Masters Racing (All Disciplines) - gearing up...

As we're all aware, you can spend a lot of money on components...

Theoretically, the more you spend the better / lighter / sexier your gear gets.

However, in investigating N+1, I'm seeing that there's quite a bit of variance out there.

So, I'm interested in everyone's collective experience with fitting out bikes focused on road racing.

I'd love to see what people use / upgrade to and why, or alternatively find out that there are clear 'best components'
that everyone has selected.

Top of my list today is pedals. I've been riding SPD pedals, but having failure issues. I'm thinking of moving to speedplays
as seeming to be in a good spot for price / weight, so I'd love to hear if there others' thoughts on this.

thanks,

Steve

I rode Speedplays. I didn't like them. The weight is a bit hidden in that the cleat is fairly heavy. They are easily gummed up if you have to step in dirt. I went to Look Keo pedals for the wider platform and never looked back.

The downside to the Look pedals is that the cleat does get worn if you walk in them without covers.

For bike set up...I usually have two race bikes (non TT) in the stable. One is set up stiffer (bars and stem) and with a 130 BCD crank. The other is set up lighter with a 110 for climbing. I like to have the ergonomics and contact points the same on both bikes (saddles/bars/pedals/crank arm length). Wheels get swapped in and out according to course. The bars are different models but the same bends.

I'm in the process of swapping over to all Ui or Di shifting. While there's a small weight penalty over SRAM, what you gain in lowered maintenance and bad shifts because of mung on cables is worth it (for me).

So much of this stuff becomes personal...

I use Look pedals on my road and track bikes and Egg Beaters on the cross, mtb and fixie.

I always seem to make the purchases of Looks from xxcycle at the best prices.

http://www.xxcycle.com/pedal-keo-2-max-black-2012,,en.php

I'm a big fan of the Look Keo Blade: lighter, simpler, and easier (for me) to click into. I always have a set of cleats around, because they seem to wear out fairly quickly.

Pretty sure any bike I put together from now on will have electronic shifting. Almost went that way with my current road bike.

I have standardized on Shimano SPD SL Dura Ace carbon pedals and I like the Specialized S Works shoes with custom orthotics.

thanks all... REI carries the low end (Keo plus) pedals for $89, so I can grab them with no shipping
and get a rebate as well...

Sounds like most are using one style... Since I'm a ways away from having multiple road / racing bikes I guess there's no rush though.

There's me....no different, I use Look KeO, and just love them. Ex mentioned the cleats getting worn out, and they do. Be prepared to replace a set of cleats once a year.

I use Ultegra on one bike and Campy Chorus on the other. The TT bike has a mish-mash of componentry. I prefer the Chorus over the Ultegra, it shifts quicker and seems to shift more positively, plus I like the gear ratios on the Campy cassette better.

Your mileage may vary!

Steve - You just opened a family-sized can of worms. ;)

I'll join the chorus for Look Kéo pedals. I've got Kéo Classics on four bikes. As mentioned above, get cleat covers with these. If you don't mind getting them online, you can get them far cheaper from UK stores than from your LBS or US-based stores. For instance, those Kéo Plus pedals you're looking at go for $43.40 plus shipping (~$7 by my experience) from Ribble. Shipping to LA takes about a week; to the Left Coast it may be a day or two more.

As for the rest...are you looking at upgrading the Fuji, or buying/putting together another bike? If the former, some stuff may not need upgrading; if the latter, you can get some great deals right now on 2012 stuff (this applies to upgrading the Fuji as well).

My two main bikes have Dura Ace shifters and rear derailleurs (7800 on the Allez and 7900 on the Look) and Ultegra brakes (6600 on the Allez and 6700 on the Look). Both the Allez and the Look were bought as framesets rather than complete bikes, though that happened by coincidence rather than by design. I'm currently building my N+1 from parts I have laying around, so it's going to be a real mutt. :)

I also buy the Keo replacement cleats with the grippers that makes walking a little safer. Regarding cleat wear. I think the business end of the cleats are the slots in the cleat between the shoe and pedal and is not effected by some wear on the outside. A lot of wear on the outside could compromise the integrity of the cleat. I watch for wear on the outside of the cleat where the pedal platform hits the cleat face. Wear in the cleat at that location will allow the foot to move sideways and at high torque could release.

That's my take, your results may differ.

I have also standardized on SRAM red components and Quarq power meters. I recently put on a long cage rear der on my R5 when I broke my old one. I plan on using lower gears on my Mount Ventoux climb in July. It has a 4 mile section of 10% grade. According to my simulator, it will take 2 hours to climb the entire mountain at 200 watts at my current weight. I have raced up Sierra Road which averages 9.7% grade and 3.7 miles and it is a tough climb. So I am wimping out and going for easy gears.

Steve - You just opened a family-sized can of worms. ;)

As for the rest...are you looking at upgrading the Fuji, or buying/putting together another bike? If the former, some stuff may not need upgrading; if the latter, you can get some great deals right now on 2012 stuff (this applies to upgrading the Fuji as well).
:)

Actually, specific choices aside, what I'm noticing in everyone's reply's is that you all are running with at or near the top end gear.

The Fuji is a loaner, and its a POS. I'm glad I can't upgrade it, as I would start by throwing everything but the wheels away. Having said that, its amazingly quicker than the Trek for reasons that I can't quite quantify - perhaps part of it is frame stiffness, and it could just be a lot more aerodynamic. Its NOT that much lighter, weighing in at a whopping 22 lbs. Its got mostly 105 components, with a funky 50/38/30 triple crank (well, its more like a 50/38/0 crank, as it tends to miss the small ring a lot) and a 12-25 cassette... I'll be happy to un-loan it.

What I am doing is having a custom bike built, and trying to get my head around all the component choices before I go in to talk with the builder. Plus, there are some things that I'll what to standardize on, pedals being the first obvious choice.

Eventually I'll have the new bike, set up (at least initially) for longer rides and climbing, with the Trek getting some re-furbishing so that it can be my bad weather bike. I was thinking of going with SRAM Force for the groupset for the new bike for now, thinking that I could hand that down to the Trek when I felt I could justify the upgrade - but one consideration there is whether or not I get the new frame built 'electronic ready' with the wiring and battery mounts and such... it sure does add a lot to the price though.

A couple of last thoughts: to me it makes a lot of sense to standardize on components to some extent, as you could then swap parts in an emergency, plus you'd have the consistent feel - are there other thoughts about why / why not to standardize?

And finally, tying back in to what Ex said in his reply - how much flexibility should I attempt to build in to this first 'competitive' bike - for example, obviously?, it wouldn't make sense to use a road bike on the track, but could you take a road bike on a cyclo-cross course, or would that be impractical (e.g. just swap out to cross wheels / tires).

As usual, thanks for all the well thought out answers.

Steve

I have also standardized on SRAM red components and Quarq power meters. I recently put on a long cage rear der on my R5 when I broke my old one. I plan on using lower gears on my Mount Ventoux climb in July. It has a 4 mile section of 10% grade. According to my simulator, it will take 2 hours to climb the entire mountain at 200 watts at my current weight. I have raced up Sierra Road which averages 9.7% grade and 3.7 miles and it is a tough climb. So I am wimping out and going for easy gears.

Will you be using the sram wi-fli der? and 11-32 or 12-32 cassette, or will you run the shimano ?12-30? that I think you've mentioned elsewhere, and what crankset?

I've been looking at that, but am leaning towards a 11-28 cassette with a 50/34 compact crank - the 12-32 or 11-32 gives a nice bailout but I'm finding that I can get up the hills
well enough with the 30/25 on the fuji (which is 31.5 gear inches), so on a lighter bike, with a lighter engine, 34/28 (32.8 gi) should work just fine. Plus I'm not planning on climbing Ventoux anytime soon :)

Is anyone beside Ex running electronic shifting? If so, how's that working for you?

Steve, I'm a girl, so I think differently than the fellas do, but I AM mechanical. I'm on speaking terms with turbine engines. :twitchy: If I could afford it, I'd standardize all of my bikes to Campy. I just like the way it works. That's IMHO. There's nothing wrong with Shimano; Ultegra and Dura-Ace are hard to fault. 105 is functionally pretty dern good, too, but it is heavier. SRAM I'm not familiar with, I have heard things about it, but I have no first hand experience with it. My point is that it's all good stuff, it comes down to personal preference.

This is a bit of a sidestep, but I've found (since I started training with structure) that I climb just as mediocre with a 13-26 (or 11-25) cassette (with a standard chainring) as I do with a 12 - 28 cassette (paired with a compact chainring set). I'm thinking of putting a 11-25 cassette on the Look with the compact and riding that. I might even try standard rings on it. Jest sayin.

The big question is: Why are you going custom? I'm 6'6" and all legs. My first road bike was custom, because I thought it was the only way to get a good fit. Turns out not to be true. For most people, I think custom frames are just not needed. They can be nice, but chances are a proper fit can be had without spending the extra bucks.

pedals: im a speedplay L/A guy for my road bike. I like them alot

as racer ex said, they do clog up easily if your walking in mud or gravel.

My mtb has time atac's that use a spd cleat and have room for mud shedding.
291678

I've been looking at that, but am leaning towards a 11-28 cassette with a 50/34 compact crank - the 12-32 or 11-32 gives a nice bailout but I'm finding that I can get up the hills
well enough with the 30/25 on the fuji (which is 31.5 gear inches), so on a lighter bike, with a lighter engine, 34/28 (32.8 gi) should work just fine. Plus I'm not planning on climbing Ventoux anytime soon :)

Steve - Cassette choice is another personal thing, so I'll start my comment with a big YMMV.

I feel that unless you really need that 11t cog, don't get a cassette with one. It's usually substituted for a more useable one like a 16t. Where I live, there's not much need for a wide range cassette, but I've got some anyway - my two main bikes have 12-27s on them. My next cassette will be a 12-23, and I'll be using that most of the year for most of my riding. It's hillier where you live, so a wide range cassette would be more useful; I'd go with a 12-27 or a 12-28. I think current Shimano rear derailleurs will handle up to 30t cogs. I bought a Tiagra 4600 RD specifically for that reason, though I don't use it now. (It's going on my mutt build.)

Most of my bikes have Shimano drivetrains, with the exception of my older steel Bianchi with Campy. They work fine. I don't have experience with SRAM.

This is a bit of a sidestep, but I've found (since I started training with structure) that I climb just as mediocre with a 13-26 (or 11-25) cassette (with a standard chainring) as I do with a 12 - 28 cassette (paired with a compact chainring set). I'm thinking of putting a 11-25 cassette on the Look with the compact and riding that. I might even try standard rings on it. Jest sayin.

I find this to be quite impressive, and I know you've got some decent hills to climb... I've made some progress in this regard as well, but I'm not there yet... I still get to the point where I have to bail out to something low on the longer climbs.

The big question is: Why are you going custom? I'm 6'6" and all legs. My first road bike was custom, because I thought it was the only way to get a good fit. Turns out not to be true. For most people, I think custom frames are just not needed. They can be nice, but chances are a proper fit can be had without spending the extra bucks.

Its not really fit motivated (although my expectations are that it will fit well, of course), but rather 'build' motivated - I'm not in a position yet to buy the frame and assemble the rest myself. This approach looks like it'll give me the input / control over the component selection that I wouldn't have getting something off-the-shelf.

Steve - Cassette choice is another personal thing, so I'll start my comment with a big YMMV.

I feel that unless you really need that 11t cog, don't get a cassette with one. It's usually substituted for a more useable one like a 16t. Where I live, there's not much need for a wide range cassette, but I've got some anyway - my two main bikes have 12-27s on them. My next cassette will be a 12-23, and I'll be using that most of the year for most of my riding. It's hillier where you live, so a wide range cassette would be more useful; I'd go with a 12-27 or a 12-28. I think current Shimano rear derailleurs will handle up to 30t cogs. I bought a Tiagra 4600 RD specifically for that reason, though I don't use it now. (It's going on my mutt build.)

Most of my bikes have Shimano drivetrains, with the exception of my older steel Bianchi with Campy. They work fine. I don't have experience with SRAM.

Thanks - my thinking has been all over the map on this - do you run a standard crankset with that? or compact? (50 x 11 being about the same as 53 x 12) Or do you find you just
don't need it (I guess the alternative is to just up the cadence?)

Its not really fit motivated (although my expectations are that it will fit well, of course), but rather 'build' motivated - I'm not in a position yet to buy the frame and assemble the rest myself. This approach looks like it'll give me the input / control over the component selection that I wouldn't have getting something off-the-shelf.Are you having the frame built from scratch, or buying a production frame and equipping it? If the latter, you'd still have control over which components go on the frame. I agree with AZT - I'd go with a production frame unless your body doesn't fit one.

Thanks - my thinking has been all over the map on this - do you run a standard crankset with that? or compact? (50 x 11 being about the same as 53 x 12) Or do you find you just
don't need it (I guess the alternative is to just up the cadence?)I've currently got compacts on my two main bikes, but the mutt build will have a 52/39 Shimano 105 crankset. If I decide it's a good idea, I'll just switch out the chainrings on one or both of the other bikes to 52/36.

Will you be using the sram wi-fli der? and 11-32 or 12-32 cassette, or will you run the shimano ?12-30? that I think you've mentioned elsewhere, and what crankset?

I've been looking at that, but am leaning towards a 11-28 cassette with a 50/34 compact crank - the 12-32 or 11-32 gives a nice bailout but I'm finding that I can get up the hills
well enough with the 30/25 on the fuji (which is 31.5 gear inches), so on a lighter bike, with a lighter engine, 34/28 (32.8 gi) should work just fine. Plus I'm not planning on climbing Ventoux anytime soon :)

Is anyone beside Ex running electronic shifting? If so, how's that working for you?

For racing, I use a 50/34 and typically climb in an 34/23 or 34/21. I am not competitive at lower gears. IMO, this is the fallacy of gearing and racing. One has to be competitive climbing and low gearing is not competitive unless you spin fast. Hill climb TTs and training are different. I use lower gears to spin faster.

The 53/39 is a great setup for elite 1/2 racers. They need the 53/11 for the slight downhills and have enough power to climb in a 39/23. 50/34 is perfect for the rest of us especially if the local terrain is hilly. However, this is somewhat personal preference and to an extent the coaches' preference. My Russian coaches wanted all except the elite p/1/2s in compact doubles. They wanted more spin.

I've currently got compacts on my two main bikes, but the mutt build will have a 52/39 Shimano 105 crankset. If I decide it's a good idea, I'll just switch out the chainrings on one or both of the other bikes to 52/36.

At one point I was thinking that 52/36 with a 11/12-32 sram cassette might make sense as well although now I'm leaning toward 50/34 11/12-28 - doing a lot of climbing in the mean time to convince myself that I won't be crying for the smaller gear.

As for the build, I got started down this path from looking at a Rodriguez steel frame (I have 3 kids in Seattle), but I decided buying a bike long distance wasn't a good idea for me.
So I found a guy in Santa Cruz that builds custom steel frames that I'm committed to working with.

I was also looking at the customization you can do with a Trek Domane frame trekbikes.com/projectone - but that got out of control price wise very quickly.

The 53/39 is a great setup for elite 1/2 racers. They need the 53/11 for the slight downhills and have enough power to climb in a 39/23. 50/34 is perfect for the rest of us especially if the local terrain is hilly. However, this is somewhat personal preference and to an extent the coaches' preference. My Russian coaches wanted all except the elite p/1/2s in compact doubles. They wanted more spin.

Or to summarize, HTFU and spin.

Or to summarize, HTFU and spin.

If you can! I can't, not while climbing. Taller gearing works just fine for me.

Are you having the frame built from scratch, or buying a production frame and equipping it? If the latter, you'd still have control over which components go on the frame. I agree with AZT - I'd go with a production frame unless your body doesn't fit one.

Expanding on this somewhat... I'm going with a from scratch build because of material choice, build flexibility, and cost - While I can afford a ridiculously expensive bike, I can't yet justify it to myself.

Just be aware that, from a racing standpoint, you are sacrificing quite a bit by going with steel over carbon...

The division is over Big External Cleats, that you cannot walk on Long, and have it Damaged.

Racing You will stop and take off your shoes , right after then

Vs the recessed cleat that you can. touring and commuting may favor that,..

Time ATAC SPuD, are supported by QBP stocking small replacement parts..

Frame builders :
Down there you have Bernie Mikkelson building frames , and Brent Steelman
on the other side of the bay, and Bruce Gordon In Petaluma , etc.

I use a 53/39, with cassette's ranging from 11-28 to 12-23. Just switched to 11-25 from 12-25 for my default racing setup. I rarely need more than a 39-23 combo, but there are a couple of climbs where I need the 25, and one where I need the 28 and still just barely make it. But none of our races put me into anything bigger than a 25, and if I'm not on top of that, I'm out of the race. I am frequently in the 53-11, and often spin that out: our Saturday team ride includes a 40+ downhill. We don't have a lot of true "cols" here, but there are a lot of gentler climbs, and a typical Saturday ride will have 3-4K of elevation gain. 50/34 has me shifting the rings way too much: my sweet spot straddles the two rings.

Just be aware that, from a racing standpoint, you are sacrificing quite a bit by going with steel over carbon...

If I can get to the point where that is the differentiating factor in my racing, I'll be more than happy to N+1.

I use a 53/39, with cassette's ranging from 11-28 to 12-23. Just switched to 11-25 from 12-25 for my default racing setup. I rarely need more than a 39-23 combo, but there are a couple of climbs where I need the 25, and one where I need the 28 and still just barely make it. But none of our races put me into anything bigger than a 25, and if I'm not on top of that, I'm out of the race. I am frequently in the 53-11, and often spin that out: our Saturday team ride includes a 40+ downhill. We don't have a lot of true "cols" here, but there are a lot of gentler climbs, and a typical Saturday ride will have 3-4K of elevation gain. 50/34 has me shifting the rings way too much: my sweet spot straddles the two rings.

Isn't that terrain / race dependent? (although that has been one of the surprises for me on the Fuji - I'm spending alot more time on the big ring than I used to).

Am I correct in asserting that pinning your sweet spot down is pretty crucial and that it will move up with fitness? It certainly has been the case for me so far.

I'm leaning toward 50/34 11/12-28 - doing a lot of climbing in the mean time to convince myself that I won't be crying for the smaller gear.


That's what I run on my training and climbing bikes, only with an 11/27 in the back.

That's what I run on my training and climbing bikes, only with an 11/27 in the back.

This and AZT's post raise the question (heading off topic...) of gear selections - when racing do you avoid cross-chaining or not?

This and AZT's post raise the question (heading off topic...) of gear selections - when racing do you avoid cross-chaining or not?

Most of the time yes. Sometimes no if I know I'm going to run out of gear on the small ring.

And this is another beauty of electric shifting...the front derailleurs automatically adjust so there's no rub.

Most of the time yes. Sometimes no if I know I'm going to run out of gear on the small ring.

And this is another beauty of electric shifting...the front derailleurs automatically adjust so there's no rub.

So... (just trying to get my head around this), the difference between 12-25 and 12-28 (using SRAM cassettes, for example) is just in the 3 biggest sprockets,
so typically only climbing? e.g.: 34x21/23/25 vs 34x22/25/28? Or will you run with the 50x21 or 50x22 or even 50x23 or 50x25 as needed?

Hi Esteban58, I'll weigh in on several of your topics. I'm kind of surprised to see so many Look users here. Just by observation, I'd say about 50% of my club members use Speedplay. I have used Look since they succeeded in marketing the clipless pedal in the 1980s. I have a love-hate relationship with Kéo pedals. I like how they feel under my foot and I like their light weight, however, I continue to have problems engaging them. At this point I know my problems are as much mental as physical but Tuesday's ride was especially bad. My start line paranoia about clipping in needs to get better this year, not worse.

Are you familiar with the term 'money-pit?' That's apt for bike racing. Equipment is just a part of it. The bike racing part of my stable is:


A road bike for training and mid-week training races (medium weight, built for reliability)
A road bike for "real" races (light weight)
A TT bike
A track bike (mostly for training and occasional races)


I understand your stated reasons for buying a custom frame but as AzTR mentioned you can get more performance (primarily weight and stiffness) out of a stock frame for the same price. Buy a stock frameset and put whatever you want on it. That's what I almost always do. All of my race bikes are built up from buying bare frames, except the Shiv TT bike which is only sold as a "module." Often there are great deals on complete bikes but as you said, I generally want more flexibility in deciding what I want on a bike --especially the contact points. As Racer Ex mentioned, I too have the same contact points (saddle, pedals, handlebars, and shifters) on my road bikes. My track bike has the same pedals and saddle (though your mileage will really vary on track bike saddles) and my TT bike has the same pedals.

All of the road oriented bikes have Campagnolo Record-10 components. I have a number of wheelsets and cassettes and I don't want to have to think about which ones work with which bike. I change cassettes like most people change underwear :D as I want to have the most appropriate gearing for the kind of race or training ride that I'm doing. Regarding gearing and races, to a degree you need to be strong enough to climb in higher gears as Hermes mentions. For most long climbs in road races, if you are in something smaller than a 39 X 25 you'll get dropped anyway. Yes, I've been passed by some guys who can spin a small gear like crazy but they are the exception (and you might be too). Check speed vs cadence for various gear inches. Having seen Racer Ex climb, I wonder when he uses a 34 X 27?

Also, for criteriums you'll want something like a 21 or 23 max cog. Anything larger is just dead weight since you'll never use it. If a course has a short, steep hill then having a 23 cog will let you sprint up the hill in a 53 X 21. If the course is flat then a standard 11-21 is best. Of course you'll only use a few of those gears in a flat crit.

Shifting technique in a races is usually stay in one chainring until you run out gears then shift to the other chainring. Folks that do heavy touring will try to make sure that they don't have gear overlap. Racers mostly need to worry about the lowest and highest gears that they'll need. Cross-chaining is for emergencies, not desired but if absolutely needed then do it.

Does electronic shifting allow cross-chaining?

...snip...

Are you familiar with the term 'money-pit?' That's apt for bike racing. Equipment is just a part of it. The bike racing part of my stable is:


A road bike for training and mid-week training races (medium weight, built for reliability)
A road bike for "real" races (light weight)
A TT bike
A track bike (mostly for training and occasional races)


... snip ...



Lots of thoughtful info - thanks.

I'm just filling in slot 1 right now (training bike, built for reliability) but I'm also wanting it to be useful long term for longer rides.

The steel framemakers union claim that they can make a bike as light and stiff as any carbon frame. I'm not in a position to argue this either way, but read the R&E Cycles manifesto
if you're interested.

And, at this point I'm committed to the build, so I guess I'll learn to post questions like this earlier in the future :)

On the pedals, at this point (given pricing, etc.) I think I'll give the Look pedals a try - if that doesn't work out, Speedplay will be the next stop - it sounds like one of the reasons there are so many choices is that there is a broad spectrum of needs. Balkanization comes to mind.

As for Campagnolo - any particular reason for going there? and do you use their wireless gear?

thanks,

Steve

I wonder when Ex needs that 34 at all... but the guys using compacts here tend to spend a fair amount of time at the track, developing that fast cadence. I climb at 80-100, and am rarely above 110.

I wonder when Ex needs that 34 at all... but the guys using compacts here tend to spend a fair amount of time at the track, developing that fast cadence. I climb at 80-100, and am rarely above 110.

He pulled away from me on the steep section of Hamilton I didn't have a chance to see what ring or cog he was in. Big and small would be my guess.

I climb at 60. Never higher.

Steve - I have two steel bikes, and I dearly love them, but I won't ride them in the rain. Water gets inside the frame tubes and causes rust unless you thoroughly drain it immediately after the ride. Of course, if the guy you're working with is comfortable with stainless, that would eliminate much (not all) of that worry. Make sure he coats the insides with Framesaver - there's a good chance he does this anyway.

If you can afford it, I'd consider also getting an aluminum frame bike with a mid-level group like 105. Aluminum bikes are pretty much impervious to climate-induced problems, though the tubes don't take well to direct impacts. You don't need an über-cool wheelset for these, just something decent. Getting something that takes fenders would be a plus.

Reasons for Campy: Mostly, it has to do with the way the hoods fit your hands - many folks think they're the most comfortable shifters to ride on the hoods. They function extremely well, too. I have an older eight speed setup, and I like the way it shifts from the drops better than I do Shimano.

Steve - I have two steel bikes, and I dearly love them, but I won't ride them in the rain. Water gets inside the frame tubes and causes rust unless you thoroughly drain it immediately after the ride. Of course, if the guy you're working with is comfortable with stainless, that would eliminate much (not all) of that worry. Make sure he coats the insides with Framesaver - there's a good chance he does this anyway.

If you can afford it, I'd consider also getting an aluminum frame bike with a mid-level group like 105. Aluminum bikes are pretty much impervious to climate-induced problems, though the tubes don't take well to direct impacts. You don't need an über-cool wheelset for these, just something decent. Getting something that takes fenders would be a plus.

Reasons for Campy: Mostly, it has to do with the way the hoods fit your hands - many folks think they're the most comfortable shifters to ride on the hoods. They function extremely well, too. I have an older eight speed setup, and I like the way it shifts from the drops better than I do Shimano.

Thanks Chuck. I do have an aluminum bike... my hybrid - its a great training bike (pushing that 30-ish pounds up hill is a real workout).

One issue I'm definitely facing is lack of experience with the components - but its not like you can just go in and buy one of each to try them out.

Lots of thoughtful info - thanks.

I'm just filling in slot 1 right now (training bike, built for reliability) but I'm also wanting it to be useful long term for longer rides.

The steel framemakers union claim that they can make a bike as light and stiff as any carbon frame. I'm not in a position to argue this either way, but read the R&E Cycles manifesto
if you're interested.

And, at this point I'm committed to the build, so I guess I'll learn to post questions like this earlier in the future :)

On the pedals, at this point (given pricing, etc.) I think I'll give the Look pedals a try - if that doesn't work out, Speedplay will be the next stop - it sounds like one of the reasons there are so many choices is that there is a broad spectrum of needs. Balkanization comes to mind.

As for Campagnolo - any particular reason for going there? and do you use their wireless gear?

thanks,

Steve

If someone makes a sub 900 gram steel frame, I haven't seen it. Since steel has isotropic material properties (roughly the same strength in all directions) you can't optimize frame stiffness as you can with multi-directional carbon layups. Not saying that you can't ride fast on a steel bike -- a lot of people can ride steel bikes faster than I can ride a carbon bike -- it's just that for racing, you can optimize frame design better with carbon. Regardless, a custom steel frame should be a joy to ride. I spent over 20 years racing on steel frames and less than 10 years on carbon frames. Had some aluminum and titanium frames in between. I've liked most of them. I like carbon better.

A couple of my reasons for Campagnolo instead of Shimano are no longer valid. First was the exposed shift cables instead of cables under the handlebar tape. New Shimano levers don't have exposed shift cables. I also didn't like the shape of the original levers and several generations of descendants. The current levers feel a lot better to me. YMMV.

Next, I didn't like the feel or the idea of brake levers serving two purposes, braking and shifting. I've had extended test rides and rentals of Shimano bikes (about 5 days total) and I didn't like the feel of the brake levers. Also, as smooth and light as Shimano shifting is, I like the more "purposeful" feel of Campy shifting. I also like the quick release for the brakes being built into the brake lever instead of the brake caliper. On the rare occasions when I break a spoke you don't diminish braking power when you open the quick release on the brake lever as you do when it's on the brake caliper. All of these still exist in Shimano but obviously many people are fine with this.

It comes down to a lot of personal taste. I'm still using 10-speed Campagnolo because I like it and because of my investment in cassettes and wheels and the number of bikes that I would have to outfit with new drivetrains. I'm not convinced that 11 is one better than 10 either. ;) I am seriously considering SRAM when my components start wearing out but that is still a few years away and who knows what the component landscape will look like by then.

Electronic shifting? Maybe, but definitely not before I wear out what I have. I'd definitely have to look at cost of electronic vs mechanical when outfitting three bikes.

Thanks Chuck. I do have an aluminum bike... my hybrid - its a great training bike (pushing that 30-ish pounds up hill is a real workout).
Steve - I was referring to a standard road bike, rather than a hybrid. Few people choose one as a primary race bike nowadays, though one specific model - Cannondale's CAAD series, currently at CAAD10 - is still considered an excellent race bike, at a couple thousand dollars under a comparably equipped carbon bike, and Specialized almost came out with an S-Works (factory racing) version of the Allez this year. Jamis and BMC also offer aluminum racing-specific bikes, and almost all other companies offer aluminum road bikes. My mutt build is on a 2009 CAAD9 frameset, and I'd race it in a heartbeat.

I don't worry too much about ratio numbers. I do avoid cross chaining. If I need to shift down to the small ring or up to the big one, I will. If I can't/can rotate the ratio I have selected, I change up or down on the back. It's tactile, not a thought process, IMHO.

My thoughts on Campagnolo vs. Shimano. Cleave certainly said it well. I will add that the "purposeful" feel of a Campy shift has a reassuring nature to it, and the group does shift fast and positively. It also allows a finer degree of trimming than (Ultegra) Shimano seems to. I have grown to really appreciate the control layout of Campagnolo. Some would argue that you need to remove your hand from a drop to actuate an up shift (it's done with a thumb lever), but I'll argue that I have to with the Shimano up shift, too. The brake levers on Campy are brake levers only, and as Cleave said, the brakes have a wonderful feel, they really give good feedback, and they're quite powerful. And then there is the marvelous workmanship on the Campagnolo parts. They are crafted, not manufactured. They are beautiful to behold, much like aircraft parts. I really appreciate that!

The 53/39 is a great setup for elite 1/2 racers. They need the 53/11 for the slight downhills and have enough power to climb in a 39/23. 50/34 is perfect for the rest of us especially if the local terrain is hilly. However, this is somewhat personal preference and to an extent the coaches' preference. My Russian coaches wanted all except the elite p/1/2s in compact doubles. They wanted more spin.

Standards are supposed to be for the cool kids, while compacts are for noobs ;)

Your perspective is interesting - thanks. I like my compact, and agree that it provides the flexibility to simply change out cassettes to suit the ride. My daily rider has an 11/28, and in this hilly area, I use all of those gears - though I definitely miss the finer adjustments I'd get from a closer ration cassette.

Sorry to be late to this party, but there are variations on the compact theme. I never really liked the 50/34 setup I had, the drop to the small ring seemed too big and led to a lot of double ot treble shifting and often I'd feel I couldn't quite find the perfect gear. So I have moved to a 50/36. I find it much superior, giving me all the help I need in the hills with a similar "feel" to a standard setup.

I run a 12/25 on the back. There isn't much I can't get up in a 36/25, though there's a Vuelta Cat2 climb close to where I'm staying in Spain and to say I can spin up it would be an exaggeration.

As for pedals, I've never bothered to change from SPD SLs. They work for me.

I never really liked the 50/34 setup I had, the drop to the small ring seemed too big and led to a lot of double ot treble shifting and often I'd feel I couldn't quite find the perfect gear. So I have moved to a 50/36.

Somewhat agree... which is why if I only had one road bike, I'd be extremely drawn to the new Dura Ace 52/36. With the luxury of two road bikes, I am quite fond of 50/34 on my climbing bike. I am in 34x25 a LOT... not because there is really many steep climbs, but on the long climbing rides, I'm much better off spinning than grinding.


I feel that unless you really need that 11t cog, don't get a cassette with one. It's usually substituted for a more useable one like a 16t.

I'm the opposite. Both ends of the cassette are more important to me than the middle. That discussion is usually about the biggest cog needed, but the 11t is pretty critical, in my opinion, even for a non-sprinter like myself. a) when I'm on the compact, it usually means climbing... which usually means a descent... and on a 50t chainring, you will want every last gear inch in back you can get. b) on a standard, it is obviously pretty important in a finishing sprint or big descent, but even in fast paceline, with a tailwind or a slight downhill, I find myself in 11 enough that it is easily warrants sacrificing a middle cog.

I'm the opposite. Both ends of the cassette are more important to me than the middle. That discussion is usually about the biggest cog needed, but the 11t is pretty critical, in my opinion, even for a non-sprinter like myself. a) when I'm on the compact, it usually means climbing... which usually means a descent... and on a 50t chainring, you will want every last gear inch in back you can get. b) on a standard, it is obviously pretty important in a finishing sprint or big descent, but even in fast paceline, with a tailwind or a slight downhill, I find myself in 11 enough that it is easily warrants sacrificing a middle cog.

That's my thinking, Vance. I've discovered that I can climb with a standard 53-39 with a 13-26. By that twisted logic, I'm sure I can climb with a compact/11-25. I descend better than I climb, by a lot. I feel I'm playing to my strength by going the way you do.