Bicycle Mechanics - expensive day for a client at the LBS

Today was interesting.

client brought in his hydro formed Aluminum 3T/carbon stay bike, his deraileur ear was all twisted.
"it was a Alan Matrix cross" Frame weight: 1550 grams / 3.42 lbs
http://www.repartocorse.com/alan-matrix-cross.htm
http://www.nexternal.com/reparto/images/amatrix_fr.jpg

We found a replacement ear when we noticed a crack at the bottle boss, the other side had a crack in the seam running 150mm at least.

Frame got replaced
new seatpost
seatpost clamp
deraileur clamp
seat was ripped-replace
bar tape
new jagwire cables inner and outer
headset was rusty-replaced
11 speed chain-twisted from the accident-replaced
campy rear deraileur-toast-replaced
front small chainwheel(double)-worn-replaced
rear cassette-we see if it is ok...the bill is running close to 2k
client is coming in the morning...I want to see his face
merry xmas!

How much is the bike worth used anyway? Isn't there a point where you just consider the bike totaled and recommend a new bike and part out the old parts? Seems silly to put so much money into the bike if it isn't worth the 2k that he will be putting into it after all repairs. And how the heck does someone wear out the front chainring? I have seen people wear out the middle rings but never the small ring.

So hang on, what wasn't broken?

And how the heck does someone wear out the front chainring? I have seen people wear out the middle rings but never the small ring.
+1 on whether replacing the enttire bike would have been more cost effective but the 11-speed mention does imply a very expensive bike to begin with. Also, I assume the "small chainring" is the inner of a double, not the granny of a triple. Campy doesn't make any 11-speed triple cranks and many riders use the smaller ring a great deal. Nevertheless, this customer seems very hard on equipment.

+1 on whether replacing the enttire bike would have been more cost effective but the 11-speed mention does imply a very expensive bike to begin with. Also, I assume the "small chainring" is the inner of a double, not the granny of a triple. Campy doesn't make any 11-speed triple cranks and many riders use the smaller ring a great deal. Nevertheless, this customer seems very hard on equipment.

Ahhh! That makes sense. I was thinking the small chainring on a triple, the small of a double didn't even pop into my head. Doh..

And how the heck does someone wear out the front chainring? I have seen people wear out the middle rings but never the small ring.

I've seen MTBs with worn out granny rings....

Today was interesting.

client brought in his hydro formed Aluminum 3T/carbon stay bike, his deraileur ear was all twisted.

We found a replacement ear when we noticed a crack at the bottle boss, the other side had a crack in the seam running 150mm at least.

Frame got replaced
new seatpost
seatpost clamp
deraileur clamp
seat was ripped-replace
bar tape
new jagwire cables inner and outer
headset was rusty-replaced
11 speed chain-twisted from the accident-replaced
campy rear deraileur-toast-replaced
front small chainwheel-worn-replaced
rear cassette-we see if it is ok...the bill is running over 2k
client is coming in the morning...I want to see his face
merry xmas!

You do 2K worth of work without asking for approval? Tell us the name of your shop, so we can be sure to never take a bike there.

+1, You should have given him a running estimate, thru telephone conversations,
so no surprises, when they come to get it.

or the customer will leave it there, another 'underwater' deal. and a loss for the Shop.


but maybe having bought a 10K bike then crashing it, they are going to be realistic.

Well the bike is an ALAN, about 4 years ago he picked out a frameset and had us build it with Campagnolo group.
He uses his bike well every year,
the shop owner knows who the serious clients are-they are the ones who wear out the entire drivetrain every year, racking up 20,000kms on a summer,
this client has a few of our top end bikes, the other bike is a frame built to his measurement.
he had an accident-it happens.
We got him back on the road in less then 24hrs.
We had a replacement frame in stock, and all the top end parts in stock.

Most of us on the forum
-know how to wrench ourselves
-know how to save money

Our good clients bring in the wrecked bike and are quite happy that we are capable to rebuild it ASAP.
I dot know many people who buy new expensive exotic cars and fix em themselves.

So are you implying if your frame is shot you would just replace the bike? and chuck the carbon wheelset, and the entire campy group?!

So are you implying if your frame is shot you would just replace the bike? and chuck the carbon wheelset, and the entire campy group?!

Well of course I would replace the bike if the repaired bike was only worth 1500 but needed 2k worth of work. I don't know much about higher end bikes, just how much realistically will the repaired bike be worth on the secondary (used) market? That is the key, if its worth less than the repair cost, of course you should replace the bike and then you have a buttload of useful spare parts (entire campy group, brifters, fork, stem, handlebars, complete wheel set, brakes, pedals, crankset, etc etc etc).

Why would anyone in their right might "chuck" a complete bike's worth of high end spare parts? Its not like a bike is an exotic car where it needs dealer only repairs frequently (timing chain/belt replacement on Ferraris after something like 10k of miles were normal at one time). All those spare parts have good value in themselves.

What you did apparently was financially reasonable and your customer was aware of the potential cost so all is well. I believe what brought out the questions and comments here was that your OP implied the customer was is for a real shock when he got the bill and we were questioning the ethics of that approach.

I think the shop owner knows the client well enough to make the decision to just rebuild it.

what is a custom bike other then a collection of parts?
- you cant hurt the value replacing the damaged parts,
There was no build sheet in the first place to say what was original.

I looked it up- the original frameset was over 1400€ with a carbon fork-the fork was just fine.

They didn't build it with a replaceable derailleur hanger to bend first?
or was it just there and painted to match?

Back in the day the screwed and glued AlAns could be rebuilt , if you could afford the Shipping to Italy and back.
the trans Atlantic air cargo rate was a Killer .

shop owner handed me a replacement hanger- when we put the bike on the shop stand he happened to notice the small crack on the drive side from the top bottle boss, then we saw the 150mm crack down the other side.

notice the frame has embossed shapes from the light blue to the dark blue- this is the line where the frame failed,
I clearly believe the embossed shape was a foolish design making a place for the tubes to flex.
we looked it over before taking it apart, no roadrash on the levers or pedals,
something must have bent the deraileur which caused a lot of stress on the frame.
http://www.nexternal.com/reparto/images/amatrix_fr.jpg

crashing in the mud and snow might bend things..
and not leave marks
shifting the RD into a spinning wheel would do the rest.


wasn't one of Sherlock Holmes, cases, where the weapon was an Icicle as the assassin's choice.

That's a pretty unimpressive frame.

Since there were cracks in the frame, shouldnt the mfg replace the bike under warrenty???

RESPECT for the customer who uses his tool properly. I hope he rides the **** out of that bike again.

report-
client came in this morning.
He is a stressed business man, and this caused a bit of stress but the crack in the frame is nothing to argue about.
he gave the newly assembled bike and test drive and the chain was hopping-
We told him we had to put in a new chain, and said we wanted to see if the old cassette was salvage-able.
Cliend said he has another cassette at home and he will be back in the afternoon,
the replacement came and it was no better-
He came back third time with riding gear, with a good amount of mud on it.
He had to buy a replacement campy 11 cassette and it really did not bother him too much.
It seems he is so busy with work that he really loves the little time he has riding his bikes.
(his replacement frame is stronger then the alan beercan)

The Original AlAns went with thicker wall tubing, to keep the OD used in Steel frames.
the C'dale change was to bigger OD tube, thinner tube wall , hydroformed shapes are a further step
along the stiffer by bigger diameter, but lighter by wall thickness reduction, thru localized shaping.

Advantage to the AlAns was being largely anodized aluminum, so spare pit bike washing
could be dunking it in the creek, or hosing down liberally, to clean the Mud off.

My take away from this thread is that the OP might want to think again when he posts about the shop's business with out a full discription to the backround of those he mentions. I have done much the same, most wrenches have. Knowing the customer, we make decissions that they will be charged for. but this faith in our value judgements requires a foundation. the Op's fault was not establishing this base in our forum. Andy

If a "serious cyclist" has a four year old, mixed-material frame (yuck), the frame cracks, and that "serious cyclist" is okay with a bike shop replacing the frame and building the replacement up at a cost of approx. $2000 without even discussing options beforehand, then I guess my definition of a "serious cyclist" is different than some.

This sounds more like a "busy businessman with more money than sense" kind of cyclist to me.

I still am curious, how much is the finished bike now worth? Is it a 2500 dollar bike used? is it a 1000 dollar bike used? I have no idea.

bobtech- Good point. You focused on one of the value judgements that service writers/mechanics deal with daily. I use a few ways of anylizing the value of repairing a bike. The cost of the repair VS the new replacement cost, VS the used resale value (usually dissmissed by the customer), the cost to the customers lifestyle (not a black and white comparison but well known to the customer), the possibility of future needs/repaires, the safety of the possible choices.

I have found that having this discussion with the customer goes A LONG WAY TOWARD having a win/win result. Almost everybody wants to know that the service shop understands their needs and abilities (as in budget now VS later). Most every time that we have "issues" with customers and the repaires we've done are because this unerstanding was not explored well enough before the repaires were done.

Having had this discussion with the same customer many times and having their feed back when they pick up the bike or return later (with a problem or for other service) I will say that I can anticipate what many of my customers want. Still i feel the need to cover the range of possibilities best i can at the time of drop off. Andy.

I looked at the alan frame again today, there are seams or ridges where the two colors change,its part of the forming, it cracked exactly on the seam.

I did not hear the exact bill, but over 1500 but under 2000.

again, the bike was built up from selecting parts, so how do you write off a colection of good parts?

the shop owner said the frame will be thrown out after the bill is paid.
I might get a chance to get a few pictures of it,

I still am curious, how much is the finished bike now worth? Is it a 2500 dollar bike used? is it a 1000 dollar bike used? I have no idea.

1000 bucks dont buy much carbon and campagnolo now adays....

My take away from this thread is that the OP might want to think again when he posts about the shop's business with out a full discription to the backround of those he mentions. I have done much the same, most wrenches have. Knowing the customer, we make decissions that they will be charged for. but this faith in our value judgements requires a foundation. the Op's fault was not establishing this base in our forum. Andy

No, there was the comment "I want to see his face", that annoyed me. I used to work on fancy cars, which often had repair bills in the $10,000 range. There was no way you'd ever do a repair where the owner wasn't prepared for the total, even if you knew he'd pay it. Dropping your car off for a brake job, and discovering that the shop has replaced the front end, and the bill is $5,000 not $500, doesn't build trust with the customer. Calling them and saying "we started work, and we discovered this other problem..." does. Repeat as necessary, depending on what you continue to find.

Particularly in this case, where the frame has been changed, you missed the opportunity to sell him something that matches what he wants now, and not just a duplicate of what he had. I know lots of people who are happy enough with their bike they keep it, but if it broke, they'd want something else.

No, there was the comment "I want to see his face", that annoyed me.

+1. The whole thing seems wacky.

So hang on, what wasn't broken?

And - if that much of the rest of the bike was pretty beat up - or well used if you prefer - what was the condition of the remaining parts?

I'm guessing that according to what was posted, you rescued the four year old
fork
stem
handlebars
brakes
bottom bracket
crankset (less one chainring)
pedals
11speed campy brifters
wheelset
campy front derailleur

Just thinking that if it was me and I had multiple bikes, I would have probably given you the time to do another custom build and would have liked to have had some say in the choice of components - particularly the frame and seat.

bobtech- Good point. You focused on one of the value judgements that service writers/mechanics deal with daily. I use a few ways of anylizing the value of repairing a bike. The cost of the repair VS the new replacement cost, VS the used resale value (usually dissmissed by the customer), the cost to the customers lifestyle (not a black and white comparison but well known to the customer), the possibility of future needs/repaires, the safety of the possible choices.

I have found that having this discussion with the customer goes A LONG WAY TOWARD having a win/win result. Almost everybody wants to know that the service shop understands their needs and abilities (as in budget now VS later). Most every time that we have "issues" with customers and the repaires we've done are because this unerstanding was not explored well enough before the repaires were done. .

You understand then what I'm trying to get across. I come from a automotive repair shop world from when I used to do professional car repairs back in the '90s. So I became very very aware of the whole "don't put more money into your car than its worth" mantra. I also had several auto body friends and learned a bit about how the insurance world works and how a car that has been damaged and which will need 80 percent or more of its value to repair is then deemed totaled and written off.

I then look at the bike discussed by the OP and I just feel like the customer is getting ripped off. Now I will grant you that there are classic collectible bikes that will get repaired even though their repairs far exceed the intrinsic value of the bicycle but there is a huge difference between a classic from the 60s and a commodity bike from the 2000's even if the bike from the 2000's is a high end bike.

I also don't get the dismissive attitude towards the leftover parts if the damaged bike is parted out since it was heavily damaged, you don't dispose of the salvageable leftover parts, you either resell them, keep them for spares, use the value for trade-in credit, or maybe use them to build up another frame.

So in the end, I would give a full estimate of what the bike would cost to repair and then compare it to the replacement cost of an equivalent bike and if the repair estimate exceeds 80 percent or more of the replacement cost, then I would recommend to buy a different bike and apply the trade-in credit for the customer's remaining reusable parts.

That is why I keep wondering what the repaired bike is now worth after the repairs have been done. I know that well-to-do business people have a tendency to just throw their money around but one shouldn't really take advantage of their ignorance.

I run into this issue very frequently nowadays with computer repairs. People have laptops that they bought for 299 at Walmart and a year or two later want me to repair like putting a new screen on or replacing the hard drive. Quite often, I just suggest that they dump the laptop and pay me to pull the hard drive and copy their data to a new laptop and then they will be that much father ahead.

dscheidt- I try to not comment too much on posters' state of mind. I feel that's a loosing game and leads to far too much negitivity. The interweb has too much of that already.

bobotech- I think we're in agreement on how to work with our customers. Our place is to give the facts and costs, some idea what others might do in the same situation and what we feel is worth while. It's our customers' place to then decide and be willing to pay the bill. They own the old stuff but often leave it for us to "dispose of" in the manor we deem fit. Andy.

With alan doesnt surprise me that much to read all those problems.

he had an accident-it happens.
If it's not a secret, could you tell me what happened? I am researching bicycle accidents with seasoned/experienced riders. I want to find out the various scenarios where the rider could not avoid the incident.