front bag feels oddly light.
[it is low, 35mm, trail]

the substantial tube set that makes a Touring bike work so well carrying weight ,

will feel less resilient unloaded, than a light DB tubeset , framed bike.

.. and my cadence and gear choices put me off the back of competitive minded group rides.

I'm the Tortoise in a race with a Hare., but I can go a long ways in a 3 month period.

all scenarios i have thought about. Love Bikes direct. My carbon bike is the immortal fire, it's a phenomenal bike, can't beat it for 1900 bucks. I've thought about getting some type of custom steel frame bike that will allow for a 28 or 32 on the rear which could make my race styled rides much better but there also aren't many good racing tires in those sizes, you really start to get some tires that don't have great rolling resistance and trust me, with some of the guys I ride with, it matters. I don't race but I do have a racing license and am probably going to start doing some races next year, I do a few training rides with guys that race so getting rid of the high performance bike isn't an option, it's too much fun. I am wondering if a CX bike is the way to go. It seems like geometry will be similar enough to a racing bike that I shouldnt lose any speed but another issue is that since I commute all over NYC and lock my bike up outside, my commuter really can't have nice parts on it. I know I can make the frame look beat up but the theives here aren't dumb, they can spot 105/ultegra, etc from a mile away. hell i've had 2 sets of flatbar shifters stolen.

as for whether it's a money or a space issue, it's mostly a space issue. I don't like leaving my bikes outside although I do have a backyard here in the city, so I do have the option of storing one outside and even covering it with a tarp. Thats probably what would happen with the trucker. A big part of me really wants to sell the trucker but there is also sentimental value, the tour I did on it was a big charity effort and I feel like I should keep that bike forever as a reminder of what I did. ugh, decisions, decisions. I guess the original point of my post was trying to understand exactly what it is about a touring bike that makes it so much slower than a road bike. Some of it could be the added weight, it is twice as heavy as my CF bike. I could take off the rack and fenders and try to see how it rides then. I really dont' think it's an aerodynamics issue as the surly is just seriously slower than the road bike. I guess I should just take it out for a measured ride and really try to quantify how much slower it is. I'm also wondering if I need to double check things like BB bearings and hub bearings to make sure I don't have some huge amount of drag. Lastly, I am running a dynamo hub upfront which adds weight and resistance but is really great for night time commuting.

Thanks for listening to all my random musings! Part of me just wants to tinker with building another bike I think!

My Brompton Without the usual load in the front bag feels oddly light.
I just don't know that I can get into the folding bike world. Of course i alsways thought bikes with fenders were dorky but now i have them!.

Both my commute bike (Fuji Touring) and my spare touring bike (Randonee, nicknamed "The Iron Pig") feel like sporty rides when I take the loads off. OK, the Randonee handles 20 pounds in the rear without much change, but my first ride on it was the last 4400 miles of a cross-country trip with a front and rear load of 40-65 pounds -- thus the name, "Pig".

I think the biggest problem with handling is putting too much weight up front. I don't have a low trail bike to compare it with, but I think just the extra inertia required to turn the wheel deadens the feel.

Need another bike? N+1, baby! Seriously, though, I think I adjust to a bike in about 5 minutes, and then I don't notice it underneath me -- at least if there's some decent scenery around. Strip malls don't count.

I've thought about getting some type of custom steel frame bike that will allow for a 28 or 32 on the rear which could make my race styled rides much better but there also aren't many good racing tires in those sizes, you really start to get some tires that don't have great rolling resistance and trust me, with some of the guys I ride with, it matters.


A big part of me really wants to sell the trucker but there is also sentimental value, the tour I did on it was a big charity effort and I feel like I should keep that bike forever as a reminder of what I did. ugh, decisions, decisions.

I guess the original point of my post was trying to understand exactly what it is about a touring bike that makes it so much slower than a road bike. Some of it could be the added weight, it is twice as heavy as my CF bike. I could take off the rack and fenders and try to see how it rides then. I really dont' think it's an aerodynamics issue as the surly is just seriously slower than the road bike. I guess I should just take it out for a measured ride and really try to quantify how much slower it is. I'm also wondering if I need to double check things like BB bearings and hub bearings to make sure I don't have some huge amount of drag. Lastly, I am running a dynamo hub upfront which adds weight and resistance but is really great for night time commuting.

Thanks for listening to all my random musings! Part of me just wants to tinker with building another bike I think!

$.02 experiment to see what's real. There are LOTS of fast riding 28-32mm tires. When I raced stronger riders could dust me with heavier wheels/cheap tires and the difference I could feel/measure between tires was dwarfed by my conditioning that day. Above 18mph aerodynamics of you and the bike will matter more than the difference between a 25 and 28 mm tire and acceleration/hill speed will still get down to power/weight of the whole package not the % weight difference between two bikes.


I thought you liked the LHT for it's utility and it sounds like it'll be used again this summer. If you don't see yourself needing it's capabilities again sell it.

Assuming you have the same bar/seat position on the LHT as your road bike there are a few reasons it's slower. All that touring stuff on it, the tires, the wheels. That extra weight will be perceptible accelerating but once you put faster tires on your top speed isn't appreciably slower ASSUMING the same aero position. Most of what bothered me about the 700c LHT was the handling. It wasn't a point and shoot responsive handling bike, it's a bus. The 26" wheel LHT with 1.75" tires is noticeably slower than the 700c but the handling is more to my taste.
I doubt the bearings or dyno are the issue, you're simply comparing two bikes at opposite ends of the spectrum and want something in the middle. I'd still go for something you can swap major parts from the LHT and build up. Oh, and if you do get something "in the middle" that's good for commuting and 32mm tires with fenders and rack it still won't feel as fast as your road bike.

$.02 experiment to see what's real. There are LOTS of fast riding 28-32mm tires. When I raced stronger riders could dust me with heavier wheels/cheap tires and the difference I could feel/measure between tires was dwarfed by my conditioning that day. Above 18mph aerodynamics of you and the bike will matter more than the difference between a 25 and 28 mm tire and acceleration/hill speed will still get down to power/weight of the whole package not the % weight difference between two bikes.


I thought you liked the LHT for it's utility and it sounds like it'll be used again this summer. If you don't see yourself needing it's capabilities again sell it.

Assuming you have the same bar/seat position on the LHT as your road bike there are a few reasons it's slower. All that touring stuff on it, the tires, the wheels. That extra weight will be perceptible accelerating but once you put faster tires on your top speed isn't appreciably slower ASSUMING the same aero position. Most of what bothered me about the 700c LHT was the handling. It wasn't a point and shoot responsive handling bike, it's a bus. The 26" wheel LHT with 1.75" tires is noticeably slower than the 700c but the handling is more to my taste.
I doubt the bearings or dyno are the issue, you're simply comparing two bikes at opposite ends of the spectrum and want something in the middle. I'd still go for something you can swap major parts from the LHT and build up. Oh, and if you do get something "in the middle" that's good for commuting and 32mm tires with fenders and rack it still won't feel as fast as your road bike.
okay you bring up a couple of great points. first one is positioning, nowhere near one another (nor should they be really) truth be told I do not love the fit of the trucker. part of it is that i"m used to aggressive road geometry, the other part is that i think the 60cm is just too darn big, despite me being 6'3. the reach just seems sooo long. I shortened up the stem but still don't love it. I love the tires that are on it, randonneur hypers which are very light considering they are 700x40 and I do realize I could try going with them in 32 and that may make it feel a bit more snappy. I really wish I could put my finger on it, its not even that the bike is necessarily all that slow, something just doesn't feel nearly as good riding it unloaded as it does loaded. maybe the added weight is making the frame flex and feel springy? I dunno. I rode a rental MTB a few weeks back and actually did 18 miles on it, that thing was a real bear. When I got back to my trucker it felt great again. I think it's maybe just my perceptions. It's starting to get cold here in NY. When I ride the trucker to commute i'm bundled up in workout pants or jeans and wearing a winter coat. When I'm on the race bike I'm spandexed out. But at the same time, when I rode the trucker home with the veggies loaded up last night I had the "AHHHHHH" moment of being taken back to my tour and the smoothe ride that it was.

I should just build another in between bike, I really want a CX or a 29er but there is just nowhere with dirt here in NYC to ride them

DiscTruck, sounds like you've put your finger on it. It's best with a pile of crap on it otherwise you'd rather ride something that fits and "rides" better whatever that may be. Personally I think the fit should feel good loaded or not. The fit on my 56cm 700c LHT was good, I didn't like how it handled, loaded or not. The fit on the 56cm 26" wheel version fits well but just as important I like how it rides loaded or unloaded.
Sounds like a new bike is in order. Can't beat the versatility of a Cross-Check, TriCross or similar bike that can take 35mm tires and fenders. Wholesale replacement of the LHT sounds easy but if you think you might continue in the disc/29r direction a new frame and parts swap could be fun.

Check this out

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/tricross/tricrosssportdisccompact

One benefit of folding bikes , in N+1 situation,
you can always find a place to put it in your House.

In the car Boot and so forth..
I have 2 bikes , both with a 47 wide tire
Diameter matters .. the difference between
the 26 and the 20 " wheel is a world apart..

Go Fast Bike you have the skinny tire,larger rim 451 20"
like Bike Fridays Pocket Rocket.

There are also NonFolding small wheel bikes in mini-velo category
popular with Asian riders in small apartments . the smaller wheel just Occupies less space.
Shimano , naturally has asmall wheel Cassette & hub , the Caprio.. 9-26t to run the regular cranks
like 53-39.

I KNOW YOU! YOU ARE DALE! I'm Dave, my buddy Todd and I met you at Gerty's Country Store on our way out to Joplin! I recognized the "threeisacharm" from your crazy guy on a bike journal! How's it going?! I read through most of your journal, how did Daniels health end up?

Regarding the bike, I agree, it rides so frigging great fully loaded, I just can't place exactly what it is about it, maybe because objects in motion stay in motion so once that baby gets going she really moves, but it also just has such a nice balanced feel. When it's unloaded, she just doesn't seem to feel quite right.

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Great ride for you Dave!! Yeah, you got me! Daniel is doing ok, I haven't seen him in quite some time now. I am busy back in the world of the working...hoping to do another ride in the future...hopefully riding on our tandem, self contained to/from somewhere....we haven't nailed down a time or location yet.

OK folks, maybe I'm too excited about my "new" to me LHT, but it's a 58 cm with 700cc wheels and I just rode it unloaded. I just "loved" it and could not find a more confortable and versatile bike. I have not tried it loaded yet and will not until next Spring, so, probably I will be even happier. :)
Now, if you are used to a racing bike, I don't think you will like the LHT. But this should not be a surprise, right?

Now, if you are used to a racing bike, I don't think you will like the LHT.


Only if you are expecting your LHT to ride like your "racing" bike. I ride a road bike and an LHT unloaded and loaded. I like riding both bikes. I do think the LHT feels better loaded that unloaded. As one BF member once put it, when you stand up and try to stomp up a hill, the unloaded LHT seems to tell you to sit down.

Only if you are expecting your LHT to ride like your "racing" bike. I ride a road bike and an LHT unloaded and loaded. I like riding both bikes. I do think the LHT feels better loaded that unloaded. As one BF member once put it, when you stand up and try to stomp up a hill, the unloaded LHT seems to tell you to sit down.
well put, my only thought is that it's just that the frame is that much more flexy for comfort purposes. I've said from day one that my cf race bike is like a Kawaski street bike and the surly is like a Harley. you can appreciate both, but it's just weird it truly seems to be a BETTER ride loaded than unloaded. its not necessarily due to speed just something about the balance and comfort. Perhaps by loading weight on the panniers you get the effect that a tightrope walker has with a long pole???? it's amazing how easy you can ride an lht fully loaded front and rear with no hands

As one BF member once put it, when you stand up and try to stomp up a hill, the unloaded LHT seems to tell you to sit down.

Perfect

As said before, the LHT was built for loaded touring. You'll just have to get over that fact, and get on with riding it.

I think what I really need to do is try it out with some narrower tires. I bought the 700x40 hypers because I knew it would be my 250lbs plus 50lbs of gear. Me riding it unloaded, I don't needs such volume. Perhaps I just need to throw some gp 4 season 32c's on it and call it a day. IT probably still will have a bit of a strange feel but should be a little quicker to accelerate

http://www.bikeman.com/BK8214.html

Only if you are expecting your LHT to ride like your "racing" bike. I ride a road bike and an LHT unloaded and loaded. I like riding both bikes. I do think the LHT feels better loaded that unloaded. As one BF member once put it, when you stand up and try to stomp up a hill, the unloaded LHT seems to tell you to sit down.

+1

Here's my 54cm, 26in LHT at its best. For everything else there's N+1.

I think what I really need to do is try it out with some narrower tires. I bought the 700x40 hypers because I knew it would be my 250lbs plus 50lbs of gear. Me riding it unloaded, I don't needs such volume. Perhaps I just need to throw some gp 4 season 32c's on it and call it a day. IT probably still will have a bit of a strange feel but should be a little quicker to accelerate

The information in your earlier post about the 40mm tyres is a bit more helpful. It's a bit like a Prado or Pajero fitted with wide, ultra-high profile off-road tyres, then expecting great performance on the highway, both in terms of fuel consumption and handling.

Yes, put on the narrower tyres and see what happens.

As a footnote, I've never toured with 700C wheels on anything wider than 32mm. I don't see any point going wider... as I say, a waste of energy, and if the frame is designed properly, you shouldn't need 40mm or even 35mm.

I've toured on a converted MTB with 26x1.75 Town and Countries, and those plus the gearing were what convinced me to change to 700C and narrower tyres for touring. I did use 26x1.5 and 26x1.25 on a commuter bike for several years, but that was because I was traversing a rough entry road of a couple of kilometres to my employment.

I think what I really need to do is try it out with some narrower tires. I bought the 700x40 hypers because I knew it would be my 250lbs plus 50lbs of gear. Me riding it unloaded, I don't needs such volume. Perhaps I just need to throw some gp 4 season 32c's on it and call it a day. IT probably still will have a bit of a strange feel but should be a little quicker to accelerate

I'm not familiar with that model tire. If it's like too many hybrid tires, it's just stiff, and needs a load to help it flex. Try a tire with less mass on the sidewalls (which may force you to a narrower tire) and see if that helps.

If it's already got flexible sidewalls, you could try lowering the tire pressure 10-15 psi and see if it soaks up the road shock better while rolling.

You get used to things, I even got used to riding on the other side of the road,
in Ireland and UK after a while. [& getting into the left side of the car as a passenger]

I expect if you ride the unladen LHT long enough
when you pack it up again It will feel Odd for a while too..

I'm not familiar with that model tire. If it's like too many hybrid tires, it's just stiff, and needs a load to help it flex. Try a tire with less mass on the sidewalls (which may force you to a narrower tire) and see if that helps.

If it's already got flexible sidewalls, you could try lowering the tire pressure 10-15 psi and see if it soaks up the road shock better while rolling.

It's a nice big smooth rolling slick folding tire. Good choice for comfortable easy rolling tire and big load.

I think what I really need to do is try it out with some narrower tires. I bought the 700x40 hypers because I knew it would be my 250lbs plus 50lbs of gear. Me riding it unloaded, I don't needs such volume. Perhaps I just need to throw some gp 4 season 32c's on it and call it a day. IT probably still will have a bit of a strange feel but should be a little quicker to accelerate

Panaracer Pasela TG or T-Serv is a nice riding tire. You might consider changing your stem for more drop approximating your road bike position. But if that doesn't make the difference start shopping and test rides.

My tiny 42cm LHT rides a little better when it is loaded. I usually tour with ~30lbs of gear on it. I have 32 spoke wheels, Bontrager Mustangs on XT hubs, Schwalbe Marathon tires.

It doesn't ride too bad unloaded though. I've done 40-60 mile casual road rides on it just fine.

My 28 year old grand touring rig handles very well both loaded and unloaded. When travelling heavy, though, there is a bit of frame flex that can catch you by suprise. The 21 year old MTB feels rock solid when heavy, though I don't like taking it lDx loaded. The BD is ridden 20 miles light fairly often. My lovely wife will take it in favor of her own 19 year old MTB some times. Heavy, it has only gone on 7 mile grocery trips or 15 (one way) camping trips.
The BD, light or heavy, is just an animal of an entirely different order. Being the only bike in the house (of five) with disk brakes, it is just awesome loaded. Unloaded, it is about as fast as the grand touring rig. You just have to get used to not being in the middle of the bike. Kinda like a tandem without a stoker.

Well, compared to a carbon road bike, pretty much any steel frame bike with bigger tires is going to feel sluggish. I have a carbon Specialized and when I ride it for a while and then get on my steel Salsa Vaya, it feels like a pig. In all fairness, the Vaya is a very nice handling bike....especially with some road 32c tires. The Trucker is a touring specific setup and it does its job VERY well. On the other hand my Vaya is a nice jack of all trades bike that doesn't excel in any one area, but overall does a nice job as a commuter, touring bike and even a regular road bike. I would look at the CrossCheck or the Vaya if you need a real versatile bike.

all scenarios i have thought about. Love Bikes direct. My carbon bike is the immortal fire, it's a phenomenal bike, can't beat it for 1900 bucks. I've thought about getting some type of custom steel frame bike that will allow for a 28 or 32 on the rear which could make my race styled rides much better but there also aren't many good racing tires in those sizes, you really start to get some tires that don't have great rolling resistance and trust me, with some of the guys I ride with, it matters. I don't race but I do have a racing license and am probably going to start doing some races next year, I do a few training rides with guys that race so getting rid of the high performance bike isn't an option, it's too much fun. I am wondering if a CX bike is the way to go. It seems like geometry will be similar enough to a racing bike that I shouldnt lose any speed but another issue is that since I commute all over NYC and lock my bike up outside, my commuter really can't have nice parts on it. I know I can make the frame look beat up but the theives here aren't dumb, they can spot 105/ultegra, etc from a mile away. hell i've had 2 sets of flatbar shifters stolen.

as for whether it's a money or a space issue, it's mostly a space issue. I don't like leaving my bikes outside although I do have a backyard here in the city, so I do have the option of storing one outside and even covering it with a tarp. Thats probably what would happen with the trucker. A big part of me really wants to sell the trucker but there is also sentimental value, the tour I did on it was a big charity effort and I feel like I should keep that bike forever as a reminder of what I did. ugh, decisions, decisions. I guess the original point of my post was trying to understand exactly what it is about a touring bike that makes it so much slower than a road bike. Some of it could be the added weight, it is twice as heavy as my CF bike. I could take off the rack and fenders and try to see how it rides then. I really dont' think it's an aerodynamics issue as the surly is just seriously slower than the road bike. I guess I should just take it out for a measured ride and really try to quantify how much slower it is. I'm also wondering if I need to double check things like BB bearings and hub bearings to make sure I don't have some huge amount of drag. Lastly, I am running a dynamo hub upfront which adds weight and resistance but is really great for night time commuting.

Thanks for listening to all my random musings! Part of me just wants to tinker with building another bike I think!

Perhaps you could cobble together a cheap decent commuter from Ebay/Craig & make that the outside bike? Perhaps fixie or SS or Alfine IGH? Right now my main bike is a 2008 Randonee--I get a bit jealous when the guys swoosh past on their ultra-light road bikes but this gives me a good excuse for being slow! Loaded vs unloaded is hard for me to say since the loaded touring I've done is on nicer roads. Suburb/city rides often have bumpier sections which is one of the reasons I'm building up my new Disc Trucker: room for fatter tires but also longer wheelbase...I'm starting off with some lighter-weight 35 mm tires, hoping that I can keep higher tire pressure than on the Randonee while still getting a smooth ride.

Anyway one can make a touring bike a lot faster with light wheels & narrow tires but what would be the point if it causes punishment from bad local streets? Touring geometry isn't as nimble as road-race geometry but I used to messenger on different bikes incl touring & never had a problem threading thru traffic. Steel touring bikes are heavy, I'd love it if there were affordable Ti or CF touring frames but that ain't happening plus as folks note, the weight-savings gets swallowed up by heavy-duty components, racks etc. Seems like you already have most of the bases covered so why mess with success? OTOH I've ridden a friend's medium-price aluminum-framed Trek mtb-city bike & it's pretty surprising how light it is though that's with a smaller (womans') frame & no racks.

well to give you guys a bit of an update, I ended up building up a 29er and even riding on 2.1 Geax mexcal tubeless tires and a pogo stick of a fork it seems to move quicker than the lht. I did do a pretty nice build on it though with xt front and rear deraileurs, xt brakes and slx crank. One thing I don't like about the trucker is that I hate bar ends and I went with 8 speed 2300 series brifters during the initial build for durability sake. I think I may end up converting this bike to flat bars and going 10 speed with it. if I do any other tours it will probably be relatively local tours and being on the east coast your never too far from civilization if you have a catastrophic failure. I've seen slx cranks for $80 and the slx shifters for $40 from jensen. I already have a new chain that I got in a deal. I have store credit at an lbs that will get me a 10 speed cassette. perhaps I'm just too much of a tinkerer and thats what I really want to be doing with this bike!

DTMF, There is really no way that an unloaded tourer, regardless of brand, is going to feel nor perform like a race frame inspired roadie. I have about the closest apple to orange available to compare, a Cannondale crit bike and a Cannondale touring bike using the same frame technology. The two are still about as far apart as one can find! Because it may have reference, the two have a six lbs. difference.

The touring bike has a heavier wheelset and tires, slacker geometry and a longer wheelbase than the crit bike (or a less aggresive road frame)...typical touring stuff. For the initial build of the T bike I had the same fit parameters as my Cannondale 2.8 distance bike, which were slightly less aggresive than the crit bike's fitment. It didn't feel "quite right" loaded or unloaded. I eased up the fit to a slightly less aggresive posture than the 2.8's and the difference was dynamic. So much so that except for the crit bike, the other roadies are now sold.

My daughter's CX bike, now built with a very roadie configuration splits the difference, but still leans more towards the T bike simply because of wheelbase. A CX bike can still be used for touring, just not with expedition level weight.

Brad

DTMF, There is really no way that an unloaded tourer, regardless of brand, is going to feel nor perform like a race frame inspired roadie. I have about the closest apple to orange available to compare, a Cannondale crit bike and a Cannondale touring bike using the same frame technology. The two are still about as far apart as one can find! Because it may have reference, the two have a six lbs. difference.

The touring bike has a heavier wheelset and tires, slacker geometry and a longer wheelbase than the crit bike (or a less aggresive road frame)...typical touring stuff. For the initial build of the T bike I had the same fit parameters as my Cannondale 2.8 distance bike, which were slightly less aggresive than the crit bike's fitment. It didn't feel "quite right" loaded or unloaded. I eased up the fit to a slightly less aggresive posture than the 2.8's and the difference was dynamic. So much so that except for the crit bike, the other roadies are now sold.

My daughter's CX bike, now built with a very roadie configuration splits the difference, but still leans more towards the T bike simply because of wheelbase. A CX bike can still be used for touring, just not with expedition level weight.

Brad
Totally agree. Somewhere along the line people were thinking that I was expecting my touring bike to be a racer when really the crux of my initial post was that the bike seems to just flat out ride better loaded up as opposed to unloaded. by ride better speed is certainly part of that, but just the general feel of the bike seems much better. I'm still surprised at just how much slower than a regular road bike it is however, it's noticeably in the range of 3-5 mph slower to the point that over the next couple of winter months I think I'm just gonna tear her down, clean her up and inspect everything, heck for all I know I could have some really sticky hubs robbing me of my energy! I also plan to to try a racier tire although the randonneur hypers are quite race like for a wide touring tire.

I specifically got a light touring bike. For every loaded mile I ride, I have 5 unloaded miles. My Raleigh Port Townsend is quick and simple.

I'm sorry, I'll take any excuse to give my bike a shout-out. nobody ever cares!

Back when the Disc Trucker was the 4th bike (and most recent acquisition) in my arsenal... I honestly felt it was a stiffer ride with the same tires on it than my Aluminum Kona Jake cross bike was. This is my third steel bike, behind a Surly Steamroller and a 1990 Bianchi Giro.

I then did some loaded touring with it... let me correct that. OVERloaded touring with it, and it makes a lot more sense for that. Felt great. Then again, now that this is the only bike I ride, I love it both loaded and unloaded. Grocery runs, ride there with empty panniers and ride back with gallons of milk/orange juice/tons of food. Different feel there and back, both feel great.

There definitely is a likely 5% or so loss of speed in this bike compared to some steel cross bikes, or maybe even some aluminum bikes. I doubt it's much slower than that, the bike is a minor part of the weight of most people. I myself am around 215 pounds. I'm also 6'4", but either way, a 5% difference in weight from my 34 pound Disc Trucker to a 22-24 pound steel cross bike isn't going to be a big deal if it's not a race.

Where do you carry your weight when it is loaded?

When I first got my LHT, I loved it from the first ride out. But then that was in comparison to a hybrid that was a size or two too small that I had been riding for a year prior. The bike just felt more "planted," and I really liked that. It also was rather less nimble, and while I expect my speed differences were not really that great, it felt like it went a little slower or at least handled changes in speed less well than my other bike, but that all contributed to the smooth, consistent ride that I enjoyed.

But that ride is still relative because I felt like the positive ride qualities were improved when I put some weight up front. Being a heavy guy who already tends to ride more upright, I put plenty of weight on the rear even when unloaded. I never noticed any benefit to adding more weight in the back, but I did notice that for most of my riding, apart from the hills, a heavy load in the rear had surprising little effect on how the bike rode. But moving the weight to the front makes the front end even more planted, and while I'd always rather be lighter than heavier when tackling a hill, the bike handled better with the front tire weighted down.

Over the summer I took a brief bike tour, and after a few days of loaded riding, I had the opportunity to completely shed my load and do 20 to 30 miles with nothing but a mostly-empty backpack. I was amazed that the steering felt so "squirrely." It's never a description I thought I'd apply to my LHT, but it's all relative, and without the weight up front, the bike definitely handled differently and, to my mind, worse. But once the touring is over and the commuting returns, there's never any weight up front, and I quickly adjust. The differences seem drastic when you transition between loaded and unloaded, but after riding unloaded for a while, I don't think about it.

But tires also make a difference, although I am not sure about how much difference width makes. I've used tires between 32 and 40, and I've been happier with the 40. But that's not to say that a thinner tire might not feel zippier. But to me that comes at the expense of a smoother ride. And still, zippier is relative. I've made changes that made my bike feel faster, but not that made my bike actually feel fast. But maybe that's the old, fat man pushing the pedals. The biggest difference I felt apart from loading or unloading the front came from switching to Randonneur tires from my Marathon Plusses. I've run Marathon Plusses in 32 and 35, I think, and I've run 38 and 40 in the Randonneurs (one Hyper, one not), and I really feel like the flexibility and overall weight of the tire made more of a difference than the width. Obviously a narrower version of the same tire would weigh less, but I can't tell if the weight difference would be significant enough to be noticeable.

I've also thought about a faster commuting bike, but I do like the way the LHT feels, even unloaded, and I like that I when I stop to pick something up on the way home, the only question is "How do I carry it?" and never "Can the bike handle it?" I also have space constraints. I keep a more portable bike in the closet, but adding a 2nd, full-sized bike would cause crowding issues and marital issues, and replacing the LHT with something that carries less but might move a little faster only seems appealing until I remember my last tour or even my last grocery run. Lately my thoughts have been more towards a bike that will let me ride more places, rather than ride the same places faster. If there is a 2nd bike in my future, it's probably a fat tire bike that I don't imagine will be any faster than my LHT. And sometimes I wonder if a set of 29er wheels could make a fat bike into a suitable on-road tourer/commuter. Then maybe my LHT could be replaced, but I doubt I'd be any faster.

So I'm the owner of a disc trucker and did a 1500 mile tour over 20 days earlier this year. I weigh about 250lbs and had about 50lbs of gear on the bike via front and real panniers and a trunk bag. I really haven't done much loaded up riding at all since I got back from the tour but the bike is my regular commuter. Today I went to pick up my farm share veggies and being that we are getting late in the year there were tons of heavier root type veggies; butternut squash, potatoes, turnips, cabbage, etc. I probably had about 30 or so lbs loaded on the bike and for whatever reason, the bike just really seems to handle BETTER with a load on it, then unloaded. I can't quite put a finger on it, it just seems to be a smoother more floaty type of ride. Anyone else experience this? I'm kind of at the point where I want another bike for a commuter because other than the ability to put bigger tires on which is great for the potholed roads of nyc, the surly is just kind of sluggish especially since I ride so many recreational miles on a carbon race bike Sram Force all around. I don't think I can justify a 3rd bike, yet I don't know if I should sell off the trucker as inthe warm weather months i will potentially be loading it up and hauling some weight with it and it seems to do that so well.

Sluggish is due to your heavy wheels, which serve you well touring and loaded with a heavy load but slows you down on the get go due to more rotational weight that you need turning.
Once you get lighter wheels for your Surly, then the bike won't feel sluggish. Now the more upright position may induce more aero drag compared to your carbon race bike, but that's usually when you get up to 20MPH or higher.

Where do you carry your weight when it is loaded?

When I first got my LHT, I loved it from the first ride out. But then that was in comparison to a hybrid that was a size or two too small that I had been riding for a year prior. The bike just felt more "planted," and I really liked that. It also was rather less nimble, and while I expect my speed differences were not really that great, it felt like it went a little slower or at least handled changes in speed less well than my other bike, but that all contributed to the smooth, consistent ride that I enjoyed.

But that ride is still relative because I felt like the positive ride qualities were improved when I put some weight up front. Being a heavy guy who already tends to ride more upright, I put plenty of weight on the rear even when unloaded. I never noticed any benefit to adding more weight in the back, but I did notice that for most of my riding, apart from the hills, a heavy load in the rear had surprising little effect on how the bike rode. But moving the weight to the front makes the front end even more planted, and while I'd always rather be lighter than heavier when tackling a hill, the bike handled better with the front tire weighted down.

Over the summer I took a brief bike tour, and after a few days of loaded riding, I had the opportunity to completely shed my load and do 20 to 30 miles with nothing but a mostly-empty backpack. I was amazed that the steering felt so "squirrely." It's never a description I thought I'd apply to my LHT, but it's all relative, and without the weight up front, the bike definitely handled differently and, to my mind, worse. But once the touring is over and the commuting returns, there's never any weight up front, and I quickly adjust. The differences seem drastic when you transition between loaded and unloaded, but after riding unloaded for a while, I don't think about it.

But tires also make a difference, although I am not sure about how much difference width makes. I've used tires between 32 and 40, and I've been happier with the 40. But that's not to say that a thinner tire might not feel zippier. But to me that comes at the expense of a smoother ride. And still, zippier is relative. I've made changes that made my bike feel faster, but not that made my bike actually feel fast. But maybe that's the old, fat man pushing the pedals. The biggest difference I felt apart from loading or unloading the front came from switching to Randonneur tires from my Marathon Plusses. I've run Marathon Plusses in 32 and 35, I think, and I've run 38 and 40 in the Randonneurs (one Hyper, one not), and I really feel like the flexibility and overall weight of the tire made more of a difference than the width. Obviously a narrower version of the same tire would weigh less, but I can't tell if the weight difference would be significant enough to be noticeable.

I've also thought about a faster commuting bike, but I do like the way the LHT feels, even unloaded, and I like that I when I stop to pick something up on the way home, the only question is "How do I carry it?" and never "Can the bike handle it?" I also have space constraints. I keep a more portable bike in the closet, but adding a 2nd, full-sized bike would cause crowding issues and marital issues, and replacing the LHT with something that carries less but might move a little faster only seems appealing until I remember my last tour or even my last grocery run. Lately my thoughts have been more towards a bike that will let me ride more places, rather than ride the same places faster. If there is a 2nd bike in my future, it's probably a fat tire bike that I don't imagine will be any faster than my LHT. And sometimes I wonder if a set of 29er wheels could make a fat bike into a suitable on-road tourer/commuter. Then maybe my LHT could be replaced, but I doubt I'd be any faster.

It is okay to own several wheel sets if you have 1 bike only. One for club rides (light weight low spoke count with light tires), one for winter riding with studded tires and one for touring (high spoke count 36 to 40 and heavier fatter tires).

Totally agree. Somewhere along the line people were thinking that I was expecting my touring bike to be a racer when really the crux of my initial post was that the bike seems to just flat out ride better loaded up as opposed to unloaded. by ride better speed is certainly part of that, but just the general feel of the bike seems much better. I'm still surprised at just how much slower than a regular road bike it is however, it's noticeably in the range of 3-5 mph slower to the point that over the next couple of winter months I think I'm just gonna tear her down, clean her up and inspect everything, heck for all I know I could have some really sticky hubs robbing me of my energy! I also plan to to try a racier tire although the randonneur hypers are quite race like for a wide touring tire.

Poor aerodynamics can rob you significant speed compared to other factors. Which was the reason why I chose a CX bike for touring, because it serves as a good fast rando bike being about 1" higher cockpit compared to my carbon bike unloaded and yet compliant doing loaded touring as long as you don't put massive weight on it like you could do with a LHT trucker. I found that the Trucker puts me in such higher position that I might as well wear a sail.

Poor aerodynamics can rob you significant speed compared to other factors. Which was the reason why I chose a CX bike for touring, because it serves as a good fast rando bike being about 1" higher cockpit compared to my carbon bike unloaded and yet compliant doing loaded touring as long as you don't put massive weight on it like you could do with a LHT trucker. I found that the Trucker puts me in such higher position that I might as well wear a sail.

While a lot of LHT riders choose/adjust stem/bar for a more upright position isn't that just a matter of choice? Doesn't LHT have a fairly long top-tube (IIRC some actually complain about this) that allows one to use a more aero position? When I bought my '08 Randonee I switched to a longer less-rise stem 'cause I have long arms & like the flatter/aero position, I even put on aero-extension bar--not many tourists use one but I like it a lot: more for relaxing arms than for sheer aero advantage though it helps a lot in headwinds.

Poor aerodynamics can rob you significant speed compared to other factors. Which was the reason why I chose a CX bike for touring, because it serves as a good fast rando bike being about 1" higher cockpit compared to my carbon bike unloaded and yet compliant doing loaded touring as long as you don't put massive weight on it like you could do with a LHT trucker. I found that the Trucker puts me in such higher position that I might as well wear a sail.

I don't think that an unloaded expedition level tourer is terribly less aerodynamic than a CX bike, if at all. The rider is the brick in the airstream. The more upright a rider is regardless of the bicycle's purpose, the lower the speed where aerodynamic drag becomes a force to be dealt with.

Brad

While a lot of LHT riders choose/adjust stem/bar for a more upright position isn't that just a matter of choice? Doesn't LHT have a fairly long top-tube (IIRC some actually complain about this) that allows one to use a more aero position? When I bought my '08 Randonee I switched to a longer less-rise stem 'cause I have long arms & like the flatter/aero position, I even put on aero-extension bar--not many tourists use one but I like it a lot: more for relaxing arms than for sheer aero advantage though it helps a lot in headwinds.

I think touring cyclists use a less aggressive posture on their touring bikes, I know I do. That written, my posture on the T bike is still more aggresive than some I've seen with their roadies during my charity rides. I have used aero bars for years and I have a set put aside for the T bike. Maybe for the next century?

Brad

I don't think that an unloaded expedition level tourer is terribly less aerodynamic than a CX bike, if at all. The rider is the brick in the airstream. The more upright a rider is regardless of the bicycle's purpose, the lower the speed where aerodynamic drag becomes a force to be dealt with.

Brad

And that aerodynamic drag, for me, seems to become an issue only above 28km/h or thereabouts (~ 17mph) on any bike.

I don't think there are many touring cyclists here, other than the lightweight ones, who would cruise consistently at that speed.

I just purchased my first LHT after years of riding super light fast roadies, havent tried it loaded yet it, seems fine as a commuter/rainbike only problem is when I stand to climb my right knee hits the bar end shifter, great bike for what its built for ,not a racer though enjoy the LHT

While a lot of LHT riders choose/adjust stem/bar for a more upright position isn't that just a matter of choice? Doesn't LHT have a fairly long top-tube (IIRC some actually complain about this) that allows one to use a more aero position? When I bought my '08 Randonee I switched to a longer less-rise stem 'cause I have long arms & like the flatter/aero position, I even put on aero-extension bar--not many tourists use one but I like it a lot: more for relaxing arms than for sheer aero advantage though it helps a lot in headwinds.

Jan Heine did research on bicycle aerodynamics and here is what he found. Simply raising your stem by 20mm (3/4") raises the drag by 5%. Even the best aero wheels you can buy on the market on average only lowers the drag by 3%! You do the math. The LHT is designed for a more upright riding position irregardless of its geometry because it is designed as a touring bike. It has a longer chainstay which makes it less agile compared to a road or triathlon bike which has much shorter chainstays. A CX bike has a shorter chainstay than a LHT does, so it too feels more agile. A CX bike cockpit is similar to a road bike being only about 1" higher rise if both bikes are fitted exactly to the same rider. A touring bike equipped with aerobars will still be higher than a road or triathlon or even a CX bike designed for speed because of its geometry design, but I think the majority of cycle tourists are riding without aerobars and the head is not bent backwards all that much.

A simple test. Tilt your chin up so your eyes look at the ceiling and see if you can make the back of your head "touch" your back. The closer the better. If you can do that, then your road bike position will be very low. If you can not, then your road bar position will be higher irregardless if you have aerobars or not and there will be slightlly higher drag.