Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Level Hubs - Info for those on the fence

As some of you know, I've been testing the Level Components (http://www.levelcomponents.com) fixed gear hub for a while now. One concern I've heard on this board and elsewhere was since the cogs are proprietary people were worried about the company going out of business and there not being a source of cogs. I brought this up with Scott at Level and here's what he said:

"I have been beating down as many doors as i can with respect to this issue. The worst case scenario would be if I do go out of business I would give an independent cog manufacturer the specs for the cogs and they (the consumer) would have a viable source for spares. Best case is that all the manufacturers I have talked with accept what I am doing and start producing cogs."

Thumbnail review of the hub: Two thumbs up. Full detailed review in the next issue of SSO.

It certainly makes a lot of sense to lose the cog threads and lockring, but it makes me wonder why this was not done a long time ago by others?

Is it because of weight concerns? I mean, wouldn't a hub that accepts screws like that have to be solid where the screws go in? Or are there manufacturing issues that are no longer a problem now that everything is CNC?

Why not sooner? Maybe complacency, may hub manufacturers not wanting to produce their own cogs. Could be other reasons. Yes, the hub will be a bit beefier in the spot where the bolts go (like a disc hub), but we are talking about aluminum and non-rotational weight. Not a big deal in my opinion. When it makes sense, I prefer function over saving a few grams, but not everyone feels that way.

if i see widespead availability, i'm all over it.

When I get a track frame to build up, I'm building my rear wheel with a Level hub. It's the kind of solution that just makes too much sense to me.

Why did it take so long for someone to do this? Who knows. Why did it take people so long to put functionally useful wheels on luggage? Sometimes there's just not a good explanation.

Now, this may have been covered in another thread on this topic, but...

Is there any appreciable difference in function between the Level and a re-purposed front disc hub w/ drilled cog?

I remember seeing something about the three shear tabs on the Level keeping all shear forces off the bolts... but is this really the case? If so, does it really matter? Disc brakes have gotten along dandy with five or six bolts sharing the load, and I would imagine a cog would be a similar situation.

Front disc hub + new axle + spacers + drilled cog still seems to come out much less $$ than the Level.

Less money yes.

Slightly ghetto-rigged, yes.

However, the price I think, reflects demand and availability. If it's just a person or two putting out high quality hubs like these on their own, then it makes sense. It doesn't seem too unreasonable either - a Dura Ace/Superbe/Paul hub is about the same price.

It's evolution. And evolution tends to come at a price, at least in the beginning.

Well, the shear tabs you mentioned are one. Flip-flop is another. Cogs for the disc set up are only available from Boone (in Titantium). You could drill yourself, but you better be good. Front hubs are made for a smaller spacing meaning more axle will be hangin off each end, more chance to bend. Chainline: the Level can be adjusted by flipping the assymetrical cog. Those are the ones I can think of.

I know people who are running the Boone cog on a rear disc hub. Not sure if the front disc hub will produce the same chainline. And I'm not sure what the chainline is for the rear, so you might need to play with things up front (chainrings).

What is the current cost? Inkdwheels had discussed these with me for my future build. My current short list:

Pual.
Surly.
Velocity.

Cost is a second factor next to durabilty with performance a close to second.

Cogs for the disc set up are only available from Boone (in Titantium).

Yep and they cost $42. I tried this setup with a front hub. Its a hassle. But if you have a mtb and you can just flip it over. More power to ya.

I think the level hubs are $150 rear $100 front. Down from $220 rear.

:
Pual.
WTF is Pual???? Lay off the bottle, will.

Paul! http://www.paulcomp.com/

No, WK had it right, he's talking about Pual Component Engineering

http://icarus.uic.edu/~rchapp1/images/misc/anim2.jpg

of course! my friend raul works there. or is it rual...

Thanks for the responses on the disc hub. It seems simple in concept, but as mentioned, it sounds like a bear once you consider chainline, cogs, axles... all that crap. I'll definitely consider a Level once my Suzue Jr. gives out.

WTF is Pual???? Lay off the bottle, will.

Shaaa.. As if...

If only...

I could use an ice cold something right now.

Brennavin. Yes.. Brennavin

To ressurect a dead thread...I just picked Level over Phil & Paul. Should finally have my flip flop fixed-fixed on the road in a couple weeks.

The design is innovative. The price is competitive with Phil. I don't need an 1/8 chain whip now.

That headwind on the way home won't make me curse being overgeared anymore. I'm excited about that.

I visited the LeVel (http://www.levelcomponents.com/index.html) site.
What a great idea.
I don't understand all the dimensions and options, but I understand the basic concept.
It seems obvious now that someone has done it.

Hey Folks!
I have been riding Level Hubs for some time now and I have had no issues at all with them. They may weigh a little more than some other hubs, but its not significant enough to make it the least bit undesirable.

I actually started selling Level Hubs in Canada and have kept in touch with Scott at Level to find out what's new. Here is some info that not all of you may know.

-They are experimenting with coloured anodizing (and black). These are not for sale yet, but they are trying to see how they turn out.

-They are working on refining their BOLT ON freewheel. Once they have this done, their freewheel will bolt on, just like the cogs.

-They are working on finishing up their disc rotor mount which will also BOLT onto the Hub like the Cogs do.

Anyways, there isn't a huge buzz on these in Canada yet, but I am hoping that it catches on soon. I love these hubs!

Anybody else care to add some feedback? I'm also looking into some rear hub options...
thanks.

Anybody else care to add some feedback? I'm also looking into some rear hub options...
thanks.

Hi Folks...

I think I mentioned this before but I'm going to be spending a month working with Scott Hansen (of level) in Fiji-ish starting in about 3 weeks. If you have any questions/suggestions that others have not been able to answer, post them here and I'll pass them on to him. ....and sorry, no, I won't ask him for free samples ;-(

Take care...

Jim

Have fun Jimy!!! Scott told me about his "time on a ship!"

If anyone has any questions while Scott is away, feel free to give me a shout also. I have been working with Scott and selling his hubs here in Canada for some time and I can do my best to answer any questions. I have plenty of stock of the hubs and cogs as well.

Cheers

the level hub is an awesome idea and i have heard nothing but good reports, i really wish the company success and would love to try one of their hubs someday. i just recenetly bought a new hub, and there are a few reasons i didn't pick one up just yet...

when i bought a phil over level, its because i know that the phil is going to be spinning smooth for years. maybe the level hubs are built to compete with the top hub manufacturers, time will tell. lets not forget the chub hub and how bombproof that turned out to be... everybody bought into those things, the kids at reload were selling them... and now a year or two later, everybody realizes what crap they were.

i dont want to put level and chubhub in the same category, but i think its important to be skeptical with newer products.

maybe its just me, but i dont think its a real hassle using a chainwhip and lock ring, and have never had a cog slip on me. i rarely change gearing, but i already own all the cogs i need and dont want to invest in new ones on top of the price of the hub.

just a few things to think about.

maybe its just me, but i dont think its a real hassle using a chainwhip and lock ring, and have never had a cog slip on me. i rarely change gearing, but i already own all the cogs i need and dont want to invest in new ones on top of the price of the hub.

just a few things to think about.

Of course you take a chance whenever you invest in a new product.

Cogs usually give you a high return on ebay...

I'll be doing my first ride on the Level wheel tomorrow. I'll let you know what I think.

my biggest fear is thatthe bolts might sheer off.....i still think i feel more comfortable with a lockring....am i wrong

the level hub is an awesome idea and i have heard nothing but good reports, i really wish the company success and would love to try one of their hubs someday. i just recenetly bought a new hub, and there are a few reasons i didn't pick one up just yet...

when i bought a phil over level, its because i know that the phil is going to be spinning smooth for years. maybe the level hubs are built to compete with the top hub manufacturers, time will tell. lets not forget the chub hub and how bombproof that turned out to be... everybody bought into those things, the kids at reload were selling them... and now a year or two later, everybody realizes what crap they were.

i dont want to put level and chubhub in the same category, but i think its important to be skeptical with newer products.

maybe its just me, but i dont think its a real hassle using a chainwhip and lock ring, and have never had a cog slip on me. i rarely change gearing, but i already own all the cogs i need and dont want to invest in new ones on top of the price of the hub.

just a few things to think about.


I totally agree with you. You just bought a PHIL Hub, so why would you even think about investing in another high-end hub. You are right too, Phil hubs are tried and true.

But one thing is for sure. These new Levels are not a flash in the pan. I have been riding mine every day for months now and although its not years...it will be. Level is new (compared to Phil or Campy), but their design really does fix a lot that of problems that have plagued us in the fixed community for years.
That is something that companies like CHUBB could never boast. Those hubs were nice to look at, and BIG...but really didn't do anything special, and as we found out, weren't easy to service and didn't last.

The Level's ARE easy to service, and have the sealed cartridge bearings, their cogs are stainless, and they use Torx bolts to fasten them to the hub. Without even trying one, you can tell that this is a quality product. But from experience I know that once you ride one, you will love it. I have ridden Phil, Campy, and Miche and the Level is easily comparable with the Phil or Campy Hub and miles above the Miche hubs.

So if you already HAVE working parts, don't go and replace them, but when you are looking...give these a shot, or at least check in with someone who has been riding them and ask them to let you take it for a testride!

my biggest fear is thatthe bolts might sheer off.....i still think i feel more comfortable with a lockring....am i wrong

Yes, you're wrong...the bolts don't hold the cog on, there are three burly cnc'd tabs that do. The bolts just keep it from wiggling off, and they don't bear any weight. I had the same concern, feeling certain that I could snap those measly little bolts, so I understand...

"i'll have the phil high flange and lock ring combo. single sided fixed, 120mm. yes, and an eai cog as well. pardon me? ah, 15 tooth, please. to go. thank you."

"i'll have the phil high flange and lock ring combo. single sided fixed, 120mm. yes, and an eai cog as well. pardon me? ah, 15 tooth, please. to go. thank you."

Have fun schlepping a couple of heavy extra tools with you if you go fixed touring. I'll just bring my itty bitty torx (allen) wrench and extra cogs.

fixed touring

better make that phil a double.

A friend of mine did it...and I think he was on a single as I don't recall him flipping his wheel, but maybe I wasnt' paying attention. We did it loaded too, RACKS AND ALL!

A friend of mine did it...and I think he was on a single as I don't recall him flipping his wheel, but maybe I wasnt' paying attention. We did it loaded too, RACKS AND ALL!

Fixed touring on the Level hub (http://singlespeedoutlaw.com/archives/archive-11072004-11132004.html)

No flipping or flopping though.

fixed touring; i've contemplated picking up a cross check solely for this purpose. if the project ever comes to fruition, i'd give serious thought to a set of levels. as for track and 'streettrack', i'll stick with phils.

fixed touring; i've contemplated picking up a cross check solely for this purpose. if the project ever comes to fruition, i'd give serious thought to a set of levels. as for track and 'streettrack', i'll stick with phils.

We were in Northern Spain and Southern France, the kind of place where smaller gears help for up and bigger gears help for down. It was after Barcelona in 1997...

The basic concept is sound. Threading a rotating component is just a generally silly idea that people have had to use for lack of a better solution for a long time.

And to those of you who are afraid you'll shear off the bolts... Lay off the ego a bit. ;) Motorcycles use fully floating brake calipers that bolt on with 5 little tabs that happily accept the straing of slowing a 500 pound bike from 140mph to stop in 4 seconds. It won't be a problem to engineer a hub to accept the strain from little pink human. ;)

peace,
sam

I love everything about the Level hub except the chainline. Why not 42mm? It just makes it harder for me to justify spending that much on a hub. But once I had my bike set up for it, I'd probably love it.

Any comments on the chainline issue from folks who've tried it?

my legs are machines....

I love everything about the Level hub except the chainline. Why not 42mm? It just makes it harder for me to justify spending that much on a hub. But once I had my bike set up for it, I'd probably love it.

Any comments on the chainline issue from folks who've tried it?Why is it harder to justify? If necessary, you use a slightly wider BB. But I doubt you'll need to.


I'm running it on a crosscheck in the 52mm mode spaced at 135mm, so I can't offer real world info on the 45mm chainline.

Flythebike is correct too. The torx bolts won't be shearing off, becuase they really aren't bearing any load.

I know that its only a matter of time before Level gets into the mainstream. They can't expect people to choose them consistently over hubs like Phil right away...but after riding the Level for some time now, I am pretty sure that before long they will be the hub of choice. I would choose a Level over a Phil any day, but that's because I've ridden both now and there are simply too many advantages that the level offers. From the easy of cog switching, to the huge advantage of superior cogs. Not too mention the fact that working with Scott from Level has been an absolute joy. Being able to see these things grow from a grass roots beginning has been amazing!

I'm gonna guess that the different chainline allows you to run the ring on the outside of a standard road double. Is it track spaced? Nah. But it's not so terrible. I'm guessing they couldn't get a 42/52mm on the flip-flop cog so they went with something that'd be reasonably acceptable.

As for shear loads on the torx bolts, are the big tabs press fit or does the cog slide right on? Basically I'm wondering if, in spite of design, the bolts don't end up bearing all the load until the point at which they break and then the big milled tabs/mesas/whatevers "catch" the cog.

I think the level hubs are $150 rear $100 front. Down from $220 rear.

Oh by the way. The cost is still $220USD for the rear. I talked to Scott about this, and perhaps you may find someone giving these away (anyone selling these for $150 would not be making any money at all) but most all dealers will be charging $200-$220 for the rear.

Oh by the way. The cost is still $220USD for the rear. I talked to Scott about this, and perhaps you may find someone giving these away (anyone selling these for $150 would not be making any money at all) but most all dealers will be charging $200-$220 for the rear.

the prices on your page are in $CDN, correct? ;)

beatfik yes they are. we're trying to work to price them in Canadian Dollars comparable to the Phil, Paul, Dura Ace Hubs. The market here in Canada is slightly different than the US. Also our prices may be going up soon, as the $205CAD price for the rear was a sale price to get some interest in Level early in their development.

woah...so these arent track spaced?

does that mean i cant run it on my *giigles* new track frame with track cranks?

you can get them in a 120mm spacing, but they have a 44mm chainline.
so in theory, you'd need a 4mm longer spindle that you normally would for your cranks. or not.

Why is it harder to justify? If necessary, you use a slightly wider BB. But I doubt you'll need to.


The hub is already a stretch for me, and adding a new BB makes it even more costly. I also like the idea of being able to move it from bike to bike which might require a new BB for each one. If I did reequip my bikes, it would be less than ideal to switch back to a 42mm chainline.

Maybe I just figured it out. Sell everything except the one on which I'll put the Level. That'll pay for the BB.

i agree....a seperate BB is kinda out of the question...i want to stick with standard sizing i think

hey bikeophile...how about this...is you give me a hub....i will paint you shops website on my bike with an add for level hubs...ill be your own personal philly billboard

As for shear loads on the torx bolts, are the big tabs press fit or does the cog slide right on? Basically I'm wondering if, in spite of design, the bolts don't end up bearing all the load until the point at which they break and then the big milled tabs/mesas/whatevers "catch" the cog.The cog fits on the tabs TIGHT, the tabs are definitely bearing the load definitely . But, regarding shear strength, disc brakes rotors bolt on with six bolts and handle it fine. And people are now using disc hubs with a fixed cog mated up where the disc would go and that's working too, so that shouldn't be a worry.