"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Phonak Reinstated on Pro Tour by Euro Sport Court

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/7500.0.html

I thought yesterday was supposed to be some big day in Tyler Hamilton's doping case. Did anyone hear anything? Would Phonak reinstate him if he was innocent?

Good news!

Thanks for the news!

Sounds great.

Koffee

Would anyone care if there were no Americans on the team? Especially Tyler?

The French love the French, the Italians the Italians, why is wrong for Americans to like Americans.

I would be just as interested if this was an Ullrich T-mobile issue.

The question should be "Would anybody care if there were "no named" riders on the team?"!

The question should be "Would anybody care if there were "no named" riders on the team?"!

If this were Credit Agricole or Rabobank, would anyone care?

But anyway, I guess it's good to see Phonak in.

No, but that's kind of the point. This probably happens to a lot of "no named" teams.

By "no named" you mean, no American names, right?

How about we replace "no named" with "no grand tour" teams. I understand that you are trying to walk the high road by emphasizing egocentric American stereotype.

Rabo and CA are both "named" and "grand tour" teams. Not trying to walk any high road. I think the "American names" about covers it.

Grasschopper: I don't know what happened to Tyler's case.

The question now is if how seriously Phonak will be taken.

I thought yesterday was supposed to be some big day in Tyler Hamilton's doping case. Did anyone hear anything? Would Phonak reinstate him if he was innocent?

Tyler's hearing was on the 25th the last I heard, unless it was changed. The results or decisions may not be known for a while.

The above decision by the CAS with regard to Phonak's status in the ProTour is so good to see. to quote:

"...It was not possible..., to remove the Phonak team from the ProTour on the sole basis of doping suspicions..."

Glad someone has some good sense and is in a position to overrule the UCI.

I was refering to non grand tour teams in general. I know CA and Rabobank are grand tour teams. I think the people in these forums would be interested if any of these teams had this situation. Do we care more since there is a big named american involved? Sure. So I guess your point is correct.

Would anyone care if there were no Americans on the team? Especially Tyler?

Laggard, would you please get off of your high horse. Thank you. :rolleyes:

Laggard, would you please get off of your high horse. Thank you. :rolleyes:

He must be on a high horse, cause I know he wouldn't come near a camelbak. ;)

He must be on a high horse, cause I know he wouldn't come near a camelbak. ;)

Good one. :p If I were crossing the dessert I'd come near a camelbak. :)

Good one. :p If I were crossing the dessert I'd come near a camelbak. :)

ummm...dessert. :)

How bout desert? I had lunch on my mind.

from cyclingnews:

"However, it is indisputable that, for the Phonak team, the year 2004 was marked by blood tests with average high values, a confirmed doping case and two cases of adverse analytical findings."

agence france presse:

"The two remain the only athletes who have ever tested positive for homologous blood doping."

Laggard:

"The question now is how seriously Phonak will be taken."

For the sake of the continued support of the other sponsors, let's hope they are on a ridiculously short leash.

Some of us do care about cycling not just Americans in cycling. No doubt this forum and just about every bike shop in this country can thank LA, Tyler, and Greg LeMond for helping them grow. Last years TdF would have been awesome if LA, Tyler, and Levi all made the podium. Remember this is still a Euro dominated sport and when an American does well I think it's big news.

I really don't see any difference between the Basque rooting for Iban Mayo or the Germans rooting for Jan than an American cycling fan rooting for LA or Tyler.

One thing that I do see a big difference in, between American and Euro fans, is the attitude towards winning. After the TdF in both ProCycling and Cyclesport (bigger in ProCycling) the writting was very much anti-Lance because of his dominance. In ProCycling one section was called "Armstrong goes Power Mad!" and really laid into him for out sprinting Kleoden for the stage win. I found it interesting in this months Cyclesport that Merkx was critisized for the same thing, his relentless desire to win and crush his rivals. Michael Schumacher and Ferrari are pumelled daily in the Euro press for their dominance in Formula 1. In this country we call teams like that dynasties and in most cases celebrate them (Yankees are the exception).

I think it's unfair to lay into a person (even if they are not as versed in the sport as you are) just because they are LA fans first and cycling fans second. Even though many will loose interest when LA retires some will stay with the sport and become more knowlagable.

Yay Floyd.

Floyd is overrated. Extremely.

Oh, and good news for Phonak.

Floyd is overrated. Extremely.

I have been saying this since the tour when everyone went Floyd crazy. No one listens.

That's really besides the point isn't it? At least he'll be able to ride the Tour.

Geeez, they should create a negativity forum for some of you folks.

from cyclingnews:

"However, it is indisputable that, for the Phonak team, the year 2004 was marked by blood tests with average high values, a confirmed doping case and two cases of adverse analytical findings."

agence france presse:

"The two remain the only athletes who have ever tested positive for homologous blood doping."

Laggard:

"The question now is how seriously Phonak will be taken."

For the sake of the continued support of the other sponsors, let's hope they are on a ridiculously short leash.

This team is to cycling what Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa are to baseball. The owner of Balco said "Doping is not cheating because everyone who is winning is doping". The fact that dopers in ANY sport are not in jail cells seems to suggest he is correct. The "clean" athletes must be the "dopes".

Geeez, they should create a negativity forum for some of you folks.

So that the positive (no pun intended) folks would not be disturbed by the sceptics? :D BoredomForums.net ;)

This team is to cycling what Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa are to baseball. The owner of Balco said "Doping is not cheating because everyone who is winning is doping". The fact that dopers in ANY sport are not in jail cells seems to suggest he is correct. The "clean" athletes must be the "dopes".

Sosa doping?

Floyd is overrated. Extremely.

Oh, and good news for Phonak.


Being old enough to remember going to big bike races in Europe and there being no Americans and an American riding in the European pro peloton a pipedream, whether or not he is "overrated" and not team leader material, that is up to him to determine...all I'll say is, having followed and participated in this sport since the 60's, to have the number of Americans over there riding and to have them getting the chance to lead a team, I think that's pretty cool.

I suspect that the folks that really know talent, whose jobs depend of their making good rider selection decisions, might disagree with you.
And anybody who wears a leader's jersey, even for one day in a grand tour event, in my mind cannot be overrated.

Just my opinion....

Sosa doping?If you saw Sosa up close last year and compared what you saw to the previous five years, you wouldn't bother to ask. Dude let some air out of the tires. If you're an Orioles fan, you're in for a ride. The Cubs outfield may not be so hot right now, but they won't have Sosa's circus around either.

Back to cycling. Don't expect much out of Phonak this year.

And anybody who wears a leader's jersey, even for one day in a grand tour event, in my mind cannot be overrated.

Just my opinion....

So you think it's okay to say that an Alessandro Petacchi, in a TdF yellow jersey, can be rated so highly that most will agree it's inevitable that he'll win the Tour? I like the way you think. Petacchi is my pick for overall victory in the Tour this year.

I don't have a problem with Floyd. I think he is a good rider on a great team. However, everyone is treating him like the new golden boy of American cycling. He isn't. He's almost (if he isn't already) 30 years old, I really don't think he has it in him to win a Grand Tour - especially now with the Pro Tour where all of the really good teams are forced to participate in the Giro and the Vuelta.

So you think it's okay to say that an Alessandro Petacchi, in a TdF yellow jersey, can be rated so highly that most will agree it's inevitable that he'll win the Tour? I like the way you think. Petacchi is my pick for overall victory in the Tour this year.



wow, way to really read into someones' comment.

i liked the phonak team last year: i thought it was great in that team time trial (musta been the tour) where they finished so well despite breaking a few handlebars and tires and droping a few riders. something else i like about them is the bikes they ride. seems like the company (bmc, i think?) is willing to take some chances on design. hopefully the good design elements trickle down to the more affordable frames in the near future.

No one is hoping Landis falls off his bike. I hope he does well, but like Devil and others have noted, he's not a good bet as a GC winner. Then again, neither is Thomas Voekler or Vladimir Karpets (yet), and a lot of folks jumped on those bandwagons last year.

The real question is: does Phonak deserve its spot in the ProTour now that they've essentially been nuked and reconstituted? Are there other teams that might show more promise? I sincerely don't know as my knowledge of continental teams and lesser knowns is limited. Just wondering.

No one is hoping Landis falls off his bike. I hope he does well, but like Devil and others have noted, he's not a good bet as a GC winner. Then again, neither is Thomas Voekler or Vladimir Karpets (yet), and a lot of folks jumped on those bandwagons last year.

The real question is: does Phonak deserve its spot in the ProTour now that they've essentially been nuked and reconstituted? Are there other teams that might show more promise? I sincerely don't know as my knowledge of continental teams and lesser knowns is limited. Just wondering.

Considering the year that Phonak had the UCI should have given that spot to Ag2r. But then again Cofidas should have been excluded also as their problems were just as bad.

Considering the year that Phonak had the UCI should have given that spot to Ag2r. But then again Cofidas should have been excluded also as their problems were just as bad.

Excellent point. I felt the same way about AG2R.

About Floyd: He's a talented rider. I'm not sure he's as talented as people want to believe he is. There are people though who anytime they see an American do something like lead Armstrong up a climb will then see this rider as one of the peloton's super-elite riders who is deserving of his own team. Because they are so focused on American riders they lose perspective on the talent levels of their guy verses the rest of the peloton.

Name three guys on the Phonak team that could support Landis in the mountains.

Hell... for that matter, name anybody else on that team. ;)

And I tell ya, if Ag2R's Nazon, Flickinger et al don't get a wild card pick... I'll be bummed.

Name three guys on the Phonak team that could support Landis in the mountains.

Gutierrez, Pereiro, Gonzalez



Hell... for that matter, name anybody else on that team. ;)

Grabsch, Jalabert, the danish guy :) , and a couple of others.


Flickinger is just another big stud who will win a race every other year or so. ;)

Excellent point. I felt the same way about AG2R.

About Floyd: He's a talented rider. I'm not sure he's as talented as people want to believe he is. There are people though who anytime they see an American do something like lead Armstrong up a climb will then see this rider as one of the peloton's super-elite riders who is deserving of his own team. Because they are so focused on American riders they lose perspective on the talent levels of their guy verses the rest of the peloton.

I agree that fans tend to do this but you have to think that the "powers that be" at Phonak would know better. When FL went to Phonak it seemed like an odd decision on his part. Tyler was the obvious leader of the team (this was before the doping problems) and I couldn't understand why he would trade working for LA in for working for TH. Unless the money was better at Phonak or he knew something that we didn't about Tyler.

Regardless the biggest problem the UCI has, aside from the rift with the major tour organizers, is it's inconsistancy in meeting out punishment. The Cofidas doping scandal was second only to Festina's and yet they were allowed into the ProTour with out any problems. Before the UCI can make any head way into cleaning up this sport it needs to deliver it's punishment equally accross the board.

I agree that fans tend to do this but you have to think that the "powers that be" at Phonak would know better.

You might be right: teams will generally be less 'whimsical' than us fans when signing new top riders. On the other hand, imagine how difficult it is these days to 'buy' a GC contender. It's not like there's an Armstrong, Cunego, Basso, Kloden, ... around every corner. The Rabobank example comes to mind: Leipheimer was their podium investment. And we all know how well that worked out. :D

Gutierrez, Pereiro, Gonzalez
Meh. Still.

Meh. Still.

Well, these are the guys, along with Perez(oops!) that were supposed to support Hamilton in the mtns, so I'm guessing they could support Landis.

But I don't really think Phonak has a clear leader for the GT's on their team. Landis hasn't really proven anything to me other than that he is better at time trialing now, which is very important, and he can have a good day or so in the mtns. His performance in the Vuelta last year was a bit anticlimatic. At his age, I'm not projecting huge gains, but ya never know. It's been done before.

The riders on Phonak all have the opportunity of a lifetime to emerge and lead. Who will do it remains to be seen.

Leipheimer was their podium investment. And we all know how well that worked out.

That wasn't entirely Levi's fault. After his accident in '03 Rabobank didn't want to put all it's egg's in one basket in '04 and didn't give Levi the support he needed. A prime example is the way they let Michael Rathmussen attack in the mountains. Rather than keep him back to support Levi they turned him loose. This is a real difference between Postal (Discovery) and the rest of the peleton. When was the last time you saw one of LA's team mates go off the front and try to win a stage? Or the last time Postal tried to get a stage win for any of it's other riders for that matter? Every other so called "contender" team spends vast amounts of energy trying to get stage wins. T-Mobil does it for Zabel and by the time they get to the mountains Jan is basically on his own, and Postal is there showing the rest of the field the way. In my mind it's not just Lance that wins the TdF it's the fact that his team does absolutely nothing else but ride for him. There is no other team in professional cycling that does that. No other team is willing to risk their entire tour on one rider in an "all or nothing" assault on the race.

That wasn't entirely Levi's fault.

Okay, Rabobank wasn't exactly modelled after the 'all for one principle'. In fact, they are having a hard time deciding on a coherent overall strategy. Part of them is aimed at one-day classics, part of them at single stage buccaneering, part of them at taking a podium spot.



... the way they let Michael Rathmussen attack in the mountains. Rather than keep him back to support Levi they turned him loose.

I remember that stage. But you might just as well ask whether there was anything left 'to support'. Ordering Rasmussen to attack (inasfar he was instructed to do so at all) might just as well have served a tactical purpose: wear the other leaders out while saving your designated rider. If Leipheimer would have had the legs on that particular day, probably an entirely different scenario would have been chosen.



In my mind it's not just Lance that wins the TdF it's the fact that his team does absolutely nothing else but ride for him. There is no other team in professional cycling that does that. No other team is willing to risk their entire tour on one rider in an "all or nothing" assault on the race.

I don't think that US Postal is entirely unique in that respect. Okay, they obviously have been the best at implementing this strategy (having a team leader who is actually able to 'deliver' helps a lot). Just as the Merckx squadra in the good old days. And I would say that Telekom also pretty much used to play the 'GC card'. True, they bring a pure sprinter (unlike USPS) for the occasional stage win, but they easily sacrifice his lead-out men for more Ullrich domestiques.

The truth about Floyd is yet to be determined....were his responsibilities on Postal a gift or a liability in how they effected his results. He has potential ...has shown the ability to TT and climb. Perhaps some have jumped on his "Band Wagon" too early or maybe they just got it right...2 years and then we will have a much better idea.

The Anti-americanism in cycling parallels similar circumstances surrounding motor racing in the 60s. Back then, drivers would dominate their field in various different races. Short course and endurance races would highlight big names just like the Tours and one-day classics. Then FORD stepped in with an organized factory effort. There was teamwork which focused stategy on getting to the top. The Shelby Cobras gradually began winning and finally the Ford GT40s dominated the endurance races.

How does this relate to cycling? Because its the same criticism and the same attitude against americans different approach to racing. Today however, every team uses the same methodology pioneered by FORD back in the 60s. The ProTour in cycling is very similar to the F-1 format of race organization. I believe the USPS domination will be emulated by more teams as the racing calendar is shaped by the commercial prospects of the new format. It was good for motorsports in the 60s and I am remaining optimistic, it will do the same for cycling.

The Anti-americanism in cycling [...]

... which is omnipresent, directed at everyone and everything American, and shared by everyone actively or passively involved in the sport?



[...]its the same criticism and the same attitude against americans different approach to racing [...]

... which is invented, carried out, and admired by Americans only?

The truth about Floyd is yet to be determined....were his responsibilities on Postal a gift or a liability in how they effected his results. He has potential ...has shown the ability to TT and climb. Perhaps some have jumped on his "Band Wagon" too early or maybe they just got it right...2 years and then we will have a much better idea.

I agree totally. But IMO he should of stayed with Armstrong after everything that was done for him. I think he owes alot to Lance for his effort to make him not only a better domestique but all around more conscientious cyclist. His road career could of gone drastically awry if Lance hadn't taken him under his wing.

Looking at the Landis of now vs the Landis of 1999 he's a totally different cyclist. :)

[...] IMO he should of stayed with Armstrong after everything that was done for him. I think he owes alot to Lance for his effort to make him not only a better domestique but all around more conscientious cyclist. His road career could of gone drastically awry if Lance hadn't taken him under his wing.

Loyalty and professional sports are a rare combination.

BTW, Armstrong also 'owes' Landis for his services as a domestique. IMHO it's hard to visualise Armstrong going out of his way for the benefit of another rider, especially outside the context of the racing itself. My guess is that you are overrating his contribution to the development of Landis. Did they train together (except for the occasional USPS training camp)? For all I know, Armstrong's teammates hardly get to see him 'out of competition'. But you may call that 'anti-American'.

So you think it's okay to say that an Alessandro Petacchi, in a TdF yellow jersey, can be rated so highly that most will agree it's inevitable that he'll win the Tour? I like the way you think. Petacchi is my pick for overall victory in the Tour this year.

The Tour isn't the only bike race in the world. :D :D


everyone is treating him like the new golden boy of American cycling. He isn't.

everyone?

Ok, so maybe it wasn't a response to my post, just a knee-jerk reaction to seeing his name. You can be a fan of someone without expecting them to win the biggest races. Fans of Bob Roll... bandwagoners all. Steve Tilford.. overrated. :rolleyes: