Touring - Questions about rolling resistance and weight

I'm in the market for tires on my LHT right now, and I know there's another thread right now about tires, but my question is a bit different.

The tires I have now are 700x38 WTB pathways. My LHT serves as my commuter, and many times after about 20 city miles I feel like I'm having to lug these tires around, as opposed to vice versa. They're great on gravel, but most of my riding and touring will be on pavement. Keep in mind that I have a good amount of saddle to bar drop on my bike, and a Brooks pro. My question is, what's the ideal size for fast touring tire, if that's not an oxymoron. I'm looking at 32c vittoria randonneurs, but they almost seem to small. Something like a gatorskin has too little tread. Would a 32c schwable marathon something or other be good? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks!

These:

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.php?PART_NUM_SUB='1761-28'

I run a 32 Schwalbe Marathon on the front and a 35 on the back. My hands wouldn't get as numb with a 35 on the front but I like the extra speed. The 32is fine on hard packed gravel but not in loose.

For pavement and loaded weights up to 350 lbs, 25c. As little tread as possible. If you'll be doing a little gravel, but not much, 28c. Try Conti 4 Seasons. You will be amazed at the difference.

Paselas are light , but the trade off is tread life, thin so part of the Light weight.
and puncture resistance .. the 33mm wide Jack Brown, via Riv Bike, is a Kevlar bead ,
Panasonic makes both.

I ride 35c Vittoria Randonneurs on my touring/town bike. They are comfortable, roll great and seem to last. I think the 32's will roll a bit better and be great all round tires. I've never had a flat on them either. I think mine are the Hypers, but I can't remember. Now that my weight is way down, when it's time to change them, I will probably go with the 32's.

Don't worry about tread, at all. The Pathways

Don't worry about tread, at all.
Agreed. I didn't understand the OP's comment about some tires having too little tread if the riding will be on pavement. I can see the advantage when riding in mud or loose sand, but haven't noticed any issues with slicks on pavement, gravel, or hard packed dirt.

my question to you is just how bad are the roads where you commute and how much are you carrying when you commute and how much do you weigh. I'm 250lbs and commute on 40c randonneur hypers because the nyc streets are ridiculously potholed and I"m only usually commuting a few miles at a time. IF I'm doing longer rides most of the time I'm on my racing bike though I have done 20 mile rides on the commuter with no major issues.

Agreed. I didn't understand the OP's comment about some tires having too little tread if the riding will be on pavement. I can see the advantage when riding in mud or loose sand, but haven't noticed any issues with slicks on pavement, gravel, or hard packed dirt.The tires he's riding now aren't slicks. I think that is what he meant. They ahve a significant tread too them, kinda like a CX tire which means he's really gonna have poor rolling resistance on smooth pavement

The main issue I'm running into is the fact the m tires are 38s with a tread. I'm just trying to find a sensible smaller tire. So i'm going to check out the vittoria randonneur, the offerings from panaracer, and schwable, although I can't make sense of all the different types of marathons. Thanks!

although I can't make sense of all the different types of marathonsWelcome to the club :beer:. There are currently 9 different Marathon types available apparently. For a complete list, see Schwalbe's home page: http://www.schwalbe.de/gbl/en/produkte/tour_city/produkt/?ID_Einsatzbereich=9&showAllProducts=true

--J

These:

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.php?PART_NUM_SUB='1761-28' (http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.php?PART_NUM_SUB=%271761-28%27)

+1

Agreed. I didn't understand the OP's comment about some tires having too little tread if the riding will be on pavement. I can see the advantage when riding in mud or loose sand, but haven't noticed any issues with slicks on pavement, gravel, or hard packed dirt.

Yeah, I don't see tread as a plus at all for road riding unless you will be on mud or sand. It may be counter-intuitive, but tread is actually more likely to have a negative impact even on wet pavement.

I'd run gatorskins for the use he describes. 32mm ones are probably the norm for that use, but I personally would probably go narrower. That is after I wore out what came with the bike.

My tour (road) and everyday ride tire is Panaracer T-Serv Protex
http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/panaracer-t-serv-protex

on a trek 520. very light folder that seems strong enough.

28 mm BTW

Now I'm looking at the marathon and the marathon mondial. The marathon supreme's tread looks too wimpy and the marathon plus seems too slow. I think I've narrowed things down a bit. I need a tire, either 32 or 35 for loaded touring, that's fast on pavement and works alright on light gravel or hard pack. The marathons i'm looking at seem to satisfy those. The vittoria randdoneur is too slim for me i think. Does anybody know about continental's offerings? Tour Ride looks good also. So indecisive!

The marathon supreme's tread looks too wimpy and the marathon plus seems too slow
I suspect that you are way too hung up on tread and that a relatively smooth tire would serve your needs best.

I suspect that you are way too hung up on tread and that a relatively smooth tire would serve your needs best.
Thanks for the advise. I think I just need to ride some other tires. Off road riding is relatively new to me, and I with smooth touring tires, I just think about what it's like to hit a sand patch on 23c road tires. I suppose the width has a lot to do with off road stability. I'll keep looking.

Why would you hit a sand patch during your commute?

Use a pair of slick 28c's for your commute and on-road riding (including tours), and something wider with some tread for trails, bad weather, off-road use.

Fat tires can skip the tread and still give you decent traction on anything but full-on sand or mud. And fat is a relative term.

I'd suggest getting a pair of Paselas in 35 width, and try them for a while. It's a decent tire and won't break the bank. Just ride like you normally do, and see if they're better on pavement and still acceptable in slop. If they're good, move down a size to 32s, and repeat. At some point, you'll start thinking, "This one is too skinny," and you can then lock in on the next fatter size.

For pavement and loaded weights up to 350 lbs, 25c. As little tread as possible. If you'll be doing a little gravel, but not much, 28c. Try Conti 4 Seasons. You will be amazed at the difference.

For pavement a slick tire is best. I use 25c ultra gatorskins. If you go larger you can runs a lower psi. It will be slower, but you'll get more cushioning,but if you are on regular roads I find 25c to be plenty comfortable.

Vintage Bike Quarterly goes on and on about rolling resistance and wider Vs Narrow.

Jan, the Publisher, will sell you a back issue or 2 where they do controlled tests.

I went from Marathon plusses (35?) to a Vittoria Randonneur Pro (35?) in the front and Vittoria Randonneur Hyper (38) in the back. Both have tread, but not much. I always lean towards fatter tires, and these have been great. Lighter and, more important, I think, more supple than the Marathon Plusses I replaced. While I do prefer a fatter tire, I also like a little pressure when I'm carrying a load. A Randonneur Pro seemed a little too soft in rear with max pressure and a touring load, so I switched to hyper: fatter, lighter (I think), and higher pressure.

It's possible a thinner tire will also improve your rolling resistance, but I've never been inclined to try. I recommend little or no tread and a supple tire.

After over a year now on the Vittoria Randonneur Hyper 32's, I must say I'm impressed. A full 32mm width at less than 400 grams and excellent puncture resistance. These things are quite compliant for a nice ride and they roll very quickly. Can't comment on durability as that particular bike has less than 2000 miles on it but so far so good. I like the reflective sidewall and won't hesitate to buy another set when these eventually wear out.

after drinking a healthy amount of the Bicycle Quarterly water, I think I've decided on the pasela tourgards. I've read that they're a good mix of suppleness and toughness. On a touring/commuting bike, is there any advantage between wire/folding bead? Aside from weight...

FB are lighter and easier to pack spare(s) than steel, but usually much more expensive. In the case of Pasela TG, 50% more $.

The plain Pasela has lower rolling resistance than the TG version with the added aramid belt. It takes more energy to deform this additional layer.

after drinking a healthy amount of the Bicycle Quarterly water, I think I've decided on the pasela tourgards. I've read that they're a good mix of suppleness and toughness. On a touring/commuting bike, is there any advantage between wire/folding bead? Aside from weight...

On a different brand of tires I was quite surprised after I bought the ones with wire bead to find that they used a different fabric in the casing with higher rolling resistance than they used in their folding tires.

So, if you are concerned about rolling resistance, compare the threads per inch data for both tires to make sure you know what you are getting.

I find it easier to mount the tires with a wire bead on the rim, so a tire that I know that I will never carry I prefer the wired ones.

On a different..

Good point, mfgs do not fully disclose details of tire construction within the brief confines of ad copy. TPI is one of the specs they tend to intentionally misrepresent, so it may not mean much as a decision criteria.

I usually get the SB cause I'm frugal, but do occasionally spring for the FB if good price.

Why would you hit a sand patch during your commute?

Use a pair of slick 28c's for your commute and on-road riding (including tours), and something wider with some tread for trails, bad weather, off-road use.

I guess you don't ride in a cold climate climate area during the spring, specifically during the seemingly endless time period between the end of snowfall and the first time the municipality sweeps the streets. ;) Then there are the times when a heavy rain fall washes soil into the street.

Don't worry about tread, at all.


Agreed. I didn't understand the OP's comment about some tires having too little tread if the riding will be on pavement. I can see the advantage when riding in mud or loose sand, but haven't noticed any issues with slicks on pavement, gravel, or hard packed dirt.


I suspect that you are way too hung up on tread and that a relatively smooth tire would serve your needs best.


After over a year now on the Vittoria Randonneur Hyper 32's, I must say I'm impressed. A full 32mm width at less than 400 grams and excellent puncture resistance. These things are quite compliant for a nice ride and they roll very quickly. Can't comment on durability as that particular bike has less than 2000 miles on it but so far so good. I like the reflective sidewall and won't hesitate to buy another set when these eventually wear out.


Fat tires can skip the tread and still give you decent traction on anything but full-on sand or mud. And fat is a relative term.

+1

The Vittoria Voyager Hyper (formerly the Randonneur Hyper) can provide ample traction on almost any dry surface. I'll use a 700x40 at moderate psi to get great performance on-road and off. Pavement, gravel, stable sandy soil, dirt, grass and all combinations are secure and fun to ride. The tire is also very fast rolling with good flat protection. It feels like an oversized racing tire with a supple, surface-hugging ride. The tire is very well liked, see: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/vittoria-randonneur-hyper-folding-city-tyre/

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/IMG_09141.jpg

On a touring/commuting bike, is there any advantage between wire/folding bead? Aside from weight...

advantage is for 3rd tire packed in your panniers, but I hauled a spare tire on tour
by making it drape over the rear panniers, then put rack top part of the load on top.

advantage is for 3rd tire packed in your panniers, but I hauled a spare tire on tour
by making it drape over the rear panniers, then put rack top part of the load on top.

With respect, not really. You can easily fold a tire with a wire bead in order to make it more compact for carry within your pannier.

http://home.comcast.net/~mandmlj/tirefolding/index.html

Count me as another satisfied user of Vittoria Rando Hypers. Mine are 700x32s and are as wide as I need for riding on roads and trails. These tires roll incredibly nice, way better than Panaracer Paselas, and they are very light for a wide tire. They will also pack easy if you need a spare, due to folding beads. They have reflective sidewalls, a nice feature if you ever ride in low light conditions. The price is way lower than Schwalbes, and they are much lighter.

The only downside to the Hypers is the lack of tread, which is not an issue if you are riding on roads and decent trails. It would only be a problem on muddy roads or trails.

I got the Hypers after reading tons of positive reviews. It literally was hard finding someone who didn't like them.

Would a 32c schwable marathon something or other be good? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks!

I use 700x28 Schwalbe Marathon (greens) for winter commuting around rainy Portland, Oregon. For such heavy tires they are fast enough, but the ride is so very harsh I would never use them for touring. The size and heft for touring tires even on relatively smooth pavement (please see the thread on chip and seal roads) depends on your all up touring weight and what level of comfort you require. I've done a lot of paved road touring using 28f/32r Panaracer Ribmo tires. To my personal experience they are a far superior to the Panaracer Pasela. Longer life, much more puncher resistance, great cornering ability, low rolling resistance and a comfortable ride at moderate price.

For the past few years I find myself turning off the paved highways onto gravel and dirt forest service roads, often at the whim of the moment. To accommodate this proclivity I've taken to touring on Schwalbe Duremes 35f/40r. They are lighter, faster than the Marathons, and more comfortable but considerable slower than the Ribmos. I've got approximately 8,000 k on them and not one flat and lots of tread left. They are a top of the line tire and price accordingly.

[QUOTE=robow;14977597]You can easily fold a tire with a wire bead in order to make it more compact for carry within your pannier./QUOTE]

With respect, not really all that compact. I carry two folding 40mm dirt tires in the bottom of a pannier. There just isn't enough extra volume to put even one wire bead tire in. The one time I took wire bead dirt tires, I wound up strapping them triple coiled to the outsides of my panniers. Of course my road tires are folding and also live at the pannier bottom when the knobbies go on.