Road Cycling - Wheel truing

I need some advice about wheel truing. How often do you find that you have to true your rear wheel? I ride 550 miles per month, mostly on local country roads which are in a very poor state of repair. I weigh 170 pounds. I have Mavic cxp 21 wheels with Shimano 105 hubs and 9 -speed cassette. I find that I have to be very vigilant about the true of my rear wheel. Since I got my own truing stand and true my wheels properly I have not had much of a problem with broken spokes like I used to. I haven't kept an log on this, but it seems as though I have to true my rear wheel about every 3 weeks. Does that seems excessive?

Rich

Yes. Way excessive.

You may have some rim damage, and consequently require some serious tension imbalances to get the wheel true.

At the risk of inciting some flamage, and hopefully, promoting some good discussion, here's my opinion. I still don't build my own wheels, but based on my experience with local wheelsmiths, a good build working with an undamaged rim is a once-a-year thing. In that time, you might develop 1/8" of wobble. (This is for road-riding, and assumes no significant trauma, like a wreck or serious pothole.) Once a year, I get the wheels professionally re-trued and specifically ask the builder to retension the spokes. Generally, he'll throw it up on the trueing stand while I wait and do a quick inspection for mechanical damage (hops, dents, warpage, etc.), and give me the prognosis based on the condition of what I've got.

If your roads really are so bad that you can't avoid major potholes, etc., I'd recommend going to a heavy, fairly bomb-proof configuration, like a 36 spoke Mavic MA-3.

The bottom line is that a correctly built wheel shouldn't need very much attention. Just because a wheel is true does not mean it is correctly built. And a correctly built wheel is a very strong.

FWIW, my weight fluctuates between 170 & 180 lbs. My road bikes, since time out of mind, have been equipped w/32 spoke Mavic Open Pros, DT or Wheelsmith spokes, Ultegra or 105 hubs. Commuter has 36 spoke Mavic MA-2s (no longer available, replaced by MA-3s), DT spokes, and whatever kind of hub I happen to get ahold of.

I agree that once every three weeks is more often than what I experience. Of course, maybe you just love trueing your wheel and your idea of a true wheel is more stringent than others.

I ride bad roads here too. I have to true my wheels maybe once every six months or so, maybe less.

One thing that can happen that a lot of people don't notice is that the spoke tensions can change on you without making the wheel fall out-of-true. A lot of folks just spin their wheel to see if it looks true without plucking the spokes now and again to see if the tensions are correct.

If you are needing to re-true every 3 weeks, you either have a poorly made wheel, or are riding over way too much rough terrain.

When truing a wheel, always remember the cardinal rule:
DO NOT ADD TO OR SUBTRACT FROM THE TOTAL TENSION OF THE SPOKES!!!
Anything you add one place, you must subtract elsewhere. There is also radial truing, along with lateral truing. Don't forget that!

Thanks, folks, this has been very helpful. I know that I need to be more careful about checking the tensioning on a regular basis. I don't think that my wheels were well built from the very start. It's a great bike other than this. Several reviewers at roadbikereviews.com said that they had similar problems and one recommended having the wheels rebuilt.

I tend to want to be self-reliant, so I have been trying to handle the problem myself. I really don't know any wheelbuilders or a wrench I would really trust with this problem. People I have encountered in group rides tend to be snobby toward my bike, so I haven't wanted to ask for recommendations. A few months ago, I broke a spoke on a group ride and while I was doing a quick fix for the problem someone suggested that I should really solve the problem by buying a new bike! Now that wasn't very helpful since my bike was only 15 months old at the time. Around folks with money to burn and attitudes like that, I tend not to want to ask for recommendations.

I just read about this co-op in Santa Cruz where professional wrenches donate their expertise while you work on your own bike in an equipped facility. That may be the way for me.

Thanks, again.

Rich

Originally posted by Stinger9oh
A few months ago, I broke a spoke on a group ride and while I was doing a quick fix for the problem someone suggested that I should really solve the problem by buying a new bike! Now that wasn't very helpful since my bike was only 15 months old at the time. Around folks with money to burn and attitudes like that, I tend not to want to ask for recommendations.Rich

I know some bike shop owners who would like to hang out with your friends.

Um, well, meaning no disrespect, er, uh, but, um, your bike isn't, well, um, like, a Wal-Mart Huffy, or anything, is it? I mean, ya gotta start somewhere, but in some cases, you can't expect much. I'm thinking if you had the good sense to get trueing stand, well, never mind. Anyhow...


Originally posted by Stinger9oh
I tend to want to be self-reliant, so I have been trying to handle the problem myself. I really don't know any wheelbuilders or a wrench I would really trust with this problem.
I hear ya. I do 90% of everything myself. And the only reason I haven't tackled wheels yet is because I have access to a couple of outstanding wheelbuilders whose skills it would take me years to match. A good, trustworthy, wrench is a valuable commodity. Treat him/her nice!

So, I think you need to shop for a wrench. Just because one is doing work gratis doesn't mean s/he's any good. I'd suggest taking your wheels to a couple of shops, tell them what you told us, and ask them if they would look at your wheels. (Go at a time when they aren't real busy...not Saturday afternoon.) I'd expect the wrench to put them in a trueing stand, inspect true, rim condition, and feel spoke tension, all of which will take 15-30 seconds a wheel, while you watch. Around here, just getting a wheel trued/retensioned will run around $5-$15 (my shop does it free if you bought the bike from them). If they find other things wrong, they will tell you, and tell you what it will take to fix. It is possible that it is a poor quality wheel, and "only so much can be done." If they tell you it's a simple true and re-tension, and the price is within reason, get it done and see how it holds up. That's the cost of finding out what kind of work they do! Anything more serious and you can beg off... "Okay, well, let me think about it... I might just get some new wheels, blah blah." and try another shop and see what they do and say. Likewise if they act like a bunch of @ssholes, and say things like "you should replace your cheap bike." Shops like that don't get my business.

When it's all said and done, take your business to the place you were most impressed with. If the finished product measures up, great! If not, back to the drawing board...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by roadbuzz
[B]Um, well, meaning no disrespect, er, uh, but, um, your bike isn't, well, um, like, a Wal-Mart Huffy, or anything, is it?

No, it isn't. It's a 1999 Schwinn SuperSport with Shimano 105 gruppo. With the exception of the problem we have been discussing, my bike has been very good to me.

Rich

If I am not mistaken, your bike came with machine made wheels. That doesn't mean that they are bad, just not as well made or reliable as hand made wheels. Also, givin the age of your bike and the amount of riding you do, it would be my guess that you are due a new wheel build. Find a good wheelbuilder in your area, purchase a nice set of rims (mavic open pro's are very reliable) and have your hubs relaced with some good spokes (DT 14/15 guage and alloy nips should be more than fine given your weight and mileage).

Once built and properly tensioned, a good set of hand built wheels should give you 3 years of reliable service. Keep in mind that after they break in, they will require a couple re tension/truing sessions in the 1st month, they should only require retruing every few months, 4-6. That is of course unless you hit alot of pot holes, bunnyhop railroad tracks (I love doin that!) or ride off the side of the road accidentally.

just my opinion =)

chuck

Very helpful info. Thanks.

Rich

Originally posted by Stinger9oh It's a 1999 Schwinn SuperSport with Shimano 105 gruppo.[/B]
Good! Regardless of the comments of your mis-informed bike club cohorts, your wheels are almost certainly decent quality.

when you are true-ing your wheels, do you also test with that dishing gadget?! as i understand it, if you aren't doing that then you are not completely trueing a wheel.
but hey, other than that i know nothing about trueing wheels. thats why i use: mavic open pro's. bomb-proof.

I'm currently riding a set of CXP 21s w/ 105 hubs, also. I bought them new last summer. They might have 1,000 miles on them over the last 10 mos. I trued them up last night for the first time. The rear had a 1/8" wobble in one place and the front had a couple of smaller wobbles.

They are fine, machine-built wheels, but will require more attention than hand-built wheels.

One of the first things I learned as an XC racer is that machine-built wheels are inexpensive - even with decent components - but are not as durable than hand-built wheels.

Here are some thoughts. . . .

1. Get Zinn's book (road or MTB) on bicycle maintenance (about $20), if you don't have one already. Read the chapter on wheel building, even if you don't plan to build a wheel. It will help you understand basic elements of tension, lateral true, radial true and dishing.

2. Get a dishing tool. A true wheel still needs to be dished.

3. With your truing stand and new dishing tool build a wheel. You will learn a great deal, and be more self-sufficient than ever.

Good Luck!!

Very encouraging. Thanks. I have Zinn on road bikes and use it all the time. I always dish the wheel when I true it. Right now, although my wheel is in good shape, I think I really need a professional look at it and have it properly tensioned.

Rich

Well, I have had wheel problems myself.

Seems to me that trueing every 300 miles is excessive.

I used to get about 10,000 miles on MA40 wheels with 36 spokes. They would stay pretrue until they started to come apart. The spokes would start breaking and after a couple of thousand miles of that, the rims would start cracking at the spoke holes.

I now ride Mavic T519 and have 30,000 miles on a wheel - I think I had it trued once on general principles during a service trip. I can field true a wheel fine and replace spokes.

It seems to me that you could well a damaged rim with it going out of true so often. But if that were the case, I would think you would be breaking spokes. If this does not really bug you, you could keep riding them just to see what happens.

Maybe your spokes aren't taut enough or the nipples were dry when assembled. The spokes need some kind of "prep" - linseed oil, spoke prep by wheelsmith or DT or an adjustable variety of lock-tite. The stuff acts as a lubricant when building the wheel to make it easier and then "sets" making it harder for the spokes to "work" loose.

Ride True
Pat

I bought my Open Pros in January and I am taking the rear wheel back to my LBS for the first time. I noticed a wobble or two in it last night which caused it to scrape slightly across the brake block. When I bought them, my LBS told me to bring them back after 50-100kms just to recheck the tensions, so I suppose they are a little overdue. Excellent wheels though. :)

IMHO it is not how good your bike is (though it may look nice), it is how fit and strong the rider is that counts. So sod 'em. :D

After all the good advice I got here, I decided to examine the wheel carefully. I detensioned the wheel and found that there was a permanent high spot on the rim. I guess it was caused by a pothole or a particularly nasty RR crossing. When I retensioned the wheel, I got greater consistency of tension than I had before even though the high spot remained. I guess that spot will continue to be the source of broken spokes until I get a new rim.

Now, because of this problem I have gotten some skill at tensioning and truing a wheel. So now I am considering getting a replacement rim and building the wheel myself. How difficult is the lacing of the spokes?

Rich

The quality of your wheels sounds fine, and at your weight with these wheels you shouldn't be having any problems. I have had the same wheels on my road bike now for 7 years from memory and only trued them 2 or 3 times. Admittly I am quite light (145 lbs) but these wheels have travelled at least 50 000 km's with no problems. They where hand built by a good mechanic. I know build my own wheels and have never had any problems (for my MTB that is). I would suggest taking your wheel in and getting it rebuilt by a good mechanic, you should be able to use the same hubs and rim (assuming it hasn't sustained any major damage). Il'd suggest DT comp. spokes and alloy nipples, I have had great reliability from these in the past.
Another cause of you problem may be that the spokes are loosening as you ride, I have had this happen on some pre (factory) built wheels that came on one of my bikes. I fixed this by tightening all of the nipples by half a turn. (You can add or subtract tension from the spokes if they do not already have the correct tension).

Wheel building really isn't that difficult. I say that after spending 2.5 hours in the shop at the local co-op LBS trying to dish my new Surley fixed gear and MA3 rim. I have built two other wheels previous and had no problems, but this beast is giving me fits. I finally had to step back and regroup meaning I tore it apart and rebuilt, after reading "The Art of Wheelbuilding." Nice book. If you are going to attempt the rebuild you might try the drive side of the rear with 4x spokes and the windless side 3x. It is what was suggested to me as I am a Clidesdale and tend to hammer.