Alright I am posting this story as told by a non cycling friend...
Before I start the following story does not reflect on the view points of the poster or the forum in general.
It was about 5 pm and I was traveling down the local street. A guy on a bike was riding down the middle of the one way street. He was on this red bike with skinny tires like yours (refering to myself, my58vw). He was fat, atleast 350 pounds and was only riding I think 10 MPH. I got behind him and after 500 feet I taped the horn. The rider waved at me and continued riding in the middle.
At the stop sign I stoped and he ran the sign. I think he thought he was in a race or something because he ran 5 signs before that one. I got up behind him and reved up my car and he still did not move. He finally got the hint and moved over 3 feet and when I went to pass he just pulled out in front again. The road had a nice bike lane and he did not want to use it. ((my58vw), I ride this route all the time and there is no reason that the bike lane should not be used, plus the road is wide and straight).
At one stop sign he rode through and acted like he was going to let me go and did not. It was not until the bike with the clown outfit (bike uniform) saw a cop he let me go.
End story.
This story illustrates the other side of the coin with cars. Do you think the driver was right in the story?
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
well if I was only riding 10mph and I was holding up traffic I would move over to the right and allow the cars to pass.
Generally at stop signs I slow down and if it's someone elses turn to go before me I stop, but if there is nobody there then I just slow down and then go again.
edit: heh, I meant move over to the right and let him pass, not move over to the left lol :p
bluejack
It was probably Serge.
Joke!
So, the presence of the bike lane is immaterial. The point is, the man did not let the vehicle pass which is illegal in most states, and rude everywhere. The rider's weight is not relevant. The running of the stop signs, doesn't seem particularly relevant to the driver's complaint, which is that the bike was slowing him down: if anything running the stop signs helps speed the car up a little, since having to stop behind a stopped bike would be worse than merely stopping for the intersection. But we don't imagine that's why the cyclist was running the stop signs.
Some questions: why didn't the vehicle just pull around him? Was it that busy a street? Somehow it doesn't sound like it. It doesn't take long to zip past a cyclist going 10 mph.
Could the driver have done anything to create an antagonism on the part of the rider? Although I don't recommend it, I know people who will do this to cars if they feel the driver deserves it for some reason or another.
Conclusion: probably just a bad cyclist. In case there was any doubt, there are bad cyclists out there: arrogant, obnoxious, and annoying. In all probability, just about the same percentage of arrogant, obnoxious, and annoying drivers. We're all human. Owning a bicycle does not confer sainthood.
Recommendation: I don't recommend revving the engine. I do recommend using the horn: 1st time tap the horn lightly from a reasonable distance. 2nd time give him a good double-honk from a reasonable distance & maybe flash lights. 3rd time, lean on the horn as close as possible such that you can still stop if you scare him off his bike. I don't recommend running him over. If he still doesn't pull over, I suppose you could just lean on the horn until he does. He's bound to get sick of you at some point.
my58vw
The cyclist was on a road that is divided,, not acessable from ewither side, enough rooms for a cyclist and a car if the cyclist is in the bike lane, not enough otherwise.
He did as you perscribed, honked then reved. It is cyclists like this that give us a bad name.
Now if I was riding in the lane I would expect a short honk then I get the hint and move over...
Rowan
The driver probably has legitimate gripes; the bike rider wasn't engaging in what I would consider appropriate riding behaviour.
But (there is always a but), several things. We all tend to embellish stories to make them more plausible or have more impact. The ones that give a clue here are rider weight and speed, and dress.
Which leads me to ask whether, on this particular journey, the driver was paying as much attention to the behaviour of fellow drivers running stop signs, talking on mobiles, cutting in, crossing lines, exceeding the speed limit, driving with bald tyres, driving while doing something else?
Are we dealing with the frustrations of a single driver over the behaviour of a single bike rider, while the rest of the motorists are doing crazy things? It is amazing how we become blind to illegality when our peers consistently and regularly engage in it. In this case, the bike rider was not a peer.
Just some thoughts, observations and questions (not an attack on the poster or the driver who provided the story).
Allister
Riding a bike doesn't make one a saint, or even a perfect road user. Does this driver think that it does? Or does he now think that all cyclists are like this? I'm not sure which is the more irrational.
Bottom line: cyclists, just like regular people everywhere, including drivers, can be jerks too. Such is life.
iowarose
The details in the description of the cyclist are all negative (fat, badly dressed, slow, running stop signs) and are a reflection, I think, of the driver's irritation towards this man. It doesn't mean that they weren't accurate. The cyclist should have shared the road if there was room.
Why do drivers assume cyclists are all in a secret society such that we can divine why all other cyclists act the way they do?
Daily Commute
. . . Why do drivers assume cyclists are all in a secret society such that we can divine why all other cyclists act the way they do?
Nice point.
I agree that the cyclist should have moved over as far as reasonably possible to let the single car by. But I don't know what the conditions on the right were. Consider the following:
Bike lanes are frequently unridable. I do not blame any cyclist for not using them. On most roads, the area immediately to the right of the part that cars use (i.e., where bike lanes are) gets debris in it. This means that cyclists have to ride in the traffic lane. The result of striping many bike lanes is to turn a strip of useful road space into useless road space. Perhaps the motorist could help lobby to remove the stripe.
The first 3-5 feet of many roadways is frequently unrideable.
There may be obstructions from time to time on the right side. There's a stip of road on my way home that, every 100-300 feet has potholes or bad pothole patches sticking six to eight feet from the side of the road. I generally will not weave in and out (but if I noticed ONLY one car behind me, I might).
In cold weather, the part of the road cars don't use stays wet and/or icy longer than the part that cars use.
How long was the motorist delayed? One, two minutes total? He was almost certainly delayed for less time than it took in to him to write his message to you.
What was the speed limit on the road? There are 25 mph roads that residents here complain about too many people speeding through. Many of them should be happy that traffic was slowed to 10 mph (I wish it were slowed to that speed on my street)
I'm not saying the cyclist was right, but we don't have his side of the story. I'm just trying to throw in some possibilities. Basically, I will try to accomodate one or two cars behind me. If the situation was exactly as your motorist described, I would have tried to let him pass. But in heavy traffic, cars just have to wait their turn.
The motorist also gives a cogent argument against bike lanes. You should let him know that many cyclists would prefer that the city not stipe lanes on roads like you described. Motorists think cyclists "owe" something in return for building bike facilities. I think the opposite is usually true.
I agree with Rowan and Allister, very good points. May I point out that 10 mph is crawling and may be an exaggeration? If the speed limit on that narrow road was 20 or 15, and the rider felt or knew he was making close to 15 , then I can see the him excusing himself. Which doesn't mean he wasn't being a jerk at the stop signs. Again rowan and allister make good points. Something struck me reading this, it seems that drivers in this situation feel they have done us all a favor by not showing us their upper hand: by not running us over. They have a power over us human powered two wheeled people, we all feel it. Would the dialogue be different if the driver was in a vehicle of equal weight and power output? I am not really sure if I can put down what I am thinking, but because this car can go faster, does it mean it always should? I definitely think the rider deserved the driver's wrath in the situation described.
He is just a fella on a bike, he does not represent the whole of others on bikes. This is an interesting topic to discuss, with all the retaliation threads running now, we all, as the lighter weight vehicles, should consider how our actions factor on other riders.
genec
Why do drivers assume cyclists are all in a secret society...
We're not? :D
Mars
It seems to me that the most telling thing about this cyclist's behavior is how it changed when he thought the heat was watching him. If he thought he was riding appropriately, why did he let the motorist by when the cops showed up?
Daily Commute
It seems to me that the most telling thing about this cyclist's behavior is how it changed when he thought the heat was watching him. If he thought he was riding appropriately, why did he let the motorist by when the cops showed up?
Because cops can punish cyclists for reasonable behavior. A steel-cager cop's view of "as far right as practicable" can be very unrealistic.
Again, my guess is that the cyclist was riding rudely, but since the cyclists isn't here to defend himself, I'm playing devil's (cyclist's?) advocate.
galen_52657
There are jackasses everywhere...in cars...on bikes...tapping on computer keyboards.....
The rider in question was not riding his bike as I suspect most who read this forum would. I ride a lot and hence, I see lots of jackasses on bikes. The other day I was with my bud and we catch up to two other riders out on a country road. These two are riding two abreast and chatting it up. A car would come up behind them. Would one rider slide in behind the other? No! They never even looked back! Just kept on chatting... This happened about with about 4-5 cars/pickups trying to pass them. When we caught them I admonished them for not singling up to let the cars pass. One guy says...'well we are just out for a Sunday ride'... and I said 'oh...that makes it OK to piss off as many motorists as possible so they will take it out on me?' Thing was, there was so little traffic, the two boobs could have riden two abreast most of the time anyway and would have only had to single up now and then if they were paying attention to oncomming cars...
Dumb
snowy
All I have to say is if some car is honking at me then I'm moving outta the way. In the end, a car will always win!!!!
noisebeam
I've been (illegally) passed by a car when I was traveling at 17mph in a posted and active 15mph school zone. I also would have prefered to be going 20mph, but didn't want to break the limit too much.
I've had cars come up behind me, rev their engine and then gun it to pass me at probably 35mph when I was traveling at 26mph in a 25mph.
10mph seem very slow for someone who is asserting their rights to the road. If I was on a ride at such a slow pace I'd be very willing to pull over and let driver pass.
However what was the speed limit and how fast was the cyclist really going in this situation?
Al
my58vw
The speedlimit is 45 MPH on the road, I can believe that a cyclist on a cruise could do feasably 10 - 12 MPH crusing, 10 is probably low. Of course I am just rehashing the story.
I have actually been guilty of holding up cars on this road, but when they honk I move over as far as possible...
The discription, well when you sit behind a cyclist for so long then...
The cyclist was holding up the road for quite some time, I have to ask but I would estimate at least 5 - 10 minutes knowing the road.
Helmet-Head
For the record, it wasn't me, and I would never impede traffic like this (for no reason), nor would I advocate it (which is why I'm not a CM fan).
Serge
Daily Commute
my58vw, thanks for the clarification. This thread follows a regular form--One person makes a post, but not every relevant fact is available. So those of us who comment make up facts to support our positions Given what you say, unless the bike lane was unridable for miles (which is unlikely), the cyclist should have moved over long enough for the guy to pass.
Of course, we don't know what happened before this story. I am much more courteous to drivers who have been courteous to me. If someone has been extraordinarily courteous to me, I will be more likely to endure harsh road conditions to get far enough right for him to pass. If, on the other hand, a driver has been rude, I am less likely to move over. If more than two drivers buzz me on a given stretch of road, I take the lane and hold it.
billh
Sure, the cyclist should have moved over, at some point. I'm suspicious that the motorist has an axe to grind. How much time did this incident cost him? 30 sec, 60 sec, 2 min? How much is this delay in proportion to his total trip time? Is the driver just as intolerant of slow motorists, trucks, etc? If the driver were really in a hurry, wasn't there an alternate route? I'd like to know the drivers level of awareness of the vehicle code regarding bicycles in his state.
operator
Revving engine and leaning on the horn is unacceptable. A light tap on the horn is (as in "hi i'm here", not "hi GET THE F#($* over". Sometimes someone might just not be paying attention.
I'm sure anyone who's ever been honked on maliciously, it really startles you and engages a pissed off attitude.
H23
IMHO both parties behaved badly.
People make mistakes, get distracted or whatever. We all like to get slack when we need it-- but it also goes the other way, we should be willing to give slack whenever called to do it. Do I sound like a subgeni yet?
Anyways, revving one's engine is an extremely aggressive and uncool thing for a motorist to do. Most likely the motorist was frustrated about something else in her life and the annoying cyclist simply facilitated her to vent in an inappropriate way. How much time was lost to that cyclist? Probably a matter of seconds.
brokenrobot
Anyways, revving one's engine is an extremely aggressive and uncool thing for a motorist to do.
Indeed. In my view, it constitutes brandishment - it's not much removed from waving a gun (or other deadly weapon) around, given the implicit threat of vehicular assault. It's likely that the cyclist was out of line, if all details of the OP are accurate, but threatening somebody's life is NEVER acceptable.
-chris
Dchiefransom
We're not? :D
We haven't developed "the handshake" yet.
genec
Sure, the cyclist should have moved over, at some point. I'm suspicious that the motorist has an axe to grind. How much time did this incident cost him? 30 sec, 60 sec, 2 min? How much is this delay in proportion to his total trip time? Is the driver just as intolerant of slow motorists, trucks, etc? If the driver were really in a hurry, wasn't there an alternate route? I'd like to know the drivers level of awareness of the vehicle code regarding bicycles in his state.
Ya know, that never seems to come to drivers' minds... every second in their "race" seems to be important. Never mind their stop at a Starbucks... YOU are impeding their progress. And as far as the cement truck in their way... they have no recourse... that guy is just too big for them to deal with. Motorists view cyclists often as annoying mosquitoes... swat them and they are gone.
But if there are a "swarm" of us... :D
Helmet-Head
Ya know, that never seems to come to drivers' minds... every second in their "race" seems to be important. Never mind their stop at a Starbucks... YOU are impeding their progress. And as far as the cement truck in their way... they have no recourse... that guy is just too big for them to deal with. Motorists view cyclists often as annoying mosquitoes... swat them and they are gone.
Gene,
If I shared your view of drivers' minds, I wouldn't get on the road in a car, much less on a bike.
Serge
genec
Gene,
If I shared your view of drivers' minds, I wouldn't get on the road in a car, much less on a bike.
Serge
Maybe you need to watch more of them drive... I see the "race" thing going on all too often... folks zipping in and out of lanes as if they were rushing to a fire. There is also the infamous zip from the inside lane to the exit ramp without any kind of signal...
I keep telling you "they ARE out there."
Generally "they" tend to be youngish males driving small Japanese vehicles with strange scoops and spoilers and too many decals.
noisebeam
Sadly Gene has it right for perhaps a small percentage of drivers and because of this I do feel unsafe going out in my car. I see car accidents on a weekly basis. Intersection accidents are very common here.
Al
nycm'er
For the record, it wasn't me, and I would never impede traffic like this (for no reason), nor would I advocate it (which is why I'm not a CM fan).
Serge
Can I ask where you live Serge? urban, Sub-urban, suburban or woods? One of these is xurbia but I dont know which. I am trying to figure out what riding environment you are in to explain why you think and post the way you do. Thanks
'nother
Sadly Gene has it right for perhaps a small percentage of drivers and because of this I do feel unsafe going out in my car. I see car accidents on a weekly basis. Intersection accidents are very common here.Have to agree in general terms at least: I don't feel any safer in my car than I do on my bike. Being a cyclist, effective or otherwise, does not increase or reduce the amount of bad driving activity. But I think this is the case everywhere, not just "here" or "wherever Serge is" (which I think is San Diego area or somewher in SoCal?).
genec
Speaking of bad drivers... I saw one tonight that defied explanation. I was with my wife, headed south on hiway 5, near Mission Bay... we were going to meet friends at a retirement party. It was near the 5:00 rush hour, traffic was moving at about 30MPH, or roughly at this speed.
Just in front of us a small red Toyota truck moved over from the far left lane, then turned on the blinker to indicate that they were changing lanes again, or so we thought. The truck then proceeded to go between two vehicles in adjacent lanes... lanes 2 and 3. Let me repeat this... the small red truck, went as a motorcycle between two other cars that were in side by side lanes.
The driver worked his/her way forward on the freeway in 30MPH traffic. They eventually got about 5 car lengths ahead. They only did this between autos/lanes "trick" one time that we noticed.
Effectively they gained what about a second toward what ever their goal was.
There are crazy drivers out there.
my58vw
Generally "they" tend to be youngish males driving small Japanese vehicles with strange scoops and spoilers and too many decals.
The term is ricer...
The problem is that drivers do not have the skills to drive like that.
I got in a road rage incident some time ago with a guy that did the exact thing as the truck... dangerous people.
nycm'er
When I drive usually it is a rental. My girl and I got a rental ended up having to take an upgrade car that was a retiree tank. I was amazed how little effort it took to make this 3 ton car move. I realized that common drivers have little idea what forces it takes to move or slow a car. That scared me, but what really got me was when in traffic I reallized I was on equal footing with cars, they gave me all the room, they were respectful of my safety or apparent investment. That really freaked me out.
billh
Gene,
If I shared your view of drivers' minds, I wouldn't get on the road in a car, much less on a bike.
Serge
This is why cycling is not for everyone. It takes a special courage to ride on the streets of America.
genec
This is why cycling is not for everyone. It takes a special courage to ride on the streets of America.
I know it is tough out there... but should bike riding [i]require[i/] that kind of courage? Some areas seem to be able to take the Fear Factor out of a daily commute. Southern California is glued to the car culture, sadly.
I know the focus is not right when local universities bar bikes from campus... that has to be a reflection of some kind of poor attitude toward bikes... it certainly is not encouraging.
Locally San Diego State University banned bikes from campus... about a year after I graduated. Thought it was a poor sign of things to come. I wonder if the campus bike shop is still there... or if the one on UCSD still exists.
The stupid thing is neither campus has enough parking spaces for all their students if they all drove.
closetbiker
This is why cycling is not for everyone. It takes a special courage to ride on the streets of America.
I don't know about this perception of danger.
It seems to me, the more aware someone is of something, the more able he is of avoiding problems with it.
Driving along in a car, you're insulated from the dangers of the road in perception only. There still are cars passing you just as close as when you're on your bike, you're just insulated from the wind and noise of the road. You're probably distracted by the radio or other distraction and nice and comfortable on a cushy seat. If you're tired, you could even fall asleep in a car while driving.
On a bike, I can see better, am more manouverable, quicker, am much more aware and better motovated to ride safely that if I'm in a car.
billh
But courage is the ability to act in the face of the perception of danger, regardless of the reality of danger. I might tell someone that I'm desperately in need of medicine but there is a group of angry gangsters in front of the drug store around the corner. It takes courage to turn that corner and get the medicine, even if upon turning the corner there are no gangsters there. At least, I think I read that in a fortune cookie once . . .
genec
I don't know about this perception of danger.
It seems to me, the more aware someone is of something, the more able he is of avoiding problems with it.
Driving along in a car, you're insulated from the dangers of the road in perception only. There still are cars passing you just as close as when you're on your bike, you're just insulated from the wind and noise of the road. You're probably distracted by the radio or other distraction and nice and comfortable on a cushy seat. If you're tired, you could even fall asleep in a car while driving.
On a bike, I can see better, am more manouverable, quicker, am much more aware and better motovated to ride safely that if I'm in a car.
It is more than a perception thing:
In an automobile, you have a far higher chance of survivability of an accident, simply due to the metal around you, seatbelts and airbags. There IS a different threat component involved when riding in a car, and when riding on a bike.
closetbiker
It is more than a perception thing:
In an automobile, you have a far higher chance of survivability of an accident, simply due to the metal around you, seatbelts and airbags. There IS a different threat component involved when riding in a car, and when riding on a bike.
I'm not too sure about that either. I know those things do help in a car accident, but cars often take more punishing hits than cyclists in accidents.
Futher, in BC, commuter cyclists make up 2% of traffic but are involved in less that 1% of traffic collisions.
Severity is a very vague term. Road rash is nothing to some but a big deal to some others. Maybe what could help the distinction of the severity of an accident would be number of days of admission to hospital after an accident. Do motorists have longer or shorter stays in the hospital after an accident than cyclists do after their accidents?
genec
Do motorists have longer or shorter stays in the hospital after an accident than cyclists do after their accidents?
No way to answer that... really depends on the type of accidents. Air bags let a lot of folks walk away from what would otherwise be a killer accident though.
closetbiker
No way to answer that... really depends on the type of accidents. Air bags let a lot of folks walk away from what would otherwise be a killer accident though.
I'd think you could look up length of hospital stays by catagory of admissions. I wouldn't want to make a judgement that cyclists are more severly hurt than motorists in collisions without any supporting evidence. Pedestrians are just as exposed as cyclists and both cyclists and pedestrians can be injured by cars if they cross paths with them, but I don't think the level of fear of cars by pedestrians is as great as the level of fear of cars by some who think cyclists are somehow more vunerable to injury from cars. Accident reports show cyclists and pedestrians are injured at the same rate.
Air bags do help, but automotive accidents are still a major source of admissions and stays in hospitals.
slvoid
Maybe they'll make a two toned horn to make some of you happy. :p
A green button on the wheel will say, "meep-meep, I'm here", a red button will say, "outta my way motherf***er!", and a white one will say "turbo-boost".
LittleBigMan
It was about 5 pm and I was traveling down the local street. A guy on a bike was riding down the middle of the one way street...I got behind him and after 500 feet I taped the horn. The rider waved at me and continued riding in the middle.
...I got up behind him and reved up my car and he still did not move...
At one stop sign he rode through and acted like he was going to let me go and did not. It was not until the bike with the clown outfit (bike uniform) saw a cop he let me go.
End story.
This story illustrates the other side of the coin with cars. Do you think the driver was right in the story?
The seemingly obvious answer is that the cyclist was wrong, purposely taking the middle lane just to piss the motorist off. That might have been true, but...
I wonder why the motorist "...got behind him and after 500 feet I tapped the horn." Why didn't the motorist pass? I would have. Was the motorist "teaching the cyclist a lesson?" Then, the motorist "...got behind him and revved up my car and he still did not move..." Why? Again, it would have been much simpler to pass the cyclist.
When I see a cyclist as I'm driving, I immediately look for the best way to pass him/her in a safe, courteous and orderly manner. I never get behind a 25 mph. vehicle and beep my horn.
genec
Why didn't the motorist pass? I would have. Was the motorist "teaching the cyclist a lesson?" Then, the motorist "...got behind him and revved up my car and he still did not move..." Why? Again, it would have been much simpler to pass the cyclist.
Not sure of the mindset that makes that happen, but on a long tour down Baja, just before Christmas back in the '80s, the strangest thing was the Americans and their refusal to cross the center line (which in some places just did not even exist).
The road was really not all that heavily traveled, you could hear someone approaching from a long way off... the Mexicans would see you, move over the center line and act as if they had the whole road to themselves (which they pretty much did) and pass. The Americans (check out the license plates) would hold their line on the right hand side and try to pass without crossing over... even though you could see sometimes a 1/2 mile down the deserted road. They would slow down, but they would not cross the center. Sometimes the road was wider and we could just pull over... other times it was just kinda scary that they did this.
This was a group of 36 cyclists... but we did not ride together... we left where ever we camped on our own time, sometimes met up to eat along the way (you would see another loaded cycle or two and stop to join in), and we would regroup at night. Sometimes you were on your own, other times you might buddy up. We all talked about the odd behaviour of the American drivers and how they would not cross the line.
Sometimes ya just gotta lighten up.
noisebeam
Followup my58vw?
Given the discussion and speculation, I wonder if you would be able to ask this friend more about the situation (in as a polite way as possible ;) ) and fill in some of the details?