Fifty Plus (50+) - Bike fitting - what does it cover?

It has been impressed upon me both here and at a couple of bike shops I've been talking to that getting the right fit on whatever bike I buy is critically important.

I want to make sure I know what should be included in an initial fit; there seems to be a bit of variance between what shops include as part of the delivery of a new bike. I don't mind paying a bit extra for a good fitting, and suspect that a shop might be more inclined to take more care when the customer is paying extra for the fitting, than when it's simply part of the delivery.

On the other hand, I think that for the non-competitive rider one can quickly reach a point of diminishing returns in the cost/benefit equation.

At a guess, it would seem that the fitting might include:


Seat height
Seat angle
Seat fore-and-aft position
Handlebar position (would this be both height and for-and-aft position? Not sure I know how the fore-and-aft would be adjusted)
Handlebar width (do you have a choice when purchasing, or are you stuck with what you get?)
Pedal cleat position


Have I covered the important items?

From some of the reading I've done, and talking to a co-worker who is a marathoner and triathlete, the fitting methodology can get extremely sophisticated (and correspondingly expensive) but my sense is that this is for those that have money to burn or are looking for a competitive edge (I just want to feel good and go fast! :D ).

On the other hand, I think that for the non-competitive rider one can quickly reach a point of diminishing returns in the cost/benefit equation.

I'll let others comment on what is involved in the fitting process but I do want to comment on the above quote. I do not agree that the diminishing returns part applies, a good fit is a good fit whether your riding in the tour or do three 20 mile rides a week. I don't want the diminishing returns part pop up 15 miles into my 20 mile ride in the form of knee, ITB, shoulder, hand, hamstring or any other pain when another $50-100 could have taken care of it.

If your not familiar with adjusting your bike to fit you, then I would call on some help from your LBS. Or you can get alot of help online and on this forum. First you need to make it clear to them exactly what you want, either a performance / competition fit, or a comfort less intrusive fit. In all my years of riding, I have found that there is a difference in setting up for maximum performance or a more leisurely approach. I have always used the knowledge I learned from others and more recently online, to adjust my own bike for comfort and preventing injury. It does take time and alot of trial and error. You simply cannot go to a shop and get fitted then take off and expect it to work for you. You will find after some riding that you either hurt somewhere or are uncomfortable somehow and start fiddling with the adjustments until you get it right for you and that simply negates your original fitting. So it all depends on what you need.

I think you have it pretty well covered. Handlebar location is set by the stem length, angle, and spacers. Lots of adjustments there. The overall goal is to get you balanced and centered on the bike.

I do not agree that the diminishing returns part applies, a good fit is a good fit whether your riding in the tour or do three 20 mile rides a week.
Point taken. I guess I was speaking pretty much from an efficiency/performance standpoint, rather than comfort/injury standpoint. I understand that you can spend $500 or more on a fitting (my co-worker did just that for a dynamic fitting that took several hours!). But it's really hard for me to see how I could justify that kind of expense if I can get a good (not perfect) fitting for less than half that price (and hopefully MUCH less! :) )

I don't think for a person buying their first road bike that there can be a "perfect" fitting.

Point taken. I guess I was speaking pretty much from an efficiency/performance standpoint, rather than comfort/injury standpoint. I understand that you can spend $500 or more on a fitting (my co-worker did just that for a dynamic fitting that took several hours!). But it's really hard for me to see how I could justify that kind of expense if I can get a good (not perfect) fitting for less than half that price (and hopefully MUCH less! :) )

I don't think for a person buying their first road bike that there can be a "perfect" fitting.

Yeah, I agree. So your coworker, $500, your kidding right?

If your not familiar with adjusting your bike to fit you, then I would call on some help from your LBS.

Absolutely. I could futz with it for quite awhile before I got it in the ballpark, or I can get (and learn from) some professional input.


make it clear to them exactly what you want, either a performance / competition fit, or a comfort less intrusive fit.

Moving from a hybrid to a road bike, I'm going to be conservative on the comfort side of the equation. Also, I can't see getting a perfect fit on my first road bike no matter how much I spend, as my definition of "perfect" is bound to evolve, especially in my first riding season. I think that the best I can hope for is a fit that is safe (won't cause injury) and initially comfortable enough to allow me to settle into it and decide what fine-tuning the fit needs. As you wisely point out, it has to be a cut-and-try process, and part of what I hope to gain from a professional fitting (whether I spend $50 or $250) is knowledge of what the variables are and their effect so that I can tweak the fitting to my preference over time.

Absolutely. I could futz with it for quite awhile before I got it in the ballpark, or I can get (and learn from) some professional input.



Moving from a hybrid to a road bike, I'm going to be conservative on the comfort side of the equation. Also, I can't see getting a perfect fit on my first road bike no matter how much I spend, as my definition of "perfect" is bound to evolve, especially in my first riding season. I think that the best I can hope for is a fit that is safe (won't cause injury) and initially comfortable enough to allow me to settle into it and decide what fine-tuning the fit needs. As you wisely point out, it has to be a cut-and-try process, and part of what I hope to gain from a professional fitting (whether I spend $50 or $250) is knowledge of what the variables are and their effect so that I can tweak the fitting to my preference over time.

You're on the right track. It will evolve over time as you ride the new bike and you may find yourself changing or upgrading some of it's features and components that in itself further lengthens your set up time. You'll get it, Best of luck.

Yeah, I agree. So your coworker, $500, your kidding right?
Heh, heh... no.

This girl is in her late 40's, unmarried, no children and has money coming out of her ears. She's run a marathon on every continent - yes, including Antarctica. When she decided to add triathlons to her competitive regimen, she went at it like she does everything else - full speed.

I understand that they take videos of the rider from multiple angles while riding the bike in a rigid stand under varying loads, consult with the rider, review the videos, adjust, rinse & repeat until they've gotten every erg of energy from the rider's body to the wheels. Sounds like an amazing process...

Heh, heh... no.

This girl is in her late 40's, unmarried, no children and has money coming out of her ears. She's run a marathon on every continent - yes, including Antarctica. When she decided to add triathlons to her competitive regimen, she went at it like she does everything else - full speed.

I understand that they take videos of the rider from multiple angles while riding the bike in a rigid stand under varying loads, consult with the rider, review the videos, adjust, rinse & repeat until they've gotten every erg of energy from the rider's body to the wheels. Sounds like an amazing process...

Interesting, I never knew anything like that existed.

Bike fits do work for some but I would be a bit cautious in paying serious money for one at the stage you are at right now. This will be your first road bike and the bike should be of a size that will fit you. By that I mainly mean that the saddle will be able to get to the right position and that the bars will be the right height for you as a "Novice" road rider -and be the right distance from the saddle to give you the correct length of cockpit.

That is for how you are NOW

Your body will change and adapt and what fits now- could be wrong in a few months. Doesn't happen to everyone but the first criteria is the correct size frame. Saddle height- fore and aft position and saddle tilt comes in next. That may change a bit over time but not much. Reach to the bars and bar height could change greatly though.

The LBS should set these basics up for you when you buy the bike. If they don't then it is not the LBS for you.

But other items like bar width- stem length and changes to the initial fitting can only be found as you adapt to road riding. Then in a few years time and you need the ultimate in performance- It might be worth paying for a professional fitting. On my second bike- the LBS set the bike up for me and changed one item which was the bar stem length. Then sent me out for a ride and I was gone for a couple of hours. Went back to the shop and they asked what needed changing and my reply was nothing. Since then I have modified the fit but that is due to me changing my riding style as I aged/improved/progressed.

Bike fitting often times does NOT look seriously at whether a stem swap is useful. Handlebar reach is, imho, THE critical thing. Seat height is easy. Fore/aft isn't as critical as many people think and people often move their butt back and forth quite a bit but how your seat position relates to your reach is really important to allow you to NOT have too much pressure on your arms or to be too bunched up. Most shops are also ill equipped to get your foot in a perfect alignment. Those are the two things that distinguish a professional bike fitting from an average one; getting the cockpit perfect and the foot angle (with orthotics if needed) correct. We have no local bike shops that do a serious, professional fitting and that's true for most small towns so the best one can do is try to educate oneself (like you're doing).
Most bikes come with a standard handlebar width determined by the frame size. It's probably reasonable for most people to go with that and see if it's going to work unless you are unusually built for your height. Mtn bike handlebars can simply be hacksawed (if not carbon) to length.

Bike fitting often times does NOT look seriously at whether a stem swap is useful.
The bike I've been looking at (the Specialized Secteur) has a stem that is reportedly highly adjustable, so I'm betting that the stock stem will be adequate to be starting out with.

The bike I've been looking at (the Specialized Secteur) has a stem that is reportedly highly adjustable, so I'm betting that the stock stem will be adequate to be starting out with.Steve - If you're getting a Specialized, see if they're a BG Fit shop (Specialized's proprietary fit program). The shop will probably do a basic fit as part of the bike purchase; you might get a discount off the price of a more involved fit. If so, it's money well spent. As for the stem, it's common for a shop to swap out stems as needed - they usually have a box full of them.

Around here, an involved fit costs ~$250. Some cyclists (not me) pay more than that for a jersey. That's what I paid, and it's the most cost-effective investment I've made in cycling.

I spent $150 for all of the above. I also had to pay extra for a new stem. It all made a huge difference. I was "done" riding until I got that fit. I went to an outfit that came recommended by a friend.

Steve - If you're getting a Specialized, see if they're a BG Fit shop
They are, and I believe that one of them offers a 1/2 off on the $200 BG Fit service. The $250 service (according to their website) is for the triathlon fitting using aero bars.

Everyone has given you some pretty good advice here about fittings so I'll throw in my two cents. If you plan on doing some serious riding, don't skimp on the fitting or the price because you will get what you pay for. I ride between 5 to 6,000+ miles a year and a LBS initial fitting just isn't going to cut it when you put that much time in the saddle. Personally, I opted for a Retul fitting and it was the best $250.00 I ever spent on cycling, other than my bike. I don't race or do tri's but I do a lot of hard riding and I have not been dissatisfied with the fitting process. Find a system that will meet your riding needs and if your riding needs change, find a new system that will work for you.

Edit: I would also advise that you check out all the different fitting types and learn as much as you can about them. Don't just leave it to the guy behind the counter to tell you what sounds good. Also, find out as much as you can about the fitter. Find out how many fittings he has done and if he is the only one in the shop that does the fittings. I realize that depending on where you live that some fitting systems are not available, but the better prepared you are when you go for your fit, the less chance there will be in getting ripped off and get a poor fit.

I can't see getting a perfect fit on my first road bike no matter how much I spend, as my definition of "perfect" is bound to evolve, especially in my first riding season. I think that the best I can hope for is a fit that is safe (won't cause injury) and initially comfortable enough to allow me to settle into it and decide what fine-tuning the fit needs. As you wisely point out, it has to be a cut-and-try process, and part of what I hope to gain from a professional fitting (whether I spend $50 or $250) is knowledge of what the variables are and their effect so that I can tweak the fitting to my preference over time.

You seem to have the right attitude going into this. And your expectations seem grounded in reality too. Providing that you and your fitter speak the same language, things should turn out just fine.

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack. . .

I have several bikes. I was fit to one of them a couple of years ago and guessed on the rest. Anyone ever take several bikes in to get set up when they are fitted? I am casually wondering how much extra they will charge. I suppose I can ask a bike shop or two.

I recently had a BG fit on my new Roubaix. I rode it first for a few months, including one century before getting the fit ( I got a much simpler free fit when I purchased the bike). The fit ran a fine line between making improvements to my set up, to upselling me on equipment. Some of the changes proposed would have cost several hundred dollars for a a few millimeters of change that would likely not have any impact on someone with my fitness level ( or lack thereof). As it was, we swapped out for a new seat, new shorter handlebars, and inserts in my shoes, and made some adjustments in seat height, and position, clip position and handlebar position. Since then I've had no more hotspots on my feet, rode 50 miles last weekend with no rear end issues, and no longer get a sore Rear, so the fit did make some significant improvements that are worth the cost to me.

I have several bikes. I was fit to one of them a couple of years ago and guessed on the rest. Anyone ever take several bikes in to get set up when they are fitted? I am casually wondering how much extra they will charge. I suppose I can ask a bike shop or two.
I haven't done that, but I've taken the measurements from the bike I was fitted on and transferred them to my other bikes. It works for me.

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack. . .

I have several bikes. I was fit to one of them a couple of years ago and guessed on the rest. Anyone ever take several bikes in to get set up when they are fitted? I am casually wondering how much extra they will charge. I suppose I can ask a bike shop or two.

Yes. I did this a year ago October. It was the best thing I've done for myself in a good long time.

I had four bikes. My position was just a bit different on each one. Not so bad that any of them didn't "fit", but different enough that each one engaged my muscles differently, so switching between them meant breaking-in my legs again. Beyond that, one was easier in the drops, another made me feel cramped, a third felt too stretched, etc.

One bike was pretty close to what I thought was ideal, but still not quite right. We started with that one. Five hours later, including a couple of rides and a trip to a running store for sports orthotics, we agreed that bike was right on the money. They documented the position, and we moved on to the second bike.

I rode them for two weeks to be certain that was the way I wanted them. Then I took the other two in.

I don't recall the breakout, but between the four bikes, two stems, and tax, it was just over $400.

If you have a tape measure (preferably metric, I bought one last time I was in Canada) drywall square (a big, giant T-square used by drywallers), a stand of some sort that keeps both wheels on the ground, and a patient helper, you can transfer the measurements yourself. I have none of these things, so the shop did it for me. See http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/road-postioning-chart

Interesting on fitting for a bike. I now wonder if my lbs is for hicks. No one has said "Lets fit the bike(or any item) to you". "If it feels comfortable to you" and "We can justify it anyway you want" are two common responses I get from them. Maybe I am not spending enough money there???

Have 3 road bikes and never had a professional fit on any of them. The first bike- Boreas- took a bit of time to set up and to an extent was trial and error.Second bike and on assembly with the mechanic at the LBS I had the critical measurements to guide assembly for fit. Only part that I changed was the seatpost to the same as the one on Boreas as it is an inline seatpost that allowed the saddle and post to be interchangeable between the two bikes (Same diameter and similar saddles by the way) But over the years those two bikes have been set up differently. Boreas is the "Go faster" bike with a more stretched out and lower bar position and the TCR is now set up for hills with a slightly higher bar and saddle 1/2 cm further forward.

When I got the Pinnie last year I got a frame with the same seat and head angles- 1 cm shorter Top tube and 1cm longer on bar stem. Assembled it with the bars low but they got raised a bit for the use it is put to.

So 3 bikes- each has its own strong points and each is basically the same but with subtle changes for the use that the bike is put to. And each is comfortable although I would not like to do a hilly century on Boreas due to the gearing and the low bars.

One of the things that I'm picking up here is that I might want to opt for the less-expensive of the two models I'm considering, and put the $200 difference toward the cost for the fitting and any parts that need to be replaced (handlebars, stem, seat) in that process. I hadn't thought about the fact that I might be looking at replacing parts before I'm even out of the store! :notamused:

I think others have mentioned it as well, but I would not get a fitting without putting some miles on the bike first.

One of the things that I'm picking up here is that I might want to opt for the less-expensive of the two models I'm considering, and put the $200 difference toward the cost for the fitting and any parts that need to be replaced (handlebars, stem, seat) in that process. I hadn't thought about the fact that I might be looking at replacing parts before I'm even out of the store! :notamused:
Steve - Don't get too uptight about this. An LBS often has other parts they swap in exchange for the part on your bike, or they'll give you credit against the cost of a new part. This isn't an absolute; you may have to spend more on parts, but they're parts you would've had to buy later anyway.

Manufacturers have it just about right on the components they supply on bikes. A Small frame will fit the smaller rider and parts supplied on that bike will be sized towards the smaller rider. Same on the medium and larger sizes.So cranks-Bars-stem would be appropriate to the size of the frame and unless you are an odd shape-I doubt that these would be necessary to change initially. The LBS should fit you on saddle position and bar height and although you may have to change this a bit yourself to fit better- until you have ridden the bike for a while you won't know what will be the correct fit for you. The same goes for a Professional fit. What "May" fit now- will not in a few months down the line.

So Might I suggest that you get the LBS to fit the bike to you initially on saddle position and bar height and be prepared as you get used to the bike to modify those positions yourself. Then once you have adjusted the body to cycling- found out that the bike is really uncomfortable or otherwise- Then go for the pro fit--If you think you need it.

Even after the fit, you'll end up doing some tweaking anyhow.

I recently had a BG fit on my new Roubaix. I rode it first for a few months, including one century before getting the fit ( I got a much simpler free fit when I purchased the bike). The fit ran a fine line between making improvements to my set up, to upselling me on equipment. Some of the changes proposed would have cost several hundred dollars for a a few millimeters of change that would likely not have any impact on someone with my fitness level ( or lack thereof). As it was, we swapped out for a new seat, new shorter handlebars, and inserts in my shoes, and made some adjustments in seat height, and position, clip position and handlebar position. Since then I've had no more hotspots on my feet, rode 50 miles last weekend with no rear end issues, and no longer get a sore Rear, so the fit did make some significant improvements that are worth the cost to me.

In some years I've had to optimize my fit for longer and longer distances as I worked up to a tour. Millimeters did end up mattering. My main guides were the Zinn books, the Peter White Cycles paper, and various ideas read on BF and iBob. This year I think I'm going to get a good re-fit.

Why your millimeters cost hundreds of dollars rather than tens? I think that's another issue entirely. I agree with drawing a line on the cost, but it is a judgement call and the tradeoffs might be real. I think if you're going out to do centuries with greater and greater frequency, in the long term the millimeters are more likely to matter.

The store I worked at in my youth( many years ago) had a number of top
shelf cyclists and athletes affiliated with it. The prospect of proper fit was a key in our sales. No Fit Kit, body scanners etc. A very low tech, straight forward approach to fit. And it worked very well.

Fast forward to the systems of fitting bicycles. The basic premise is that you match the size,style and array of components to match your body dimensions. The fit systems quantify the numbers based upon sampling many (1000's) of test subjects.

The crux of the matter is that no two people are the same dimensionally.

I would offer some basic fit guidelines:

1. Position the cleat on the shoe to interface with the pedals to maximize efficient and smooth 360 degree rotation. Generally, the ball of the great toe is positioned directly over the spindle of the pedal. With modern pedal and cleat systems, there is generally a bit of float, but this position is critical for long term comfort and efficiency of pedaling.

If you are using tow clips, be certain to use the correct length and focus on keeping the proper position.

2. Saddle position is next. Up / down , forward and back, height and tilt. All of the saddle adjustments effect the pedaling dynamic.



Theoretically, there is one perfect position (mechanically) for a given persons body to fit on a given bike. Over time, a person may change, add or loose weight, the aches and pains of aging, etc. These will all contribute to the ultimate final fit. Comfort is the result of a well fit bike. This whether it is comfortable for racing, performance or just getting into
the fresh air.

I guess that I have ridden over 1000 bikes in my career, and every once in a while there is one where the fit is dramatically different. The perfect fit if you like. The sensation in one of riding with perceptible ease and a noticeable increase in pedaling efficiency.

3. The final element of fit is bar and stem related. First, look at the design of the handlebar, correct width and reach for you and your application. Note that there are many ways to "adjust the bars" to fit. Width, reach, shape are all part of the decision process.

The old school approach was, from the saddle and hands on the brake lever hoods, looking down the bar should basically eclipse the front hub.
Perfect method - maybe not, but a pretty good place to start.


Visually, the brake levers would be in the same place, but with the different dimensions common on the two sides of the human body, proper fit may require a different position of each lever on the radius of the bar.

That's it .

Feet - butt - hands , in that order.

My findings are that if you alter one element, it may require changing all of them to a degree. I have found that if you do them in a different order, the result is that you go back and tweek the other two elements each time a change is made.

One other point. I have found that as cyclists change( + or -) the fit may/will change as well. More weight up front may require a slightly shorter stem or a change of the handlebar position. A increase in the level fitness may affect saddle position and stem length, etc.

Fit is a dynamic element of cycling. I have a custom frame, using the same
drive system and components . I find that early in the year I am more comfortable with one set of adjustments, and that I will adjust them through the year. This is not because I did not hit the spec right at the beginning, it follows that level of conditioning and other - non static- factors are affecting riding efficiency and comfort.

100bikes, you just summed up everything so well in your reply. Thanks for sharing the expertise and experience with the 50+ gang, here. Your statement that fit is a dynamic part (element, as you said) hit the nail right square on the head.

Bill

Agree and why I go in every 6 months to have my Retul fitting adjusted.

Just had my fitting on my"new" '92 Serotta Colorado ll this afternoon. I had built it up this Fall and have ridden it quite a few miles thinking I can do the fitting myself. Well after ending the outdoor ridding and putting it on the trainer I was REALLY uncomfortable. I have a Brooks B17N saddle and I just started thinking "It's too narrow". So this week I made the decision to get a fitting. The custom shop where we bought our Co-Motion Tandem was my destination. In my mind I am thinking I need a shorter stem, the saddle needs to go back,etc.. So after I put the bike on the trainer and ride for a bit the "tweaking" started. The saddle came up by 1.5CM, the handle bars were rotated abit, the saddle was moved forward,not backward as I was thinking.
The result was felt immediately!
So for the $100 I get lifetime, on this frame, re-fittings. BTW we bought my wife a new road bike this Summer and basically went from the LBS to having her fitted.
So if you are on the fence about spending the money, just go for it. Your body will thank you!

Tandem Tom,

Where'd you go to get fitted? I'm in Ann Arbor/Detroit area, but I'll consider fitters within about 100 miles drive.

The name of the shop is Hub Bub. You can check them out on FB.

Where'd you go to get fitted? I'm in Ann Arbor/Detroit area, but I'll consider fitters within about 100 miles drive.

Do a search for Two Wheel Tango, Fraser Bicycles, Cycletherapy, and Kinetic Systems. They all do fittings but there are probably others - I'm looking for a good lbs myself.

Has anyone had a fitting experience in CT that they could share. I'd like to find some place that comes recommended by a BF member. I've always set up my bikes based on books I have at home. Been pretty happy but you don't know what you don't know so I'm open to experimentation. BTW this has been a great thread. Thanks to all.

I'm very familiar with TWT and Kinetic Systems. I got good advice at KS, but not a full fitting. They do a "by eye and by judgement," based on the owner's extremely deep experience. His main advice ended up to do yoga to learn how to open up my body (improve joint flexibility and knowledge of proper alignment). I got a great fitting at a shop that is now gone, formerly in Saline, MI.

I may try TWT (again!). The first time I did not feel the worker understood what I was saying. I certainly didn't think he was talking to me.

I have a new frame, a custom but not built for me, and transferring over the contact points from other bikes, one is the Saline fitting, has not worked well enough.

I don't know much about Fraser. Cycletherapy has been recommended by some strong tri riders. I'm more on the total comfort side since I want to work up to starting a brevet series.

On one bike I was very successful with a self-fitting. My main guides for doing that were Zinn's "A Cycling Primer," the article "How to Fit a Bicycle" on the Peter White Cycles site, and an Ebook from RoadBikeRider.com "Bike Fitting" by Arnie Baker. All excellent references, that are worth checking out. Bear in mind, they do not give identical advice.

I'm also finding that transferring that info (set up three years ago, so body is different) to the new frame is not working as well as I hoped.

This (http://bicycleseast.com/articles/professional-bicycle-fitting-pg178.htm) seems to be reasonable. I just don't have any experience with professional fitting.

Is proper bike fit important especially on a DF bike----------in a word yes. Is "proper fit" over hyped-------in a word yes.

Lets take just one fit measurement. The super educated fit specialist recommend that the saddle to pedal length be .899% of your inseam. Do you understand that the last decimal 9 represents roughly .003 inches? That is the thickness of a piece of typing paper. To show you just how silly that is, think of the fact that the difference in the thickness of cycling shorts would throw that distance way off.

I use this form from the Park Tool site to record the specs and to keep track of changes. It will give you a good idea of what is adjusted and how to measure it.

http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/i-gwFmWW5/0/O/i-gwFmWW5.jpg


Here is a link to download it

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/road-postioning-chart
I use this and set every bike up the same using a mm tape.

Lets take just one fit measurement. The super educated fit specialist recommend that the saddle to pedal length be .899% of your inseam. Do you understand that the last decimal 9 represents roughly .003 inches? That is the thickness of a piece of typing paper. To show you just how silly that is, think of the fact that the difference in the thickness of cycling shorts would throw that distance way off.

That's hilarious.

It seems to me that one of the benefits of a good professional fit is learning what a properly set up bike feels like. There are things that I might put up with not realizing that they're correctable.

Steve

Even with the MOST correct bike fitting, people need to remember that a DF bike will NEVER be pain free on long rides.
Wittness that an ever larger number of long distance riders are going to recumbents. Being free of pain is the major reason for this.

Will proper fit improve a persons cycling experience probably. But people that say "proper fit" will remove all pain from a DF bike reminds of the the people that tell me that instant coffee "tasted just as good as fresh perked"!!!!!!

I hope this isn't leading into another DF vs bent fiasco.

Even with the MOST correct bike fitting, people need to remember that a DF bike will NEVER be pain free on long rides.
Wittness that an ever larger number of long distance riders are going to recumbents. Being free of pain is the major reason for this.

Will proper fit improve a persons cycling experience probably. But people that say "proper fit" will remove all pain from a DF bike reminds of the the people that tell me that instant coffee "tasted just as good as fresh perked"!!!!!!

I hear ya - I have a Lightning Stealth that I rode and enjoyed for many years, so I do have the measure of "zero discomfort" biking! ;). The only issue I had with it is that it's a bit "tall" for me. The outseam size is fine, but it's a little unstable at slow speeds, and because my legs are too short to safely and gracefully come to a complete stop I didn't feel confident riding it in any kind of traffic, whether pedestrians, roller-bladers, motor vehicles etc. and eventually switched back to the DF. Had I bought something more suited to my physique, I might still be riding it.

That said, I have to say that having gone both ways, I find that I prefer the physicality of riding the DF over the recumbent. It feels like I have more of my body engaged. This is strictly a personal preference, and something that I observed even during the 8 years that the recumbent was my only bike; I always felt like only part of my body was involved with the process. I like having a choice when climbing of downshifting and spinning, or up-shifting and standing.

Oh - and I still have a yen for a tadpole trike - those are really a blast to ride!!

I hope this isn't leading into another DF vs bent fiasco.
Not from my end - I think recumbents are great. As I just posted, I've done it both ways, and IMO there is no reason for anyone to disparage another for their choice of bikes. There are trade-offs for every type of bike, whether comparing MTB's to road bikes or DF's to recumbents, and we make a choice depending on our personal preferences, unless we're one of the fortunate ones that seem to have a different bike for every occasion!! :D

I would take 100bikes' statement about fit being dynamic another step. I think for a new rider on a new bike fit can be variable over a few days. You could spend some money for what is a "great fit" on Monday and by Saturday it's not such a great fit anymore. The are numerous reasons for this possibility including how quickly your body and fitness adjust to the activity. Even beyond this simple reason, you may find (especially as one ages) that on different days, different parts of the body function in different ways. (As an example, there are days when my lower back screams to be stretched more. On those days, the "great fit" means lowering the bars 5 to 10 mm.) All of this is to say, that I'd recommend getting a basic free fit from the shop, ride the bike a few weeks, and keep track of what feels good and what does not. This information can then be used to make small adjustments by you, knowledgeable others, or even your LBS. Personally, I don't think the investment of a professional fit would have done me much good or mattered that much the first 6 to 12 months after I started riding again.

I think for a new rider on a new bike fit can be variable over a few days. You could spend some money for what is a "great fit" on Monday and by Saturday it's not such a great fit anymore...I'd recommend getting a basic free fit from the shop, ride the bike a few weeks, and keep track of what feels good and what does not. This information can then be used to make small adjustments by you, knowledgeable others, or even your LBS.
That reflects much of what's been going through my head. From what has been said here, and elsewhere, a professional fit includes some schedule of adjustments after the initial fitting, but I'm sure there is a limit to that. I believe one of the shops I'm talking to stated a policy of 50% off on a professional fitting with the purchase of a new bike. A pretty good deal, but one that I might like to cash in on a few months after getting on the road with a basic free fit (and maybe some experimentation on my own), rather than immediately upon purchase.

dumb question: WTF's a DF?

A "Diamond Frame" Bicycle.