Mountain Biking - Dirt Jumping/Urban Riding...Mountain Biking or Not?

I know I may get blasted for asking this question/stating my opinion on this, however I am curious what others think about this.

Basically, I believe that the only reason that dirt jumping still enters into the conversation of mountain biking is because of two reasons:

1. The bikes have front suspension forks and therefore approximate mountain bikes more than any other type of bike.

2. The dirt jumping niche hasn't quite grown large enough to justify its own media (magazines, etc) coverage yet so it continues to get lumped in with mountain biking since it really has nowhere else to go.

I know there are people who are really passionate about dirt jumping and, in no way am I belittling this particular cycling niche I'm just saying that it's not mountain biking and, in fact, is MUCH closer to being BMX than what most (I'm guessing) consider mountain biking.

Thoughts...

I guess if you want to get technical, you can say mountain biking is any riding that's not on a road and is going up or down a mountain, but what difference does it make? I mean, there are singletrack trails with dirt jumps on them, what does that count as? DOes it make a difference what classification it fits into?

:D Dang straight it is.You'll get all kind of responses out of this one.This past week I have been trail riding on my full squish, a gravel road ride on my steel HT, and gone urban/dirt jumping on my SS.I think if your on a 24 or 26in off road bike then your doing the MTB thing fer sure.Feltup will give you a different view but that's what makes this forum fun. :)

2. The dirt jumping niche hasn't quite grown large enough to justify its own media (magazines, etc) coverage yet so it continues to get lumped in with mountain biking since it really has nowhere else to go.


what are you talking about... it has its own media, flow, and decline are all about the scene, and what about drop in tv, and movies

Does this look like a BMX bike to you?

DJ'ing is missing one thing, the Mountain....

Actually, to me MtnBiking consists of several different types of riding styles....

Dirt Jumping
DownHill Racing
Dirt/Fire Road riding
FreeRide
Trials
Giant Slolam
CrossCountry

I suppose any kind of bike with a tire wider than your Pinky is considered "MtnBiking" in this lifetime anyway....

i djed @ silver mt.

i disagree with your logic. first, most urban riding very closely replicates the skills used on a mountain bike on a trail, like creating your own line, negating obstacles, etc. bmx dirt jumpers and park riders require very highly prepared surfaces, because their bikes are so specialized to prepared terrain, they dont have the ablility to ride jumps without transitions, drops, etc. they are also dismal bikes to ride on a trail, or commute on. urban mtb's can ride much more varied and rough terrain, creating jumps out of random junk hanging around, making their own lines in a city that often dont include any transitions, using stairs, ledges, etc. i can and have ride a trail with an urban bike, as well as commute to class on it.

I think it's still a type of mountain biking. 'True' BMX riding is racing on a dirt track, right? But BMX has come to mean street tricks, so it seems.

Mountian riding, going simply by the name, implies it would be any riding done in a mountainous setting, in difficult terrain.

If BMX can evolve from a dirt track to trickery on man-made objects, why can't mountain biking extend from natural objects to objects found in an urban setting?

If you define mountain biking as being only over naturally formed terrain, off-road, uphill or down, doesn't that exclude North Shore-type riding, or really any type of riding done on objects constructed, even if they are constructed in the mountains?

Sure, dirt jumping and urban riding is best suited to bikes outfitted with different parts than most mountain bikes are equipped with. One brake is generally enough, since there aren't any cliffs you'll go off (if some idiot didnt put the jump that close to a cliff).


Didn't the transition to 'street' BMX go through the same stage as mountain biking is now, splitting into a different 'type' of riding, having people who regret it and people who love it?

Look up hell track which consists of MotoCross Doubles or watch NWDIIIYou got some slopeage there. Also the street scene was originated in the north east US and Canada, where there was not a whole lot of trails to be had and most of the ski resorts up here won't allow bikes up the mountain, so they caused an evolution in the mtbing scene by getting slick tires and started to stunt ride.

Not gonna argue but yes it is. If you NEED a mountain to mountain bike then I guess everyone in the midwest/florida or other flat lands is road cycling.

Not gonna argue but yes it is. If you NEED a mountain to mountain bike then I guess everyone in the midwest/florida or other flat lands is road cycling.
:roflmao: Too much

Im an average rider that has been riding for 4 years now. I do it for the passion of exploring new boundaries and pushing my skills further. With my hartail, that i have used for everything possible, I explore my city and always look for new lines. Its simply the discovery brag and happiness that you rode it that makes you ride a little further or higher. I agree with "handlebars", what he is sayng is that street riding is using what you have to give you happiness. We all are trapped in this concrete jungle that is filled with obstacles both physically and metaphorically so it is human nature to adapt and try find a "new way." For those that are living in the country or out of cities, you still push your limits in this new age of urban, jumping, freeriding, balancing, hucking and enjoying what two wheels can do for you.
Keep Riding for the reason to enjoy it rather than for the type of riding you do>>>

Im an average rider that has been riding for 4 years now. I do it for the passion of exploring new boundaries and pushing my skills further. With my hartail, that i have used for everything possible, I explore my city and always look for new lines. Its simply the discovery brag and happiness that you rode it that makes you ride a little further or higher. I agree with "handlebars", what he is sayng is that street riding is using what you have to give you happiness. We all are trapped in this concrete jungle that is filled with obstacles both physically and metaphorically so it is human nature to adapt and try find a "new way." For those that are living in the country or out of cities, you still push your limits in this new age of urban, jumping, freeriding, balancing, hucking and enjoying what two wheels can do for you.
Keep Riding for the reason to enjoy it rather than for the type of riding you do>>>

Great post.

Ok I had a Giant XTC SE2 that I had slicks on and commuted to work on plus some ride for exercise. Just because I used a bike classified as a MTB doesn't mean I was mountain biking. I traded it and got a roadie.

Mountain biking is off road and in the sticks, on a mountain is prefferable. No people in FL aren't mountain biking. Urban riding and dirt jumping is NOT mountain biking. Nothing wrong with this kind of cycling just not really mountain biking.



Does this look like a BMX bike to you?

YES

Who cares! we all ride bikes why does every one have to lable everything? what's a cyclo-cross bike.
Get over it.

Ok I had a Giant XTC SE2 that I had slicks on and commuted to work on plus some ride for exercise. Just because I used a bike classified as a MTB doesn't mean I was mountain biking. I traded it and got a roadie.

Mountain biking is off road and in the sticks, on a mountain is prefferable. No people in FL aren't mountain biking. Urban riding and dirt jumping is NOT mountain biking. Nothing wrong with this kind of cycling just not really mountain biking.




YES

And you probably will never see any sticks or mountains you used it to commute I use my bike to ride trails dirt jump and ride urban with, so who are you to determine what mountain biking is. "I had a mountain bike but only used it to commute to work" is not a valid reason to say what is and what isn't. Yes people in florida can mountain bike, it was called mountain biking because it was originated in the mountains of California, remember that no terrain is equal anywhere, mountain biking in Florida is a whole diferent matter than mountain biking in New Hampshire which is completely different than riding in Utah. The sport evolves to fit with the terrain, so to claim that people in Florida can't mountainbike is crock full of BS.

you need to get back into touch with reality, grasschopper. look where the INDUSTRY LEADERS put the dirt jumping bikes


www.trekbikes.com www.specialized.com

Looks like I set off a bit of a firestorm here so I'll respond to a couple of posts (I actually tried responding last night but accidentally erased my post...that sucked) all at once and then I'll hit a couple of specific posters.

Basically I still don't see how riding a bike in an area that's surrounded by nothing but suburbs, buildings, quick-e-marts, etc and riding obstacles that are entirely man-made with no hint of a trail anywhere or wilderness anywhere is classified as "mountain biking." The guy who said that mountain biking was founded by guys riding in the mountains of CA is right; that's where it started and, therefore, that's how it was and is defined. Riding sans any semblance of wilderness is something other than mountain biking…period.

I will continue to maintain that DJ much more closely approximates BMX style riding than it does mountain biking despite the skill-sets that were pointed out by handlebarsfsr. Yes, DJ/urban requires many of these skills but, truth be told, virtually every discipline of cycling requires the same base skill-set which is why you find so many former BMX and XC riders riding in the peleton come Tour time.

Essentially, the only reason that DJ is considered mountain biking is due to the fact that the bike resembles a mountain bike more closely than it does any other type of bike (and yes KonaRider, your bike does look like a BMX ride. With the lack of a seat-post and the compact frame geometry it looks as much like BMX bike as it does a MTB.) The same can be said of cyclocross bikes. They tend to be classified within the road category simply because of the fact that they have drop bars, skinny tires and rigid forks but if what they do isn’t XC racing then I really don’t know what is.

I’m not disparaging the DJ/urban discipline of cycling, all I’m saying is that it is in no way, shape or form mountain biking.

you need to get back into touch with reality, grasschopper. look where the INDUSTRY LEADERS put the dirt jumping bikes


www.trekbikes.com www.specialized.com

This only serves to further my point that DJ still doesn't have a full niche of its own. I guarantee that at some point within the next five years, DJ bikes will not be classified under the header of "mountain bikes." Soon they'll diversify enough that the facade will fall and they'll move under the sub-header of "specialty bikes" like cyclocross has on the Trek site.

Do I have to spell it out for you? I gave a frikken historical back ground on it earlier in this thread. Seems like you are not reading anything that hurts your cause, fact is it is in there because they may bee called dirt jump bikes when in reality they are freeride hardtails. Which can be used anywhere. Oh wait you're the type that thinks xc is the only form of mountain biking, and with the current state of xc all it is would relate to road biking on dirt. What was known as XC is now known as trail riding. But once a person has their mountain bikes touch pavement in attempt to try a new challenge as in riding off of obstacles it's not considered mountainbiking, get a life and go mtbr if you choose to take that attitude.

Do I have to spell it out for you? I gave a frikken historical back ground on it earlier in this thread. Seems like you are not reading anything that hurts your cause, fact is it is in there because they may bee called dirt jump bikes when in reality they are freeride hardtails. Which can be used anywhere. Oh wait you're the type that thinks xc is the only form of mountain biking, and with the current state of xc all it is would relate to road biking on dirt. What was known as XC is now known as trail riding. But once a person has their mountain bikes touch pavement in attempt to try a new challenge as in riding off of obstacles it's not considered mountainbiking, get a life and go mtbr if you choose to take that attitude.

People like you are hilarious. You take this kind of stuff very personally and it's people like you that screw politics, foreign relations, normal conversation up for the rest of us every day.

As a matter of fact, I would consider DH, free ride, XC, all mountain, etc mountain biking because they all have one thing in common: nature and wilderness; something that is conspicuously lacking from the DJ/urban side of things.

Sorry that you're so personally offended by my OPINION that DJ/urban is not mountain biking but them's the breaks chief.

People like you are hilarious. You take this kind of stuff very personally and it's people like you that screw politics, foreign relations, normal conversation up for the rest of us every day.

As a matter of fact, I would consider DH, free ride, XC, all mountain, etc mountain biking because they all have one thing in common: nature and wilderness; something that is conspicuously lacking from the DJ/urban side of things.

Sorry that you're so personally offended by my OPINION that DJ/urban is not mountain biking but them's the breaks chief.
Though it's your opinion and you're entitled to it, it seems like you impeding on others opinion's.

:roflmao: Too much

I will let Konarider dish it out. I am sick of having to define disciplines. djing and street are disciplines of mountain biking. Or if you really want to split the sport more they are disciplines of freeriding which is in and of itself a discipline of mountain biking. So...still...it is a form of mountain biking.

On the one hand you can see DJ/urban as an evolution of mountain biking and on the other hand you can see it as an application of MTB technology to BMX. DJ/Urban sounds like doing BMX style stuff on a MTB. Is it one or the other, or is it just a logical evolution of both? Either way it doesn't really matter since if you're on a bike and you're having fun then it's all good.

I've just got back into mountain biking after a 4 year hiatus and discovered that what I called mountain biking is called XC, DH is effectively going down ski slopes in summer on a bike (you're insane!) and I'm still not sure what the difference is between free ride and all mountain.

Paul
PS To me, that bike looks like a BMX with knobbly tyres and suspension fork but when I was looking through specialized's 2005 catalog for a new bike I noticed that that seems to be the current trend in the industry.

Again just because you choose to use a bicycle classified by a company as a MTB doesn't mean you are mountain biking.

I don't care what sort of riding anyone does, each to his or her own. By IMO you are jumping, urban riding, or mountain biking.

For Konarider24 - um yea I know where mountain biking came from. When I raced MTBs back in the day Ned Overend (god) and Johny Tomac were in their prime. I rode rigid bikes and remember when bar ends, index shifting, suspension forks hit the scene. Yes, more recently, I used a MTB for something other than mountain biking, that is what I was trying to say, I WASN'T mountain biking just because I was riding a MTB when I was doing my cycling.

Have fun doing the riding you do...that is what it is all about...NOT what you (or anyone else) call it.

Paul,

In reality freeride is more 'dh' than 'all mountain'. You go huge, ride steep terrain and generally do lots of tricks off jumps, drops and stunts (hmmmm stunts). All mountain is what I think xc would have been 10 or 15 years ago...

So all mountain is XC without the trails/singletrack/fireroads, etc?

I am new to the sport but I imagine old xc as being way more technical than todays. I watch todays wc races and wonder why they bother using mtbikes. All mountain encompasses everything 'mountain biking' should be. Long climbs, technical descents and still strong enough to take a beating.

Xc has gone the way of light instead of durable imo, which made it more racing instead of riding :)

I'm just defending that dirtjumping is a form of mountainbiking, not saying that anything else isn't anything.

Ah, I see. I think most of what I do would be classified as all-mountain then - my extended lunchtime ride is about 1100' of climbing up road and then fire-road and then descending down steep nasty rocky rutted single track (I could think of a few more adjectives but they wouldn't be polite) while hoping my alu ht frame and v-brakes can cope :D

Actually...dirtjumping is just that, dirtjumping. Its dirtjumping on a BMX bike, its dirtjumping on a MTB. People classify things by what they ride them on, not by what they actually are. The real question should be, would urban riding on a mountain bike be considered mountain biking 15 years ago? In the truth, riding MTB's on a dirtjump is a form of dirtjumping. No real need to over think it....in my mind, DJers and urban riders are just people who like BMX but the bikes are too small for their liking, or they like the MTB croud more.

and Kona, in turn....you bike doesnt really look like a DJ or urban bike, more like a FR HT. If it was a DJ bike, id call it a wannabe BMX bike..like I do with all.

I drive from the sticks into town to ride what we call "street". I ride "street" on a mtnbike,so I see it as a type of mtnbiking.I dont really care what anyone calls it, I call it FUN!!

I am new to the sport but I imagine old xc as being way more technical than todays. I watch todays wc races and wonder why they bother using mtbikes. All mountain encompasses everything 'mountain biking' should be. Long climbs, technical descents and still strong enough to take a beating.

Xc has gone the way of light instead of durable imo, which made it more racing instead of riding :)

Good observations, that's pretty much exactly the way it is these days. All mountain is what most of us who ride the trails do on a regular basis while XC seems to be trending more and more towards the race scene. It's all good though as long as you're pedaling a bike.

As for the rest of this argument, I knew bringing this up would get some varied responses and even expected some people to take it personally; I guess that's just the way things go when you opine that someone isn't a member of a class they believe themselves to be in.

Ultimately I don't care what you ride or where as long as you're cool, show respect and do what you can to further the cycling cause. Peas...


...and carrots.

I have this super fit, slightly tweaked in the head friend who sometimes goes on 20 mile trail rides with us on a 24" BMX cruiser. He keeps up okay on the singletrack and hauls ass on the downhills, pushing a 44-16. Now that may not be a "mountain bike," but the fact that he's there, going balls to the wall, embodies the spirit of mountain biking that I embrace.

You can hash it out all you like here, but at the end of the day, if your ride has 26" wheels, fat tires, and burly construction, the average person will call it a "mountain bike." The rest is just http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/pinit/jack.gif.

Actually...dirtjumping is just that, dirtjumping. Its dirtjumping on a BMX bike, its dirtjumping on a MTB. People classify things by what they ride them on, not by what they actually are. The real question should be, would urban riding on a mountain bike be considered mountain biking 15 years ago? In the truth, riding MTB's on a dirtjump is a form of dirtjumping. No real need to over think it....in my mind, DJers and urban riders are just people who like BMX but the bikes are too small for their liking, or they like the MTB croud more.

and Kona, in turn....you bike doesnt really look like a DJ or urban bike, more like a FR HT. If it was a DJ bike, id call it a wannabe BMX bike..like I do with all.


Thanks, since I use it for everything.

People like you are hilarious. You take this kind of stuff very personally and it's people like you that screw politics, foreign relations, normal conversation up for the rest of us every day.
:roflmao: You're one to talk.

DJing bikes have pretty much only one thing in comon with Bmx bikes (other than the fact that they are both bikes, lol), they both have "smaller" frames.



As a matter of fact, I would consider DH, free ride, XC, all mountain, etc mountain biking because they all have one thing in common: nature and wilderness; something that is conspicuously lacking from the DJ/urban side of things.

What if I chose to ride through a wooded park in the middle of the city along a road? One could hop railings and such other things and still be in the wilderness.

Does it really matter? I mean as long as you are having fun at it, who should judge?

http://img216.exs.cx/img216/603/thepostiwanted6rt.jpg

See I use to have some of the same thoughts as CrankOC. I just got finished taking a course in dirversity. I learned that diversity is what keeps the ball rolling and promotes change and new ideas. I also learned that you need to walk a mile in someones shoes. No one has the right to take away MTBing from someone who lives in a big city, etc. They don't have any trails in their area so they ride "street". If I didn't have local trails I would be doing exactly what they are, and I would call it MTBing.

First of all, Raiyn, I disagree with you. I don't think CranxOC is a troll. He's ignited a debate, argued his points well and defended them, been mature and all without namecalling.

Secondly, I think the term "Mountain Biking" is the problem. It's a misnomer for what we do. I don't think there is one "correct" term for what we do, other than "Cycling". It's all about Classifications and sub-sub-sub-sub-classifications. And really, who cares what you call it, as long as you are doing it.

I would call what I do, "Dirt Biking" but since the MXers already commandeered that term, we started using the term Mountain Biking, since it was "catchy".

What I'm saying is that you can't put limits or specifics on what Mountain Biking really is. Why? Because it encompasses too many different styles of riding.

i.e. To say DJing isn't Mountain Biking is akin to saying Trials (not TRAILS) isn't Mountain Biking either.

i.e., you can't limit it to a 26" wheel. What about the trend on some FR bikes to go to a 24" wheel. What about the 29" trend.

i.e. I live in Florida, we don't have mountains, but some of the trails down here will kick your arse in technicality. BIKE magazine was down here with Wade Simmons and Dangerous Dan riding some of our better know FR trails and were IMPRESSED! Wait a couple months for the article. Also, people in Kansas and other places without mountain make the most of the terrain they have. Are they/we not mountain bikers?

i.e. The comment that a DJ looks and acts more like a BMX bike has credibility to me, and I agree. However, I think that it doesn't really matter. Who's to say that jumping on a bike is strictly BMX? I try to jump off anything I can when I ride. Am I BMXing? No!

Really guys, it's an issue of semantics and an argument with NO winner. I think that a DJ bike is more closely related to a BMX bike than a traditional mountain bike, but it's more closely related to the traditional mountain bike than some of the current crop of DH rigs.

Remember, when Mountain Biking was first popularized, there was a trend to call them ATB (All Terrain Bikes), I always thought that this was more appropriate, but wasn't "catchy" enough and got dropped. That's really what these bikes are "ALL TERRAIN".

Call it what you want, classify it how you want, let's discuss it over a beer, after a long ride, or a DJ session, and sitting around a campfire.

See I use to have some of the same thoughts as CrankOC. I just got finished taking a course in dirversity. I learned that diversity is what keeps the ball rolling and promotes change and new ideas. I also learned that you need to walk a mile in someones shoes. No one has the right to take away MTBing from someone who lives in a big city, etc. They don't have any trails in their area so they ride "street". If I didn't have local trails I would be doing exactly what they are, and I would call it MTBing.
Feltup, is that really you? :)

First of all, Raiyn, I disagree with you. I don't think CranxOC is a troll. He's ignited a debate, argued his points well and defended them, been mature and all without namecalling.

Read his other posts

Who cares! we all ride bikes why does every one have to lable everything? what's a cyclo-cross bike.
Get over it.
I'm with this guy...

Ok so I will bring this back up for the guy that mentiond Trek and Specialized calling bikes MTBs that are used for DJing and urban. Giant, the largest maker of bicycles inthe world, has given them their own group. STP or Street/Trail/Park (http://www.giant-bicycle.com/us/030.000.000/030.000.000.asp?range=177) They are under their Mountain catagory though so go figure.

Again I will say it, I don't care what you ride or what you call it. I don't call it mountain biking if you are in a city or on a man made jump in some guy's yard. You Mountain bike in the mountains. :D

polls suck! just go ride call it whatever you want as long as your'e having fun

:roflmao: You're one to talk.

DJing bikes have pretty much only one thing in comon with Bmx bikes (other than the fact that they are both bikes, lol), they both have "smaller" frames.




What if I chose to ride through a wooded park in the middle of the city along a road? One could hop railings and such other things and still be in the wilderness.

Actually, they have platform pedals, low seatposts and single, rim brakes so they have a few mor things in common than you have observed. In fact, they have about as much in common with BMX rides as they do MTBs; those are just the facts.

Read his other posts

I'm not sure what you're problem is, I've simply put forth an argument and defended my position. I haven't called anyone names, I haven't bashed anyone's "beliefs" and I haven't done anything that would merit you, or anyone else, taking any of this personally. This is a strictly philosophical argument that cannot have a winner it can only have points of view; just like politics.

*On a tangent here* You see, this is one of the great problems this country has: people who take their views on X and hold them as dogma when, ultimately, none of it really matters. For whatever reason, a vast majority of the American population feels that if they believe one thing they have to so firmly entrench themselves in that position as to never see the merits of the other side's arguments thus causing the asinine polarization we see in this country and beyond today. Regardless of whether you're a Republican or Democrat, American or French, XC or DJer it doesn't really matter; we should be able to have spirited debate about ones topic of choice without people (like Raiyn and KonaRider) accusing the person who is posing the argument of being (fill in your favorite appropriate derogatory term here.) Debate is fun until you get people who are altogether too sensitive to the topic. Basically, what I'm saying is: GET OVER IT!
:rolleyes:

As I read and re-read this whole thread, I must say I agree with you regarding the "GET OVER IT"

This is another one of those Sram v. Shimano arguments. There is no right or wrong, but perspectives.

I actually think that DJing IS mountain biking, but I can see your point. I don't hate you or think you're stupid. I just disagree.

As I read and re-read this whole thread, I must say I agree with you regarding the "GET OVER IT"

This is another one of those Sram v. Shimano arguments. There is no right or wrong, but perspectives.

I actually think that DJing IS mountain biking, but I can see your point. I don't hate you or think you're stupid. I just disagree.

Exactly. While our opinions diiffer, in this case, both are equally valid and therefore there's no reason for anyone to be sensitive about the subject. Ultimately I suppose this issue comes down to one of maturity.