Touring - New touring bike critique before purchase

I'm not a bike guy (long distance hiker) so I want to make sure I'm not missing an important detail when I buy my new bike. http://www.spinburn.com.tw/performer/product_info.php?cPath=52_1_40&products_id=155 edit - this bike is completely out for the reasons listed below - I've moved on to probably doing a Surly build

Touring setup and plans
Probably 40 lbs max of gear but hopefully closer to 30lbs. I have too many electronics to go significantly lighter for a long trip. I will be really light on short trips.
Camping w/ Ortliebs front/rear
probably aiming for 60-80 km/day with additional time spent hiking and sightseeing
I will be on some rough roads but I won't be going completely off road.
Hokkaido for 2months - summer 2013
Taiwan circle tour - 1 month spring 2014
All over japan for 4-5 months in 2014

I'll have 30-40 lbs of gear on the bike plus myself (170 lbs).

I prefer flat bars and they will swap them in the build. My understanding is that it's easy to change to a trekking/butterfly bar later if you start with flat bar shifters. Or should I just try a trekking bar at the beginning?

Is the 50/34 and 12-30 low enough for going up mountains? edit - definitely not

I will probably get a Brooks saddle because they seem to be the way to go.

I've been to several of the dealers in my city but none of them have had any models on display and even if they did it would probably be too small anyway. I'm bigger than the average Asian. I have ridden/owned several 56cm bikes so that seems like it would fit but I'll let the bike store measure me.

Of course this whole transaction will be done with a language barrier.

KB, The gearing isn't quite right for climbing with a load, but that's common for off the shelf tourers. If you can have a mountain bike triple crankset or a treking triple crankset substituted, that would be better.

Brad

KB, The gearing isn't quite right for climbing with a load, but that's common for off the shelf tourers. If you can have a mountain bike triple crankset or a treking triple crankset substituted, that would be better.


+1 on this. Also, I used to prefer flat bars when I was first starting out 4 years ago. However, now that I've been riding for awhile I've switched over to drop bars. The drop bars did take some getting used to but now I prefer them for touring and road riding.

IMO, the first thing you would need is another set of wheels. I count 20 spokes both front and rear, and I think 32 is rediculously low for a loaded tourer. I'd look elsewhere...

The mavic wheels are 20 spoke, I would want more spokes personally. The fork also appears to not have a mid blade eyelet, that is nice to have for mounting a variety of front racks. You could always mount an old man mountain on the front but eyelets are nice for versatility.

It appears that you have a few bike shops in your town, go and talk to some of the shops.

A lot of steel touring frames sold in the US are made in Taiwan...

+1 FAIL
The TT is 20mm too short also.

I don't understand the preference for flat bars. Drops give you the same hand position as flats but with the option to put your hands in other positions as well. You aren't stuck in one place. If braking is a concern, there are some really nice in line lever options that work well.

Is the 50/34 and 12-30 low enough for going up mountains?

depends on the mountain and the stud-muffin in the saddle..

For Me, it's a less than 1:1 ratio.. but people like those 50 34 doubles these days..

good luck .. you can always get off and Walk if you wear the sensible shoes..

Yes, the wheels and the crankset belong on a race bike, but are not right for loaded touring. I'd pass.

If you can get up to Taichung, seems like a shop there, Famous Cycles, would be worth the while. If you plan lots of riding and carrying 40 pounds of stuff, strong wheels and low gears are worth some searching!

Great feedback. The wheels are the biggest no-go but I would also have to swap out to a triple. I am not a stud muffin in the saddle but I'm not against walking. The frame sizing is a bit more problematic though. Bike shops simply do not carry many touring bikes in this price range in Taiwan. If they do it is usually 2 sizes too small but perhaps a trip to Taichung is in order.

The preference for flat bars or probably a trekking bar is that I don't use the drops. Maybe that will change but this bike will most likely have a flat/trekking bar.

"My" preference is for much lower gearing. I'd be looking for a triple on the front with a 22 tooth chain-ring.
For the rear I'd be wanting the lowest gearing (biggest chain-ring) available, say 34T or 36T (definitely 36T for 700c rims).
A spoke count of 36 minimum is what I'd consider ideal for myself.

The preference for flat bars or probably a trekking bar is that I don't use the drops. Maybe that will change but this bike will most likely have a flat/trekking bar.
I have drops, and I find that I never use them as a "position of comfort". I unconsciously switch between the tops and the hoods, and move back and forth a bit on the hoods when I tire of a single position. With that said, there is no better option than the drops when fighting a headwind, and I am damn glad that I have them when I need them.

But reaching to the far grip position on trekking bars, in a headwind and bending your elbows,
Is Good Enough.

It's not about the bars , but bending over more so you don't present as Much Chest area into the Air.

but Different Strokes, etc.

The Giant CT102 looks like it might be a nice and economical touring bike and probably easy to find though getting the right size is probably a challenge if you are not yourself sized like the typical customer!

http://www.giantcyclingworld.com/web/bikes_view.php?id=f57e8c99-d6c9-4c5f-931e-e9e01d6f2d1a

I'm not really looking for a $150 touring bike with Shimano Tourney gearing. It would be a nice town bike (theft is common) but it's very similar to what I already have.

I am surprised you can even get 35C tires on a racing wheel like that.

OP: Nothing ruins a tour quite like wheel problems. And with designer spokes like that, you would need to carry several with you.

I would pass for that and for gearing reasons alone.

If you can fit a rear rack on this it looks like a fun doitall bike.
http://www.giantcyclingworld.com/web/bikes_view.php?id=22e6d6c3-0518-4e4b-9f96-f29c0aedb6e7
It has a 46-36 cyclocross crankset with an 11-32 cassette, you would of course be better off with a triple.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/10/11/found-giant-anyroad-the-best-bike-they-make-that-you-cant-buy-in-america/

I talked to a friend last weekend and he told me about two bike shops that I should visit. One (or both?) can order order Surly, Salsa and possibly other frames but this bike will probably have to be a build since it's extremely unlikely they will have anything in stock. My friend said he had an incredibly frustrating experience getting a similar bike 7 yrs ago. Nearly every shop told him to just get a mt bike because they didn't really understand the concept of loaded touring. So that explains why there is nearly nothing available in their shops.

The Giant Anyroad is a pretty cool bike but there isn't even mounting for a rear rack AFAIK so it's out. I would also prefer not to have such a cool looking bike since it looks much more expensive than it is. My friends Surly (from France) honestly looks like a standard crappy town bike from a distance and would be significantly less likely to get stolen. Nothing against the looks of a Surly though.

Now I'll just need to go through a bike build with a broken English speaker.

Okay so I've talked briefly to a local dealer (a referral) and he actually speaks decent English. I will probably just get a Surly LHT frame since it for sure works and I'm not interested in any issues getting lost in translation. I'm still not sure what level of components I will get but it will likely be Sora/Deore/Tiagra. My understanding is that the Sora would be a 9 spd bike, Deore just switched from 9 to 10 and Tiagra would be a 10 spd unless old parts were found. Sora was recommended by my friend with a surly that did his own build several years ago here.

I have read up a lot on gearing (double vs triple thread) and now I have some idea what I want.

current bike gearing - Shimano Tourney 48/36/28 with a 14-28 rear cassette. This has a 25-85 gear inch range and a nice 9-11% gear difference where I typically ride (in the middle of both rings). This is not even close to low enough for loaded climbs of course.

I've found that setting up a 9 spd 12-34 cassette requires either a 15% difference (20-23 cog) in the middle of my riding range or a 21% jump into the granny gear. Is it possible to alter my riding/shifting to tolerate this granny gear jump or is that going to constantly aggravate me? Some gearing options that seemed reasonable using Sheldon Brown's calculator - 48/36/24 with a 9 spd 14-34 cassette (19-93 gear inches with 9-11% in the right spots), 42/32/22 with a 9spd 12-32 (19-95 gear inches and 9-11%) or a lot of options with a ten spd cassette and a triple. The budget on this is not unlimited on this and I'm already scared of the price tag but whatever.

I looked at doubles and the gearing worked (give up a little top end) but I would typically be on the big front ring and the wrong half of the cassette (or vice versa). I would also need to do multiple shifts when going between the front gears. So that definitely seems out as was already suggested.

Now I just need to figure out what good wheels are (other than 36 spokes) and if it's worth upgrading to disc brakes (probably 6-10,000km/yr). And probably a few other things...

If you really want flat bars for touring, I know bikexperts.com in Germany has trekking frames. I read that the Nashbar touring frameset was designed for drop bars but some say flat bars are acceptable. You could also check chainreactioncycles.com for the Ridley frames. Some were designed for flat bars (Tempo I think) and eyelets for backracks. The forks don't have eyelets though. If you want 26 inch wheels and the possibility of putting a suspension fork, Surly Troll.

OP: Really don't see much in that bike that smells like a good loaded touring bike... You will end up footing the bill for all the changes needed to adapt it and in the end you would still have a not-quite-right bike.

Recommend looking at some of the bikes that are purpose built for touring. Risking box of derision from the LHT haters, but you might consider that Surly, at least to weight the attributes it expresses. Bikesdirect.com has quite a few interesting ones.

Nashbar.com has some complete nice bikes and separate frames if you want to do it ala carte -- saw their aluminum touring frame in your size for USD$99 yesterday.

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_511239_-1___202337

Fork to match for $34;

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_511246_-1___202337

At USD $133 for a well built frame...kinda hard to go wrong. Most of the build stuff is also on sale right now. Check ebay for triple cranks and bottom brackets as there are a zillion new ones up right now for cheap. Most have buy it now also so you don't have to screw around in bidding games.

ksisler - I've moved on from the original bike that i was looking at. Pretty much every component was wrong (front rack, wheels, gearing). I'm probably doing a Surly or comparable frame (Salsa or ?) build. If I was in the US I would look more closely at bikesdirect or doing a nashbar build.

Oh, you're in Taiwan. In that case maybe you could take a look at zestbicycleshop on eBay. I bought one of their frames. Haven't built it up yet, but it looks very nice in person (WD Cycle Elite frame). They have frames from a bunch of manufacturers.

Okay so I've talked briefly to a local dealer (a referral) and he actually speaks decent English. I will probably just get a Surly LHT frame since it for sure works and I'm not interested in any issues getting lost in translation. I'm still not sure what level of components I will get but it will likely be Sora/Deore/Tiagra. My understanding is that the Sora would be a 9 spd bike, Deore just switched from 9 to 10 and Tiagra would be a 10 spd unless old parts were found. Sora was recommended by my friend with a surly that did his own build several years ago here.

I have read up a lot on gearing (double vs triple thread) and now I have some idea what I want.

current bike gearing - Shimano Tourney 48/36/28 with a 14-28 rear cassette. This has a 25-85 gear inch range and a nice 9-11% gear difference where I typically ride (in the middle of both rings). This is not even close to low enough for loaded climbs of course.

I've found that setting up a 9 spd 12-34 cassette requires either a 15% difference (20-23 cog) in the middle of my riding range or a 21% jump into the granny gear. Is it possible to alter my riding/shifting to tolerate this granny gear jump or is that going to constantly aggravate me? Some gearing options that seemed reasonable using Sheldon Brown's calculator - 48/36/24 with a 9 spd 14-34 cassette (19-93 gear inches with 9-11% in the right spots), 42/32/22 with a 9spd 12-32 (19-95 gear inches and 9-11%) or a lot of options with a ten spd cassette and a triple. The budget on this is not unlimited on this and I'm already scared of the price tag but whatever.

I looked at doubles and the gearing worked (give up a little top end) but I would typically be on the big front ring and the wrong half of the cassette (or vice versa). I would also need to do multiple shifts when going between the front gears. So that definitely seems out as was already suggested.

Now I just need to figure out what good wheels are (other than 36 spokes) and if it's worth upgrading to disc brakes (probably 6-10,000km/yr). And probably a few other things...

If you are building a bike, stick with a 9 speed system as the chain is cheaper than a 10 speed system. With a 10 speed SLX system, you need a Shimano HGX HG-74 chain to get shifting working smoothly and it's not a cheap chain. With a 9 speed system, you can run a SRAM chain which is cheaper than the HG-X HG-74 chain.

Having said that, a triple 48/36/24 is not much different than a 40T/24T touring double and the SLX 11-36 cassette. What the 40T/24T does is give you 1 top end gear from a 36T and 1 lower gear with the rear 36T on a 10 speed cassette if your 9 speed cassette is a 11-34. You'll be doing exactly the same shifting pattern as you would with a triple. I know because I have both systems running on both road bikes (Trek and Masi) right now as opposed to others who just speculate on charts. The only difference is the cadence will be slightly off, but that's slightly by a few RPMs. I have a shorter crankset on Masi to compensate this = no big difference at all compared to when I had a 50/34 originally with a 170mm crank. You won't even notice it unless a cadence sensor is installed on your bike if you are extremely anal about this. I started experimenting with a touring double with my folding touring bike, the Dahon Mu SL by converting the single crankset to a double so it becomes a 2x9. Inspired by the Salsa Vaya 2 SRAM 2x10 system and I loved it. Then I realized last year that I am beginning to see more tourists using a 2x9 or 2x10 system. The beauty of the touring double is its simplicity while only loosing out 1 or 2 top gears you won't use anyhow.
Typically having a 48T is only useful with a 11T or 13T rear, but what's alarming is that a triple promotes more cross chaining than a touring double because you can. You can commonly see some people after riding down a hill with a 48T mated to a rear 28 or 34T cog on a 11-28 or 11-34 cassette because it only takes 2 shifts as opposed to more than 2 for a better chain line. A touring double reduces this acute chain angle. And besides, the effect on 40T front and a 36T rear is not as high as a 48T and a 34T on a triple. People usually get lazy and shift the front only.

In regards to disc brakes. Unless you constantly ride in the mud and rain, normal brakes are just as good. Disc brakes need to be maintained and the disc checked for trueness. The disc usually does not stay very true after being engaged multiple times so it will rub against the brake pads and they go really fast if you use them a lot. Do you really need 36 spoke wheels if you are not carrying a lot of load? Hand built 32 spoke wheels are enough for a mild load. You travel light, so why the need for heavy wheels?

I made this list for the fun of it, if you want a list of parts to build. You can always find Shimano Deore derailleurs and shifters on sale so the overall value of this build could change dramatically. (And those are 32 hole wheels but you get the idea.)


1. WHEELSET
total: $95
Shimano Deore/Sun Rhyno Lite 26 inch wheelset $95
http://www.jensonusa.com/Mountain-Bike-Wheels/Shimano-Deore-DiscRhyno-Lite-Wheelset
2. FRAMESET
total: $155
Nashbar mountain frame $103
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_173009_-1___202337
Nashbar mountain suspension-corrected fork $52
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_174928_-1___
3. GROUPSET
total: $189
Falcon friction shifters $10
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=418214
Shimano Alivio FD-M412 front derailleur $16
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=407720
Shimano Alivio RD-M410 rear derailleur $32
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=31400
SRAM cassette 8 speed $22
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=19636
KMC 8 speed chain $15
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2443
Shimano Alivio crankset with chainguard $33
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=6812
Shimano Acera BR-M422 front brake $10
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=438353
Shimano Acera BR-M422 rear brake $10
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=438354
Shimano Acera BR-M421 brake levers $17
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=437092
Shimano BB-UN55 113x68mm bottom bracket $24
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=437166
4. OTHER PARTS
total: $218
tires
Michelin Tracker 26x1.95 $25.38 (x2 = $50.76)
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=712205
tubes
Michelin Protek $8.32 (x2 = $16.64) Shrader
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=720350
rim strips
XLC rim strip $4.16 (x2 = $8.32)
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=448695
pedals
Dimension translucent blue $12.50
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=721824
headset
FSA Ahead Orbit $26.99
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=34750
spacers
Origin8 five times 10mm $7.65
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=11166
stem
Dimension 80mm $19.52
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=732883
handlebars
Ramiko $13.98
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=804112
grips
Sunlite $3.99
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=509356
seatpost clamp
Sunlite $4.45
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=11850
seatpost
Sunlite $12.48
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=11900
saddle
Avenir 200 Series $22.01
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=507478
chainstay protector
Wheels Manufacturing $4.82
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=437965
spoke protector
Dimension $3.00 (this one 32H)
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=419814
wheel reflectors
Sunlite $2.49
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=5777
frame reflectors
Sunlite rear $1.83
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=5776
Sunlite front $2.49
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=5775
Jagwire S-hooks $5
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=413118
Total: $95 + $155 + $189 + $218 = $658

Then you can add fenders, backrack, bottle cages, kickstand, bell and lights.

Note that the last time I bought a frame from Nashbar, the derailleur hanger and cable guide came with it (actually, the Nashbar touring frame has a cable guide under the bottom bracket area). (If you're not using downtube shifters on the Nashbar touring frame, then you'd need cable housing stops.) The brake cables usually come with the brake levers. Brake pads usually come with brakes. Crank bolts often come with cranksets.

This Sunlite Gold Tec HD Tourer rack has a spot for a rear light $25:
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=430988

You can get a set of "locking" skewers to protect your wheels:
Sunlite 5mm hex skewer set $11.38
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=507604

If you wanted dynamo lights:
Shimano DH3N72 dynamo front wheel 26 inch $122
http://www.xxcycle.com/wheel-hub-dynamo-26-shimano-dh3d72-cl-exal-zx-19-559-19,,en.php
Busch & Muller Lumotec Lyt front light with standlight $30
http://www.xxcycle.com/front-light-lyt-178di-25-lux,,en.php
Busch & Muller D-Toplight Plus rear light $16
http://www.xxcycle.com/d-toplight-plus-80-mm-328alk-02-dynamo,,en.php
Or, you could order a dynamo wheel from the U.S.
Handspun Shimano Deore LX Mavic XM317 $155
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=707151

Some people use Kool Stop dual compound brake pads (obviously you need to pairs for two brakes, kind of expensive) $11.52 each pair:
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2497

I was looking at the disc brakes partly due to rim wear. I'm planning on taking enough trips where I could make it to 10,000+ km/yr. The extra stopping power is nice but a secondary consideration.

I think it all depends on what you want. Surly disc long haul trucker, Surly Troll, Ogre, Salsa Vaya, Fargo...

There's a Deore trekking disc groupset here for 310 Euro (VAT non applicable outside Europe): http://www.bike24.com/p211938.html

Although I posted the links to bike parts above for the fun of it, it's a coincidence that the frame, fork and even wheels in that list are disc-ready. (Whoops, realized those are 32 hole wheels, not 36.)

If you wanted to take the above list seriously, some people like the MKS touring pedals: http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=509776
even though it says compatible with toe straps, they might be compatible with these Wellgo pedal reflectors: http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=413323

Even if I would only hit myself in the shin once every twenty years with metal pedals, I find them pretty hard.

For those who would consider dynamo lights with a dynamo hub, I did list a Lumotec Lyt there but the standlight on a Lumotec Cyo is more powerful. Though it's more expensive and some say drivers flashed their lights thinking they had their brights on (with a Lumotec Cyo).

EDIT: Ooooh, look at this I found clipless pedals with reflectors! Shimano PD-T400 on sale for $29 U.S. (I've ordered from here before): http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/page.php?nom=PRODUITpp&key=18592

I was looking at the disc brakes partly due to rim wear. I'm planning on taking enough trips where I could make it to 10,000+ km/yr. The extra stopping power is nice but a secondary consideration.

Speaking only from ignorance wrt disc brake wheels I would think you're more likely to find replacement wheels over replacement rims and spokes in the hinterlands if you find yourself with a tweaked rim. Unless you are fixed on 700c wheels I find the 26" wheel LHT a more nimble ride than the 700c wheel version. Nimble as in better for tight maneuvering at low speeds with heavy load. The LHT are great for your 40lb load but if you were willing to drop the load to 30lbs and you want a 700c road bike when not touring the Surly CrossCheck is a good choice. If you need a bike for carrying 40lbs on bad roads I'd go to the 26" LHT with rhynolite wheels and 2.0 tires.

Of course I want a 30lb load instead of a 40 lb load but realistically with food, water, camping equipment and my camera stuff I'll come close to 40 lbs unless it's a 2 day weekend ride.

The 26" vs 700c comments are appreciated. It's been something that I've been thinking about. 26" wheels would be common with my town bike but that shouldn't be a big consideration.

I'm probably going the rim brake route to stay less complicated and worry about rim wear next year.

Right now I'm leaning towards the 24/36/48 triple with a 12-34 9 spd cassette. The 24/40 is still under consideration though.

So it turns out that my Surly supplier might not be able to get a Surly for about 6 months. His supplier submits orders in bulk (probably in 1-2 months) and it takes 3-4 months to fill the order. he's going to call and confirm though.

He sounded like he could get this and swap out parts for $400-500 less than the Surly. http://www.louisgarneausports.com/bike/louis/lgs-ct.html Saving that much money would be really nice but I don't want to compromise too much.

It doesn't have front rack mount but that only limits the racks that you can use. I would like to change the front triple to a (24/36/48) with a 9 spd 12-34 and swap the drop bars for a trekking bar and all of the brakes and shifters that go along with it. I really don't have a strong preference either way regarding wheel size. The 700c wheels are fine.

I will also talk with my bike friend since he knew of another dealer that might have something available (to order).