Bicycle Mechanics - 8 Speed vs. 9 Speed vs. 10 Speed?

I have a 1983 SR road bike which is currently configured with downtube shifters and a seven-speed freewheel.

I'm thinking to upgrade to brifters, and I've been looking at eBay.

My question is, what are the pros and cons associated with 8 speed vs. 9 speed vs. 10 speed?

What I mean is, I'm going to abandon the 27" wheels and everything else (except maybe the brakes, if I can find a way to put Koolstop pads on Shimano Arabesque brake calipers). So the rear dropouts will be spread to 130mm, and I was thinking, why go with a used 8 speed group when I can just go with 10 speed Ultegra or whatever? In for a penny, in for a pound, etc.

do the brakes have sufficient room to let the pads be adjusted 4mm lower and still be parallel to the rims? you need that to put 700c wheels on a 27" bike. On one bike, I needed about 1.5mm more than was available but there was plenty of metal on the ends of the brake calibers, so I used a small round 'rat tail' file to lengthen the hole that the pads fit in.


my take on 8 vs 9 vs 10. 10 requires unique everything, uses very thin sprockets and a very thin chain. its more fragile, your parts will wear out faster.

8 or 9 is the sweet spot, IMHO. if you're buying new stuff, there's better crank sets and derailleurs available in 9-speed than in 8 speed. Personally, I'd try and find an older 105 or ultegra 8 or 9 speed set and use that.

your old bike, as a 7 speed, it probably has 125mm between the rear dropouts (aka the nut-to-nut width of the rear axle). anything new will be 130mm. you'll need to 'spread' the rear triangles of the bike about 5mm. if its steel, this isn't hard at all, if its aluminum or whatever, forgetit.

re: swappnig the brakes, assuming they are sidepulls or centerpulls, getting new brakes may be harder than you think, as all the new ones use flush mounting hardware and won't fit through the old holes in the brake bridge and fork crown.

do the brakes have sufficient room to let the pads be adjusted 4mm lower and still be parallel to the rims? you need that to put 700c wheels on a 27" bike.

I think they do, but I have not tried yet. I will try, because I'm curious.

Brakes are pictured below.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y-3om0MMQkU/S95CKSHw5WI/AAAAAAAABIM/pKtCy1igaWE/s800/1983%2520SR%2520Semi%2520Pro%2520001.jpg

yeah, see, you're almost at the limit of travel on them now. grab the brake, measure how far from the top of the rim to the top of the brake, then adjust one of them as far down as it goes, and measure that again. if its not a good 4mm difference, you'll likely find the brakes are hitting the 700c rims just a little too high. now, I've suffered with this and trimmed a bevel on the top of the brake shoe, and then later broke down and filed them as I described to give me another 1-1.5mm of downwards reach. on the brake I did it on, there was adequate room for this.

those Shimano 600 were classic brakes. 600 became Ultegra in later generations. Until DuraAce came out, the 600 was Shimano's best stuff.

IMHO 7 or 8 speeds are perfect. They still use a "normal" width chain and the parts are so much cheaper. Most of my bikes are 8 speed now because it's too hard to find good 7S shifters (and to an extent cassettes). RDs are easy to find, FDs can be a bit tricker but you just need to get an older one or compromise with a 9S unit. Cranks are fine, you can use a new crank with older rings.

To me, 9/10/11S is just unneeded expense and shortened drivetrain life. I see no benefit. 7 and 8 speed rears give me all the range I need with plenty of steps in between.


Until DuraAce came out, the 600 was Shimano's best stuff.

Sorry to veer off topic, but this isn't true. Dura Ace has been around since 1973. In the mid 70s, 600 wasn't all that great and was found on some pretty low end bikes.

Do the math.. what gear ratios do you really need,, 'speeds' is s cog count inventory, nothing more..

I have a 1983 SR road bike which is currently configured with downtube shifters and a seven-speed freewheel.

I'm thinking to upgrade to brifters, and I've been looking at eBay.

My question is, what are the pros and cons associated with 8 speed vs. 9 speed vs. 10 speed?


8 speed allows an 11-18, 12-19, or 13-21 cassette with good spacing (one tooth jumps through the 19 cog) for road riding (although it's worth nothing that the stock road triple 30 ring paired with a 21 large cog is the same as 42x28 or 39x27).

9 speed allows 11-19, 12-21, or 13-23.

10 speed nets 11-21, 12-23, or 13-25/26.

The side plates are thinner and cassettes more expensive, although with people getting 20,000+ miles out of a $24 - $40 (starting price for Shimano and Campagnolo 10 speed cassettes) that's not too interesting.

10 speed chains start at $20, although that's still not too interesting.

As a Campagnolo guy you'll want to upgrade to 10 (with current Record/Chorus QS levers or 2010 Veloce/Centaur Ultrashift levers) or 11 (Chorus or better shifters) to retain the same multi-cog shifting capabilities of down-tube levers and most ergo levers made since 1992. 8 is a very bad choice since the shifter small parts have been discontinued and NOS supply dried up, poor cassette choices, and unique cog pattern.

if I can find a way to put Koolstop pads on Shimano Arabesque brake calipers

It's not exactly hard, you just bolt them on....

I like 9 speed.
Cassettes are only a couple $ more than 8 and come in a MUCH wider variety of combinations.
Chain might be $5-10 more, but considering the miles you get out of one, it's a non issue.
Shifters will be a little more. I'm not familiar enough with road shifters to have a feel for that.
Going to 10 speed, nothing is cheap.

.....if I can find a way to put Koolstop pads on Shimano Arabesque brake calipers.
You can purchase Kool Stop brake shoes (complete pads, backers, etc in one unit) to replace the OEM Shimano shoes or, better, purchase Kool Stop "Dura Type" pad holders and pads to replace your current shoes. After that all you have to replace are the slip-in pads.

Here is the Dura Type pad holder and pad assembly link: http://www.koolstop.com/english/road_pad.html

Forget the ebay parts accumulation route if you are going 8/9/or 10 speed (too costly). Instead, pick up a nice donor bike locally, swap the entire drivetrain: wheels, cassette, shifters, derailleurs. Resell the donor and you are done.

I have done mostly 8 speed as I tend to find more donor bikes in that configuration. But I also have done a handful of nine speed.

You can purchase Kool Stop brake shoes (complete pads, backers, etc in one unit) to replace the OEM Shimano shoes or, better, purchase Kool Stop "Dura Type" pad holders and pads to replace your current shoes. After that all you have to replace are the slip-in pads.

Here is the Dura Type pad holder and pad assembly link: http://www.koolstop.com/english/road_pad.html

Edit: OK, I found your other thread and see that you know about the Dura Type pads and holders. See my posting there as to why you should use them.

You can purchase Kool Stop brake shoes (complete pads, backers, etc in one unit) to replace the OEM Shimano shoes or, better, purchase Kool Stop "Dura Type" pad holders and pads to replace your current shoes. After that all you have to replace are the slip-in pads.

Here is the Dura Type pad holder and pad assembly link: http://www.koolstop.com/english/road_pad.html


I tried the Dura Koolstops, but the channel on the calipers is too narrow for them. To use them I would either need to file/drill the calipers, or somehow reduce the diameter of the fitting on the pad itself.

I have a friend who put Campy 8 speed on a 1990's Vetta (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/316129-Classic-Italian-Steel-Experts-Vetta). He got the whole drivetrain plus a wheelset for $400, and it came out great. He's not had to replace anything yet, however, but that's what got me thinking about this.

On my main road bike, I have a compact crank with a 10-speed 11-28 cassette, which I like very much. So I am inclined to replicate that, if I can. But I don't want to throw money at this, only to find out something isn't feasible after I have the parts in-hand. For example:


re: swappnig the brakes, assuming they are sidepulls or centerpulls, getting new brakes may be harder than you think, as all the new ones use flush mounting hardware and won't fit through the old holes in the brake bridge and fork crown.

Would you elaborate on this? Are you saying something like this (http://www.cambriabike.com/Shimano-BR-R650-Road-Brake-Caliper-Silver-Rear.asp) can't easily be used? Help me to understand.

Currently the RD is an Arabesque long cage, and the freewheel is a Sachs 13-28. If I could get decent brifters and keep the drivetrain otherwise unchanged, that would be very tempting. Is that a realistic solution?

I tried the Dura Koolstops, but the channel on the calipers is too narrow for them. To use them I would either need to file/drill the calipers, or somehow reduce the diameter of the fitting on the pad itself.


That's not an issue I'd forseen, sorry, I didn't mean to seem patronising with my earlier post

Your best bet would be modifying the calipers - the slots are probably only about a millimetre too narrow, so you'd only be losing half a mm from each side. The best way would be to drill the ends to the diameter you want, then file away the excess material between the two holes. That gives you rounded ends and avoids notches, which would tend to act as stress concentrations and potentially weaken the caliper.

If you do still want to replace your calipers, read http://www.sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#recessed.

The whole article is worth looking at, but it should load at the section that answers your question.

As for brifters operating with your current drivetrain, is your current right-hand shifter indexed? If so, a set of 7-speed Shimano brifters (you'd be looking on eBay or something, they're not made anymore) might work with it, although I'm not sure if Shimano messed with their indexing standards at any point.

A voice with sad experience here: Might be more cost-effective to sell the SR and buy a used road bike set up the way you want.

I had a Univega Gran Rally (great bike) that I fitted a 700c wheelset to. Used an 8 speed 12-28 cassette. Spreading the frame the few mm was literally done by hand. Aligned the dropouts vertically with a 12' Crescent wrench. Kept the down tube shifters. No need to change anything beyond that. Could use the same Shimano 600 derailleurs and crankset.

I've sunk too much money into projects that ended up being up being almost as good as a decent used bike that I could have bought for less.

Its the gear ratios that count, 'speeds' is a parts inventory..

What gear ratios do you actually use and need? count teeth, do the math .

A voice with sad experience here: Might be more cost-effective to sell the SR and buy a used road bike set up the way you want.

I had a Univega Gran Rally (great bike) that I fitted a 700c wheelset to. Used an 8 speed 12-28 cassette. Spreading the frame the few mm was literally done by hand. Aligned the dropouts vertically with a 12' Crescent wrench. Kept the down tube shifters. No need to change anything beyond that. Could use the same Shimano 600 derailleurs and crankset.

I've sunk too much money into projects that ended up being up being almost as good as a decent used bike that I could have bought for less.


I appreciate your advice. To be direct, I have a soft spot in my heart for this bike. Stupid, maybe, but that is my problem. The frame was made in Osaka before the Yen got strong, so I think it is a good frame and I enjoy riding it. (My poor man's Rivendell equivalent.) But at the same time, I would like to get the shifters on the bars, and if I can do that without wasting a lot of money, it would make me happy. It is an opportunity to learn, to tinker, and so forth.

@Airburst, that article by Sheldon Brown is very helpful, many thanks. I will have to investigate the brake issue in more detail.

The shifters are Shimano 600 Arabesque style, and not indexed. They have proprietary Shimano bosses under them, but I recently saw something which made me start thinking again (http://simplicityvintagecycles.com/2012/04/09/the-kodiak-saga-continues/) about upgrading (this (http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/10837/can-a-relative-beginner-adjust-spacing-on-a-501-cromo-road-frame) contributed, too).

My main road bike has Ultegra 6700 on it, and I like it better than the downtube shifters. However I learned to be lazy about shifting (i.e., refrain from shifting frequently) while riding the 1983 SR, which is probably a good thing.

The collective wisdom here is considerable. It's such a great resource.

I appreciate your advice. To be direct, I have a soft spot in my heart for this bike. Stupid, maybe, but that is my problem.....

And I have a Schwinn Continental in the garage waiting for restoration because mine was stolen 33 years ago. No need to explain soft spots.

Would you elaborate on this? Are you saying something like this (http://www.cambriabike.com/Shimano-BR-R650-Road-Brake-Caliper-Silver-Rear.asp) can't easily be used? Help me to understand.


it would be easiest if you could find and examine the brake mounting on a newer road bike that uses modern 'dual pivot' brakes, and compare this with the 'side pull' brakes you have. the mounting bolt on the brake caliber assembly on the newer brakes is much shorter, and doesn't go all the way through the fork crown (in front) or brake bridge (in the rear), and instead of a conventional nut and washer holding the brake on like you have, the new ones use a recessed nut thing that disappears completely into the hole....

...ah.. Sheldon Brown to the rescue. again.
http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#recessed

explains it all. and its worse now, a couple years ago I flat out couldn't find ANY new brake calibers suitable for traditional mounting.

I appreciate your advice. To be direct, I have a soft spot in my heart for this bike. Stupid, maybe, but that is my problem..........

I totally understand.
I've stuck a ridiculous amount of money in to my late younger brothers 74? Takara 10 speed road bike.
It's now a 27 speed FB road bike/hybrid/commuter that is used by my best friends son.
It's not pretty, with the original bright red paint being more of a primer red color now, but it's still on the road.
I'd like to think he is pleased.

To be direct, I have a soft spot in my heart for this bike. Stupid, maybe, but that is my problem.

It's the same "problem" that keeps me riding a bike built in 1956 simply because my family has owned it from new!

As for the shifter issue, check out Retroshift http://retroshift.com/
(http://retroshift.com/)
The proprietary shifter bosses would be an issue in that the DT shifters you have wouldn't fit on the Retroshift levers, but those levers probably cost less than you'd pay for the brifters alone these days, so it might be worth seeking out a set of shifters that fit them, seeing as that would probably be cheaper than getting hold of the Shimano indexed 28-13 7-speed freewheel that you'd need to work with the brifters....

your old bike, as a 7 speed, it probably has 125mm between the rear dropouts (aka the nut-to-nut width of the rear axle). anything new will be 130mm. you'll need to 'spread' the rear triangles of the bike about 5mm. if its steel, this isn't hard at all, if its aluminum or whatever, forgetit.


Many of us have jammed a 130mm wheel in our old Cannondales. No big deal. Just don't "cold set" it (permanently bend to 130mm)

Here's a 100+ page thread about upgrading old frames to modern drivetrains:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/361558-retro-roadies-old-frames-with-STI-s-or-Ergos

It's the same "problem" that keeps me riding a bike built in 1956 simply because my family has owned it from new!

As for the shifter issue, check out Retroshift http://retroshift.com/
(http://retroshift.com/)
The proprietary shifter bosses would be an issue in that the DT shifters you have wouldn't fit on the Retroshift levers, but those levers probably cost less than you'd pay for the brifters alone these days, so it might be worth seeking out a set of shifters that fit them, seeing as that would probably be cheaper than getting hold of the Shimano indexed 28-13 7-speed freewheel that you'd need to work with the brifters....

See, this is why I asked. You smart people know all the angles, new products, and so forth. Awesome collective and individual experience, wisdom, insight. A person just can't go wrong here.

IMHO 7 or 8 speeds are perfect. They still use a "normal" width chain and the parts are so much cheaper. Most of my bikes are 8 speed now because it's too hard to find good 7S shifters (and to an extent cassettes). RDs are easy to find, FDs can be a bit tricker but you just need to get an older one or compromise with a 9S unit. Cranks are fine, you can use a new crank with older rings.

To me, 9/10/11S is just unneeded expense and shortened drivetrain life. I see no benefit. 7 and 8 speed rears give me all the range I need with plenty of steps in between.



Sorry to veer off topic, but this isn't true. Dura Ace has been around since 1973. In the mid 70s, 600 wasn't all that great and was found on some pretty low end bikes.

Personally, I like 7 sp too. But shifters, quality that is, are the hard part to source. While chains might seem to be weaker I'm not sure if they really are. MTBs have hung onto 9 sp as standard way longer than the road bike crowd. They seem to get pretty good life from their chains under much harder conditions.

Personally, I like 7 sp too. But shifters, quality that is, are the hard part to source. While chains might seem to be weaker I'm not sure if they really are. MTBs have hung onto 9 sp as standard way longer than the road bike crowd. They seem to get pretty good life from their chains under much harder conditions.


I think the weak spot on 10 speeds is the thinner sprockets. 9 speed teeth are nearly the same thickness as 7/8 speed teeth, and the 9 speed chain is only a little bit narrower.

ZTP, Availability maybe the determining factor for how many cogs you stuff into the freehub. I'm in favor of 8S simply because I have spare cassettes and can rob from other bikes to dial in what's needed for a particular ride. That said I'm going to convert one to 9S just because I have a D-A Ti cassette that will go onto my least used bike.

As for cost the 8S is, on average, the least expensive and 10S will drop once 10+ cassettes come out.

Brad

8 speed stuff is no longer available new and bike shops are running out of any stock of used or new parts they once had. 9 speed is headed that way. Shimano 10 speed has shifting issues on both the older shifters and on the new aero shifters. SRAM 10 speed can be hard to shift. Campagnolo 10 speed is really expensive.

Unless there are serious issues with the components you're using now, just ride the bike like it is.

8 speed stuff is no longer available new and bike shops are running out of any stock of used or new parts they once had.

Shimano are still making 8-speed, 2300 hasn't moved over to 9 yet.

Campagnolo 10 speed is really expensive.


Common myth. Super record is expensive, but Veloce & Centaur function just as well for reasonable prices.
I did a couple of Campy budget conversions for about $350.

8 speed stuff is no longer available new

nope, comes on entry level bikes in the bike shop, here.. right now.

but if the buyer wants mid - premium priced race gear that may be true..

I looked at that Shimano 2300 stuff, and even others a few steps up from that. But I hate to buy shifters, go through the hassle of installing them, etc., only to find that the amount of cable pulled per shift is too low or whatever.

I'll start reading my way through the thread that Homebrew01 linked. I'd seen it before, but had forgotten. I'm in no rush.

One thing which occurred to me-- this may be loopy-- how hard would it be to build a set of 27" wheels with a 130mm freehub? In some ways, that might be the best of both worlds. I get to keep on using the fat 27x1-1/4 Gatorskins which I have come to appreciate so much, and I could get the shifters up on the bars where I'd like them to be. It would be, perhaps, the most expensive solution, but there would be some great learning along the way, I think.

There's a very limited selection of new 27" rims. Only decent one is the SunRingle CR18, available in 32 or 36H. Velocity lists one or two on their old website, but the various online sales catalogs don't seem to have it, and Velocity availability has been pretty sketchy since they moved operations a few months ago from .au to .fl.us. The only other rim I've found listed is a single wall Alex, which I'd avoid entirely.

(If anyone has any other intel on this, feel free to share).


anyways, once you have the rims and a hub, then its the same as building any other wheel. be sure the rim and hub have the same spoke count (I recommend 36H, easier to true, easier to build, more foregiving), and then figure out what length spokes you need using the standard wheel builder calculators, or order it all through a bike shop that does wheel building and let them worry about the spokes (either DT or Wheelsmith spokes would be excellent, anything less is, IMHO, not worth the bother).

But I hate to buy shifters, go through the hassle of installing them, etc., only to find that the amount of cable pulled per shift is too low or whatever.


Someone on here will know which shifters will be compatible. Friction shifters mounted to those Retroshift levers I linked to will be compatible with any system, so you'd have no need to build a new wheel.

As for building up a wheel with a freehub on it, wheelbuilding isn't particularly difficult.

Zippy, what derailleurs does this bike have, and how many gears? you can generally use 8 speed SiS thumb shifters with any 7-8 speed system, if its 7 speed, adjust the cable length so you are on the biggest rear cog when there's 1 click to go on the shifter, and the derailleur's low gear stop will prevent you from going into that last gear. or, you can use friction shifters, they work quite adequately with 7 speeds, although I find them a bit fussy with 8 speeds. friction works great with any front derailleurs, double or triple.

my son has a vintage '10 speed' that came with downtube shifters, he converted to bar end, and the bar end shifters were convertible to indexed or friction... he wasn't able to get the index shifting sorted out right and left them in friction, some day he'll bring the bike home from college and I'll fix it and show him how to adjust SiS...

Another option, is to use a 7speed freehub -yes, they still exist, so you can avoid respacing the frame
then use a trunkated cassette on it.
So, use the brifters you want, with the associated cog spacing, but some cogs removed so they fit onto the narrow hub

Also, know that for more selection of brifters, there are some 'unofficial' combinations of campagnolo and shimano parts that will work together -lookup 'shimergo'

One of my bikes uses both options:
shimano 7speed freehub body
with 7 out of 8 cogs from an 8speed shimano cassette
shimano rear derailer
campagnolo 10speed ergopower brifter
works great


campy10 shifters, happen to pull the correct cable for a shimano 8 drivetrain

I think they do, but I have not tried yet. I will try, because I'm curious.

The easiest and most reliable way to know exactly what (if any) modifications will be necessary is to borrow a 700c wheelset and give it a trial fit.

........One thing which occurred to me-- this may be loopy-- how hard would it be to build a set of 27" wheels with a 130mm freehub? In some ways, that might be the best of both worlds. I get to keep on using the fat 27x1-1/4 Gatorskins which I have come to appreciate so much, and I could get the shifters up on the bars where I'd like them to be. It would be, perhaps, the most expensive solution, but there would be some great learning along the way, I think.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/864061-Using-27-quot-wheels-with-105-8-speed-cassete-or-changing-to-700c
Post 18

Campagnolo 10 speed is really expensive.


Campagnolo doesn't sell anything really inexpensive to the retail market like Shimano Tiagra and doesn't have steep OEM discounts which let you get a complete bike (with off-brand crank and brakes) for the price of a group, although otherwise you can spend the same money on Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo provided that you don't insist on buying your Japanese and Italian components from a US retailer.

Ribble group prices -
Xenon / Veloce $420
Veloce $460
Centaur $600
Athena (11) $728

105 $485
Ultegra $700

Apex $473
Rival $575
Force $855

While prices don't match up for the "third highest" group or whatever, that's not relevant because what you get doesn't line up according to group rank. Record and Super Record are essentially Chorus plus extra titanium which you'd need to source from the after market if you started with Dura Ace.

For the 2010 model year all the Campagnolo Ultrashift levers from Veloce through Super Record were identical except

- Centaur and below had a 10 speed index cam in the right lever
- Centaur Carbon plus Chorus and beyond 11 speed groups had carbon brake blades which saved 21g a pair
- Super Record had lighter rear ratchets which saved 7g a pair

with even the least expensive lighter than Shimano Dura-ace.

Record did give you some sexy cut-outs in the brake blades (which did not save weight - Record and Chorus levers were still the same 337g/pair), Super Record increased their count to 3, and the "11" was red on the best shifters although those aren't functional differences.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/864061-Using-27-quot-wheels-with-105-8-speed-cassete-or-changing-to-700c
Post 18

Hey, thanks for that. Have you written about doing your first wheel build with significant detail in another thread? I saw this (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/864285-Building-my-first-wheel), doesn't look too hard. I'm not into the hard stuff, though, so I'd probably go for beer instead.

I have a friend who is a professional bike mechanic, and so I could get advice from him, and also from the mechanic at my LBS.