I've recently begun a new route (office relocation), and I have an intersection which I'm not quite sure how to manage. Actually, I think I know, but I'd like to get your opinion as well.
A picture of the intersection is below. I'm turning left from the left-turn lane in the bottom of the picture, following the dotted line. There is a left-turn only green light on which I am usually moving, at the beginning of the green cycle, so during this time the only traffic in the intersection should be my lane turning left, and the opposite lane also turning to their left, which should not be in my way. I suppose there is also the possibility of opposing cars taking a right on red, although I haven't had it happen it yet. I don't remember if that lane is a right-turn only or a right turn or straight lane, but I'm thinking the latter.
My question is, which lane on the two-lane that I'm turning into should I aim for? Driving a car, I am supposed to turn into the nearest lane (although many people ignore this rule), but that seems to conflicts with the bike guideline of keeping as far to the right as practicable. Turning to the nearest (left) lane would have me end up in the middle of road as a whole, looking to move to the right as soon as I can, possibily conflicting with any cars that have taken the right lane already. On the other hand, if I aimed for the right-hand lane, there is a chance of a collision with a car taking a right-on-red into it.
My conclusion at this point is to aim for the middle of the right-hand lane, then move closer to the side of it after I'm through the intersection. This will keep cars behind me from passing me on the right into it, and also make me the most visible to any opposing cars tempted to turn right on red, while also avoiding getting caught in the middle of the road. Of course I'll need to be very vigilant about watching for any right-on-red cars, but this course of action seems to minimize the other risks.
What do you think?
Ubie
02-11-05, 12:12 PM
At least in New York (outside of NYC) you should go into the left hand lane of the street you are turning onto, this goes for autos and bicycles. This way someone making a right on red had a clear lane to turn onto. Might also keep you from getting bashed by the right-on-red car that's looking for cars in that lane and completely fails to notice a bicycle. This doesn't apply to NYC because there is no right-on-red here, but you should still probably go into the left lane to keep it nice and legal.
ArtM
02-11-05, 12:29 PM
Driving a car, I am supposed to turn into the nearest lane (although many people ignore this rule),
I've never heard of this rule (maybe that is why I ignore it). Can you please site the applicable regulation?
And, I agree you should move into the middle or right side of the right lane.
JohnBrooking
02-11-05, 12:55 PM
I've never heard of this rule (maybe that is why I ignore it). Can you please site the applicable regulation?
Not without some research, which I don't feel like doing right now. But I remember learning it in driver's ed. in NY state. I think certainly for cars, it makes sense for the reason Ubie noted.
Daily Commute
02-11-05, 01:02 PM
I'd aim for the right lane, as you said, unless a car is turning right into it.
If there's a car moving into the right lane, I'd turn into the right side of the left lane, hang back, signal, and pull in behind the right turning car. Of course, you have to be ready to swerve out of the way in case the right-turning car decides to pull into the left lane.
Da Tinker
02-11-05, 01:12 PM
John, I think you called it right. Sometimes, safe & legal do not always match. Ride large, so a cager behind you is not tempted to pass you on the right through the intersection, and so that right-on-red drivers will see you.
eubi
02-11-05, 01:22 PM
I think you are right on the money, John. I'd do the same thing. Moving into the far lane when you have a choice of two during a left hand turn is legal here in CA, unless you are driving a commerical vehicle.
Right turn on red is typically allowed here in CA, unless specifically prohibited. I wouldn't count on it. I'd be making eye contact with any potential RH turn drivers...or bicycle riders..or jaywalkers!!
John E
02-11-05, 01:46 PM
About the time I got my driver's license (1966), California eased the requirements that left turns be made into the leftmost available lane, but kept the requirement that right turns be made into the rightmost available lane. Irrespective of the letter of the law, the correct move for a bicyclist is to aim for the right lane, while watching for right-on-red turners and other potential conflicts. Why strand yourself in the left lane and then have to make additional maneuvers across traffic to end up where you want to be?
PaperBoy
02-11-05, 01:54 PM
I am almost positive that here in Missouri you have to left-turn into the closest lane (billh or chicharon--do you guys know?) although most people happily ignore that rule. We also allow right turns on red--again, into the closest lane. With both of these circumstances in mind, I'd have to argue for the left lane at least through the turn. It seems like it would be least occupied.
JohnBrooking
02-11-05, 02:09 PM
For the record, I actually have no idea what the law on this is here in Maine. Driving, I usually try to turn into the nearest lane, but I'm basing this on what I was taught in New York state 20 years ago. However, I think I'd come to the same conclusion either way.
eubi
02-11-05, 03:54 PM
Here ya go...From Maine Motor Vehicle Code:
2. Left turns on 2-way roadways. At an intersection where traffic is permitted to move in both directions on each way entering the intersection, an approach for a left turn must be made in that portion of the right half of the way nearest the center line and by passing to the right of the center line where it enters the intersection. After entering the intersection, an operator must make the left turn so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered.
When practicable, the left turn must be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.
An operator intending to turn to the left must yield the right-of-way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard.
[1993, c. 683, Pt. A, §2 (new); Pt. B, §5 (aff).]
Hmmm. There's that "When practicable" again. For bikes, I still say you are right.
Does your state DMV have a cycling safety booklet? That might explain the turn situation better. We have them here in CA, but it's usually difficult to find one in English.
my58vw
02-11-05, 04:26 PM
Approaching an intersection like such I actually will ride to the middle of the two lanes then move to the right. That gives anyone not watching making a right turn a chance to go around. I go through these intersections all the time...
LittleBigMan
02-11-05, 05:47 PM
Here ya go...From Maine Motor Vehicle Code:
2. Left turns on 2-way roadways. At an intersection where traffic is permitted to move in both directions on each way entering the intersection, an approach for a left turn must be made in that portion of the right half of the way nearest the center line and by passing to the right of the center line where it enters the intersection. After entering the intersection, an operator must make the left turn so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered.
When practicable, the left turn must be made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of the intersection.
An operator intending to turn to the left must yield the right-of-way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard.
[1993, c. 683, Pt. A, §2 (new); Pt. B, §5 (aff).]
Ok, this is what I get:
"Take the right lane, unless you have to take the left lane. But if it's more practical, take the left lane instead of the right lane."
:D
operator
02-11-05, 06:19 PM
Without even quoting laws, just imagine what would happen if you had two lanes that turned left onto another 2 lane road and you quickly realize why.
I'd turn into the nearest lane then double check that it's okay to move over to where your supposed to be in normal traffic, then do it.
sbhikes
02-11-05, 07:34 PM
I head for the right-most lane and give evil glares to anybody who might want to make a right turn into the lane I'm aiming for. Sometimes they go anyway, but they do that when you are driving a car, too.
JohnBrooking
02-11-05, 11:25 PM
Maybe the question could be boiled down to what's the bigger danger:
People behind you trying to pass you on the right if you don't take the right lane first, or
People turning right-on-red into it if you do try to?
So far, I don't see a clear consensus.
It's been said on these boards that the two biggest goals of safety in traffic are visibility and predictability. I think you are going to visible anywhere towards the middle, no matter which lane you are aiming for. As for predictable, given that even many motorists don't necessarily aim for the nearest lane, law or no, I'm concerned that if I did, it might be more confusing to them. They probably have a greater expectation that I will stick to the right (even if not correct for that situation; what do they know?) than that I will turn into the near lane. I think this might have a bearing on the question.
Bekologist
02-12-05, 12:44 AM
The best line will be the one chosen each time you make that intersection: Sometimes, traffic in the opposite lane actually or potentially turning right will keep you turning into the left lane, and sometimes a clear turn into the far lane will be appropriate. Most cars will try to pass to the left in an intersection, I think. Additionally, in my experience, unless this is very broad intersection, a bicyclist turning will be able to match or exceed the speeds of turning cars, especially when the turn lane has been holding at red, leaving the cyclist 'pacing' in traffic through the turn and not likely to be passed until they have made a lane choice. Each time through, a new choice.
chicharron
02-16-05, 05:18 PM
I've recently begun a new route (office relocation), and I have an intersection which I'm not quite sure how to manage. Actually, I think I know, but I'd like to get your opinion as well.
A picture of the intersection is below. I'm turning left from the left-turn lane in the bottom of the picture, following the dotted line. There is a left-turn only green light on which I am usually moving, at the beginning of the green cycle, so during this time the only traffic in the intersection should be my lane turning left, and the opposite lane also turning to their left, which should not be in my way. I suppose there is also the possibility of opposing cars taking a right on red, although I haven't had it happen it yet. I don't remember if that lane is a right-turn only or a right turn or straight lane, but I'm thinking the latter.
My question is, which lane on the two-lane that I'm turning into should I aim for? Driving a car, I am supposed to turn into the nearest lane (although many people ignore this rule), but that seems to conflicts with the bike guideline of keeping as far to the right as practicable. Turning to the nearest (left) lane would have me end up in the middle of road as a whole, looking to move to the right as soon as I can, possibily conflicting with any cars that have taken the right lane already. On the other hand, if I aimed for the right-hand lane, there is a chance of a collision with a car taking a right-on-red into it.
My conclusion at this point is to aim for the middle of the right-hand lane, then move closer to the side of it after I'm through the intersection. This will keep cars behind me from passing me on the right into it, and also make me the most visible to any opposing cars tempted to turn right on red, while also avoiding getting caught in the middle of the road. Of course I'll need to be very vigilant about watching for any right-on-red cars, but this course of action seems to minimize the other risks.
What do you think?
I prefer the missionary postion, however I am a little bit conservative.
Litespeed
02-16-05, 05:58 PM
Serge - where are you? This is right up your alley.
LittleBigMan
02-18-05, 05:43 PM
I'd turn into the right lane.
Smaug
02-18-05, 06:58 PM
I asked a similar version of this questiom last summer.... here's the thread...
How Do I Turn Left? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=59019)
CPcyclist
02-18-05, 08:20 PM
IMO (my understanding of the rules) you should turn in to the closer of the two lanes then work in to the right lane as soon as practical (not posible what the car behind you are going to think). If you make another left so after this I would consider staying in the lane until that turn.
LittleBigMan
02-19-05, 07:52 PM
IMO (my understanding of the rules) you should turn in to the closer of the two lanes then work in to the right lane as soon as practical (not posible what the car behind you are going to think). If you make another left so after this I would consider staying in the lane until that turn.
Yes, if there are two left-turn lanes. But if there is only one left-turn lane and two receiving lanes, go to the rightmost lane through-lane (unless hazards prevent you.)
Alphie
02-19-05, 09:17 PM
Somewhat unrelated (I agree with the way John is turning to wind up initially in the middle of the right lane, because that is the way I do it ;) ) but there is a scary intersection near my place that has 5 lanes each way, total. 2 lanes turning left, 2 lanes going straight, and one lane turning right. The vehicles in the 2 left turning lanes appear to be about to collide head-on (or at least right front corner to right front corner) with the cars coming from the opposite direction, turning left at the same time. They do have dashed lines to indicate the correct line in the turn, but the intersection still freaks me out. Lucky for me, there is a "shortcut" connecting road I can take on my bike to avoid this mess.
JohnBrooking
02-19-05, 09:35 PM
Serge - where are you? This is right up your alley.
Pun intended? :lol:
JohnBrooking
02-19-05, 09:39 PM
I asked a similar version of this questiom last summer.... here's the thread...
How Do I Turn Left? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=59019)
Thanks for pointing that out; it was before my time here. I didn't bother reading all the replies, but what I would do in that situation is take the lane in the right-hand turn lane (between your positions 3 & 4), and stay in the middle of that lane until you were through the intersection. FWIW.
Metro
02-22-05, 01:49 PM
Yea, but a dashed line is only a suggestion. :)
Seriously I would go for the middle of the right lane. I would be very conspicuous (bright colors, maybe reflective vest). Approach with caution (allowing me to maintain contol with one hand and signal/point with the other.
My favorite signal routine is to use a conventional signal to begin with, then as I am in motion I look/point at motorists then where I want to go. For example I have signaled a left turn, watied for the right of way, Started out. Given the driver on my left hip a slow down signal (left hand down). Pointed at the middle of the right lane, looked at the motorist ("I'm going THERE") and moved with confidence into my lane keeping the motories in my peripheral vision. Once established, wave him through and say/signal thank you. Smile.
It sounds like a lot of signaling, but it actually comes naturally. Left turn signal while waitin. After a while left hand down (slowing signal), then forward pointing at object lane. Look over shoulder at motorist smile, look for acknowledgement. Look where you are going (keep peripheral vision active). Move to rigt side of lane, wave, smile (Thanks!, have a great day).
Helmet-Head
02-22-05, 04:55 PM
Like most have suggested, I too would start in the right tire track of the left turn lane and go straight into the middle of the right lane. Your best defense against an oncoming right-turner turning in front of you is being visible - ride where the right-turner would be looking for left-turning vehicles, but be prepared to make an emergency maneuver in case he still doesn't see you.
Treespeed
02-22-05, 06:36 PM
I'm going to risk all of your wrath now and suggest the way that I deal with left turn lanes in high-traffic situations. I'm sure that many of you will tell me how I'm courting death and the breakdown of civilization as we know it, but in over a decade of using this method I've never encountered a problem.
If the light heading straight is green I proceed through the light and then aim for the as Serge puts it "destinational position" that would have me heading towards the far right lane where I would have ended up if I went through the left-hand turn lane. If it looks like I won't make the green, I roll into the crosswalk to the left of any right turning traffic, obviously making sure that any straight heading traffic has come to a complete stop before I enter the crosswalk. It's usually not a problem to politely mix-in with the ped traffic and head to the near left crossing, then cross the street again and proceed in your intended direction. This way has the added benefit that you have another light cycle to establish your lane position and overtaking motorists a bit of time to see you. Instead of wondering, is he going to take the near or far lane and risk having them pass you on your right.
This works best for me when overtaking traffic is going along at 45-55mph and getting into the left-hand turn lane is very risky and annoying to drivers. Again, I'm not trying to argue with any of the other suggestions, just what works for me.
Helmet-Head
02-22-05, 06:51 PM
Treespeed, I've reread your post 3-4 times and I don't get what you're doing. The opening post was based on the premise that you're starting out in the left turn lane. You don't seem to be incorporating that premise because of statements like "where I would have ended up if I went through the left-hand turn lane" (implying you didn't go through the left-hand turn lane). So you seem to be describing how you take the turn starting further back, while you're still traveling north (assuming up is north on the original diagram) on the first street. You don't say it, but I presume you are traveling along the right edge of the roadway at this point (north) as you approach the intersection. It is from this situation that I try to interpret, 'If the light heading straight is green I proceed through the light and then aim for the as Serge puts it 'destinational position' that would have me heading towards the far right lane where I would have ended up if I went through the left-hand turn lane".
So, you proceed (north) through the light, still along the right side of the traffic? At what point do you begin to "aim for the as Serge puts it 'destinational position' that would have me heading towards the far right lane"? The "destinational position", as I put it, would be in the left turn lane -- since your destination is to the left, but that's not what you're talking about. Do you cut across the northbound traffic when there is a gap?
For clarity, perhaps you could describe your path with respect to the original diagram, which I am reposting.
Treespeed
02-22-05, 08:35 PM
Okay, so I didn't do a good job explaining my method. You are correct that it would help if I used some North/South coordinates in my explanation. Though I don't see the problem with proposing another solution to the posed question. Serge you don't seem to have a problem with throwing in VC advice with only the most tenuous of connections. I am just suggesting one way of dealing with a multi-lane left-hand turn.
So I'm heading North in the middle lane, if the light is green I proceed through the light then aim for the NW right lane, right wheel rut, heading East. This is assuming there is no right hand turn lane, which doesn't seem to be the case in this diagram. When the Eastbound signal goes green you proceed East in the right-hand lane, right wheel rut.
If when approaching the intersection the light is red or heading that way I continue North to the front of stopped traffic and then head East on the South crosswalk to the SE corner of the intersection. Then when the crosswalk signals walk you proceed North on the East Crosswalk until reaching the Eastbound right-hand lane, right-wheel rut on then proceed East. Watching of course for Southbound traffic turning East across your path. Though since you are in a crosswalk most drivers are not surprised to see you anymore than they are surprised to see peds. And since I travel at similar speeds to peds with increased awareness for motorists making free-right turns I am able to stop quickly and have never had a problem excecuting this manuever.
The reason for using this method is that many(read almost all)intersections in LA have no left-turn signals, so at rush hour it is terrbly risky to try and force yourself into the train of one or two cars who are able to make the left as the light turns yellow.
I hope this is clearer.
Helmet-Head
02-24-05, 11:20 AM
So I'm heading North in the middle lane, ...
I'm with you this far, but that's it.
...if the light is green I proceed through the light [by "through the light" do you mean "through the intersection", or "into the intersection"?] then aim for the NW right lane, [by the NW right lane] do you mean the rightmost westbound lane?] right wheel rut, heading East
Head East?The whole point was turn left, west, and the question was which westbound lane (left or right) should be used.
If I assume you got your east/west confuse and try to reinterpret accordingly, I get:
So I'm heading North in the middle lane, if the light is green I proceed through the light then aim for the right westbound lane, right wheel rut, heading west. This is assuming there is no right hand turn lane, which doesn't seem to be the case in this diagram. . When the [i]westbound signal goes green you proceed west in the right-hand lane, right wheel rut.
I'm also unclear as to where you are stopped waiting for the signal to go green.
galen_52657
02-24-05, 11:29 AM
At least in New York (outside of NYC) you should go into the left hand lane of the street you are turning onto, this goes for autos and bicycles. This way someone making a right on red had a clear lane to turn onto. Might also keep you from getting bashed by the right-on-red car that's looking for cars in that lane and completely fails to notice a bicycle. This doesn't apply to NYC because there is no right-on-red here, but you should still probably go into the left lane to keep it nice and legal.
Wrong!
Anybody turning right on red has to yield to you as you have a green light. Does not mean they will yield, but by law they have to.
Instead of making a wide arc, I would turn 45 degrees or so, then ride strait-ish to the righthand lane (to stay out of the way of wide-turning vehicles comming the other way), then turn 45 degrees again and ride down the right side of the right lane. That gives cars behind you an easy pass, which they will appreciate.
Treespeed
02-24-05, 12:32 PM
I'm with you this far, but that's it.
Head East?The whole point was turn left, west, and the question was which westbound lane (left or right) should be used.
So yes, I got my East/West confused, it had been a long day. I would argue the right westbound lane.
I'm also unclear as to where you are stopped waiting for the signal to go green.
Maybe you'll have to show me where you folks get those funky diagrams so I could put some X's for my positioning. Again, for heading west if the northbound light is green I go partially through the intersection, then position myself in the right hand westbound lane out of the way of any right turners. This would be the NE corner of the diagram.
If the light is red, or even close to turning I proceed West on the South crosswalk and wait at the SE corner on the curb for the North heading East crosswalk to go to Walk. Then I proceed North on the East crosswalk until I encounter the Westbound right-hand lane, right-wheel rut and then proceed West.
Yes, this is a sidetrack from the original premise, but are you accusing me of a thread-jack Serge? I just wanted to show that for some nasty intersections it is completely possible to bypass the left-hand turn lane safely.
Ubie
02-24-05, 12:49 PM
Wrong!
Anybody turning right on red has to yield to you as you have a green light. Does not mean they will yield, but by law they have to.
Actually not wrong from a legal standpoint, at least in New York. Since it is a two lane road, the theory is that both people can make their turns safely, the left hand turn going into the left late, the right-on-red going into the right lane. That is why the law says you are *required* to make your left turn into the left lane. If this were a one lane road that someone was making a left on to you would be correct.
Helmet-Head
02-24-05, 02:41 PM
Yes, this is a sidetrack from the original premise, but are you accusing me of a thread-jack Serge? I just wanted to show that for some nasty intersections it is completely possible to bypass the left-hand turn lane safely.
I'm not accusing you of anything, Treespeed, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.
So if the light is green, you're just saying you do the classic two-step left turn: cross the intersection and wait at the NE corner for a green westbound light, and then proceed westbound. Even John Forester writes about this on p. 321 of Effective Cycling: "If these tactics don't work, then switch to pedestrian rules by riding to the far right corner [NE in our diagram] near the sidewalk, stopping, getting turned around, and waiting like a pedestrian until traffic clears".
But you can do that even when the light is red (by waiting until it turns green).
I can understand the temptation to sneak through on the crosswalk when the light is red, and I guess that can be safe as long as you're not relying on anyone to see you there, especially when you turn into the crosswalk in the middle of it. The second crossing by pedestrian rules is just as safe as a pedestrian crossing at that point, as long as you do it at pedestrian speeds.
recursive
02-24-05, 03:46 PM
Treespeed, I'm trying to understand to understand you too, but I keep running across statements like this: I proceed West on the South crosswalk and wait at the SE corner
If you are going west, how can you get to the SE corner? It seems like you're mixing up all the directions. For example: as far as I could tell, your first method was a method of turning right, whereas the original question was asking about turning left. This is not a personal attack. I am actually just curious, and trying to find out what method you are using. As for the diagrams, you can make those with Microsoft Paint which comes with Windows.
Treespeed
02-24-05, 05:30 PM
Okay, again I got my directions mixed up. And apparently I'm not very good at paint either.
Let me know if this clears it up for anyone. Again, I realize that this is a different tack on the original
question. It's just a technique that I find useful on some of the high speed/traffic intersections here in Los Angeles where there are a lot of left-turn lanes, but very few left-turn signals.
Helmet-Head
02-24-05, 06:32 PM
Tree,
Back in post #31, you said "So I'm heading North in the middle lane, ..." The middle lane reference threw me off. Why would you be in the middle lane if you're going straight across to the corner? Indeed, in your diagram you indicate you're traveling north in the rightmost lane. Anyway, your tiny diagrams are clearly worth a thousand words.
Both methods are probably just as safe as crossing this intersection as a pedestrian, as long as you travel at pedestrian speeds in the crosswalks.
Personally, I don't like Method 1 because it often requires riding against traffic, at least a few feet (to get to the spot where you turn around in the NE corner). Also, I like to avoid taking steps on pavement in my cleated shoes, which is required to turn the bike around.
As for Method 2, I feel awkward riding a bike in a crosswalk, but that's a personal problem, I guess.
Most importantly, I never have a problem getting into a left turn lane. If there are no gaps, I create them by negotiating for the right-of-way (one lane at a time, look back over your left shoulder, stick out your left arm if necessary, wait for a car to slow down and let you in - usually the 2nd car does if not the first, move into that lane, repeat, until you're in the left turn lane).
Serge
recursive
02-24-05, 07:12 PM
Treespeed, ok, that is much better. I can now understand what you are talking about. I occasionally use these techniques like these if traffic is too heavy to get to the left turn lane, which is infrequent, but it is certainly useful to me in those cases.
John E
02-24-05, 07:47 PM
I use Treespeed's technique regularly on prme arterial highways, particularly the 6-laners, with fast, heavy traffic. It sure beats trying to negotiate a series of merges across 50+mph / 80+kph motor traffic.
The key is to avoid conflicts with right-turning motorists at the apex (NE corner in this example) of your two-part turn. I have never had a conflict with pedestrians, because I am slowing to a stop and because they are pretty sparse on roads of this type.
galen_52657
02-24-05, 08:31 PM
Actually not wrong from a legal standpoint, at least in New York. Since it is a two lane road, the theory is that both people can make their turns safely, the left hand turn going into the left late, the right-on-red going into the right lane. That is why the law says you are *required* to make your left turn into the left lane. If this were a one lane road that someone was making a left on to you would be correct.
That's crazy!
In Maryland, right turns are permited on red after stopping. If you are stopped at an intersection with a traffic light, you may turn right on red but MUST yeild to all other traffic untill your light turns green. To have it any other way is dumb. Traffic with a green light should always have right-of-way over traffic with a red light, regardless of how many lanes there are. What if the left turner wants to use a driveway on the right side that is just past the intersection?
The way you state it, left turn drivers proceeding on a green left turn arrow would have to yield to drivers with a red lamp who are making a right turn. Kind of makes a green light useless.....
Ubie
02-24-05, 10:22 PM
Galen are you missing the part about two lanes, or being intentionally obtuse? By turning leff into the left lane and right into the right lane both vehicles may safely make their turns at the same time. That's the point, and it helps all traffic move more smoothly, at least in theory.
galen_52657
02-25-05, 06:57 AM
Galen are you missing the part about two lanes, or being intentionally obtuse? By turning leff into the left lane and right into the right lane both vehicles may safely make their turns at the same time. That's the point, and it helps all traffic move more smoothly, at least in theory.
I got your point and I am obtuse. The right turning vehicle that has stopped for a red light has to yield to the left turning vehicle that has a green turn arrow. If everybody knows the rules, traffic moves more smoothly and you have less accidents.
If I was at the red light wanting to turn right on red, I would wait untill everyone who was making a left on the green arrow had come through the intersection. I would not try to force my way in front of a left turning car (or bike) just because there are two lanes for them to choose from. It is THEIR choice! THEY have the right-of-way. I have a red light. That's the law in MD and it makes sense.
Metro
02-25-05, 09:35 AM
Maybe I made a bunch of assumptions here, but I assume the turn is being made from the right side of the turning lane. Some would assume the right most posiiton in that lane (the left lane). and proceed to turn into the left most lane of the perpendicular street (the street you are turning onto). Others would go for the right lane on that street (you are turning onto).
I think that is the question. From the turning lane, which lane do I target going onto the next street left or right lane?. I would target the right lane, as I am starting out on the right side of the turning lane. I would keep an eye out for turning traffic, give them the eyeball and point where I am going. Move caustiously, but confidently.
galen_52657
02-25-05, 10:00 AM
Maybe I made a bunch of assumptions here, but I assume the turn is being made from the right side of the turning lane. Some would assume the right most posiiton in that lane (the left lane). and proceed to turn into the left most lane of the perpendicular street (the street you are turning onto). Others would go for the right lane on that street (you are turning onto).
I think that is the question. From the turning lane, which lane do I target going onto the next street left or right lane?. I would target the right lane, as I am starting out on the right side of the turning lane. I would keep an eye out for turning traffic, give them the eyeball and point where I am going. Move caustiously, but confidently.
Exactly
Ebbtide
02-25-05, 10:01 AM
If I was at the red light wanting to turn right on red, I would wait untill everyone who was making a left on the green arrow had come through the intersection. I would not try to force my way in front of a left turning car (or bike) just because there are two lanes for them to choose from. It is THEIR choice! THEY have the right-of-way. I have a red light.
When turing you stay in the lane your in or turn into the lane that is closest. We keep it simple in Ohio.
I regularly turn right on red when others are turning left (again, in Ohio). There are also plenty of intersections (T's) that have a constant green forward arrow on the right lane as others turning from the left into the left lane. I guess it comes down to where you live.