Bicycle Mechanics - Unusual lacing for wheels

I'm about to venture on building a wheelset for my mtb. Basicaly for xc riding so does not need to be bulletproof.. This is a second wheelset for the bike, my current one consists of Hope hubs laced to velocity cliffhanger rims very strong wheelset. This project is more for fun and experience building wheels then anything else. Any ever do anything other then the standard 3 cross or 2 cross lacing pattern? And what has you're experience been with it.

On driveside rear, you pretty much have to do 2, 3, or 4 cross to handle the drive torque. With disc brakes, it is the same thing. If you have rim brakes, you can do radial in front, and on the left side rear. It looks cool. I have a front wheel built this way, and I have not had any trouble with it. It does increase the probability of a hub flange failure, but it is probably OK.

http://sheldonbrown.com/power_wheel.html

I would avoid a radial front wheel unless you find truing to be meditative and relaxing and are looking to do it more often.

-s

i dont know why people using radial lacing. asside from having no advantages worth mentioning, it voids your warranty on just about every hub. These tangent patterns are so popular for a reason

For xc I like a radial laced front wheel. I've never had a problem keeping one true, but I don't really do any drops or jumps. I like the handling characteristics of a radial wheel, I think they're stiffer.

Go three-cross on both sides, front and rear, with as many spokes as available hubs and rims permit.

I have radial lacing on both my track bikes.. and one road bike. They stay true very well. I know on a mtb it is a different story though since they go through alot more stress. I'm just curiosu what everyones experience has been.. probably go with standard 3 cross, but I could always do a crows foot design and redo it later as standard 3 cross if I don't like it..

quote from sheldon browns site:
"Bicycle folklore has it that radial-spoked wheels give a "harsh" ride, because the shorter spokes are less "stretchy" than the longer spokes used in semi-tangent wheels. This is hooey!"

and i agree. The only advantage worth mentioning with readial lacing is that it is easy to build, but regular crossing patterns are not that hard either. A good wheel should be stiff regardless. The geometry in 3 cross is excellent

one more thing, you might want to look at a post i started when i was getting into this for my first time, i too was interested in having an unusual pattern
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=72763&highlight=Lacing+pattern+front+wheel

The Threecross is hard to beat. It will give you a strong wheel that also resists torque loads well. I have built just about every silly ass pattern there is and it is all for looks. Well,there is a very slight aero advantage for radial but it is hard on the hubs. Besides easy lacing, who wants that?

Radial has not been shown to be more aero. It's an old wrench's tale.

well they say it has a very tiny advantages aerodynamically. I do not believe it has any effect that we will notice though. Companies probably do it becuase its easier to build and it looks cool, and if a respected company does it they can call it a new fashion.

Go three-cross on both sides, front and rear, with as many spokes as available hubs and rims permit.

My thoughts, exactly.

Doc

History is on the side of three cross lacing.

Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that the guys who ask the questions about unusual wheel laceing patterns are preparing to build their first or second wheelset and the people who answer the questions usually recommend 3-cross wheels?

Is it just me or does it seem to anyone else that the guys who ask the questions about unusual wheel laceing patterns are preparing to build their first or second wheelset and the people who answer the questions usually recommend 3-cross wheels?

No. It's a consistant pattern.

its not just you. I did the same, when you build for your first time you want to explore, be different. In general it seems that folks who are more seasoned with wheel building settle down and agree 3 cross is king. Its a very strong, suitable shape. Theres so much information on it, i think the fact that its old kind of bugs some people.

Said by a roadster guy at the White Front Saloon in Speedway, Indiana many years ago: "State of the art don't win races; it a pain in the......" I interpreted that to mean stick with the proven and let someone else experiment.

Doc

In one of ther road rags a while back all the T-Mobile bikes were lined up against the team wagon during a race. Every one had conventional threecross wheels front and rear.

its not just you. I did the same, when you build for your first time you want to explore, be different. In general it seems that folks who are more seasoned with wheel building settle down and agree 3 cross is king. Its a very strong, suitable shape.

Yep, when I started building wheels, I got into all that stuff: crows foot pattern, TWISTED spokes, radial/4x wheels.

In many cases, I ended up rebuilding the wheels 3x.

Now, I recommend nothing else - not worth the rebuild.

nope, its not worth the rebuild at all. I was so close to trying crows foot, thank god somebody on this forum talked me into 3 cross ebcause i would have been -70 dollars to pay for the spokes to do the rebuild :). I personally am a fan of good old 32h 3 cross. I believe that with 32h you can have lighter rims than some of these wheels you see with so few spokes. Like gerd schraner says, you need heavier rims to counter the lower spoke count. And since the farther the weight is from the hub, the more it affects us, i dont believe in it. Plus its strong, so the classic still wins :)

although i will say, i might try doing half radial lacing on my rear wheel when i get around to another build. Perhaps, perhaps not.

although i will say, i might try doing half radial lacing on my rear wheel when i get around to another build. Perhaps, perhaps not.
Better you than me.

I'll see if I can get a pic of the wheels I built after I attended the USCF Mechanic Clinic in Colorado Springs back in 1990. Whenever I ride them, people ask if I crashed recently.

I should probably mention what's unusual about them.

The front is a 3x with a single twist, the rear is a 3x with double twist. It's kinda hard to explain, that's why I want to get pics of them. I'll have to dig them out of storage.

I got pics of the front wheel (the rear will take more time).

Sorry for the crappy quality.

Like I said in the above post, the front has a single twist, the rear has a double twist. The rear is extremely solid. I've never had any issues with it. The front is kinda creaky, but has also given me no problems.

No. It's a consistant pattern.
Didn't anyone get the punch line here?

It was the irony I missed :)

A double twisty pattern actually seems to hold up pretty well altho it seems to serve no real purpose. My wife likes the look, two cross is the prettiest, so I have done it several time. I think my front fixed wheel is a one cross full twisty, looks good and has lasted several years(OK the last year and a half was hanging on the wall, but it still looked good :)

The front is a 3x with a single twist, the rear is a 3x with double twist. It's kinda hard to explain, that's why I want to get pics of them. I'll have to dig them out of storage.

So how do you figure out what length spoke to use? If I built up a set for personal use would I be required to change my screen name?

I have found that you only need to add a mm to the normal spoke length,

I have found that you only need to add a mm to the normal spoke length,

Thanks, I think. I was going to guess about 1 or 2mm. You know what you've done to me now. I have a spare set of road wheels hanging in my shop that I'll probably never use otherwise, sounds like an interesting, though totally useless, afternoon project.

When you say double twist, you mean that two spokes are twisted twice around each other? -As opposed to double twist meaning: two spokes get one twist, then split and each gets a second twist around a third and fourth spoke.

It was the irony I missed :)

A double twisty pattern actually seems to hold up pretty well altho it seems to serve no real purpose. My wife likes the look, two cross is the prettiest, so I have done it several time. I think my front fixed wheel is a one cross full twisty, looks good and has lasted several years(OK the last year and a half was hanging on the wall, but it still looked good :)

I think that I've figured out the trick. It looks to me like a double twist would be a lot harder to do. After looking at my wheels, I can see how a 2-cross would look prettier but that would mean completely rebuilding the wheels with new spokes (I am a 3-cross retro grouch after all). Seems like a lot of effort for the really pretty limited benefit. If I've got some 14/15 gauge spokes in the right lengths I'll probably try it.

look in the fixed gear picture sticky for cool lacing.

It's been 14+ years since I built the wheels, but I remember having to add a mm or two to the length to facilitate the twist. The reason the front is a single twist is because the spokes were too short to do two twists.

By single twist I mean the spokes wrap 180° around each other. A double twist would be 360°. With the single twist, the spoke ends up going into the nipple that normally connects with the spoke it would have crossed. With a double twist, the spokes continue to their normal holes.

The only 'advantage' I found was cool looking wheels.

Very interesting, but I don't think I want to try it. Thanks for the pictures.

Al

I will do things just for enertainment value and proof of concept.. even if it is already proven.. no good reason at all. I do it more often with computers then my bikes on average though. In process of setting up a PBX with some VOIP phones.. I have no use for it or any real reason to set it up.. other then just for fun, learn and pass time. I do agree with everyone standard 3 cross is best way to go.. twisting sounds like fun hmmm maybe we'll see. It's all for cosmetics no question about that, I like radial lacing for that reason, I don't think it makes me any faster.. I can get away with it to since I'm not tall and fairly thin.. on my road/track bikes atleast.