Classic & Vintage - Help with derrailleur swap

Hello everyone:

I am in the process of reconstructing an old 10 speed Free Spirit bicycle. It comes with a Simplex rear and front derailleurs which I have read that not many people seem to hold in high regard. My neighbor kindly donated me a set of rear and front Suntour Superbe which are used but in magnificent condition. My question is: could I just swap the original Simplex for the Suntour? Tey look slightly different so I am anticipating having to use some sort of adapter(?) in order to use it. Am I in the right path? Or is it wishful thinking? I just would like to have a functional old beater without having to spent a fortune or even anything at all... Just one disclaimer... This is my first bike project ever. I would appreciate a kind soul who could give me some piece of advice on this matter. Thanks.

On some bikes the rear derailleur (RD) is screwed directly into the drop out (DO, that the piece which holds the wheels so that when you want to remove them the wheels "drop out" - don't ask me where the term originated). But on other bikes, and I'm guessing your bike is this way, the RD is bolted to a "claw", i.e. a claw-shaped bracket that is held to the outside of the DO by a special screw and bracket that fits into the back of the axle slot in the DO. In general, claw-mounted RDs can be swapped with little trouble. The screw which holds it to the DO may even be the same threads, but your Suntour may have come with its mounting screw.

You will have to adjust the stop screws on the RD so that it doesn't overshift in either high or low gear. High isn't so much a problem but it if shifts past the low gear (the big cog) it can get caught in the spokes, which is catastrophic.

The length of chain may be okay, but the new RD cage may be a different length. So check that you have enough chain for the big chainring-big cog combination, and that the RD can take up enough chain to handle the little-little combination without the chain going slack. You really shouldn't ride in the big-big or little-little combinations, but people do anyway by accident even when they say they'll never do that.

Enjoy your bike!

Hello Jim:

Thanks for taking the time. yes! It happens that you have described the whole scenario perfectly. I appreciated your comments on the lenght of the chain as it never ocurred to me to think about that. I am going to try the swap this coming weekend.
my next challenge is the cabling. Te Free Spirit has on stem shifters (broken) and the donor SunTour has down tube. Wat would my options be here? Could I try adapting even a newer on headset shifters? Or am I stuck with having to find a new (for me) stem shifter set?

If the SunTour downtube shifters fit your bike you're good to go. You have to route the cables in accordance with the features provided on the bike, but that should be pretty obvious. Downtube shifters are the simplest, least troublesome option.

Hi Geoff:
Something that I didn't take in consideration was that in order to use downtube shifters, the frame needs to have some built in receivers.... Isn't it? I say this based on what I saw when I took the SunTour system from the other bike, an SR or something like that (made in Japan). Is there some sort of brace that I could use in order to adapt the downtube shifters to onstem? They look new even after more than 30 years and I would love to get to use the freebies... I know that the receiving bike (Free Spirit) probably isn't worthy of all this trouble.... But in the name of learning.... Why not?

Something that I didn't take in consideration was that in order to use downtube shifters, the frame needs to have some built in receivers.... Isn't it?.. I know that the receiving bike (Free Spirit) probably isn't worthy of all this trouble.... But in the name of learning.... Why not?
Indeed, learning about bikes and fixing yours are both worth the trouble.

Downtube shift levers do not need anything special, almost. You do need to make sure the cable clamp won't slide down the tube, so either they have to be tightened well or they need to be anchored against something.

Notice how the cable housing was routed. Stem shifters usually have a section from the lever to a cable stop on the downtube. From there downward the cable itself is open. Then it goes through another housing section of cable near the bottom bracket. That's all you need, that section at the bottom. The cable with downtube shfiters goes directly down to that housing section.

Or, is it possible that the Suntour shifters you got are for "braze on" mounts? In other words, did you just get two separate levers? Or are the levers attached to a band that will clamp and bolt to the frame tube? If they're braze on type levers you can't use them as the bike probably doesn't have the brazed on mounts on the tube to accept them. But you can find a pair of clamp on shifters to use.

Suntour Superbe rear derailleurs were designed for racing applications. Therefore, it has limited range of cogs it can be used with. It should be 26 tooth max. That may be a problem if your Free Spirit came with an 'alpine gearing' freewheel. Typical being 28 tooth +.

Here's a few stem mount Suntour shifters
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SUNTOUR-FRICTION-SHIFTERS-ROAD-BIKE-/350691311943?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a6d4c147
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-70s-SUNTOUR-POWERSHIFT-ROADBIKE-SHIFTERS-/140905769498?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20cea36a1a

And down tube, clamp on shifters
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suntour-clamp-on-downtube-friction-shifters-NICE-/150978746989?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232708da6d

Lots of this stuff on ebay.

Ooh, I missed the fact they the derailleurs were Superbe. Talk about putting a silk purse on a sow's ear. They'll be the best part of the bike!

Now, now Jim ..... let's not be judgmental. ;) But he is sort of right, Odlorah. Those derailleurs were Suntours top end racing parts back when. Very generous of your neighbor to give them to you. Maybe he can also help you find a frame that might be more suitable for these high end parts.

I don't want to sound like a snob or anything but frankly I think Odlorah should just forget the whole thing. Between need ing a claw for the derailleur, the brazeons/clamp for the shifters and the limited range of the SuperBee I think he is asking for trouble. It almost sounds like he is trying to put a 280Z transmission into a Pinto or Vega.

I think the best way for the Odlorah to imporove his shifting on that bike is a shimano or Sunrace hyperglide style freewheel (FW) and Tourny derailleur. between the shifting ramps on the FW and the floaring pully on the derailleur I think imporve the shifting without fiddling with attaching brazeon shifters to a clamp that may or may not fit the downtube (DT) which may be oversized on this.

Save those terrific derailleurs for a better project.

+1 Put Tourney or similar on this bike, it will work fine, and many of them have a built in claw, so a lot easier to mount.

Odlorah,

Your starting off with a bike that will be a good learning experience. I hope you are succesful with getting it on the road and having fun with it. Please don't spend too much money or fix it up if it does not fit you.

Everybody has opinions about this particular brand but they will give you good advice if you ask. Just let us know what YOU want to do.

I spent many years commuting on an old FS that did quite well2935401977 FS

Granted, as I moved on to other bikes, I realized that it was lacking in many ways. But it did its job well ! I still have my white FS Ted williams bike made in Austria for Sears and love to ride it around the neighborhood.

I too replaced the Simplex DRs with Suntour. If you want, I have a Suntour Front/rear DR with stem shifter I can send you for you to use. Pay shipping and it is yours. I understand about keeping it cheap but functioning.

Keep us posted and let's nsee some pics of your beater.

Any chance of getting the frame you took these off from your neighbor too?

Rgver: I do have the RS frame in m back room... Frankly, I would be embarrassed to even give away the impression that i am drooling over it. I am.
Tis is my first experienced in getting my musician's hands bruised by working on the FS. My students laughed their greasy/pimpled faces off when I proudly showed what I had gotten for Christmas. Call it a middle life crisis which I intend to make it a successful one. It is better than chasing women... Isn't it?

3speedslow:
Thank you for your support and encouragement. I promised to myself that I wasn't gonna pay for labor unless I broke something so bad to need someone to bail me out. I did pack the bearings and headset... A first one there... I replaced the brake cables. I am an expert now in cleaning chrome wheels... Replaced new tubes and tires... Not bad for a dumb music teacher who doesn't even own tools. So, far I have only spent money on tires and elbow grease... But that I found at a discount and got plenty of it.

Wrk101:
good point... I am loving learning on the FS. If I survive this one, I will be willing to try on more challenging projects. Really good point.

It sounds like a fun and cool project and learning tool, it is a great feeling knowing its all your work on something like that, especially if it was something someone else saw fit for the garbage pile. Good luck with the FS, it really sounds like you have been bitten too.

Bianchigirl:
thanks for your comment. I won't think you are a snob. But, c'mon, it can't be more difficult than marriage, can it? BTW, I had a kick with your comment about putting a 280z transmission on a pinto... These are the kind of mistakes that only experience will teach me. To be honest with you, I had never heard of SunTour before in my life! And the rock I've been living under isn't even that big at all!

When you get to dérailleur adjustment this website and YouTube are very useful.

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help

Rootoy:
My neighbor has tons of frames and bicycles in his backyard. I even offered to helping out as a way for me to learn. He didn't take on my offer... Just wonder why?

Ooh, I missed the fact they the derailleurs were Superbe. Talk about putting a silk purse on a sow's ear. They'll be the best part of the bike!

Sears could never foresee that one.....

Jettore:
I'll keep this link in mind. Youtube is the man!

Or, is it possible that the Suntour shifters you got are for "braze on" mounts? In other words, did you just get two separate levers? Or are the levers attached to a band that will clamp and bolt to the frame tube? If they're braze on type levers you can't use them as the bike probably doesn't have the brazed on mounts on the tube to accept them. But you can find a pair of clamp on shifters to use.

THe shifters I got of the SR frame came apart in a thousand pieces (washers). They were screwed to a pair of built-in eyelets on the down tube. What I need is a set of those levers that brace on the headset.

3speedslow:
Thank you for your support and encouragement. I promised to myself that I wasn't gonna pay for labor unless I broke something so bad to need someone to bail me out. I did pack the bearings and headset... A first one there... I replaced the brake cables. I am an expert now in cleaning chrome wheels... Replaced new tubes and tires... Not bad for a dumb music teacher who doesn't even own tools. So, far I have only spent money on tires and elbow grease... But that I found at a discount and got plenty of it.
293622
Odlorah,

We will keep it coming as long as it's needed. But I must tell you, you're going to have to quite all this talk about "dumb teacher". :notamused: I'm a former one myself !

Seriously, if you get hung up on the stem/ DRs, let me know and I can dig some out of the parts bin..... shipping only. If you have a neighbor next door though with a PARTS YARD, keep working on him! He might come around.

Yes pics are needed. There were a lot of FS models, let's see what you are dealing with.

What I need is a set of those levers that brace on the headset.
What you need is a set of levers on a clamp which fits the down tube. Some people think they take a bit more getting used to than stem-mounted shifters, but it really isn't hard to learn, and they are so wonderfully direct and smooth. Stem shifters are less precise because of the extra length of housing between the lever and the stop on the top end of the down tube. DT shift levers on a clamp are very common, very available.

And I'm thinking BG is right. The FS may be a fine bike for learning how to tweak a bike, but it isn't worth much expense, and don't forget that maybe your time is worth something too. Those derailleurs are wasted on that bike. There are people right here in C&V (maybe even myself if I had an ongoing project that could use them) who'd easily pay more for them than the whole rest of the bike plus whatever your labor is worth.

3speedslow:
is that white FS yours? My bike is exactly like that... Except for the sorry condition of mine... I wish! How do i publish pictures in this forum? I tried using the icon in the menu to no avail....

Odlorah,

Yes, that's mine. Check the headbadge of your. It might have the made in Austria written on there.293688 Those were actualy Puch bikes sold to Sears. The BB is a smaller diameter 3 piece crank then the American 1 piece crank. It is a swell casual riding bike that at times change around abit, then comes back to original.

Showing pics. When you reply, there is an icon that says insert pictures, click on that and then hit select files. Must be on the your computer file. follow the tabs to pull pics off your computer that you have saved. Where you left the curser is where the pic will pop up. Hope this is not too confusing....

Well, this is a nice coincidence. My FS is just the same as yours, white and everything, made in Österreich. The main difference is that mine looks like it just arrived from the Tour de Kandahar... Really. Nice!

Any luck with getting pics up with my confusing directions:p

Any luck with getting pics up with my confusing directions:p

No luck with the picture attachments... Could it be that it doesn't like the iPad?
Also... No luck with the Suntour swap. It just doesn't fit. The FS has a flat hook hat holds the old Simplex. Unfortunately it doesn't fit with the Suntour. Could I just go to the bike shop and ask for one? Is that something that is fairly common? Talking about the bracket/flat hook...
Not a happy camper rigth now... I think Bianchigirl is right..this is a nightmare.

The FS has a flat hook hat holds the old Simplex. Unfortunately it doesn't fit with the Suntour. Could I just go to the bike shop and ask for one? Is that something that is fairly common?
That hook is called a derailleur claw. Simplex likely used different threads from the rest of the world, even on their claws. Most of the time that doesn't matter to anyone because you don't usually take the claw off of a derailleur, which means you never have to swap them.

In any case, you can buy a claw for about $4 at just about any bike shop. But take the Suntour Superbe with you and see how it mounts on the claw. Normally a derailleur wouldn't have used one because it would have been used on a bike on which the dropout had an integrated derailleur hanger. The threads are pretty much universal (except for Simplex), but the length of shaft and how tightly it fits to the claw and whether it needs a shim etc. might make it not a simple plug&play. I've never used a Superbe Rd but I imagine it is what Suntour called the slant parallelogram type. The Simplex would have a spring-loaded pivot at the claw and another on the pulley cage. The slant parallelogram type did not pivot at the mount. It was meant to sit at a fixed angle to the frame, and it generally had a stop screw to adjust its position. So the claw mount doesn't have to be free to swing forward and back but you have to be able to push it forward against its stop.

^^^^^^^ What he said.

Sorry to hear about the frustration. Yes, I think using one of those I..somethings might be the cause. Do you have a reg laptop or PC ?

The Suntour DR that I put on my FS used claws that came with it and they work great. Best to have a "ready to bolt on set".

^^^^^^^ What he said.

Sorry to hear about the frustration. Yes, I think using one of those I..somethings might be the cause. Do you have a reg laptop or PC ?

The Suntour DR that I put on my FS used claws that came with it and they work great. Best to have a "ready to bolt on set".

3speedslow:
A PC? not sure what that is. Just kidding, I just wanted to sound like one of those yuppies.... Oh well, I do have a PC at work but all the pictures are in the iPad. I will have to find a way to get them out of there and uploading those here at work... you know, as risky as that might be.

Man I hate ignorance... I hate not to know what's going on with my --to everybody else-- simple RD swap project.... I'll go after work to the LBS (always wanted to say it like that) and will bring both derailleurs with me to show the guys over there to see what derailleur claw they want to sell to me.... I'm sure that a long haired guy there will have a brilliant solution to my dilemma.

Now, now Jim ..... let's not be judgmental. ;) But he is sort of right, Odlorah. Those derailleurs were Suntours top end racing parts back when. Very generous of your neighbor to give them to you. Maybe he can also help you find a frame that might be more suitable for these high end parts.
Yes... The news is that my neighbor ended up giving me the frame where the Superbe came from... It is a beautiful and light SR Maxima frame, Tange2... I asked him to sell it to me, but he offered it for free. When I insisted on paying he said: ok, give me ten cents for it... In reality he gave it to my wife.... Which is like stealing candy from a toddler...

THe shifters I got of the SR frame came apart in a thousand pieces (washers). They were screwed to a pair of built-in eyelets on the down tube. What I need is a set of those levers that brace on the headset.

Do you mean stem shifters like these? 299730

They're pretty easy to find on ebay for only a few dollars. They should work just fine with pretty much any derailleur as long as you adjust them right. A lot of people knock stem shifters, but personally I like them better than downtubes.

Do you mean stem shifters like these? 299730

They're pretty easy to find on ebay for only a few dollars. They should work just fine with pretty much any derailleur as long as you adjust them right. A lot of people knock stem shifters, but personally I like them better than downtubes.

Baytree:

This thread could be a bit confusing is because I've been talking about two bikes:
1) Rusty Free Spirit I picked up for $10 which I've been using to try to learn basic repair stuff about bikes. This bike is already up and running. This one has on stem shifters that were broken. On the advice on someone here, I found a Shimano replacement for $10 bucks.... I cleaned up the old Simplex derailleur and put it back on. It works just fine.

2) My neighbor ended up giving me almost a complete SR road frame and components, no wheels and with wonderful Suntour Superbe components which I have learned now that are old but quality. The story is that not knowing what I was doing, I was trying to install those to the old Free Spirit.... The most memorable comment was that that would be like putting a silk purse on a sow's ear....

the end of that story is that now I have two separate projects. The FS and the SR Maxima in optimal shape but no wheels or crankset/BB. A valuable lesson hat I have learned is that unless you have a bunch of parts lying around from previous projects or whatever, it isn't cost effective to rebuild a bike. In my case, if I purchase a crankset, headset and wheels, I will have overpasses the cost of the bike itself.... The problem now is that the wife wants that bike built for her....

No pressure....

Baytree:

This thread could be a bit confusing is because I've been talking about two bikes...

Whoops. Completely missed that, sorry!

Odlorah, you have a great project there! All the best with it. That SR will be a great bike when you are finished.

As for it being cost-effective to rebuild a bike, I think it can be. Especially when you are given most of the parts and the frame. Hunt around in the C&V For Sale thread or the For Trade thread. Or search ebay but do it carefully. You needn't buy a new crankset. New seaeled-bearing bottom brackets are a good idea and not very expensive, but they aren't necessary if you can find an old set that fits.

I look forward to more reports on your progress on the SR.