"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Tyler Hamilton's

Court Hearing begins today, I hope he confesses.....


On a directly related note, although one that know one seems to care about. Santiago Perez, his Phonak teamate, was suspeded for 2 years yesterday.

Court Hearing begins today, I hope he confesses.....


I'd respect him so much more if he did. I would have even more if he had stepped up at the beginning and said, "Yeah I did it, it was wrong, I'm sorry to the cycling community." And taken his punishment.

That's one thing that's lacking in much of our society- Honor and Personal Responsibility. If you screw up, man up and admit it and take your punishment then come back stronger and better from it.

[QUOTE=Smoothie104]Court Hearing begins today, I hope he confesses.....
[QUOTE]

I'd respect him so much more if he did. I would have even more if he had stepped up at the beginning and said, "Yeah I did it, it was wrong, I'm sorry to the cycling community." And taken his punishment.

That's one thing that's lacking in much of our society- Honor and Personal Responsibility. If you screw up, man up and admit it and take your punishment then come back stronger and better from it.

So I guess he's guilty before the court hearing even starts? You know he could be telling the truth, stranger things have happened.

Actually, it would be nice if it turned out the whole thing was a big mistake. "Sorry...our new testing procedure is faulty...you and your team mate were accused by mistake".

But, yes, if he is guilty, he ought to tell the truth. And, he ought to tell the truth about every other form of drug abuse, blood transfusions, EPO, HGH...lay out everything he knows. About himself. And about any active rider that Tyler knows from personal observation has been cheating.

Telling the truth might end his racing career, but might help the effort to clean up the sport. And earn him back the respect that his courage on his bike had won for him.

On a directly related note, although one that know one seems to care about. Santiago Perez, his Phonak teamate, was suspeded for 2 years yesterday.

Yes no one cares becauses he's not AMERICAN.

http://www.edugraphics.net/gc-american/symbols/posters/gc110-pc.jpg

But, yes, if he is guilty, he ought to tell the truth. And, he ought to tell the truth about every other form of drug abuse, blood transfusions, EPO, HGH...lay out everything he knows. About himself. And about any active rider that Tyler knows from personal observation has been cheating.

Telling the truth might end his racing career, but might help the effort to clean up the sport. And earn him back the respect that his courage on his bike had won for him.

I totally agree! One of the things about this whole Jose Canseco thing the constant refference by the media wags that he's a rat. So if your teamate is cheating and you tell someone you are a bad person. What kind of message does that send to kid coming up through the ranks? The only way professional sport is going to rid itself of drugs is from the inside. The player (riders) need to speak out and tell the truth. Unfortunately I believe these guys want to keep the drugs in the sport becuase they like how it makes them feel.

In this months CycleSport Peter Winnin makes a pretty compelling case for the legalization of most drugs. His claim is that for the most part the list of banned substances do nothing to enhance your performance. He does however say the EPO should be banned as it does enhance a riders ability to perform. He states that the arrival of EPO in the late 80's and early 90's completely changed the peleton. This also give some creadence to LeMonds gripe about how the arrival of EPO drove him out of the sport.

Did anyone think that about David Miller when he confessed? Granted he was pretty much caught red-handed, but he didn't put up much of a fight. Having said that, I can't say that I respected Miller for rolling over any more than I would have respected him for arguing his innocence. It's just plain pathetic no matter how you look at it ... same goes for Tyler.

-mark

How about we let Tyler plead his case before we throw the ol' guilty until proven innocent book at him?

Did anyone think that about David Miller when he confessed? Granted he was pretty much caught red-handed, but he didn't put up much of a fight. Having said that, I can't say that I respected Miller for rolling over any more than I would have respected him for arguing his innocence. It's just plain pathetic no matter how you look at it ... same goes for Tyler.

-mark

Well good ole David was pretty adiment that he was drug free untill they caught him. During the whole Cofidas affair he claimed that he had no part in it. Then when caught and confronted with overwhelming evidence he confessed. Not as bad as Veranque but still he's no saint.

I still think he has Down syndrome. Santi too.

Google's "news" search function led to a good article at the Denverpost.com. The hearing is being held in Denver, and it looks as if the Denver paper will cover the hearing closely.

Tyler's lawyer has done a good job of getting the cycling press to talk about this as being "a brand new test...new procedures....new technology".

The Denver Post reports that this technology is used in hospitals every day for organ transplants, and other medical procedures. This is a testing process with a long history, and is highly accurate when correctly used.

Based on the likelihood that the testing process and "science" will be shown to be reliable, Tyler's best chance might be to argue that his samples got switched with another rider, or that someone tampered with his samples. That argument would be more convincing if he had failed one test in one country, rather than failing three tests in two countries. That's a lot of sample switching, and a lot of tampering.


One story reported that his team spent $800,000 researching ways the test might have been faulty. After spending all of that money, they fired Hamilton...so what did their $800,000 in research tell them about the chances of a faulty test?

I don't think the hearing will resolve anything. If he is found "guilty", Tyler is likely to continue to say "I wuz framed", and his wife, family, friends, and fans will believe him or pretend to believe him. Like Barry Bonds, if it is proven that he cheated, he could become a "professional victim" and whine about the unfairness of it all, blame the press, blame his team, and then say "There is no proof that using blood transfusions affected the outcome of any race".

One story reported that his team spent $800,000 researcing ways the test might have been faulty. After spending all of that money, they fired Hamilton...so what did their $800,000 in research tell them about the chances of a faulty test?


Not quite, Hamilton was put on suspension pending the outcome of his case. If convicted, he WILL be fired.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6992.0.html

LINK TO THE DENVER POST ARTICLE:
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~76~2734449,00.html

My LBS has a Phonak jersey that's been there forever. I'm tempted to buy it and see what kind of feedback I get wearing it around town. Sort of a conversation piece.

Man thats how that little guy was amazing at Time Trialing :rolleyes:

any way, the only thing i liked about him was his attitude in the 03 TDF, when he won that stage i really thought that was cool, other than that I really dont like him!

and your from Wayland? Barring the recent doping this guy was a saint in the peleton, maybe even too nice.

Court Hearing begins today, I hope he confesses.....

What did you want him to confess, Smoothie 10-4? Or should I say, what do you know him to be guilty of and how do you know these things? Please enlighten us. :rolleyes:

So I guess he's guilty before the court hearing even starts? You know he could be telling the truth, stranger things have happened.
yeah! everyone knows he was attacked by a reverse vampire! ;)

and your from Wayland? Barring the recent doping this guy was a saint in the peleton, maybe even too nice.

Whats it got to do with wayland?

anyway, I can understand that i just had a bad feeling about him.

I still think he has Down syndrome. Santi too.

Hey, OJ Simpson was innocent
THamilton must be innocent too ;)

I'd respect him so much more if he did. I would have even more if he had stepped up at the beginning and said, "Yeah I did it, it was wrong, I'm sorry to the cycling community." And taken his punishment.

That's one thing that's lacking in much of our society- Honor and Personal Responsibility. If you screw up, man up and admit it and take your punishment then come back stronger and better from it.

David Millar did that and has been tarred and feathered in the cycling reviews. Millar will be back for 2006 Tour. But Felip Meurenghue(?) of Specialized -- former world Cup champion mountain biker. Don't think he's coming back anytime soon. Most never return to their past glories. Richard Virenque is an exception but he wasnt' too well liked in the pro peloton.

David Millar did that and has been tarred and feathered in the cycling reviews. Millar will be back for 2006 Tour. But Felip Meurenghue(?) of Specialized -- former world Cup champion mountain biker. Don't think he's coming back anytime soon. Most never return to their past glories. Richard Virenque is an exception but he wasnt' too well liked in the pro peloton.

David Millar did not fess up from the start. He only spilled his guts after the French police arrested him and found his stash. From the begining of the whole Cofidas affair he denied any involvement he only came clean after the arrest.

You guys do realize that there is a guy in jail, now, for extortion...who'd he extort? Phonak. Called twice just before both tests came back positive...the second one was that unless they paid up, a third rider would test positive.
hmmmmm.....

I'm thinking that unless you think wrestling's real and the moon shot's were faked, you'd await the facts...

I know a person who knows Tyler very well...from Massachusetts...HE thinks he's inocent.

I guess we will see....

Everyone that knows Tyler thinks he's innocent. I ride with his original club from time to time and talk with his first coach now and then, my boss is the guy who always interviewed Tyler on OLN's Road to the Tour. Hell if you went to a bike shop in MA for a week or two after the test results came out, you'd have thought that some died. They all think he's innocent. But all that means jack, the trial will help decide things one way or another.

okay... i'm going to ask the obvious question... does anyone really think that three positive tests and the fact that a teammate got busted for the same thing are just coincidence?

he might be legally innocent until proven guilty [i don't know what the usada presumption of innocence is] but it's pretty clear that he cheated.

as far as i'm concerned, that's okay. if he'd just admit it and face the music, i'd be all for giving the guy a second chance [after he served his suspension]. i think zulle, virenque and others redeemed themselves by doing their time and coming back. but his paranoid accusations and holier-than-all posturing is pretty unseemly.

be a man, tyler. give it up. it's getting sad.

All I can say is that if Horner ever gets caught juicing, I'm going to get well upset. I hope the dude scores some major wins this year. Tyler's got funky ears and that's just too damn suspicious to me.

So I guess he's guilty before the court hearing even starts? You know he could be telling the truth, stranger things have happened.

You're right. I shouldn't assume that he's guilty, but you have to admit, it doesn't look great right now. It's his word against physical, scientific blood tests. I hope he is telling the truth and that they say they blew the tests and that he's free and clean.

However; if he IS guilty, I would like to see him confess. It would be a pretty hefty blow to American pro cycling to have a big guy like Tyler get nailed like that.

I HOPE that he's innocent, but in the event that he's not I would appreciate him stepping up and confessing.

since we're getting all legalistic here...

hamilton is guilty. according to the rules, he was found guilty when he failed the doping tests. he is, according to the rules, a cheat. his hearing is analogous to an appeal. the presumption is that he is guilty and he has to prove his innocence.

so, just as a convicted murderer is presumed guilty unless he can present conclusive evidence that the conviction was in error, hamilton is dirty little cheater until he can prove that the doping tests were flawed.

this is not splitting hairs.

I still think he has Down syndrome. Santi too.


HAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks Devil, I had a good hearty belly laugh at that!!!!

okay... i'm going to ask the obvious question... does anyone really think that three positive tests and the fact that a teammate got busted for the same thing are just coincidence?


Ok, I'm not commenting on Tylers innocence or guilt. The only thing I can
argue for is the incorrect use of the test by UCI, WADA etc.
That is NOT to say that the test as used in hospitals is invalid. All I'm saying
is that I hold out the possiblity that the way the test was used by the anti doping
agencies may invalidate results.

Roadwarrior, hadn't heard that one before, its good.

Marty

since we're getting all legalistic here...

hamilton is guilty. according to the rules, he was found guilty when he failed the doping tests. he is, according to the rules, a cheat.
Hamilton tested positive. This does not mean he is guilty or that he was found guilty. It means he was found to have tested positive. Vasseur tested positive but was not guilty and was found innocent. Brandt tested positive but was not guilty of doping. These are just two prominent, recent cases, but are not by any means the only examples of athletes who have tested positive but were not guilty.



the presumption is that he is guilty and he has to prove his innocence.The presumption, for individuals who understand the vagaries of the testing process, is that he tested positive and has to prove that the testing was flawed or he was not doping.



so, just as a convicted murderer is presumed guilty unless he can present conclusive evidence that the conviction was in error, hamilton is dirty little cheater until he can prove that the doping tests were flawed.
I find it interesting that you "presume" guilt for a murderer but Hamilton "is" guilty.

I don't profess to knowing everything, nor do i follow every riders careers but here is my opinion. Please respond, particularly if I am incorrect. I would say IMO Tyler is gulity, from what i have seen and read. Until 2003 he was a relatively unknown rider, sure he was on Postal but hardly a superstar. Then BOOM! He exploded at like 31 or 32 years old. How many riders do that? I know that they say he was a late bloomer racing and should have a longer carreer, but come on going from a good rider to one of the best hints at something funny. Pulled of some nice wins, rode with a crack is his collar etc.... Then he gets tested, and his teammate too, they both come up positive. It would be nice to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. But if I were a Vulcan I would have to say it's would seem highly illogical. More fingers point to his being guilty that to his innocence.
I guess we'll see.

Hamilton tested positive. This does not mean he is guilty or that he was found guilty. It means he was found to have tested positive. Vasseur tested positive but was not guilty and was found innocent. Brandt tested positive but was not guilty of doping. These are just two prominent, recent cases, but are not by any means the only examples of athletes who have tested positive but were not guilty.


The presumption, for individuals who understand the vagaries of the testing process, is that he tested positive and has to prove that the testing was flawed or he was not doping.



I find it interesting that you "presume" guilt for a murderer but Hamilton "is" guilty.

Thank you. Great post.

Ok, I'm not commenting on Tylers innocence or guilt. The only thing I can
argue for is the incorrect use of the test by UCI, WADA etc.
That is NOT to say that the test as used in hospitals is invalid. All I'm saying
is that I hold out the possiblity that the way the test was used by the anti doping
agencies may invalidate results.

Roadwarrior, hadn't heard that one before, its good.

Marty

Urs Frueler actually got a text message from this guy that Hamilton was positive before it was announced, then another that another Phonak rider would be positive, and presto there goes Santi...then another that said unless they paid up another Phonak rider would go positive...so he went to the airport to pay, with cops in tow who picked the guy up outside the airport...
he is in prison awaiting trial for extortion, and if guilty faces 3 years....

Marty, my guess, with all due respect, is that the majority of the opinions here are cat V and IV riders who do not get or understand testing...
if I was still racing today, with all the places those tests go, I'd be scared to death every time I provided a sample.

And then there is the Roland Green suspension for not keeping up paperwork on his asthma inhaler that has a prohibited substance...as I understand it, it is an item he has used for some time, and it was simply a paperwork issue..six month suspension. It's pretty hard to take these guys seriously with stuff like this...howzabout a "warning"...

I find it interesting that you "presume" guilt for a murderer but Hamilton "is" guilty.
my mistake. i put it poorly. hamilton is guilty of doping the same way a convicted murderer is guilty of murder.

yeah! everyone knows he was attacked by a reverse vampire! ;)

the reverse vampires working with the saucer people mind you...

How about when Simoni tested positive for cocaine. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon saying that he must be using drugs. Well as it turned out...it was proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that Simoni had taken some cough drops which originated in south america and had traces of cocaine in them.

How about when Simoni tested positive for cocaine...
yeah... hamilton had someone else's blood in his body because of cough drops! :roflmao: :lol:

yeah... hamilton had someone else's blood in his body because of cough drops! :roflmao: :lol:

It's soooo obvious, I can't believe I hadn't thought of this before.

John Henderson, of the Denver Post, is attending the last day of testimony at the hearing today. His summary of the testimony given by both sides is likely to be posted at the Denverpost.com sometime late tonight.

I'd just like to say, that, just this once, I believe that an athlete is telling the truth. I hope Tyler is able to get the whole truth out in the open, clear his name, and start racing right away.

I don't profess to knowing everything, nor do i follow every riders careers but here is my opinion. Please respond, particularly if I am incorrect. I would say IMO Tyler is gulity, from what i have seen and read. Until 2003 he was a relatively unknown rider, sure he was on Postal but hardly a superstar. Then BOOM! He exploded at like 31 or 32 years old. How many riders do that? I know that they say he was a late bloomer racing and should have a longer carreer, but come on going from a good rider to one of the best hints at something funny. Pulled of some nice wins, rode with a crack is his collar etc.... Then he gets tested, and his teammate too, they both come up positive. It would be nice to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. But if I were a Vulcan I would have to say it's would seem highly illogical. More fingers point to his being guilty that to his innocence.
I guess we'll see.

I can see where you are comming from... My :rolleyes: question with this whole thing is, why don't they do a DNA test to prove that this is not Tyler's blood. This would answer the question of "is this another riders blood that got mixed or mis marked as TH's sample". I think the DNA test would clear alot of things up. I know it would not give the final answer,but I for one if I was TH and I demand one.... On the other hand if I was guilty I would not want the test.

I can see where you are comming from... My :rolleyes: question with this whole thing is, why don't they do a DNA test to prove that this is not Tyler's blood. This would answer the question of "is this another riders blood that got mixed or mis marked as TH's sample". I think the DNA test would clear alot of things up. I know it would not give the final answer,but I for one if I was TH and I demand one.... On the other hand if I was guilty I would not want the test.

Apparently a DNA test is not needed as this test is pretty diffinitive and has been used in hospitals for years. In my mind the only defense Tyler has to say that his samples were either misshandled or were tampered with. Just because this test is new to cylcing doen't make it a new test.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2004/blood_doping

Again, just because the test is reliable in hospitals does not
mean it's reliable when run by UCI labs etc.
I'm not saying he's guilty or not, just questioning the validity of the
test as run by UCI.

Marty

Again, just because the test is reliable in hospitals does not
mean it's reliable when run by UCI labs etc.
I'm not saying he's guilty or not, just questioning the validity of the
test as run by UCI.

Marty

No doubt the test could have been administered incorrectly, that would be one more defence. I don't think that they will get away with saying the test itself is inherently flawed though.

I can see where you are comming from... My :rolleyes: question with this whole thing is, why don't they do a DNA test to prove that this is not Tyler's blood. This would answer the question of "is this another riders blood that got mixed or mis marked as TH's sample". I think the DNA test would clear alot of things up. I know it would not give the final answer,but I for one if I was TH and I demand one.... On the other hand if I was guilty I would not want the test.

I may be wrong, but I read somewhere that asking for the DNA test is simply a PR trick, because the actual red cells don't contain DNA, other parts of the blood do, but not the red cells...

By coming forward and saying "WADA won't let us do a DNA test" makes them look like a victim.

I may be wrong, but I read somewhere that asking for the DNA test is simply a PR trick, because the actual red cells don't contain DNA, other parts of the blood do, but not the red cells...

By coming forward and saying "WADA won't let us do a DNA test" makes them look like a victim.

I will have to check that out...

John Henderson, of the Denver Post, is attending the last day of testimony at the hearing today. His summary of the testimony given by both sides is likely to be posted at the Denverpost.com sometime late tonight.

any new news from the hearing?


tommy

I may be wrong, but I read somewhere that asking for the DNA test is simply a PR trick, because the actual red cells don't contain DNA, other parts of the blood do, but not the red cells...

By coming forward and saying "WADA won't let us do a DNA test" makes them look like a victim.

DNA test would be moot anyway. Due the identity nature of the antigens and given the majority antigens in the blood of a doper would be that person's natural antigens, the majority antigens would still need match the subject. The exception in which a dna test could further distinguish from the antigen test would be for persons having an identical antigen makeup.

Well said!! After all, this is America where we champion the Inocent UNTIL proven guilty idea!!!

An UPDATE - of sorts:

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E76%257E2743624,00.html