Touring - How Many Spokes????

Have been doing some research and have a question for those who have "been There"

I am considering building up a bike for touring. I have been looking at Disc Brake wheelsets and am planning on 700C size. Are 36 Spoked wheels a requirement by most opinions or can a beefy set of 32’s be used say with DT-Swiss Competition 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes. This affects my choice of hubs between Shimano XT (in 36H) or Shimano XTR (32H)

Thanks in advance

The number of spokes depends on a number of things. How much do you weigh? How much equipment will you carry? What type of rims? What type of roads? How much safety factor do you require?

XT components are very nice. XTR components may be lighter, but they aren't any stronger than their XT counterparts.

IMO, XTR are not worth the price when used on a touring bike. I use XT on my 26 and 29 inch MTB.

Someone will say it so it might as well be me. I have never broken a spoke on a hand laced wheel and it is not for want of trying. I currently tour with 32f & 36r using Wheelsmith 2.0,1.7,2.0 spokes lace to Mavic 719 rims and Shimano 105 hubs (rear is 130mm wide). I have stopped carrying spare spokes save for one Kevlar fiber spoke. I spend a lot of loaded tour time on dirt Forest Service roads and even single track with that set up. My guess is you could ride the Himalaya Ridge Trail with XT hubs laced with 36 DT spokes.

Might crash and damage what you have, then you will get a machine built wheel to replace it,
which will be fine..

I managed to not damage my 48 spoke wheel. would have been a long time
sitting around waiting for a replacement.

I personally use 36H rims and wouldnt want less but hey its your wheels. My take on it is that if you can seriously consider xtr for a touring hub then you can afford to get your wheels fixed on the odd occasion that you go touring and "maybe" drop a spoke or need the wheel trued. I want my wheels as bullet proof as possible within a balance of weight/strength/price so am opting for very strong CX-Ray spokes and 36H Velocity Dyad rims to go with my IGH and dynamo hubs. If I was asked, I'd advice a minimum of 36 spokes for a loaded touring bike. Good luck with the decision.

Deaver, There are several levels of touring, which are roughly set by how much weight is to be carried and for how far the tour will be. The expedition level tourers can carry the most and it's prudent advice to suggest a minimum of 36 spokes per wheel. As always, your bike, your call.

Brad

My choice would be XT hubs and 36 spokes. I had a tour ruined by broken spokes and I'd rather have overkill to try and prevent a repeat occurence. I weigh 200 lbs. and carry a heavy load. Since I learned to build my own wheels I haven't broken a spokes (knock on wood!) If I weighed 160 lbs. I might consider 32h wheels, but probably not. 4 extra spokes don't weigh much, and I prefer overkill, right?

My local, trusted mechanic told me something similar to what another poster said: XTR hubs will be lighter but not stronger. He recommendd XT over XTR for my Great Divide bike.

4 extra spokes don't weigh much, and I prefer overkill, right?
Then again if you do need to replace a hub or rim 32 spoke ones are getting to be much easier to find. I would say go with 36 spokes if you will be loading them heavily, but consider 32 (or even 32 back 24 front) if you are light and or pack light.

Have been doing some research and have a question for those who have "been There"

I am considering building up a bike for touring. I have been looking at Disc Brake wheelsets and am planning on 700C size. Are 36 Spoked wheels a requirement by most opinions or can a beefy set of 32’s be used say with DT-Swiss Competition 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes. This affects my choice of hubs between Shimano XT (in 36H) or Shimano XTR (32H)

Thanks in advance

DT Competition aren't what I would call particularly "beefy". DT Alpine III, Wheelsmith DH13 or Sapim Strongs have a stronger head and really are "beefy". Even then, I'd still go with a 36 hole rim.

For the price of an XTR, you could also build with White Industries hubs. Superb hubs that are very smooth. They have maintenance free cartridge bearings. And, as a bonus, they are an US company.

For about $100 more, you could go with Phil Wood hubs. They don't have the titanium free hub that the White Industries and XTR hubs have but they are way easier to work on if you ever have to. And, again, they are a US company.

I'd still go with 36 holes.

Deaver, with just the llimited information given I'd ask you to do a simple pro/con comparison. More spokes means less likelyhood of spoke breakage for the rear wheel. Fewer spokes and XTR hubs means you spend a lot more money for insignificant weight reduction in a touring application.

So if you want irrelevant weight savings for a touring application and sufficient durability we need more information. Basically choosing between 32 and 36 spokes misses about 90% of the relevant factors without knowing the load on the wheels and the rims. You could have an overbuilt 32 spoke wheel or an underbuilt 36 spoke wheel.

My $.02 if your riding is utilitarian and $200 can make the difference for other things throw the desire for fancy hubs and light weight out the window and get utilitarian durable wheels. Handspunwheels are a good value. So are PeterWhites wheels made with the cheapest hubs and rims. They will last just about as long as the expensive ones. But if you've got the bucks for the "ultimate" wheels and you ride unloaded and fast consider two sets of wheels, or two rear wheels if most of your touring load is on the rear.

Using xtr hubs is more a reflection of ones wallet than any pragmatic upgrade.

mmmmm.......... and here I'm thinking that I can use my old hybrid wheels for a touring bike build this summer.... but I appear to be 4 spokes short.

mmmmm.......... and here I'm thinking that I can use my old hybrid wheels for a touring bike build this summer.... but I appear to be 4 spokes short.

Who took those spokes!

It depends a lot on the rim section. We tour on a tandem with an all-up touring weight of about 400 lbs. Our 36H Deep V rims don't even go out of true, much less break spokes. The depth of a rim radically changes how much a spoke is tensioned and detensioned as the loaded wheel rotates. So the number of spokes depends much more on the rim section than on the load carried. I'm another one who's never broken a spoke on either a tandem or single, running ordinary 28H box rims on some singles. Handbuilt wheels are the ticket, whatever you run.

Folks, Many, Many thanks for your replies. You all have made some very valid points

I will go with 36 Spoke wheels as it does make the most sense. The reason I asked about the XTR Hubs is that I have a set given to me in the 32H version. I thought (Dreamed) that I could get away with using them, OK it was a real reach.

I will build the wheelset myself as I have been building my own wheels for quite some time. I had considered the velocity Dyads as a rim choice and in fact own a set using them. I think I would prefer a double eyelets, rim such as the Mavic 719 as the spoke bed should be a little stronger.

I am also a backpacker and have learned to pack light but the advantage of the 36 spokes gives me some cushion for durability.

Again, Thanks for taking your time to reply

[COLOR=#3e3e3e][FONT=Tahoma]The reason I asked about the XTR Hubs is that I have a set given to me in the 32H version.

I wouldn't buy the XTR hubs for touring, but if I had them I'd use them. That is unless 32 spokes was a problem for how heavy you plan to load the bike.

For the price of an XTR, you could also build with White Industries hubs. Superb hubs that are very smooth. They have maintenance free cartridge bearings. And, as a bonus, they are an US company.

For about $100 more, you could go with Phil Wood hubs. They don't have the titanium free hub that the White Industries and XTR hubs have but they are way easier to work on if you ever have to. And, again, they are a US company.

I'd still go with 36 holes.

+1
I won't buy non-cartridge hubs anymore. They aren't worth the waste of time in maintenance. In my experience, a cartridge hub may need service about once per decade.

I put White hubs on the last bike I built a couple years ago, and am very happy with them.

I have a set of Phil hubs on another bike. The hubs were purchased 1997, and are now on their second bike. Both hubs have been serviced just once since new. IIRC, the specs on the White indicate they are about half weight of the Phils. The latter are on my touring bike, so weight is not a big issue.

Folks, Many, Many thanks for your replies. You all have made some very valid points

I will go with 36 Spoke wheels as it does make the most sense. The reason I asked about the XTR Hubs is that I have a set given to me in the 32H version. I thought (Dreamed) that I could get away with using them, OK it was a real reach.

I will build the wheelset myself as I have been building my own wheels for quite some time. I had considered the velocity Dyads as a rim choice and in fact own a set using them. I think I would prefer a double eyelets, rim such as the Mavic 719 as the spoke bed should be a little stronger.

I am also a backpacker and have learned to pack light but the advantage of the 36 spokes gives me some cushion for durability.

Again, Thanks for taking your time to reply

It all gets down to application/load. A 32 spoke front with 719 rim could be just fine. I'd still go for 36 on the rear.

Yea for Touring, current XTR is a misapplication, to much has gone into gram shaving..
go down market far enough to get a freehub with a Steel axle with 1/4" bearings.

Deaver, There are several levels of touring, which are roughly set by how much weight is to be carried and for how far the tour will be. The expedition level tourers can carry the most and it's prudent advice to suggest a minimum of 36 spokes per wheel. As always, your bike, your call.

Brad

Agree - the combined load and rider weight should set the decision, and a light rider carrying less than 40lbs would be fine with 26" tires and 32H wheelsets. Something that hasn't been brought up is that a wider tire transmits less stress through the spokes than a skinny high pressure tire. Personally I'd stay away from anything exotic like titanium. The wear characteristics aren't as good as steel.

Folks, Many, Many thanks for your replies. You all have made some very valid points. I will go with 36 Spoke wheels as it does make the most sense. The reason I asked about the XTR Hubs is that I have a set given to me in the 32H version. I thought (Dreamed) that I could get away with using them, OK it was a real reach. I will build the wheelset myself as I have been building my own wheels for quite some time. I had considered the velocity Dyads as a rim choice and in fact own a set using them. I think I would prefer a double eyelets, rim such as the Mavic 719 as the spoke bed should be a little stronger. I am also a backpacker and have learned to pack light but the advantage of the 36 spokes gives me some cushion for durability. Again, Thanks for taking your time to reply

Deaver; Just noting that you didn't replay back with any of the requested factual data (rider weight, load weight, load positioning, type of touring, specifics on your bike, gearing, etc.), that would have allow more focused assistance. On the topic of the Divads... yes they are quite stout...I have a lot of them installed on my rolling toys in both 26" and 700C and both sizes in Tandem grade use. In a well built wheel they will take on almost anything. More so if you up the spoke count a bit (but without data can't be specific or focused on your worse case needs).

Interesting - so 32H rims are OK for DH and FR applications, but questionable for loaded touring. Those must be pretty rough roads!

with modern rims, i wouldn't think twice about whether or not to use free XTR 32H hubs for touring. i would use them without reservation.:thumb:

Interesting - so 32H rims are OK for DH and FR applications, but questionable for loaded touring. Those must be pretty rough roads!

It's not the road it's the load and duration of the ride. A 175lb rider out for the day with replacement wheel back home is a different situation than a 175lb rider with 30lbs of dead weight on the wheel and a blipped wheel keeps you from getting home let alone another wheel.

I will go with 36 Spoke wheels as it does make the most sense. The reason I asked about the XTR Hubs is that I have a set given to me in the 32H version. I thought (Dreamed) that I could get away with using them, OK it was a real reach.

I will build the wheelset myself as I have been building my own wheels for quite some time. I had considered the velocity Dyads as a rim choice and in fact own a set using them. I think I would prefer a double eyelets, rim such as the Mavic 719 as the spoke bed should be a little stronger.

I bought XTR hubs for a song, laced them to Velocity Synergy OC rims with 32 DT Swiss Competition spokes and brass nipples. Built the wheels myself and have yet to have a major problem, though I'll admit that I tend to pack semi-light and stay on pavement. If you're really paranoid, upgrade from DT Swiss Competition spokes to the Alpine III that cyccommute mentioned.

I am thinking two wheel sets are now in order.

First some upfront facts I weigh ~190 -200Lbs in riding attire. I am 6-Ft, 4-Inches tall. I already own lightweight camping gear from my Back Packing ventures. I hope to do two types of touring, First with rear Panniers only and Credit Card (Cash) in hand. Second a few overnighters in a tent, tarp or hammock maybe a week or two at a clip with purchased provisions along the way. I have Back Packed for as much as 65 Days straight using a 30Lbs pack including all gear and food. These would be my predicted scenarios.

Wheeset One – 9 Speed, 32h M965 XTR Hubs Front and Rear XT M770 Cassette 11-32, H+Son TB14 Rim in Hard Anno, DT Swiss Competition Spokes 2.0-1.8-.2.0 Brass Nipples. Continental Top Contact 32mm or Cyclocross Speed 35mm Foldable

Wheelset Two – 9 Speed XT M785 36h Hubs Front and Rear XT M770 Cassette 11-32
Rim: TBD (Mavic 719 or …) DT Swiss Competition Spokes 2.0-1.8-.2.0 Brass Nipples. Continental Top Contact 35mm wire Bead or Cyclocross Speed 42 mm Wire

The Bike itself will be a 7000 Series Butted Aluminum Rocky Mountain Frame, Carbon Disc Series rigid Fork. King Headset, Thomson Seatpost, Avid BB7 Mech Disc Brakes, XTR M952 Lever-Shifters, XTR M970 Triple Crankset, XTR M952 Rear Der, XTR M960 Front Der, Scott AT-2 LF Handle Bars, VO Stem, Brooks B17 Saddle and Bar Tape, Front and Rear MT series Blackburn Racks, Front and Rear MountainSmith Panniers, Garmin Edge 705 GPS
Bike should weigh around 22-25 Lbs when assembled Less Panniers

The chosen wheeset will be used as distance - overall weight - terrain type is defined or anticipated for a given trip.

I have considered the DT Swiss Alpine III Spokes as suggested for my application but I have the Comps on hand and they are close to the same Size 2.34 – 1.8 – 2.0 verses 2.0 -1.8 -2.0

Many Thanks again for your thoughts

It's not the road it's the load and duration of the ride. A 175lb rider out for the day with replacement wheel back home is a different situation than a 175lb rider with 30lbs of dead weight on the wheel and a blipped wheel keeps you from getting home let alone another wheel.

There are 200lb riders that do multiple seasons of down-hill riding at Bromont on the same bike and they go through a lot of tires, lots of brake pads, ocassionally ding a rim - but I've yet to see a broken spoke or heard about scrapping a wheel. There have been crashes that have scrapped $1,0000 forks, broken bones and cracked ribs - but no scrapped rims to date.

First some upfront facts I weigh ~190 -200Lbs in riding attire. I am 6-Ft, 4-Inches tall. I already own lightweight camping gear from my Back Packing ventures. I hope to do two types of touring, First with rear Panniers only and Credit Card (Cash) in hand. Second a few overnighters in a tent, tarp or hammock maybe a week or two at a clip with purchased provisions along the way. I have Back Packed for as much as 65 Days straight using a 30Lbs pack including all gear and food. These would be my predicted scenarios.

Wheeset One – 9 Speed, 32h M965 XTR Hubs Front and Rear XT M770 Cassette 11-32, H+Son TB14 Rim in Hard Anno, DT Swiss Competition Spokes 2.0-1.8-.2.0 Brass Nipples. Continental Top Contact 32mm or Cyclocross Speed 35mm Foldable

Wheelset Two – 9 Speed XT M785 36h Hubs Front and Rear XT M770 Cassette 11-32
Rim: TBD (Mavic 719 or …) DT Swiss Competition Spokes 2.0-1.8-.2.0 Brass Nipples. Continental Top Contact 35mm wire Bead or Cyclocross Speed 42 mm Wire

Having two wheelsets sounds like overkill to me. I think you'll be absolutely fine with 32-spoke wheels. Then again, I've also embraced indexed shifting, disc brakes, 9- and 10-speed drive-trains and a bunch of other modern technology that the curmudgeons here would never consider :D

the specs on the White indicate they are about half weight of the Phils.

The White M15 rear hub is listed as 265g http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html
Anyone know the weight of a Phil Woods touring rear hub.

The Woods hub seems to be VERY road maintenance friendly. How do the Whites compare in that department?

Thanks! :)

The White M15 rear hub is listed as 265g http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html
Anyone know the weight of a Phil Woods touring rear hub.

The Woods hub seems to be VERY road maintenance friendly. How do the Whites compare in that department?

Thanks! :)

Weight Weenies (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=hubs) lists a Phil Wood Road cassette hub at 425g. It's been a while since I've taken a White Industries hub apart but it's not nearly as easy as the Phils are. The front Phil Wood hub takes a little effort...but not much...while the rear hub just falls apart once you've removed the end caps. The whole cassette mechanism comes out of the hub which makes replacing a spoke a snap.

36 rear
32 front
150-170 lbs + ~50 lbs of gear
brass nipples
double butted dt spokes
alex adventurer rims
velocity CB hubs

There is no reason to have the same number on each wheel. You never have as much weight on the front, even when you load it. Your body weight is more toward the back wheel.

I have heard that lx is just as good if not better than xt for hubs.

above all, get a competent builder. That's really the key.

There is no reason to have the same number on each wheel. You never have as much weight on the front, even when you load it. Your body weight is more toward the back wheel.


I'm not sure that is true all the time or even most of the time. Maybe on level ground, but even there, touring bikes have a longer wheelbase to bring more of the load forward of the rear axle. When you are climbing while seated...and perhaps even when standing...there is more weight over the rear wheel. But when you head down a hill, there is more weight on the front wheel and when you brake on any bike, more weight is transferred to the front wheel. There are lots of situations where the front wheel is going to carry more of the load than the back wheel.

There are 200lb riders that do multiple seasons of down-hill riding at Bromont on the same bikeand they go through a lot of tires, lots of brake pads, ocassionally ding a rim - but I've yet to see a broken spoke or heard about scrapping a wheel. There have been crashes that have scrapped $1,0000 forks, broken bones and cracked ribs - but no scrapped rims to date.

Do they do it with 30lbs on a hard tail ?

Pretty sure Deaver could do light touring with any good modern rim but once you put 30lbs of dead weight on the rear wheel what advantage does that 32 spoke wheel give you over 36? None. What does a 36 spoke rear wheel have in that application? Less stress per spoke.

Do they do it with 30lbs on a hard tail ?

Pretty sure Deaver could do light touring with any good modern rim but once you put 30lbs of dead weight on the rear wheel what advantage does that 32 spoke wheel give you over 36? None. What does a 36 spoke rear wheel have in that application? Less stress per spoke.

Most of these bikes already weigh 30 lbs more than the average touring bike to start off with. Does that count for anything?

If you want to use 36 spokes - be my guest. Just don't try to convince me that a few less spokes and the wheel is going to self destruct. If you're really interested in less stress per spoke -try recommending wider tires.

If you're really interested in less stress per spoke -try recommending wider tires.

I wonder if asymmetric rim drillings any advantages in this regard? I was surprised at how even the tension was between the drive and non-drive spokes when I built wheels using Velocity's Synergy OC (= Off-Center) rims. So far, they've required less maintenance than any of my other wheel sets...

Most of these bikes already weigh 30 lbs more than the average touring bike to start off with. Does that count for anything?

If you want to use 36 spokes - be my guest. Just don't try to convince me that a few less spokes and the wheel is going to self destruct. If you're really interested in less stress per spoke -try recommending wider tires.

Could I convince you of alien abductions or reincarnation?
Of course the wheel won't self destruct. I said 32 spokes would be fine for light touring.
My point was that once you put 30lbs dead weight on the rear axle of a bike ridden by a 200lb rider it's no longer light touring so why not err on the side of durability than what, a wheel that weighs an ounce less?

I'm not sure that is true all the time or even most of the time. Maybe on level ground, but even there, touring bikes have a longer wheelbase to bring more of the load forward of the rear axle. When you are climbing while seated...and perhaps even when standing...there is more weight over the rear wheel. But when you head down a hill, there is more weight on the front wheel and when you brake on any bike, more weight is transferred to the front wheel. There are lots of situations where the front wheel is going to carry more of the load than the back wheel.

I’m glad someone sees a bicycle as an object in motion and in changing motions. Let’s assume we are doing 50 kph down a 10% grade on a sharp corner and hit the brakes hard as we hit a pothole. Maybe someone who knows the math can give the real numbers, but I would not be surprised if the shock load on the front wheel of a 250 lb loaded bike might be 350 or 400 lbs. At some point, assuming the wheel didn't collapse, the G force would throw you over the handle bars or the rider and the bike would go airborne.

With that said, I use 32 spokes front and 36 rear. The principle reason is the spoke angle on the drive side of the rear wheel. On my wife’s bike I notice the Campy wheels, which don’t have a lot of spokes front or rear, the rear wheel has two spokes on the drive side to every one spoke on the left side. I suppose I could put 36 spokes both front and rear on my bike, but real or imagined I think 32 up front give me a more comfortable ride (I also generally tour with a larger rear tire, in part for comfort.). But hour after hour on the road most of my touring weight is on the rear wheel most of the time and the extra spokes stabilize the rear wheel especially when standing out of the saddle and cornering at speed. In extreme situations the wheels only have to be up to the job and not necessarily comfortable. When on a mountain grade and a logging truck is pulling onto the road and I am white knuckled on the brakes, I am not concerned with uncomfortable road vibration in my handlebars or saddle only that everything including myself holds together.

So I want my wheels built to up to withstand shock loads but no stronger, and then modified for comfort and stability.

As stated previously, I have never broken a spoke on a hand laced wheel no matter the number of spokes.

Could I convince you of alien abductions or reincarnation?
Of course the wheel won't self destruct. I said 32 spokes would be fine for light touring.
My point was that once you put 30lbs dead weight on the rear axle of a bike ridden by a 200lb rider it's no longer light touring so why not err on the side of durability than what, a wheel that weighs an ounce less?

Doesn't that argument cut both ways? If a 36-spoke wheel weighs only a few ounces more, how much extra strength can it really provide compared to a 32-spoke wheel?

I’m glad someone sees a bicycle as an object in motion and in changing motions.

you say that as if you two are the only ones here that think that. . .

considering all of the following it makes no sense to have the same number of spokes on each wheel:
- torsion on the rear wheel from the drivetran
- the need for dished back wheels
- 32/36 ~= 89%
- most tourists put way more weight on the back rack
- most tourists aren't using disc brakes (if you are I WOULD suggest a 36 spoke front wheel)
-statically, a bike may be 40/60 distributed or less
-when braking hard it's very possible to have a very large amount of force on the front wheel, usually never more than the total rider weight (see below)

If you're on a flat surface, the most you can have on the front wheel will be the total rider weight with gear and bike as long as you're not accelerating yourself up and down. The same can be said on a slope. A pothole can add to this maximum because it accelerates the bike down and then up very quickly. Depends on the size of the bump as to how much weight the front wheel will see.

Cyccomute, while it is true that the front wheel sometimes sees more weight, it's the long term effects that wear out a wheel. Catastrophic failure is one thing, but it's usually fatigue that does in a wheel. Bikers tend not to be on downhills nearly as long as they are on uphills, and braking doesn't take long either. There is a reason why more people tend to have problems with their rear wheel on tour or elsewhere. It's pretty common knowledge that the reason you have the same number of spokes on a wheel is because it's cheaper for manufacturers: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes. Figured a lot of that was implied, and clearly I can't make a short post without fully hashing out the physics of everything.

Edit: and for the record, my 36" wheel on my unicycle only uses 36 spokes and that constantly supports my full weight and takes the brunt of any potholes. Anything more than that for a single individual seems really silly for road riding to me. . . but that is a non-dished wheel.

you say that as if you two are the only ones here that think that. . .

considering all of the following it makes no sense to have the same number of spokes on each wheel:
- torsion on the rear wheel from the drivetran
- the need for dished back wheels
- 32/36 ~= 89%
- most tourists put way more weight on the back rack
- most tourists aren't using disc brakes (if you are I WOULD suggest a 36 spoke front wheel)
-statically, a bike may be 40/60 distributed or less
-when braking hard it's very possible to have a very large amount of force on the front wheel, usually never more than the total rider weight (see below)

If you're on a flat surface, the most you can have on the front wheel will be the total rider weight with gear and bike as long as you're not accelerating yourself up and down. The same can be said on a slope. A pothole can add to this maximum because it accelerates the bike down and then up very quickly. Depends on the size of the bump as to how much weight the front wheel will see.

Cyccomute, while it is true that the front wheel sometimes sees more weight, it's the long term effects that wear out a wheel. Catastrophic failure is one thing, but it's usually fatigue that does in a wheel. Bikers tend not to be on downhills nearly as long as they are on uphills, and braking doesn't take long either. There is a reason why more people tend to have problems with their rear wheel on tour or elsewhere. It's pretty common knowledge that the reason you have the same number of spokes on a wheel is because it's cheaper for manufacturers: http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes. Figured a lot of that was implied, and clearly I can't make a short post without fully hashing out the physics of everything.

Edit: and for the record, my 36" wheel on my unicycle only uses 36 spokes and that constantly supports my full weight and takes the brunt of any potholes. Anything more than that for a single individual seems really silly for road riding to me. . . but that is a non-dished wheel.

Wheel wear can be in many forms. Most wheels are going to wear out because of brake track wear long before spokes will fatigue with either front or back loads on the wheel.

I also think you are taking away the wrong message from Sheldon Brown's article. The Great Spoke Scam was in reducing the number of spokes and getting away with it on unloaded bikes. Touring bikes are a different animal with more stresses on both wheels. My touring load split isn't 40% of the load in the front and 60% in the back, it's the opposite and I suggest the same to everyone when they ask about load distribution. That number isn't just mine however. Frank Berto and Jim Blackburn did a very good series of studies back in the early 80s and determined that that ratio gave better handling. It also puts more load on the stronger wheel.

As for braking, it's not just the rider weight but the weight of the whole system. Again, a touring bike is a different animal. There's rider weight and the bike's weight...which is usually higher than an unloaded road bike...and luggage weight. All of it figures into the weight distribution caused by braking forces.

Finally, from the Sheldon Brown article, going to few spokes puts more stress on the spokes, the rims and the hubs. For what purpose? 4 spokes don't save you any weight. 4 fewer spokes saves little in air drag...not on a bike that has excess surface area from bags. At about $1 per spoke, it saves you a minuscule amount of money on a build as well.

Let's also not forget that Deaver is talking about a disc brake wheel.

Interesting - so 32H rims are OK for DH and FR applications, but questionable for loaded touring. Those must be pretty rough roads! One difference between touring and mountain biking is that when touring, the weight is all directly attached to the bicycle's frame. If you jump over a log, the weight of your body should be cushioned by your arms and legs, and possibly by the bicycle's suspension, so that the wheels don't take the full weight all at once. When you go over a bump on a loaded bicycle, the weight on the racks isn't cushioned. It's sort of like the difference between dropping an anvil and setting it down slowly. Having the weight directly attached to the frame means that on a touring bicycle, the weight can't be 'set down slowly,' but hits the wheels all at once.

One difference between touring and mountain biking is that when touring, the weight is all directly attached to the bicycle's frame. If you jump over a log, the weight of your body should be cushioned by your arms and legs, and possibly by the bicycle's suspension, so that the wheels don't take the full weight all at once. When you go over a bump on a loaded bicycle, the weight on the racks isn't cushioned. It's sort of like the difference between dropping an anvil and setting it down slowly. Having the weight directly attached to the frame means that on a touring bicycle, the weight can't be 'set down slowly,' but hits the wheels all at once.


Oooooutch! You make it sound like down hill mountain biking is a GENTLE sport compared to cycle tourism. So what is the full body armor and full face helmet all about?

The point being - if I already had decent 32H hubs - I'd use 'em. And if I already had decent 36H hubs - I'd use those. Rim and tire selection can have a MUCH bigger impact on wheel strength than just spoke count.

As the wheel diameter is reduced the distance between spoke holes can remain similar,
while the count is reduced..

prime example Santa Cruz Bike Guru Keith Bontrager took a few 40 hole 700c rims , and cut them down,
and rolled them tighter to be a light , narrow, 26" wheel rim..


406 32 hole rims with the Rohloff hub in the center is even more strong than the same hub in a 26" wheel ..

The German company now also Offers a 36 hole hubshell since there are quite a few Adventure travelers
on tandems, using those Hubs.
and a careful wheel builder can build those up 3 cross, maybe four, where the 32 hole ones built as a 2 cross maybe 3.
( Koga missed the key spoke in doing a 3 cross 32 hole so I had to re lace it as the R'off company suggested 2 cross.)

Doesn't that argument cut both ways? If a 36-spoke wheel weighs only a few ounces more, how much extra strength can it really provide compared to a 32-spoke wheel?

4 spokes is about 25 grams, smidge less than an oz. 18 spokes instead of 16 on the drive side. I'd say it provides a smidge more longevity and less wobble should a spoke break. Don't think there would be a significant difference regarding tacoing a wheel. Basically I figure 25grams less means nothing once you add a few lbs and once you add 30lbs in a touring application where bikes are layed sideways there's more to be gained with more than less spokes.

Oooooutch! You make it sound like down hill mountain biking is a GENTLE sport compared to cycle tourism. So what is the full body armor and full face helmet all about?

The point being - if I already had decent 32H hubs - I'd use 'em. And if I already had decent 36H hubs - I'd use those. Rim and tire selection can have a MUCH bigger impact on wheel strength than just spoke count.

Body armor and helmet protect the body, irrelevant here. With your argument one could just as well say wheels in the Tour de France survive tremendous abuse so you can tour with 32 spoke wheels and 400 gram rims.
I agree rim and tire selection matter more than spoke count, as does quality of build. I figure if the op is obsessing he should go all the way, same spoke count and heavier rear rim or different spoke count. Come on, more wheels betta.

So what do the experts think, 12% more spokes equal what percentage less failure or what percentage stronger wheel? Linear or exponential correlation?

Body armor and helmet protect the body, irrelevant here. With your argument one could just as well say wheels in the Tour de France survive tremendous abuse so you can tour with 32 spoke wheels and 400 gram rims.
I agree rim and tire selection matter more than spoke count, as does quality of build. I figure if the op is obsessing he should go all the way, same spoke count and heavier rear rim or different spoke count. Come on, more wheels betta.

I really don't think riding heavy bikes with DH wheels multiple seasons in a high impact sport involving jumps and obstacles is in any way comparable to riding ultralight bikes for a short period of time on paved roads. And my own opinion was that the OP was more inexperienced and insecure than obcessed.

The Deore XT wheelset I've been riding for the past few years only have 26 spokes in the rear wheel, but they have a 12mm rear axle and a 15mm front. Probably an indication that a broken axle is more of a risk than broken spokes.

But thats just my opinion - obviously yours is different.

Weight Weenies (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=hubs) lists a Phil Wood Road cassette hub at 425g. It's been a while since I've taken a White Industries hub apart but it's not nearly as easy as the Phils are. The front Phil Wood hub takes a little effort...but not much...while the rear hub just falls apart once you've removed the end caps. The whole cassette mechanism comes out of the hub which makes replacing a spoke a snap.

Thanks cyccommute :beer: Anyone in england (or elsewhere in europe) have a reliable resaler of Woods hubs? (preferably in the London area, I'll be there soon).The english dealers listed seem mostly to be into fixed gear...

fwiw, my touring wheels are 36 spoke front and rear for peace of mind. Never had a spoke break on a 36 wheel.

My touring wheels are 36H Velocity Dyads laced to Ultegra hubs with DT Comp spokes. They have been very durable, despite a poor build initially that resulting in them making a lot of strange noises. I took them to a more experienced builder who corrected the tensions and they are now very durable AND quiet. The lack of double in eyelets in Dyads is a non-issue compared to Mavic A719s because the Dyads have a deeper profile. Dyads are very strong rims widely used for touring as well as tandems.

Wheel wear can be in many forms. Most wheels are going to wear out because of brake track wear long before spokes will fatigue with either front or back loads on the wheel.

I also think you are taking away the wrong message from Sheldon Brown's article. The Great Spoke Scam was in reducing the number of spokes and getting away with it on unloaded bikes. Touring bikes are a different animal with more stresses on both wheels. My touring load split isn't 40% of the load in the front and 60% in the back, it's the opposite and I suggest the same to everyone when they ask about load distribution. That number isn't just mine however. Frank Berto and Jim Blackburn did a very good series of studies back in the early 80s and determined that that ratio gave better handling. It also puts more load on the stronger wheel.

As for braking, it's not just the rider weight but the weight of the whole system. Again, a touring bike is a different animal. There's rider weight and the bike's weight...which is usually higher than an unloaded road bike...and luggage weight. All of it figures into the weight distribution caused by braking forces.

Finally, from the Sheldon Brown article, going to few spokes puts more stress on the spokes, the rims and the hubs. For what purpose? 4 spokes don't save you any weight. 4 fewer spokes saves little in air drag...not on a bike that has excess surface area from bags. At about $1 per spoke, it saves you a minuscule amount of money on a build as well.

Let's also not forget that Deaver is talking about a disc brake wheel.

rim wear is something that can't be avoided if you're using rim brakes, but we were talking about building wheels that were appropriate for the job. That's just deflecting the question at hand.

4 fewer spokes may not be much weight by itself, but spin those suckers up, and you're talking about a noticeable difference in how the bike feels. If you want to use that argument, then why not build 48 spoke wheels? I have a 20" 48 spoked wheel for one of my unicycless. . . and trust me, you could let your pet elephant ride on that thing. It's not about just strength, it's about a balance of strength and performance. If you just want strength, then go to 40 spoke with alpine III spokes and be done with it all.

I would go with more spokes for a disc-brake front wheel because it introduces some torsional forces to braking, and I usually brake with the front brake only. Sorry I missed that he was specifically talking about a disc-brake wheel

The front wheels is inherently stronger by design, it's my opinion that if you balance your bike, you should be just fine with 32/36 spoke counts. I'm not twisting anybody's arm to go buy 32 spoke front wheels. I'm trying to give sound advise for someone that may not want to over-build their wheels. Again, I would tell anybody that's building a wheelset to talk to an actual wheelbuilder and not only use forums for advise.

and sitting here telling me touring includes rider and luggage weight is just plain passive aggressive. You didn't even read the very next line I wrote.